He Is Dead

[Happy_Now]

HE died on FRIDAY
but HIS tomb is empty SATURDAY

Where is He???:Erm::Erm::Erm::Erm::Erm:

If you cant find HIM yet in your heart :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:
then HE is looking for you!:Cuckoo::Cuckoo::Cuckoo:

SUNDAY; JESUS is alive!!!
:BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy:

He died for us guys:Hellooo::Hellooo::Hellooo:
because He Loves us!!!:BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy:

Happy Easter SUNDAY!!!:D:D:D

[KeithD]

Actually, no recordings of the day/date this person died exist.

[aromulus]

Actually, no recordings of the day/date this person died exist.

Have you tried under "Eviction and repossessions"...???:Erm:

[Happy_Now]

Actually, no recordings of the day/date this person died exist.

:Erm::Erm::Erm::Erm:
i DONT want to argue:D:but i believe that JESUS is GOD:xxgrinning--00xx3:

I WILL not argue SIR because your name is double WIN::doh:doh:doh:

[KeithD]

Jesus is God's son is he not? If Jesus is also a God, then we have God's!

[keithAngel]

Jesus is God's son is he not? If Jesus is also a God, then we have God's!

Genises 3 22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever::rolleyes:

[Piamed]

Happy-Now, I have to say that the title of your thread seems particularly thoughtless given that for several weeks now, you have been posting a great deal about how upset you are that your husband is terminally ill. I'm now more unsure about the genuity of your actual situation!

[Mrs.JMajor]

:doh ,piamed i thought of what you though to be honest :NoNo::doh

[Pepe n Pilar]

Biblical proof that Jesus is God have a look at John chapter 1, verse 1. I.e. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" - Jesus is "The Word", ergo Jesus is God. Of course, the Catholics among us have always known this as the 'mystery' of the trinity.

Cheers!:)

[Sophie]

Happy-Now, I have to say that the title of your thread seems particularly thoughtless given that for several weeks now, you have been posting a great deal about how upset you are that your husband is terminally ill. I'm now more unsure about the genuity of your actual situation!

I guess i agree with you. Actually, i read about happy_now's posts before about her husband being terminally ill and i felt so much sympathy for her and when she said her hubby was ok after a few days when they went to the doctor, i felt so relieved and happy for her. So when i saw her thread earlier and it's entitled "He's dead", my heart raised a bit and i was in a hurry to read the details of her thread coz i thought it was her hubby. And when i saw the whole thread, i really did not find it funny. And as piamed says, its a bit thoughtless. Sorry happy_now, i don't mean to criticize or offend you. I'm just saying my opinion and expressing how i feel about this matter. No ofense meant :)

[irobot]

Irobot..." Sunny... Different From The Rest...":Britain:

Happy Easter Everyone...

Perhaps not the best heading for a link...but lets not get too heavy, were all friends... phil...

[aposhark]

So, JESUS is alive!!!

Where is he then?

We had a big thread about religion before and many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense.

http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php?t=10855&highlight=religion

Why persist? It baffles me.

[irobot]

Irobot..." Sunny... Different From The Rest..."

More wars been Started over religion than any thing...

So,..why don`t we all just leave that can of worms for another day and just except we are all have a different up bringing and Countries of origin with different beliefs or it will all kick off won`t it.. ps...Happy Easter Every Bunny......Phil...

[LEAHnew]

HE died on FRIDAY
but HIS tomb is empty SATURDAY

Where is He???:Erm::Erm::Erm::Erm::Erm:

If you cant find HIM yet in your heart :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:
then HE is looking for you!:Cuckoo::Cuckoo::Cuckoo:

SUNDAY; JESUS is alive!!!
:BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy:

He died for us guys:Hellooo::Hellooo::Hellooo:
because He Loves us!!!:BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy::BouncyHappy:

Happy Easter SUNDAY!!!:D:D:D


:doh:NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:

[Piamed]

So, JESUS is alive!!!

Where is he then?

We had a big thread about religion before and many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense.What you omit to mention though my friend, is that most people on this forum, in particular the wives of many of the men on here, DO believe in God. The manner in which SOME (not all) non-believers dismiss what they cannot comprehend or falsify with anything other than superficial, inconsistent and supercilious statements is disappointing.

We should ALL be aware of any tendencies towards bigotry we may exhibit. This applies in general but surely not least of all when undermining without love and whilst exhibiting everything other than constructive discourse, anything the ones we profess to love, believe in.

As usual, just my thoughts on this matter. I wholly respect the views of others, especially when alternate to my own and love respectful debate but believe we should all be polite and seek to edify others in the process and ultimately leave people feeling good about themselves, not otherwise.

I'm certain Happy_Now regrets the approach she took in entitling this thread as she did; as far as i'm concerned we should leave it like that. Love to all.

Peace!!!!!!!

[aromulus]

Calm down, calm down, eh.....:rolleyes:

[Happy_Now]

Im sorry guys if i make u angry. It is not my mean.Really feel sorry for the outcome.. I just follow some thread like (i will leave filipino uk, You missed it) that inside it it was only a joke.,, I thought of it that you will open it emmidiately and you will find it funny. But you are devastated to find out my husband is not the one who died.

Second; I thought this forum is Godly site because when i was down many of you guys encourage me to keep on trusting God which makes me really strong through only to your words. And many of you bealive about EASTER week so i post my thread Easter Sunday which that day Jesus arise from dead ....Also, i just from the church and the message is still on my heart... Happy inside that i have Jesus!

Now i have a heavy heart... Broken_hearted once again... i was wrong.

Am i wrong to believe that this site is not Godly?

Lastly, i will ask you guys to forgive me to my title; but i wll not regret posting what is inside... May the good Lord bless you!

[Happy_Now]

:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

[aromulus]

Don't worry Ate.

People have different opinions about all sorts of different things, and faith or religion is the one that divide them the most.
I don't see anything wrong in posting what you believe in, lots of other forumers share your beliefs, me too, to a certain extent.

The title, tho, I reckon was ill chosen, especially after your original postings, as Toks mentioned.
In this I agree with him.
If you pm me, with an alternative heading, I will try to edit the title for you.
The site is great, and although we have non-catholics on board, we are all christians of some description or the other.
An Italian renaissance artist once said that "religion is like pasta, you have so many different sauces to go with it".....:D
So cheer up, and keep posting.

[KeithD]

Biblical proof that Jesus is God have a look at John chapter 1, verse 1. I.e. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" - Jesus is "The Word", ergo Jesus is God. Of course, the Catholics among us have always known this as the 'mystery' of the trinity.

Cheers!:)
I think you'll find that book isn't classed as proof! :doh

Anyway, only one overiding force that created everything that ever was, is, and will be, Nature. :xxgrinning--00xx3:


Am i wrong to believe that this site is not Godly?
This is a Filipino/a - UK relationship help site, nothing to do with mythical stories, unless you include Joe being a closet scouser!! :)

[joebloggs]

unless you include Joe being a closet scouser!! :)[/COLOR]

the only closet scouser on here is you, living in wales, and deserting your homeland :doh how could you :NoNo:

each to their own, but i wonder why so many good people who believe in god have suffered so much, while some bad people haven't :Erm:

[Piamed]

...but I wonder why so many good people who believe in God have suffered so much, while some bad people haven't :Erm:An excellent and juicy question; it really is :xxgrinning--00xx3:. I have come to look forward to and totally respect your responses. They reveal so much about you as a man.:)

I don't want to hijack this thread but believe that it is the sort of question that you and I, plus others who respect other people's opinions, could discuss enjoyably over a cold one. I look forward to that day. All the best amigo. You're a choice cut!!!!!!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

An excellent and juicy question; it really is :xxgrinning--00xx3:. I have come to look forward to and totally respect your responses. They reveal so much about you as a man.:)

I don't want to hijack this thread but believe that it is the sort of question that you and I, plus others who respect other people's opinions, could discuss enjoyably over a cold one. I look forward to that day. All the best amigo. You're a choice cut!!!!!!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

your making me :icon_lol: toks, as little joe is soaking the room with his bubble making machine :doh, but then you've got all this to come :doh

that's what makes me wonder about if god exists, i have known good people who never did anyone wrong (some believed in god/some didn't) they had a hard life, and I've come across a few low-lifers who seem to have had a good life.. cannot understand why god, if god exists, sits back and lets it happen..

yes hi-jacked thread.. :icon_lol: sorry :doh

am going cleaning up squashed pringles and bubble mixture :icon_lol:

[adam&chryss]

Thats what I like about this forum, different opinions without anybody getting offended.
People can have whichever beleifs they have as long as they dont force it upon anybody, thats how I see it anyway.
I`m just glad to have another day off work!

[aposhark]

The site is great, and although we have non-catholics on board, we are all christians of some description or the other.


Erm, WHAT?

all christians?

Don't think so........

[Sophie]

Im sorry guys if i make u angry. It is not my mean.Really feel sorry for the outcome.. I just follow some thread like (i will leave filipino uk, You missed it) that inside it it was only a joke.,, I thought of it that you will open it emmidiately and you will find it funny. But you are devastated to find out my husband is not the one who died

Hi Happy_Now :) I apologize if i've been too blatant last night with my personal thoughts about your thread heading. It's just that when i heard about your hubby's terminal illness before, i really had genuine sympathy for you coz if that happens to my hubby, i won't be able to bear it. And just the mere thought of it kills me. And i've lost my dad few years back and my eldest sister i'm closest to (coz i'm the youngest) 2 years ago. And it was devastating. That's why i did not find it funny - the heading of your thread. I've lost already a few of my loved ones, so i really take sickness and death seriously, that's why i got carried away. But i know you mean well and you just wanted to make a joke. Sorry if i offended or hurt you in any way. Also i just want to correct and clear out what you said that "we are devastated to find out your husband is not the one who died". On the contrary, i'm glad its not you're hubby you're talking about in the title of your thread. I felt relieved its not your hubby who died. I just thought it was a strange thread heading/title considering you hubby's terminal illness before. So i guess i can say is "You got me there huh" :D:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[aposhark]

What you omit to mention though my friend, is that most people on this forum, in particular the wives of many of the men on here, DO believe in God. The manner in which SOME (not all) non-believers dismiss what they cannot comprehend or falsify with anything other than superficial, inconsistent and supercilious statements is disappointing.
Peace!!!!!!!

Here we go again.....

I comprehend that I live in a country where religion is not important to millions and these millions don't go around putting leaflets through people's doors telling them about atheism.
They don't knock on peoples' doors asking others to join non-believers either.
They don't stand on street corners shouting out utter nonsense either.

Belief without proof is superficial, inconsistent and has supercilious statements, and is ALWAYS disappointing.
It has no bearing on the real world that most people in the UK live in.
The Philippines has a strong church. That is their right, but you know that in the UK the church is a spent force and thankfully is disappearing into oblivion where it belongs.

I could go on and on about most people I know and have met in the UK, who never think about the church and laugh at the whole idea of why some people in Italy a long time ago thought up some nonsense that only seeks to convert people through guilt trips.

Do something bad, go to confessional and then be absolved with 3 hail Marys.... It beggars belief.

Peace!!!! ???? Far better to never mention God, Jesus or any other religious ideology, THAT is "Peace"

Piamed, I always enjoy and respect your non-religious comments.
I wish you and others would just keep all ideas about religion off this forum.
It's so boring and devisive.

[Sophie]

Lastly, i will ask you guys to forgive me to my title; but i wll not regret posting what is inside... May the good Lord bless you!

I agree with you Happy_Now, it's just an inappropriate title, but you don't have to regret nor apologize for the CONTENT of your thread and what's the message inside. I believe in God as much as you do. So don't be bummed about other people's opinion on religion and faith. Some of us believe in God, others don't. It's ok, that doesn't mean we can't all get along and be friends. We just have to respect each other's individual belief's and views on things - including religion.

[aposhark]

I think you'll find that book isn't classed as proof! :doh

Anyway, only one overiding force that created everything that ever was, is, and will be, Nature. :xxgrinning--00xx3:


This is a Filipino/a - UK relationship help site, nothing to do with mythical stories, unless you include Joe being a closet scouser!! :)

100% correct, let's keep religion out of everything where it belongs.

[walesrob]

Cup of tea anyone? :peepwall:

[joebloggs]

100% correct, let's keep religion out of everything where it belongs.

did your mom force you to goto church to aposhark :D

just don't let it bother you, take it easy :xxgrinning--00xx3:


unlike most on here I've been made to be aware of more than 1 religion , i was forced into going to a church of England school, dad was catholic but never forced his views on us, and my mom who was a Jehovah witness but made us go to the meetings. now I'm free of all, and as for now little Joe, like the Eskimos will be innocent and free of religion for as long as possible or until he decides his own faith and not carry the guilt of others, or having to go to confession :rolleyes:

[kimmi]

Cup of tea anyone? :peepwall:

can I join u Mod? with one sugar pls.:ARsurrender:

[aromulus]

Ok, ok, I am all for live and let live....

So my suggestion would be very easy and understandable by all and sundry....

We have lots of people on the forum that rightly or wrongly believe and have views in a certain faith, and obviously like to talk and share that with each other.

So if anybody else that doesn't share in those views would refrain from posting on the threads would be of great help.
Nobody is making you to...
Join in if you wish, but don't criticize because it could make some posters upset.

Only a couple of centavos worth....

[joebloggs]

[SIZE=4]Only a couple of centavos worth....

you should be using euro cents or pennies dom :doh

and you know where you can put your euros :action-smiley-081:


:icon_lol:

time to feed the kids :doh

[Alan]

I thought Elvis was God!!

Al.:)

[aposhark]

Ok, ok, I am all for live and let live....

So my suggestion would be very easy and understandable by all and sundry....

We have lots of people on the forum that rightly or wrongly believe and have views in a certain faith, and obviously like to talk and share that with each other.

So if anybody else that doesn't share in those views would refrain from posting on the threads would be of great help.
Nobody is making you to...
Join in if you wish, but don't criticize because it could make some posters upset.

Only a couple of centavos worth....

OK Dom,
I am a little baffled now.

So is right for people to talk about religion, and not right for other people who do not believe to ask them to stop?

Now I know you are a moderator, as are walesrob and the boss of course.
You three have differing views about this, that is the nature of freedom and self-expression.
Moderation should be to allow free comments and thoughts from everyone, shouldn't it?
If religion is constantly mentioned without rebuttal, then they have their moment in the sun.
Everybody has free speech and that is why this forum works.
To silence anyone smacks of censorship to me.

I would like to know why I or anyone else is not allowed to dispute what Keith calls "mythical stories".

I am offended when religion is mentioned because in my life I have seen religion cause more pain and grief than any other single thing.
I have worked in 42 countries and been to 30 others too, and the only constant source of problems is the firmly set beliefs of all people of religion to dismiss other religions without proper discourse, and furthermore to even kill for these "correct" beliefs.
If non-believers are silenced, there is less hope that zealots curb their bigotry.


Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

[KeithD]

Cup of tea anyone? :peepwall:

....and God created sheep for the Welsh :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[walesrob]

....and God created sheep for the Welsh :xxgrinning--00xx3:

and Ford created cars for you to nick hubcaps :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[aromulus]

OK Dom,
I am a little baffled now.

.

No need to be baffled, mate.

Everyone is entitled to views and opinions, the quip and the joke and openess of debate.

I respect your views on being an atheist, it is your right to do so.
And my post wasn't directed at you personally, but at people in general that criticize others beliefs and ridicule them.
I was brought up on a diet of sunday mass, communion, confession and all the mumbo jumbo it entailed, and always fought against it with teeth and nails, because I thought I always had better and more fun things to do on a sunday morning instead.
I haven't changed much, but I will not stand in my wife's way if she wants to go to church and worship, but I will actually join her, and while there, although I am not the most religious of persons, I will do a bit of reflecting myself.

What will you do when your good lady arrives???
Will you forbid her to pray???
Will you stop her from going to church???

It is give and take.

[aposhark]

No need to be baffled, mate.

Everyone is entitled to views and opinions, the quip and the joke and openess of debate.

I respect your views on being an atheist, it is your right to do so.
And my post wasn't directed at you personally, but at people in general that criticize others beliefs and ridicule them.
I was brought up on a diet of sunday mass, communion, confession and all the mumbo jumbo it entailed, and always fought against it with teeth and nails, because I thought I always had better and more fun things to do on a sunday morning instead.
I haven't changed much, but I will not stand in my wife's way if she wants to go to church and worship, but I will actually join her, and while there, although I am not the most religious of persons, I will do a bit of reflecting myself.

What will you do when your good lady arrives???
Will you forbid her to pray???
Will you stop her from going to church???

It is give and take.



My wife and I have discussed this at length, even before she arrives in the UK.
She can follow her beliefs and go to church as often as she wants, and I will never stand in her way.
I will drive her if I am not working and collect her outside when the service is over. I will encourage her to follow whatever belief she has as long as she doesn't try to get me involved.

Her right to follow her faith is paramount to her well-being.
Equally, the right for me to keep religion out of our conversations is my right.

I just mentioned to her that my beliefs are 100% apposed to hers though and that it will always be best for harmony that religion is not mentioned.
We understand each other.

I accompanied her into the old beautiful church in Cebu City "Santo Niňo" and watched respectfully as she prayed on the last trip.

[aromulus]

I accompanied her into the old beautiful church in Cebu City "Santo Niňo" and watched respectfully as she prayed on the last trip.


I rest my case....:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Piamed]

My final contributions on this topic are founded upon a reiteration of my assertion that love and respect should be maintained by ALL parties when discussing. Obviously, we all have differing interpretaions of what that means in practice and how they ought to be applied, so further elucidation would be redundant.

We are all entitled to our own theories of knowledge but it is difficult to debate when one's views are in opposition to those of any individual that postulates dismissively and with a conviction explicitly founded upon oxymora and propositions the veracity of which, are in my view, at best doubtful.

Further, the definitions of qualitative and empirical 'proof' or 'evidence' are not as simple as some might believe; rather they are expansive and much broader than we can accomodate in this thread!

It's a great day; I'm now gonna cuddle my wife and baby.

Peace to all!

[aposhark]

Hi Piamed.

Leave the religious brow-beating out of threads and we will get on well.
The point is non-believers don't want to debate.

Richard Lederer: There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.

Enjoy your beautiful baby girl......

[Pepe n Pilar]

This is indeed a neverending debate. But.....even if you believe in science rather than God - science would have us believe in parallel universes and alien societies out there that may be a billion years ahead of us. Who is to say that one of them is not God? Personally, I find it just as easy to believe in God as to believe in multiverses and string theory. Neither can be proved one way or the other. :)

Peace to All!!!!....:):Hellooo:

[aposhark]

This is indeed a neverending debate. But.....even if you believe in science rather than God - science would have us believe in parallel universes and alien societies out there that may be a billion years ahead of us. Who is to say that one of them is not God? Personally, I find it just as easy to believe in God as to believe in multiverses and string theory. Neither can be proved one way or the other. :)

Peace to All!!!!....:):Hellooo:

Parallel Universes and String Theory, way hey, now there's an easy subject to discuss......

[Piamed]

Hi Piamed.

Leave the religious brow-beating out of threads and we will get on well.
The point is non-believers don't want to debate.

Richard Lederer: There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.

Enjoy your beautiful baby girl......Hey Aposhark. I never try to brow beat on any plane. I responded initially to your statement that believing in God is nonsense. Any statement made which begs rational challenging will inevitably be debated.

Please note for the record that religion, Christianity and Catholicism are not synonymous. I think your view that non-believers do not like to debate raises quite a number of questions about how you see things and not about non-believers per se. I presume there is a purpose to you citing the particular individuals you have cited but I fail to see the relevance. Anyway, suffice to say that you have your views as do others. My initial point remains that we should all be respectful in the truest sense irrespective of our own positions in life. That should resonate with good people from opposing ideas of the religious divide.

I wish you a great journey back with your missus; I remember our journey back like it was yesterday albeit that much has happened since then.

[aposhark]

......I wish you a great journey back with your missus; I remember our journey back like it was yesterday albeit that much has happened since then.

Sorry, religious debate is never-ending so no more for me.....

Thanks for the comment about wishing us a great journey back.
For us, the journey is only just beginning :-)

[Sconnie]

May your God go with you :-)

[KeithD]

This is indeed a neverending debate.
I love a massdebate! :rolleyes:

[Eljohno]

Im sorry guys if i make u angry. It is not my mean.Really feel sorry for the outcome.. I just follow some thread like (i will leave filipino uk, You missed it) that inside it it was only a joke.,, I thought of it that you will open it emmidiately and you will find it funny. But you are devastated to find out my husband is not the one who died.

Second; I thought this forum is Godly site because when i was down many of you guys encourage me to keep on trusting God which makes me really strong through only to your words. And many of you bealive about EASTER week so i post my thread Easter Sunday which that day Jesus arise from dead ....Also, i just from the church and the message is still on my heart... Happy inside that i have Jesus!

Now i have a heavy heart... Broken_hearted once again... i was wrong.

Am i wrong to believe that this site is not Godly?

Lastly, i will ask you guys to forgive me to my title; but i wll not regret posting what is inside... May the good Lord bless you!

While i agree maybe your thread title could have done with more thought from my time here i can say that this is not a Godly site. Now what i mean is that its not meant to be its meant to be a site to help uk/Filipino people in many things connected to bringing your wife/husband to the uk in the best way possible.

Keith is not a Christian and has strong views against Christianity which because its his site he is entitled to. I disagree 100% with him on this but have enjoyed some debate in the past and respect him for all he has done over the years through this site to help many people so i have learnt that its ok to agree to disagree.

That aside i believe those members like me who are Christians on here should be allowed to encourage each other in a Godly way...

[Eljohno]

So, JESUS is alive!!!

Where is he then?

We had a big thread about religion before and many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense.

http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php?t=10855&highlight=religion

Why persist? It baffles me.

Aposhark,

while i respect your right to your view i think its unfair for you to say what Christians believe is nonsense.

Many people on here do believe in Jesus Christ but do not shove it down peoples throats..

Anyway i am not persist like you say and i have learnt to keep my views on Christianity on here to myself and only share with those people who are interested..

Happy Easter to everyone!!

[aromulus]

My final contributions on this topic are founded

upon a reiteration of my assertion that love and respect should be maintained by ALL parties when discussing. Obviously, we all have differing interpretaions of what that means in practice and how they ought to be applied, so further elucidation would be redundant.

We are all entitled to our own theories of knowledge but it is difficult to debate when one's views are in opposition to those of any individual that postulates dismissively and with a conviction explicitly founded upon oxymora and propositions the veracity of which, are in my view, at best doubtful.

Further, the definitions of qualitative and empirical 'proof' or 'evidence' are not as simple as some might believe; rather they are expansive and much broader than we can accomodate in this thread!


Eh.......???:Erm:


It's a great day; I'm now gonna cuddle my wife and baby.

Make the most of it, mate.
Babies have the most akward knack in growing rather fast, and if you blink you may miss the best bits....:xxgrinning--00xx3:


Peace to all!

And to you and family

[KeithD]

Keith is not a Christian and has strong views against Christianity which because its his site he is entitled to. ...
I am a Christian in the eyes of my parents and the church, but I do not follow religious twaddle. I do not worship anyone as that I regard as a type of slavery, and all religions just pick out the bits they like.

I neither acknowledge nor deny the existence of a 'God', but until someone supplies solid proof either way I will continue with my life helping others.

[aposhark]

Aposhark,
while i respect your right to your view i think its unfair for you to say what Christians believe is nonsense.!!

I did not single out Christianity if you read what I wrote.


Many people on here do believe in Jesus Christ but do not shove it down peoples throats..!!

I beg to differ.......You are advertising a religious website in your signature.


Anyway i am not persist like you say and i have learnt to keep my views on Christianity on here to myself and only share with those people who are interested..!!

That is how it should be.........


Happy Easter to everyone!!
Happy Holiday to you too.

[aposhark]

I am a Christian in the eyes of my parents and the church, but I do not follow religious twaddle. I do not worship anyone as that I regard as a type of slavery, and all religions just pick out the bits they like.

I neither acknowledge nor deny the existence of a 'God', but until someone supplies solid proof either way I will continue with my life helping others.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[walesrob]

..thread about religion before and many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense.



Got any numbers to back that claim? Did you do a survey?

[aposhark]

Got any numbers to back that claim? Did you do a survey?

Read the comments on the thread again.

[Piamed]

And to you and family

:icon_lol: Hi Dom. Sorry, i was trying to explain myself better but failed :) You are right, my most treasured moments are spent with my wife and baby, who has just made a mess while Pia was changing her :)

[Happy_Now]

Have you tried under "Eviction and repossessions"...???:Erm:

You dont need to evict me Sir;

Just want to say "THANK YOU" to those who encourage me when i am very down and feelin sad. May the good Lord bless you!

I cant take your responses, and it makes me cry.
I will pray all of you;
goodbye!

[Mrs.JMajor]

Y
I cant take your responses, and it makes me cry.
I will pray all of you;
goodbye!

Yeah,If I were you ,take a pause for a moments and just listen to them:rolleyes:
I mean read the post :Erm:

[Pepe n Pilar]

Dear Happy_Now, you don't have to take it seriously. It is not directed to you. This is just a discussion about the thread you just started. We just have to accept that life in this world is full of excitements or else it would be boring...

Think of it as if you're in a classroom. Students are free to share their views whenever a topic is opened or started by the teacher/instructor.

You should be glad many got interested and shared their views.

Cheers to All!:):xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Happy_Now]

it is not only whom you hurt. God is hurting! Cryin for your souls

[walesrob]

Read the comments on the thread again.

Perhaps you'd like to point me to the post in that thread that proves your point that in your words "many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense". What post number on the other thread has the figures I'm looking for? The post number would be the "#" followed by a number in the green bar right above where it states "join date".

[Happy_Now]

May your God go with you :-)

"thank you"

[Pepe n Pilar]

it is not only whom you hurt. God is hurting! Cryin for your souls

Read the posts by the members Happy_Now. They have different views about religion. You have to accept that, don't be sad.

I also refrain from talking about that subject. I'm used to be with people of different views in life, belong to different religions. (people are different) iba iba ang tao. My best friend when i was in High School is an INC but we get along well. I have friends who belong to diff denominations. We don't talk about religion.

If you want a topic about Religion then you have to be strong enough to face different views. Have you thought of that?
That is a very sensitive topic.

I just reply if it is asked.

Don't want to elaborate more.

Cheers!:Hellooo:

[aposhark]

Perhaps you'd like to point me to the post in that thread that proves your point that in your words "many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense". What post number on the other thread has the figures I'm looking for? The post number would be the "#" followed by a number in the green bar right above where it states "join date".

Rob,
You have asked me a similar question before, and I supplied you with some information about the decline of the church.
You can google "uk church attendances" and see for yourself.
It really doesn't serve any purpose for me to try to point out to you that a lot of people on this forum do not believe in God or religion and Christianity is a religion.
If you cannot see that for yourself, then not only do we differ in our stance on whether there is a God, we also don't agree that when we read lots of posts, that there are plainly many who have no time for church.
There really isn't any point in going over the same old ground, again.
A lady started this thread about "He Is Dead".
Now, for many of us, "He" never existed, so how can he die?
SHOW ME THE PROOF. If you cannot, there is no point in you continuing.

So, I will not continue ad infinitum with these pointless meanderings.
I will leave you with a quote on religion from a far more learned man, Sigmund Freud:

The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.

[Eljohno]

I did not single out Christianity if you read what I wrote.



I beg to differ.......You are advertising a religious website in your signature.



That is how it should be.........


Happy Holiday to you too.


Give me a break how is my signature shoving Christianity down peoples throats? Am i making anyone read it? Anyway the reason for this is that the church i got married in burnt to the ground so come back with something more solid.

Fact - Philippines is a catholic country so (not me included) most on here that are from there are Catholic so how can you expect them never to mention God on here?

[aposhark]

See what this religion thing does?

Is it devisive or not? If it is devisive, then don't mention it, it is best forgotten.

Religion, football and politics, bah.

Look, There's no god and Everton are the best team in England.

You see, nobody has EVER shown anyone any proof of a God or a Jesus, and, Everton have won more European Cups that Liverpool AND United combined.

AND all the politicians are decent honourable men and women who only want to TRULY serve the people, as they were elected to do so.

Now, you KNOW I am right..........

[Eljohno]

See i now know how far of the mark you are as Everton are not even the best team in Liverpool.

1/ Liverpool
2/ Tranmere
3/Acc Stanley
4/ Toffees

hehe

[Happy_Now]

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Eljohno]

I know this thread could take many turns with some getting annoyed so just let us agree the following;

Christians believe in Jesus the son of God and everything that comes with it....

Atheists do not believe in God (The short version)

The end....

[scott&ligaya]

ditto John

I suggest that the mods close this thread as it just causing unnecessary tensions within this membership. This is a great site with very helpful and friendly members and mods

[Pepe n Pilar]

This is the end of this topic as what Eljohno said..

Coffee or tea.... anyone?:D

[scott&ligaya]

milk and one sugar in my tea please!

[walesrob]

Rob,
You have asked me a similar question before, and I supplied you with some information about the decline of the church.



You said "...many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense." I asked you how many on this forum, but you could not supply that information. You don't speak for me, you don't speak for Kimmi, Ginapeterb and the 1000's of other members of this forum. Don't make claims you can't justify.

[Sconnie]

tea for me please.

"time for bed" says zebidee

Night night everyone

[aposhark]

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain

http://atheistempire.com/reference/religion/bible.php

[Eljohno]

You said "...many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense." I asked you how many on this forum, but you could not supply that information. You don't speak for me, you don't speak for Kimmi, Ginapeterb and the 1000's of other members of this forum. Don't make claims you can't justify.

Ok let it be said that i suggested this thread be closed as people will just go around in circles and its obvious that nothing anyone will say will have any effect on aposhark.

Also quoting people like Mark Twain and giving a link from some Atheist site will have 100% no effect on a true believer.

But i agree with Rob your statement that most on here think its nonsense is based on fiction not fact.

[aposhark]

You said "...many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense." I asked you how many on this forum, but you could not supply that information. You don't speak for me, you don't speak for Kimmi, Ginapeterb and the 1000's of other members of this forum. Don't make claims you can't justify.

Read the forum again and SEE that many are non-religious.

I DON'T WANT to speak for you, I speak for myself and what I see.

This is a forum about Filipina(o)s mostly meeting and marrying Brits, then finally coming to live in a mostly religion-free country.
That, is just the way it is.
You cannot change it and neither can anyone else.
My wife knows I do not believe in God, religion, Jesus or any other fable.

[aposhark]

Ok let it be said that i suggested this thread be closed as people will just go around in circles and its obvious that nothing anyone will say will have any effect on aposhark.

Also quoting people like Mark Twain and giving a link from some Atheist site will have 100% no effect on a true believer.

But i agree with Rob your statement that most on here think its nonsense is based on fiction not fact.

Eljohno, why do you misquote what I typed?

I said MANY not MOST....................

[Piamed]

Rob,
You have asked me a similar question before, and I supplied you with some information about the decline of the church.
You can google "uk church attendances" and see for yourself.
It really doesn't serve any purpose for me to try to point out to you that a lot of people on this forum do not believe in God or religion and Christianity is a religion.
If you cannot see that for yourself, then not only do we differ in our stance on whether there is a God, we also don't agree that when we read lots of posts, that there are plainly many who have no time for church.
There really isn't any point in going over the same old ground, again.
A lady started this thread about "He Is Dead".
Now, for many of us, "He" never existed, so how can he die?
SHOW ME THE PROOF. If you cannot, there is no point in you continuing.

So, I will not continue ad infinitum with these pointless meanderings.
I will leave you with a quote on religion from a far more learned man, Sigmund Freud:

The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.
It's ok to cast rhetoric but things should be substantiated otherwise its just gums bumping in the wind, irrespective of which side of the fence one is on. It's easy to dismiss notions and positions we do not understand, dictators and other disruptive leaders have been doing it for centuries.

I also understand church attendances overall are indeed in decline but let's examine some of the detailed context. Attendance and membership of the Charismatic churches are increasing. Have you taken this into consideration and why this is the case? Do you acknowledge that religion, Christianity and Catholicism are not synonymous? I ask this because many of your statements seem contextually biased and revolve around misused nomenclature.

You say many do not believe in God but are ignoring the fact that most on the forum probably do. That is at best misleading.

Respectfully, if you have undertaken anything other than a cursory glance at the seminal works of Freud and pondered on them as well as those of other learned observers, you would understand the broader concept of what proof is and would know that you cannot say that there is no proof that many people have that God exists. Undertake a critical review of the quotation you have highlighted and you might be able to falsify it. You will also know that usng the works of Freud as a basis for a view of the world and societal value systems would create socially inept individuals.


See what this religion thing does?

Is it devisive or not? If it is devisive, then don't mention it, it is best forgotten.
......If religion is, as you have implied, an improbable notion, as such it cannot in itself be divisive per se but the lack of respect for the views of others is. See below:


My wife and I have discussed this at length, even before she arrives in the UK.

What does this mean? How could you discuss something you dismiss? Why the emphasis on before she arrives in the UK?
She can follow her beliefs and go to church as often as she wants, and I will never stand in her way.

Surely your views and manner of expressing them as exemplified on this thread and others already stand as barriers in her way

I will drive her if I am not working and collect her outside when the service is over. I will encourage her to follow whatever belief she has as long as she doesn't try to get me involved.

How can you possibly encourage her in something you stand so firmly against?

Her right to follow her faith is paramount to her well-being.

I agree with that but given that her ability to follow her faith is somewhat impaired by your views which you are fully committed to upholding as illustrated in your signature, among other things, what does that suggest? Your signature s also surely advertising your philosophical view which is tantamount to a religion in the eyes of many.


Equally, the right for me to keep religion out of our conversations is my right.

Then just as equally your wife has the right to keep religion in your conversations. How will you deal with that?

I just mentioned to her that my beliefs are 100% apposed to hers though and that it will always be best for harmony that religion is not mentioned.
We understand each other.

You mentioned! What does that mean exactly? Do you mean that you told her how things are gonna be if she wants to have a harmonious marriage? What do you understand about her, when you are it appears the one who laid down the rules?

I accompanied her into the old beautiful church in Cebu City "Santo Niňo" and watched respectfully as she prayed on the last trip.

I really do not understand how given everything you have said and the way you have said them on this thread and on others, which i can extract if need be, you could possibly watch respectfully. What does watching respectfully mean to you?

You mentioned and quoted learned individuals earlier in an attempt presumably to bolster your unsubstantiated personal assertions. 'Celebrity' statement do not add much to the positions on either side. Extent research will do. What robust data o you have to support any of your assertions.

Many scholars believe that in order to have an ability to challenge something successfully they need to be able to defend to at least some credible extent the counter argument to the one they hold.

What can you say to counter your own arguments?

Pleas note that much of what I have said has been phrased as questions. That is because I hope that you might consider some specific items and how they might relate to you. I'm not judging you just cahllenging you on specific points not about your right to believe what you want.

Cordially!

[aposhark]

What can you say to counter your own arguments?

What proof do you have to counter your own arguments?

Show me the proof that anything you believe in has ANY basis in fact.

That will make me a believer.

[aposhark]

For Walesrob.........Christianity on its knees

1. UK

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3890080.ece

2. USA

http://www.christianwritingtoday.com/trends/151-christianity-declining-in-america.html

[Piamed]

What proof do you have to counter your own arguments?

Show me the proof that anything you believe in has ANY basis in fact.

That will make me a believer.

You've ignored the detail of my post for your own reasons. I would never state anything I am unwilling/unable to defend. I am able to comprehend your perspective and make assumptions, valid or otherwise, about why you might hold your views, even though I disagree with much of them.

Please note that I'm not trying to make you a believer - only He can do that should He choose to. I'm drawing your attention to some essential flaws and inconsistencies I perceive to be present in some of your statements.

I invited you to comment on them in particular areas in an attempt to challenge you to mutual benefit but you appear, in my view, unwilling to engage in discourse other than on a superficial and whimsical basis.

Peace!!

[aposhark]

You've ignored the detail of my post for your own reasons. I would never state anything I am unwilling/unable to defend. I am able to comprehend your perspective and make assumptions, valid or otherwise, about why you might hold your views, even though I disagree with much of them.

Please note that I'm not trying to make you a believer - only He can do that should He choose to. I'm drawing your attention to some essential flaws and inconsistencies I perceive to be present in some of your statements.

I invited you to comment on them in particular areas in an attempt to challenge you to mutual benefit but you appear, in my view, unwilling to engage in discourse other than on a superficial and whimsical basis.

Peace!!

Piamed,
You are focussing on the minutiae of everything instead of the real issue that there is no God, and you still cannot supply ANY proof.
Your attempts to disect every comment I have made "to mutual benefit" is tiresome and frankly, objectionable.

We will never have any mutual benefit, when you refuse to believe what is plain for the mostly non-believing British public: that you have to show proof to back up your religious ideas.

"essential flaws and inconsistencies".
I think your logic of belief without proof is exactly this.

Once again, "show me some proof".

I'm waiting...................(think it will be a long wait........)

There is no "He" "Her" or "It" that you or the others allude to.

This shows such a lack of understanding to me and the millions of other non-believers.

Meanwhile, people of "faith" leave the church, not so much one by one, but their children vote with their feet.

[Piamed]

The minutiae you want to avoid are only the facts missing from your rhetoric.

Metaphorically and speaking in jest:D:

A toothless lion will try to prevent prey it cannot defend being taken, by roaring loudly in the hope that might deter its competition without having to engage them directly and revealing it actually had no teeth!
Piamed 05:05, 14th April, 2009 (I know you like citations):)

I have no more to add; this is my long overdue exit point.:) I think enough has been teased out of this thread for fellow forumers and visitors to make of it what they will.:Brick:

All the best as you prepare for your loved one's arrival!!!!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[aposhark]

I know you like citations.

Yes, but even better are the pearls of wisdom from the bible:

What does the Bible Say About...?

GOD
"..the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts."
..........Isaiah 3:17
"I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."
..........Ezekiel 32:5
"I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rend them."
..........Hosea 13:8
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
..........Malachi 2:3
"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
..........Ezekiel 9:5
"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15
"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken."
..........Ezekiel 5:10, 5:17
"And I will fill your mountains with the slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall...Then you shall know that I am the Lord."
..........Ezekiel 35:8
"...I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things."
..........Isaiah 45:7

JESUS
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...."
..........Matthew 10:34
"'But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"
..........Luke 19:27
(parable) "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
..........John 15:6
"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
..........Matthew 13:49
"And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one."
..........Luke 22:36
"Do you think I have to come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother- in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in- law.
..........Luke 12:51
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him."
.........John 3:36
"And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating."
..........Luke 12:47
"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
..........Luke 14:26

SLAVERY
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
..........Exodus 21:20
"Let all who are under the yoke slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those that benefit by their service are believers and beloved."
..........1 Timothy 6:1
"If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
"Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes...."
..........Luke 12:37
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness."
..........Leviticus 25:44
"Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
..........Leviticus 25:45-46
"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect..."
..........Titus 2:9
"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...."
..........Ephesians 6:5

WOMEN
"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..."
..........Deuteronomy 22:20"
...they have rejected the word of the Lord, and what wisdom is in them? Therefore I will give their wives to others..."
..........Jeremiah 8:9
"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire will be for your husband."
..........Genesis 3:16
"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..."
..........1 Corinthians 7:4
"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man."
..........1 Corinthians, 11:8
"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord."
..........Ephesians 5:22
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
..........1 Corinthians 7:1
"...the Lord has trodden as in a wine press the virgin daughter of Judah."
..........Lamentations 1:
"Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..."
..........Zechariah 14:1
"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun."
..........2 Samuel 12:11
"Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives..."
..........Romans 7:2
"Likewise, you wives, be submissive to your husbands..."
..........1 Peter 3:1
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
..........1 Corinthians 14:34
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
..........Timothy 2:11
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem..."
..........2 Samuel 5:13

PERVERSION
"When men fight with one another, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity."
..........Deuteronomy 25:11
"Behold, I am against you, says the Lord of hosts, and will lift up your skirts over your face; and I will let nations look on your nakedness and kingdoms on your shame."
..........Nahum 3:5
"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord."
..........Deuteronomy 23:1
"...she played the harlot in the land of Egypt and doted upon her paramours there, whose members were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses."
..........Ezekiel 23:19
"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, remove the foreskin of your hearts..."
..........Jeremiah 4:4
"Any animal which has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut, you shall not offer to the Lord or sacrifice within your land..."
..........Leviticus 22:24
"David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines; and David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law."
..........1 Samuel 18:27
"Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?"
..........Romans 2:25
"...so when he went into his brother"s wife he spilled the semen on the ground...And what he did (spilling his semen) was displeasing in the sight of the Lord and He slew him also."
..........Genesis 38:9
"Bless, O Lord, his substance, and accept the work of his hands; crush the loins of his adversaries..."
..........Deuteronomy 33:11

[Piamed]

Out of 31,103 verses you have chosen these. Are you trying to make a particular point? Why did you use the New American Standard Bible Version? I'm just interested.

[KeithD]

Perhaps you'd like to point me to the post in that thread that proves your point that in your words "many people on this forum do NOT believe any of this nonsense". What post number on the other thread has the figures I'm looking for? The post number would be the "#" followed by a number in the green bar right above where it states "join date".
:Erm: Have you turned into a politician? Plaid Cymru the Welsh BNP? :omg:

I know from past experience on here that the majority of British guys on here, don't believe the twaddle, and that ties in with the official Brit figures from media polls.

Now take a happy pill, and say a prayer that the good Lord helps Liverpool put 4 past Chelsea :icon_lol:

[KeithD]

Fact - Philippines is a catholic country so (not me included) most on here that are from there are Catholic so how can you expect them never to mention God on here?

Correction:
The majority of the Philippine people are Catholics (because their parents made them so!), the country is not.
Same with Britain, the country is NOT Christian, it is of no religion, but a minority of the people are Christians.

[walesrob]

For Walesrob.........Christianity on its knees



Maybe you'd like to explain to me why the local Catholic Church in Aberystwyth is packed full during mass on Sunday. :Erm:

[KeithD]

Maybe you'd like to explain to me why the local Catholic Church in Aberystwyth is packed full during mass on Sunday. :Erm:
Where else can they go in Abertwitwith? :icon_lol:

[walesrob]

Correction:
The majority of the Philippine people are Catholics (because their parents made them so!), the country is not.
Same with Britain, the country is NOT Christian, it is of no religion, but a minority of the people are Christians.


This is taken from the Life in the Uk Test Official Publication - the very book applicants for LTR must study.

'Although the Uk is historically a Christian society, everyone has a legal right to practise the religion of their choice. In the 2001 census, just over 75% said they had a religion; 7 out of 10 of these were Christians. There were also a considerable number of people who followed other religions. Although many people in the UK say they hold religious beliefs, currently only around 10% of the population attend religious services. More attend services in Scotland and Northern Ireland than in England and Wales. In London, the number of people who attend religious services is increasing.

Religions in the UK %
Christian (10% of whom are RC) 71.6
Muslim 2.7
Hindu 1.0
Sikh 0.6
.....
No Religion 15.5

(c) Crown Copyright Published by TSO '


So who's telling the truth?

[Pepe n Pilar]

To Aposhark,

The argument that you cannot support your wife because you do not agree with her religious views is crazy. That is almost like saying that your wife would not support you because you like watching football and she doesn't. If that was the case there would be very few couples in the UK still together. :-) In any case it is variety, and the differences between people, that makes them interesting and often what attracts us to someone in the first place. :)
Vive la difference!:Hellooo:

[KeithD]

They reference 'Christians' as those who are baptized according to the official church records, and not what the population themselves say which I would say is the TRUE number, rather than governmental spun and twisted figures.

Just because people were baptized when they had absolutely zero choice in it, does not make them a Christain, or any other faith. I think it should be illegal, and classed a mental child abuse to do such things to babies/kids, without allowing them the knowledge of the world first so they can make their own choice when they are adults.

[Pepe n Pilar]

This is taken from the Life in the Uk Test Official Publication - the very book applicants for LTR must study.

'Although the Uk is historically a Christian society, everyone has a legal right to practise the religion of their choice. In the 2001 census, just over 75% said they had a religion; 7 out of 10 of these were Christians. There were also a considerable number of people who followed other religions. Although many people in the UK say they hold religious beliefs, currently only around 10% of the population attend religious services. More attend services in Scotland and Northern Ireland than in England and Wales. In London, the number of people who attend religious services is increasing.

Religions in the UK %
Christian (10% of whom are RC) 71.6
Muslim 2.7
Hindu 1.0
Sikh 0.6
.....
No Religion 15.5

(c) Crown Copyright Published by TSO '


So who's telling the truth?

7 out of 10 believe in Christ!.......:):xxgrinning--00xx3:

[walesrob]

They reference 'Christians' as those who are baptized according to the official church records, and not what the population themselves say which I would say is the TRUE number, rather than governmental spun and twisted figures.



So now your saying the Official Census carried out every 10 years is actually government spin? :icon_lol: Get real Keith, the figures speak for themselves. Even if only 10% attend church on a regular basis (and that number may have gone down since 2001 to say 6%) its hardly regarded as a minority. 3 million people live in Wales, thats about 6% of the total UK population, does that makes Welsh a minority? :NoNo:

[joebloggs]

7 out of 10 believe in Christ!.......:):xxgrinning--00xx3:

yes maybe, but how many go to church thou ?, and are they only, when it comes to weddings, christening, Easter and Xmas ??

[Eljohno]

Keith when i mentioned earlier that you were against Christianity and that you were an atheist you seemed to disagree but at every chance you it shows in your posts that your views are that of an atheist.

Aposhark its true that some of the mainstream churches are losing members and some of the reasons is that they are not doing enough to keep young people interested.

But the Evangelical churches are on the increase across the UK and USA.

Like i said before the thread will keep going around in circles because both Christians and Atheists will not change their views.

[aromulus]

yes maybe, but how many go to church thou ?, and are they only, when it comes to weddings, christening, Easter and Xmas ??

Going to church really is neither here or there, if you think about it, as many people will regard as having Christ/God within....

[walesrob]

Going to church really is neither here or there, if you think about it, as many people will regard as having Christ/God within....

Yay :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3: Dom is right :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

Dom, you should be the next Pope. :cwm24:

[walesrob]

yes maybe, but how many go to church thou ?,

currently only around 10% of the population attend religious services.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

Going to church really is neither here or there, if you think about it, as many people will regard as having Christ/God within....

if you ask someone if they are religious, you'll get many who say yes, but do they practise that religion ?

they believe in god, do they read the bible, do they go to church, do they practise what their religion says ??

you call yourself a Chelsea fan Dom, have you ever been to see them ? and go and ask those who have season tickets if they think you are a fan..

2 different answers :rolleyes:

[Piamed]

To Aposhark,

The argument that you cannot support your wife because you do not agree with her religious views is crazy. That is almost like saying that your wife would not support you because you like watching football and she doesn't. If that was the case there would be very few couples in the UK still together. :-) In any case it is variety, and the differences between people, that makes them interesting and often what attracts us to someone in the first place. :)
Vive la difference!:Hellooo:

Although I do not agree that it would be crazy as you put it, it would certainly be a misguided suggestion that one cannot support another in something that one did not believe in. Who do you believe put forward that argument? I've looked but cannot find it in this thread. Certainly, I never suggested thatsuggest that. :NoNo: My points related to Aposhark and his manner, etc. specifically. I deconstructed my queries in a particular way and raised some relevant issues which the honourable gentleman shied away from.:Brick:

Likening a football interest to a lifestyle and in many cases a fundamental determminant of the essential them is perhaps not the most useful analogy. :NoNo: Clearly, variety is the spice of life etc etc. I agree with you totally. :xxgrinning--00xx3: No intelligent person would challenge that on a general basis.

Being a Christian is about striving and is an ongoing struggle to be increasingly Christ-like. Being a Christian is not an absolute end-point as some seem to suggest. Because of that, Christians will always by definition be imperfect, just like everone else. Christianity is fundamentally about establishing and maintaining a relationship with God. There area variety of reasons that people attend church services.

The remnants of more traditional churches which tend to be steeped in tradition and rituals and are less scripture-led, are in decline but as stated before the Charismatic denominations that encourage bible-reading and understanding and a personal relationship with God and are more current, contemporary and engaging of the youth are on the up globally. London is a great example. It's difficult to address particular points by some unbelievers as it seems that the points raised are sometimes aimed at the wrong targets and without the understanding of the clearly discernable differences between Catholicism, Religion and Christianity.

It is true that some Christians are unfamiliar with the word of God. Much of that is historical. We could all do more in that regard. Many people should attend church as they can share the word of God and learn a great deal from their peers and often it is the one place where they can receive spiritual nourishment or indoctrination as some unbelievers may perceive it.

I think it's fine that Aposhark, I and others have differing opinions; as far as I'm concerned it does not detract from our friendship. That people can disagree on issues important to them helps develop relationships, e.g. marriage. Some of my good friends are devoutly-Islamic Arabians; I have on occasion found I have more in common with them than athiesits and many Christians. So long as true respect is given by all concerned we can overcome all things.

I as always, wish everyone the best and for one, have found all comments/responses really interesting whether I agree with them or not.

Peace to all as always!!!!

[aromulus]

i

you call yourself a Chelsea fan Dom, have you ever been to see them ?

:rolleyes:

Yes.
For many a year I was attending Earls court ideal home exhibition, and sometime I was able to sneak in a couple or three home matches.:xxgrinning--00xx3: Looked a bit of a prat in suit and tie, but there you go, the sacrifices one has to make sometime....:doh
Unfortunately I don't have the chance to get to London anymore or even being able to afford such a luxury as a footie ticket as other priorities have emerged.:bigcry:

[Pepe n Pilar]

So now your saying the Official Census carried out every 10 years is actually government spin? :icon_lol: Get real Keith, the figures speak for themselves. Even if only 10% attend church on a regular basis (and that number may have gone down since 2001 to say 6%) its hardly regarded as a minority. 3 million people live in Wales, thats about 6% of the total UK population, does that makes Welsh a minority? :NoNo:

About 2.9 million people live in Wales which is 5% of the total UK population.(Census done in 2005)

Still fresh in my mind Mod Rob. Just passed the Life in the UK test last week....:)

[joebloggs]

Likening a football interest to a lifestyle and in many cases a fundamental determminant of the essential them is perhaps not the most useful analogy.

i see your point, but how many people are dedicated to their religion, for many ticket holders football is their life, look how many fans go across Europe to watch a match and come straight back.

[KeithD]

7 out of 10 believe in Christ!.......:):xxgrinning--00xx3:

It does NOT say that!


So now your saying the Official Census carried out every 10 years is actually government spin? :icon_lol: Get real Keith,....
Do you not know how stats and the questions work?

The question in the census was:
What religion are you?

They did not have 'Atheist' included.

The question that would have given the TRUE result would be:
Do you believe in God, and if so what religion are you?
...and include in the possible answers 'None'

They did not do that, so the figures are incorrect for the true reflection of the publics beliefs, as the question did not entertain that notion, it surmise all those forced to be Christians when kids are Christians now.

Very simple to understand.

[Alan]

Going to church really is neither here or there, if you think about it, as many people will regard as having Christ/God within....

Totally agree!!!

Al.:)

[Pepe n Pilar]

I love a massdebate! :rolleyes:

:omg::omg::Erm::Erm::D:D

[Piamed]

i see your point, but how many people are dedicated to their religion, for many ticket holders football is their life, look how many fans go across Europe to watch a match and come straight back.
Noted Joe but football cannot define who an individual is and provide them a set of moral codes that help them contribute positively to society, raise their families and give them a divine source of conflict resolution.

[Alan]

I feel that I have to make one post here - despite not wishing to 'elongate' a thread which, quite frankly, has made me rather upset.

I have said before, on a couple of occasions - can't be a****d to look through and find them - that Jesus came to us with a message - be good - love your enemies - treat everyone as you would be treated. In other words, let's all be nice to each other!!!

Whether you believe in Him or not, let's try to live by His message. Wouldn't it be GREAT if everyone in the world was nice to his/her neighbour? No more crime, no more shooting, no more wars, no more Oldham getting beaten!

I KNOW and appreciate that, humankind as it is, these wishes are 'impossible' to realise - BUT - you must agree, it is a Utopian ideal n'est-ce pas?

So, Christian, athiest, agnostic, Jew, Muslim - WHATEVER - surely everyone on here would love to live by Jesus' message!

Let's just all be friends PLEASE!! Sod the cups of tea - let's all have a few beers.

Al.:)

[joebloggs]

Noted Joe but football cannot define who an individual is and provide them a set of moral codes that help them contribute positively to society, raise their families and give them a divine source of conflict resolution.

all you mention and more i can do without religion, treat people how you would like to be treated, fair play and justice, compassion, common sense, equality .. etc.

[Piamed]

all you mention and more i can do without religion, treat people how you would like to be treated, fair play and justice, compassion, common sense, equality .. etc.
I totally agree with that! I was merely attempting to highlight some of the fundamental heterogeneity existing between football and one's belief as cornerstones for the development of e.g. an individuals essential moral fabric, given the context of the prevailing discourse. For many their belief is a philosophy of life that governs their behaviour. It is totally normal for an individual to arrive at a similar set of guiding principles without a religion - absolutely.

[walesrob]

It does NOT say that!


Do you not know how stats and the questions work?

The question in the census was:
What religion are you?

They did not have 'Atheist' included.

Very simple to understand.

No Religion 15.5

Does that mean atheist? :doh

[KeithD]

No Religion 15.5

Does that mean atheist? :doh
No it doesn't, the question asks if you have a religion, the majority do, that is the question, not whether they believe or not, which the majority of Brits don't.

I wish you were a bookie the way you work with stats, I'd make more than I do. :icon_lol:

Can you ask God to gag Gordon Brown as the £££££ is on a roll in the Forex markets. :xxgrinning--00xx3: Every time he speaks it goes down :doh :action-smiley-081:

[walesrob]

Can you ask God to gag Gordon Brown as the £££££ is on a roll in the Forex markets

Call him yourself, I'm not your bitch :omg:

[joebloggs]

I totally agree with that! I was merely attempting to highlight some of the fundamental heterogeneity existing between football and one's belief as cornerstones for the development of e.g. an individuals essential moral fabric, given the context of the prevailing discourse. For many their belief is a philosophy of life that governs their behaviour. It is totally normal for an individual to arrive at a similar set of guiding principles without a religion - absolutely.

so what's the difference then, you read the bible, pray and goto church and i don't :Erm:, is that it :doh

i respect your right to believe what you want, and do what you want as long as its legal and if not, as long as it's in your own home :D

:ARsurrender:

[Florge]

from the things I read about cross-cultural communication, all of them (authors) would always remind their readers, to not talk about religion as this is a very sensitive, and complicated topic.

why did i say this? eeerrr... I don't know!

Happy_Now, cheer up. Some may be offended with your subject line, but there are also others (including me) who was just soooooo relieved that it is just a joke, that they forgot to be offended (?).... hehehehehe.... One Love everyone... we all share the same air...

[Mrs.JMajor]

Sorry guys cant help not to put my input,i like this thread (discussion),i been reading this thread since last night,very interesting.....most viewing thread so far...

[aposhark]

To Aposhark,

The argument that you cannot support your wife because you do not agree with her religious views is crazy. That is almost like saying that your wife would not support you because you like watching football and she doesn't. If that was the case there would be very few couples in the UK still together. :-) In any case it is variety, and the differences between people, that makes them interesting and often what attracts us to someone in the first place. :)
Vive la difference!:Hellooo:

Where did I type that???????
You too have the "ElJohno syndrome" - putting "words into people's mouths".

[aposhark]

Maybe you'd like to explain to me why the local Catholic Church in Aberystwyth is packed full during mass on Sunday. :Erm:

Aberystwyth is not exactly a large busy place.
My best friend for many years was from Porthmadoc, and he told me all along that coast there is big alcoholism problems as there is nothing else to do.
He is a Welshman, and he has never been to church in his life.
There is a link, get it?

[aposhark]

yes maybe, but how many go to church thou ?, and are they only, when it comes to weddings, christening, Easter and Xmas ??

He can go to speak to any church of any denomination and ask them about disappearing sheep, sorry, flock.

[aposhark]

I feel that I have to make one post here - despite not wishing to 'elongate' a thread which, quite frankly, has made me rather upset.

I have said before, on a couple of occasions - can't be a****d to look through and find them - that Jesus came to us with a message - be good - love your enemies - treat everyone as you would be treated. In other words, let's all be nice to each other!!!

Whether you believe in Him or not, let's try to live by His message. Wouldn't it be GREAT if everyone in the world was nice to his/her neighbour? No more crime, no more shooting, no more wars, no more Oldham getting beaten!

I KNOW and appreciate that, humankind as it is, these wishes are 'impossible' to realise - BUT - you must agree, it is a Utopian ideal n'est-ce pas?

So, Christian, athiest, agnostic, Jew, Muslim - WHATEVER - surely everyone on here would love to live by Jesus' message!

Let's just all be friends PLEASE!! Sod the cups of tea - let's all have a few beers.

Al.:)

I feel a song coming on.... "Imagine" by John Lennon...

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[walesrob]

He can go to speak to any church of any denomination and ask them about disappearing sheep, sorry, flock.

Ah I see, insults galore. :xxgrinning--00xx3: As for English man John Lennon he was higher than a kite most of the time. The drugs dont work.

[aposhark]

Ah I see, insults galore. :xxgrinning--00xx3: As for English man John Lennon he was higher than a kite most of the time. The drugs dont work.

Hahahahah, that has got to be one of the funniest retorts.
Go out in your town late at night and say bad things about Lennon.
I think you would end your night in a distressing way.....

[aposhark]

You see, I am just one of the millions of UK non-believers concerning religion.

If manic street preachers can spout off in the streets, then they have to realise that, living in a democratic society, non believers have the right to oppose them.

If people on this thread see fit to perpetuate religion, then equally they must expect an alternative viewpoint.

I for one will always speak up to limit religious propaganda anywhere, whatever the flavour.

I will forever say "show me some proof".
No matter what religious people's answers will be and no matter how they try to dress it up, there is and never will be any proof.

If people on here refrain from bringing up religion, I have no problem in keeping my views silent, I am sure others feel this way on here too.

The only problem is that religious people for some reason seem to want to spread their ideologies onto other folk. This is why they knock on people's doors all over the world in order to spread their beliefs.
People who do not believe do not waste their time knocking on people's doors, we are not in the slightest bit interested and live in this world.

Thankfully, in all the days I have lived in England, religion doesn't generally come into everyday conversation.

So, keep religion to yourselves and others like me will not have to take you to task. If religion is brought up again, then I will comment again.

It is simple.

Harmony goes hand in hand with respect, and respect means abstinence from religious ideology.

If all your family is religious, then talk about it all day and night to yourselves as it is quite a bore to others.

There are many marriages where both parties know how to aggravate each other if some buttons are pressed.
I have asked my wife to keep religion out of our conversations and she has agreed.
Likewise there will be topics that she will not want to discuss, and I will also button my lip and refrain for peace and happiness.

[Piamed]

so what's the difference then, you read the bible, pray and goto church and i don't :Erm:, is that it :doh
Huh!!!!!!!!! Where did that come from amigo? I thought we were talking about football versus faith as a basis for moral code here!!!!


So, keep religion to yourselves and others like me will not have to take you to task.Delusional and comic!!! I get it now!!! :)

[aposhark]

......Delusional and comic!!! I get it now!!! :)

"Eureka"......watch the soap on the floor though. Ha Ha, but at least I can keep to the bigger picture without getting a magnifying glass out :) :) :)

[JudyHon]

Ah I see, insults galore. :xxgrinning--00xx3: As for English man John Lennon he was higher than a kite most of the time. The drugs dont work.

As Karl Marx said "Religion is the opiate of the masses". :D Don't get me started on the Flying Spaghetti Monster... :Rasp:

Very entertaining thread tho...:)

[Piamed]

"Eureka"......watch the soap on the floor though. Ha Ha, but at least I can keep to the bigger picture without getting a magnifying glass out :) :) :):icon_lol::icon_lol:Funny guy! You are certainly not a man of the detail; I did notice that:)

Well, at least we have shown folk that we can both flourish within a love-hate relationship where you love me and .... :D

So, when will you and your better half be in the UK commencing your new life together? Let me tell you what you and so many others already know - It just keeps getting better and better! I took a picture earlier today, which is in my album, of my wife and baby asleep together. Oh my! Sniff, sniff!! I still have to pinch myself almost daily.

I'm still working on being a better person but am so fortunate compared to so many. All the best mate!

Btw, I enjoy sparring with you - even though you punch like a girl! :D

[Sconnie]

I feel a song coming on.... "Imagine" by John Lennon...

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Great artist, fantastic song, great lyrics; pity you can't live by these ideals aposhark.
This song is all about tolerance a brotherhood of man, but from your posts I cannot see you having any tolerance for anyone who is religious.
That is a great shame.

[Happy_Now]

Here are some men and women
who mocked God :


John Lennon (Singer):
Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:

"Christianity will end, it will disappear.
I do not have to argue about
that. I am certain.

Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, Today we are more famous than Him" (1966).

Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.


Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil ):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.

Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died .



Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
During A show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ),

while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said: "God, that's for you."
He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.


The man who built the Titanic

After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be.

With an ironic tone he said:
"Not even God can sink it"

The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic .


Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.
He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her.
After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said:
"I don't need your Jesus".

A week later, she was found dead in her apartment .

Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
"Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell".

On the 19th of February 1980 , Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit .

Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend.....
The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car:

"My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You.."
She responded: "Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause Inside Here.....It' s Already Full "

Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died,
the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.

The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was broken .

Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written.
In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle .

[Eljohno]

Where did I type that???????
You too have the "ElJohno syndrome" - putting "words into people's mouths".

I get the words MANY & MOST mixed up and all of a sudden its a symdrome:doh

Yes its your right to speak against what people say on here about Christianity and when you belittle what i have given my life to then i will speak my mind.

I am happy to share my views and thoughts on this thread like everyone is entitled i just hope it can be done it a constructive way and it does not turn into a slagging match.(This last comment is just a general thing and not pointed at any one person)

[Pepe n Pilar]

this saying is related to this discussion..

It's better to live and believe as if there is God and die and to know there is none

than

Live and believe as if there is no God and die and to know there is..

You can not turn back the hands of time...

:)

[aposhark]

Great artist, fantastic song, great lyrics; pity you can't live by these ideals aposhark.
This song is all about tolerance a brotherhood of man, but from your posts I cannot see you having any tolerance for anyone who is religious.
That is a great shame.

A shame to you maybe, a life in the here and now for me.

Isn't it amazing how people can read the same words and get a different meaning...."No religion too" is something you conveniently missed.

I will be tolerant with religious people when all religious persecution ends and when wars in the name of religion ends.

Google "Religious persecution" and read for weeks.

"Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock and roll or Christianity."
John Lennon

Well, he was right, Christianity is going..... :)

[KeithD]

Sorry guys cant help not to put my input,i like this thread (discussion),i been reading this thread since last night,very interesting.....most viewing thread so far...
I'm only posting again so people view it to see what crap I've posted this time :icon_lol:

[aposhark]

Here are some men and women
who mocked God :


By that premise, most of the UK would be dead by now then.
I didn't see that today when I was at work.....

:)

[aposhark]

I get the words MANY & MOST mixed up and all of a sudden its a symdrome:doh

Yes its your right to speak against what people say on here about Christianity and when you belittle what i have given my life to then i will speak my mind.

I am happy to share my views and thoughts on this thread like everyone is entitled i just hope it can be done it a constructive way and it does not turn into a slagging match.(This last comment is just a general thing and not pointed at any one person)

I did hope you'd see the funny side of my "syndrome" comment. :)
I equally have given my life to anti-religion.

"It's good to post"

[Mrs.JMajor]

I'm only posting again so people view it to see what crap I've posted this time :icon_lol:

I checked the thread Keith,the discussion about religion ,and its gonna beat now:yikes:,its also go on page 5 with 1,666 viewer and 149 replies,and this thread is still going .....:BouncyHappy:Go,go,go.....and i saw more members are viewing the thread:yikes:

[aposhark]

this saying is related to this discussion..

It's better to live and believe as if there is God and die and to know there is none

than

Live and believe as if there is no God and die and to know there is..

You can not turn back the hands of time...

:)

It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem

[aposhark]

I'm only posting again so people view it to see what crap I've posted this time :icon_lol:

It's probably nerves before the match tonight :icon_lol:

[aposhark]

I checked the thread Keith,the discussion about religion ,and its gonna beat now:yikes:,its also go on page 5 with 1,666 viewer and 149 comment,and this thread is still going on.....:BouncyHappy:Go,go,go.....and i saw more members are viewing the thread:yikes:

Go, aposhark Go :BouncyHappy:
Fight the Christian hordes off with your shield of atheism.

Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

[KeithD]

It's probably nerves before the match tonight :icon_lol:
I've put an order in for lightning! :rolleyes:

[aposhark]

I've put an order in for lightning! :rolleyes:

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence - Doug McLeod.

[JudyHon]

Here are some men and women
who mocked God :

I can't see the relevance of a handful of unfortunate fates of blasphemers. Not really scientific. For every one quoted there are thousand other doubtful critics who didn't meet a sticky end. Just another urban myth

Besides, you portray a rather old testament, spiteful, and thin-skinned deity by your reasoning. Better workship and be good, or I'll make you pay :cwm23: etc...

I'll take my chances as worm-food, thanks - far preferable than put up with an eternity run by such a humourless, unforgiving, wrath-filled supreme one. :Help1:
:ARsurrender:

[aposhark]

....Don't get me started on the Flying Spaghetti Monster... :Rasp:

And.....?

Quick, take the flank and push that bloody ladder back.
Ouch! someone just bit me on the leg.
..............Incoming.................
Whiiiizzzzzzzzzzzz
That was close.
So where's that monster then?
We need him NOW!....

[Sconnie]

[QUOTE=aposhark;127831]

Isn't it amazing how people can read the same words and get a different meaning...."No religion too" is something you conveniently missed.


I did not overlook it, Lennon included this in the lyrics because religion is one of the excuses/causes of conflict, but the song is about much more than that its about general tolerance of differences and living in harmony.

You remind me of Boy George he is intolerant of heterosexuals because he is gay and will take every opportunity he can to tell everyone who is not gay that they are wrong.

[aposhark]

I can't see the relevance of a handful of unfortunate fates of blasphemers. Not really scientific. For every one quoted there are thousand other doubtful critics who didn't meet a sticky end. Just another urban myth

Besides, you portray a rather old testament, spiteful, and thin-skinned deity by your reasoning. Better workship and be good, or I'll make you pay :cwm23: etc...

I'll take my chances as worm-food, thanks - far preferable than put up with an eternity run by such a humourless, unforgiving, wrath-filled supreme one. :Help1:
:ARsurrender:

Quick my dear, push them back........
Ah that's better.
You're a Good-un :)

[aromulus]

Go, aposhark Go :BouncyHappy:
Fight the Christian hordes off with your shield of atheism.

Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

For the benefit of the other members and the Forum in general I would respectfully ask you to fight those terrible hordes some other time, some other place.

By now your dislike or hate for everything resembling some kind of faith, is well known to us all, and it would be really appreciated if you don't jump at people's throath again.
You do not have to participate in religion based threads

This thread started innocently by someone celebrating Easter in her own way, and escalated, near enough, into a full scale slanging match.

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................

[Piamed]

Go, aposhark Go :BouncyHappy:
Fight the Christian hordes off with your shield of atheism.

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!

That sticky brown stuff you are holding in front of you in an attempt to parry probing questions and a quest for rational debate is not a shield!!!!!!!:D

[kimmi]

For the benefit of the other members and the Forum in general I would respectfully ask you to fight those terrible hordes some other time, some other place.

By now your dislike or hate for everything resembling some kind of faith, is well known to us all, and it would be really appreciated if you don't jump at people's throath again.
You do not have to participate in religion based threads

This thread started innocently by someone celebrating Easter in her own way, and escalated, near enough, into a full scale slanging match.

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................




i second the motion..:ARsurrender::ARsurrender:

[JudyHon]

this saying is related to this discussion..

It's better to live and believe as if there is God and die and to know there is none

than

Live and believe as if there is no God and die and to know there is..

You can not turn back the hands of time...

:)

It's not a very logical saying if you ask me...

Surely it's better to live a good and full life (regardless of religion) and if there is a hereafter, then that's all gravy....
....than to forgo and sacrifice now (as most religions demand) in the hope of a better life that may or may not exist?

Neat trick to keep the hoi polloi from complaining and rebelling mind you.

Also how will you 'know' there is no God when you're dead and there's no afterlife? :Erm:

[aposhark]

.....You remind me of Boy George he is intolerant of heterosexuals because he is gay and will take every opportunity he can to tell everyone who is not gay that they are wrong.

So, do you like my new clothes, then?
Come on, you do really don't you?
Do they clash with my eye shadow?
Go on, I can handle the truth....

But you know what they always say "There's no shame in one man's love for another"....
Now here's some hot oil on your head, it's like shampoo you know....

Like that? :) :) :) You look so good down there, sorry it's a bit hot, came out of the cauldron that way! Sorrrryyyyy

[aposhark]

For the benefit of the other members and the Forum in general I would respectfully ask you to fight those terrible hordes some other time, some other place.

By now your dislike or hate for everything resembling some kind of faith, is well known to us all, and it would be really appreciated if you don't jump at people's throath again.
You do not have to participate in religion based threads

This thread started innocently by someone celebrating Easter in her own way, and escalated, near enough, into a full scale slanging match.

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................




"You do not have to participate in religion based threads."
They are participating too.
It takes two to tango.
I will stop when they stop.

I suggest Keith close the thread because my right to free speech is as strong as their right to try to brainwash people.

[Mrs.JMajor]

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................


:icon_lol::icon_lol::Cuckoo:and why he is so small then Mod,but opss keith says god doesnt exist too...:xxparty-smiley-004:

Dont quote me,im not ready for discussion:peepwall:

[aposhark]

For the benefit of the other members and the Forum in general I would respectfully ask you to fight those terrible hordes some other time, some other place.

By now your dislike or hate for everything resembling some kind of faith, is well known to us all, and it would be really appreciated if you don't jump at people's throath again.
You do not have to participate in religion based threads

This thread started innocently by someone celebrating Easter in her own way, and escalated, near enough, into a full scale slanging match.

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................




They have jumped down my throat too, in case you haven't noticed.
There are others here who also feel as I do.
This thread has 1,500+ views already.
That IS what healthy debate is.
That is why people are constantly coming back to it.

Keith is "THE BOSS" (bugger he's a red nose too). He has the same basic idea as me......
People enjoy debate, that is why talk radio is so big.

[aromulus]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::Cuckoo:and why he is so small then Mod,but opss keith says god doesnt exist too..

During the course of the thread, Keith and Rob also commented on a few occasions, but they had respect for other people's views and did not insult their faith or their choice to believe in something.

[joebloggs]

maybe i was born an Eskimo :D

my fav quote “Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

but i'll be keeping little joe free and innocent from religion for as long as possible and let him decide :rolleyes:


peace guys :ARsurrender:

[aromulus]

This thread has 1,500+ views already.
.

I must have logged on the thread at least 40 times since yesterday...

And if every contributor to this thread logged on at least 7 times or 8, just to check if anybody posted something else, or see if there was anything worth replying to, you soon get to 1500 +....

[KeithD]

Kippers! :rolleyes:

[aposhark]

Dom,

I will not give up on fighting rascism and religious intolerance.
If I did, it would be another victory for lack of moderation.
Doing nothing is not an option.
All my life and all over the world I have stood up against rascism and intolerant religious ideas.
BUT when people try to convert me (as they all seem to want to do) I will tell them why religion is wrong IMO.

I sat with 20 muslims in a Baltimore cafe on the day after the 9-11 tragedy and explained to them that it wasn't a Jewish plot.
I told a whole bar of irate Americans that nuking Afghanistan was not a good idea because of the civilian loss of life.
They wanted to rearrange my exterior but their shouts of "Commie Barsteward" had a rather comical edge.
They gave up.
I have Jewish friends too...
None of them will try to tell me that their religion is better than the other, because I will tell them that it is all bad, and that no religion is better than a religion that will not listen to reason.

[KeithD]

.... keith says god doesnt exist too...
:Erm: I've never said that!

Can't close the thread......we're still celebrating Easter :Hellooo: I even seen the Bunny before....not much of it left on the road though :angry:

[aposhark]

During the course of the thread, Keith and Rob also commented on a few occasions, but they had respect for other people's views and did not insult their faith or their choice to believe in something.


Nice to see you join in Dom.
You think that I have "insulted their faith or their choice to believe in something".
There is an opposite view that I belong to, that I think they are just not happy that others do not subscribe to their way of thinking.
I am not insulting their faith, I am just saying that in my opinion, there is no god and no Jesus.
It is the basic tenets of atheism.

[aposhark]

:Erm: I've never said that!

Can't close the thread......we're still celebrating Easter :Hellooo: I even seen the Bunny before....not much of it left on the road though :angry:

I like your style.
It is as trendy as my Boy George dress..... :)
There is justice in that free speech is probably the most important thing we ALL have.
We cannot give the floor to only religious people, that would be a disservice to everyone.
Likewise, the floor cannot be occupied solely by atheists like me.

[Mrs.JMajor]

:Erm: I've never said that!

Can't close the thread......we're still celebrating Easter :Hellooo: I even seen the Bunny before....not much of it left on the road though :angry:

I am a Christian in the eyes of my parents and the church, but I do not follow religious twaddle. I do not worship anyone as that I regard as a type of slavery, and all religions just pick out the bits they like.
I neither acknowledge nor deny the existence of a 'God', but until someone supplies solid proof either way I will continue with my life .
Yap, apology for my words,i should just quote it.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Eljohno]

I did hope you'd see the funny side of my "syndrome" comment. :)
I equally have given my life to anti-religion.

"It's good to post"

I am Irish and love a good joke so sorry if i never picked up on it but thanks anyway for the humour as this thread needs it:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Jamesey]

An interesting thread!

But it's very difficult to have a sensible debate with religeous types. The doctrine just won't allow it!

The beauty of science is that it is constantly challenged by new ideas and theories. If they can be backed up with empirical eveidence, then they are adopted, until a better one comes along.

But don't take my word for it. Read something by Richard Dawkins. :D

Having said all that, I really enjoyed my 4 day weekend! :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Piamed]

An interesting thread!

But it's very difficult to have a sensible debate with religeous types. The doctrine just won't allow it!
I can't believe that even Aposhark would associate himself with such uninformed statements. As with Christians or other faiths, the reality is that there numerous intelligent atheists and non-believers - the two can be quite distinct groups, that are able to debate in a highly interesting and robust manner using complex data and rational interpretation. A couple of the loudest athiest voices on this thread have called for proof that God exists. Some then go on to suggest that only empirical data is valid as a proof source and cite observers, the full works of whom they have never read or understood. Had they done so, they would realise that the concepts of proof are varied and complex a la legal concepts of proof or evidence. All the time unqualified statements such as the church is in decline are made. But what is the church to which they refer? I'm uncertain. They then start talking about Catholicism. Their attention is drawn to the fact that Catholicism is no longer the church and that Charismatic and Evangelical churches are thriving at a fast rate. Any reply from the particular individuals? Absolutely, silence. They make mention of hail-Mary's and Confession. Again an attempt is made to make them aware that they are talking about Catholicism. Any response? Again, none.

All contributors to this thread should also be aware that so many people of varying backgrounds read the posts and receive a wide variety of messages that differ on an individual basis. This is because we lall have different histories, backgrounds, biases and thus perspectives. For my part, the central issue was not about trying to convert one side to another's 'correct' way of thinking. Why should it be? How dare anyone be arrogant enough to think he can and has the right to do that.

In my own case, I was really intrigued to query where a particular individual was coming from and get him to confront the weaknesses and omissions I perceived to be present in his initial and unsolicited statements. Thus, engage in a debate. I think that was achieved to some degree and the outcomes will be interpreted on an individual basis. Some like to learn about the perspective of others. One way to do that is through constructive debate. Those that like to do so participated and tried to avoid trivia and focuss on salient points. Others that do not like debate or to query these things in this manner have not done so. In my view neither is right or wrong. We are who we are.

I did not see this thread totally descend into a slanging match but I did see some misunderstandings perhaps. Anyway, I think to honest partis of this thread have run their course so I will now totally exit from further participation in this thread but would like to first comment on the following 2 points:


The beauty of science is that it is constantly challenged by new ideas and theories. If they can be backed up with empirical eveidence, then they are adopted, until a better one comes along.
Firstly, science does not force one into atheism. I myself am a scientist. You seem to think that religious theory is not advanced by continual understanding. I believe that to be patently incorrect. You have outlined an oversimplistic and inaccurate view of how theories are constructed. It is surprising how many people are unaware of anything other than positivistic evidence. Consider advanced social science theory. What about realism, Post-Structuralism and Postmodernism, rationalism, etc?


But don't take my word for it. Read something by Richard Dawkins. :D
We really must stop quoting people in a manner that insults their original observations. Also, Dawkins et al. would hastily remind you that theirs is only considered an acceptable series of relational notions by some of their peers until something else comes along. They also write for critical consideration.

You are implicitly unaware that Stephen J. Gould, argued for the mutual co-existence of science and religion as non-overlapping magisteria while Richard Dawkins wrote that claiming that religious beliefs are outside the domain of science is intellectually dishonest.

The underlying problem with Richard Dawkins and the vast majority of other practising scientists, is that they are an ontologically empiricist. This means among many other things, that they view definition of cause as simply being a correlation between events: if you find that whenever A happens, then B follows, and that if A doesn't then B doesn't. Thus, A causes B. Oversimplistic and often wrong.

For example, if you flick a light switch the light comes on. If you don't then it won't. If this is the case then by definition the switch caused the light to come on. Richard Dawkins is quite explicit in his agreement *at least in how the concept of `cause' is used in practice:

To many, causation is a rather simple statistical concept. Operationally we can never demonstrate that a particular observed event C caused a particular result R, although it will often be judged highly likely. What some non-empiricists do in practice is to establish statistically that events of class R reliably follow events of class C... Statistical methods are designed to help us assess, to any specified level of probabilistic confidence, whether the results we obtain really indicate a causal relationship.

Observers such as Denett believe`If one finds a predictive pattern of the sort just described one has ipso facto discovered a causal power * a difference in the world that makes a subsequent difference testable by standard empirical methods of variable manipulation.'

The problem with this definition of cause is that it doesn't give us a way of looking beneath the surface appearances of events, to their underlying reality. Marx once noted that if the world worked just as it appeared to, then there would be no need for science.

Take a simple example. Most people who bought a council house during the 1980s voted Conservative in 1987; most who refused, or couldn't afford to, didn't. The empiricist must draw the conclusion that buying a council house causes voting Conservative. There is certainly an element of truth in this, but we all know that the real situation is far more complicated. A specific economic and political situation, including rising property prices, caused both house buying and Conservative voting. Therefore they were correlated. If the situation changes, for example, if falling house prices as seen today, produce negative equity, then the link between house ownership and voting intentions changes. Some would argue these days it is those trapped with big mortgages compared to their income who most want to strangle Conservatives.

The empiricist definition of cause raises a correlation between events into a real mechanism, and tends to obscure the complexities and dynamics of real life.

Religious faith is assumed by Dawkins to be unevidenced belief. But Christian faith is grounded on a combination of evidence, including that drawn from history, personal experience and the world around. The justification for such belief is in the nature of a cumulative case. Like the clues in a detective story, no single item of evidence may be totally compelling on its own, but together they may build up a convincing case, sufficient for trust and action.

Dawkins constantly assumes that, since material objects have beginnings, God would also have had to have had an origin and asks 'who designed the divine creator?' But he vehemently rejects (rightly) the similar argument from analogy that, since everyday objects have designers, the universe must have a designer.
If the universe doesn't need a designer, why should he claim that God needs one?

[pennybarry]

I don't speak if the topic is Religion and Politics:D

Too critical topics to discuss and debate:doh

[Happy_Now]

This thread is not a mistake. And it reveals what to reveals;
I am not a religious person and my faith is not depend on it.
Salvation for me is a personal relationship with God and accepting Jesus Christ as saviour & Lord…
Our life in this world is just a glimpsed my friends, Think what is behind…
I don’t want arguments…
I don’t want debate…
I don’t mind if in this site you call me LOSER…..
I don’t mind if you are laughing at me…………………. because,
Exodus 14:14 The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Love you all guys…
If you really concern, or want to know about salvation
OR, if you want to know who really I am, you can send me email;

[JudyHon]

Religious faith is assumed by Dawkins to be unevidenced belief. But Christian faith is grounded on a combination of evidence, including that drawn from history, personal experience and the world around. The justification for such belief is in the nature of a cumulative case. Like the clues in a detective story, no single item of evidence may be totally compelling on its own, but together they may build up a convincing case, sufficient for trust and action.

Dawkins constantly assumes that, since material objects have beginnings, God would also have had to have had an origin and asks 'who designed the divine creator?' But he vehemently rejects (rightly) the similar argument from analogy that, since everyday objects have designers, the universe must have a designer.
If the universe doesn't need a designer, why should he claim that God needs one?

Dawkins is correct about evidence. Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence. That's why it's called faith. Faith - 'belief that is not based on proof'.

There is no more evidence of a supreme being than fairies at the bottom of the garden or Santa Claus. Historical evidence is far too unreliable to be of any use, and personal experience and the world around is purely subjective, and often the result of people's need to see order and meaning in chaotic reality.

I find the 'cumulative evidence' of faiths entirely inadequate, whereas I find scientific explanations frequently compelling, and often revised. And any suggestion of equivalence (as are so often argued) between the two is purely spurious.

I am not arrogant enough to believe in absolutes and I wish all believers equally did not talk in certainties when none exists - that is what grates. Everyone is entitled to their views without condescension and sanctimony. The recent London Bus Advert episode is a perfect example of this...:D:doh

[aromulus]

Dawkins is correct about evidence. Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence. That's why it's called faith. Faith - 'belief that is not based on proof'.



Yup, have no argument with that.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Live and let live in peace and harmony.

[Piamed]

Although I can see how you have formed your opinion on some things, you appear to contradict yourself from the get go.

You say that you are "not arrogant enough to believe in absolutes" and "talk in certainties". Yet you said the following, "Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence." Dawkins even conceded that Jesus probably did exist.
have you considered why Dawkins believes that. Btw, after you extensive review of the subject what empirical evidence do you have that God does not exist. There is not any sop all you are ultimately left with is nothing. Take any evidence that God exists from believers and we are still left with faith.

In addition, are you aware of the exchanges between Dawkins and many former peers including Flew?

Dawkins is a brilliant man. There have been many brilliant men throughout history that have later amended, adapted and recounted suggestions put forward earlier in their careers. Dawkins, whose whole case is based on the assertion that believing in a creator of the universe is no different from believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, now says that a serious case can be made for the idea that the universe was brought into being by some kind of purposeful force. A creator. Some of us already knew that, yes, largely by faith.

Flew, the celebrated philosopher and former high priest of atheism, spectacularly changed his mind and concluded There Is A God - that life had indeed been created by a governing and purposeful intelligence, a change of mind that occurred because he followed where the scientific evidence led him. The conversion of Flew, whose book contains a cutting critique of Dawkins’s thinking, has been dismissed with unbridled scorn by Dawkins – who now says "there is a serious case for the position that Flew now adopts!"

Richard Dawkins said, 'Jesus existed, I'll give you that one." during a recent debate with John Lennox. Why did he say that?

Quite an admission for Dawkins who has been arguing that Jesus probably didn't in fact exist.

Flew points out in his own book that Dawkins’s claim in The God Delusion that Einstein was an atheist is manifestly false, since Einstein had specifically denied that he was either a pantheist or an atheist. In the debate, under pressure from Lennox Dawkins was actually forced to retract his previous claim that Jesus had probably ‘never existed’.

Most intelligent observers ultimately note that there are limitations to where their understanding can take them. Can anyone of us be arrogant enough to even think we are a millinion light years away from comprehending the world system and the order within it? In my view, that many call it chaos goes part way to answering that question.

On a lighter note, take Bruce Almighty, if Dawkins or any other scientist, world leader, etc were given the authority to govern the world on all levels as Bruce was given in the movie, do you think a chaos on a macro level and up close, that is beyond our worse nightmares would not ensue. Surely then you would be able to see that there was always a much greater hand at play.

Can I also say that faith does not require proof or empirical evidence? The only ones that require proof are unbelievers. Some believers try to offer proof but it really is not necessary to them just as miracles are not required by believers.

My very last contribution.

All the best!

[joebloggs]

yes back to nappy duty toks, i've got little joe tugging my arm, he will not stop til i get up :icon_lol:

either wants ice cream, chocolate or cookies :doh

:Help1:

[Piamed]

yes back to nappy duty toks, i've got little joe tugging my arm, he will not stop til i get up :icon_lol:

either wants ice cream, chocolate or cookies :doh

:Help1:

:):) Marikit waits until her nappy has been removed and then goes again. :D

[Mrs.JMajor]

My very last contribution.

I bet when you reply post,you put marikit on the sofa and saying to her "wait anak,i got something to sort out"

commercial break--:xxparty-smiley-004:

[joebloggs]

:):) Marikit waits until her nappy has been removed and then goes again. :D

yes you have to be quick or :piss2:

trouble is with little joe, he's not so little, thou 2 1/2, hes the height of a 4yr old :yikes:, now he can open the fridge door, reach most things out of the cupboards, turn everything on and off, and if he can't reach something he will carry or drag a chair, so he can :doh

[KeithD]

It's simple.

Religious folk are all mental nutters.

Non-religious folk are crazy :censored:'s

Kind of cancel each other out :icon_lol:

[Piamed]

I bet when you reply post,you put marikit on the sofa and saying to her "wait anak,i got something to sort out"

commercial break--:xxparty-smiley-004:Hehe! Marikit is sleepining and when Pia is asleep or busy I post! :)


yes you have to be quick or :piss2:

trouble is with little joe, he's not so little, thou 2 1/2, hes the height of a 4yr old :yikes:, now he can open the fridge door, reach most things out of the cupboards, turn everything on and off, and if he can't reach something he will carry or drag a chair, so he can :dohOh my! I'm dreading that stage. Already paranoid about wires, ornaments, etc within a young child's reach! :)


It's simple.

Religious folk are all mental nutters.

Non-religious folk are crazy :censored:'s

Kind of cancel each other out :icon_lol:I can live with that. Ah, but then since you are, by your own admission, either a nutter or crazy, perhaps we should disregard what you just said. :icon_lol:

[somebody]

Don't worry Ate.

People have different opinions about all sorts of different things, and faith or religion is the one that divide them the most.
I don't see anything wrong in posting what you believe in, lots of other forumers share your beliefs, me too, to a certain extent.

The title, tho, I reckon was ill chosen, especially after your original postings, as Toks mentioned.
In this I agree with him.
If you pm me, with an alternative heading, I will try to edit the title for you.
The site is great, and although we have non-catholics on board, we are all christians of some description or the other.
An Italian renaissance artist once said that "religion is like pasta, you have so many different sauces to go with it".....:D
So cheer up, and keep posting.


Are you sure all are Some kind of christian on here?

Not really a big issue to me but I know of people in Brit Phil relationships who are not Christians.

But I understand your sentiment Sir that at the end of the day we are all (hopefully) people who wish to respect the rights of others to belive what they like as long as it harms no one or they force it on to others:)


So peace Love and Fairycakes for all:D

[joebloggs]

and Fairycakes for all:D

is that what you've been doing for the last few weeks Andy ?

:icon_lol:

hmm got any veggy ones :Rasp:

[somebody]

is that what you've been doing for the last few weeks Andy ?

:icon_lol:

hmm got any veggy ones :Rasp:

Can you get non Veg Fairy cakes:Erm:

[KeithD]

I can live with that. Ah, but then since you are, by your own admission, either a nutter or crazy, perhaps we should disregard what you just said. :icon_lol:
Who Me? :Cuckoo:

[JudyHon]

Although I can see how you have formed your opinion on some things, you appear to contradict yourself from the get go.

You say that you are "not arrogant enough to believe in absolutes" and "talk in certainties". Yet you said the following, "Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence." Dawkins even conceded that Jesus probably did exist.


Sorry, but there is no contradiction between acknowledging that you don’t know everything, and stating that by it's definition faith cannot be based on evidence or it wouldn't be faith. They are disparate points. Besides, you later state yourself that faith does not require proof, so not sure why you previously talked of evidence supporting faith - your words not mine.:Erm:

I note also the contrast between my acceptance of the possibility of doubt and your unfounded certainty ‘Some of us already knew that, yes, largely by faith.’ To know anything by faith is a contradiction in my book. And the Bible is one big contradiction. This is the grating unsubstantiated certainty I spoke of.

Whether or not there was a conjuror or prophet called Jesus in some Roman Empire backwater who duped the locals has about as much to do with the price of fish as the existence of a supreme being.

Just because a human given divine powers would make a mess of things is also an irrelevance, and a lack of actual chaos does not indicate a ‘greater hand at play’. Such a conclusion does not follow at all, and seems like a leap of faith to me. That figures. :rolleyes: It is again the flawed thinking that there must be some greater meaning where there is none. A ‘God of the Gaps’ which is diminished progressively as science advances.

I fail to see how scientific evidence led anyone to conclude a ‘governing intelligence’. Creationists spend their time hunting for evidence of a designer when biological evidence points the other way. From vestigial limbs to extreme flatulence points towards the unintelligence of design in my opinion.:icon_lol:

I fail to see the relevance of Einstein either – as I recall he made it quite clear he was not a believer after many religious folk tried to infer that he was.

Enjoy :cwm12:

[Pepe n Pilar]

Hi JudyHon. A fascinating perspective - if a little one sided. I agree with a lot of what you say but on the subject of Einstein he actually did acknowledge the existence of God on several occasions. For example he said: "God is subtle but he is not malicious" and "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind". He also said towards the end of his life that the only logical conclusion for all his theories (in particular general relativity) was that there is a God.

See: Oxford dictionary of quotations, Einsteins Universe and The Iron Sun..
Please check the facts. :-)

Cheers!:)

[Mrs Daddy]

Blimey its on its 7th page now:D

[KeithD]

What has Einstein got to do with anything? :Erm: He was just a scientist/mathematician, and one that most of his theories were either dumped by him, or have since been proven wrong, with the few that are left now under assault as we discover more.

[Pepe n Pilar]

I see that you are not a fan of Einstein Boss Keith. But in his defence he was more than just a scientist - and without him our sat navs would not work. Just because we have learned more does not diminish his work. That's a bit like villifying Charles Babbage (the forefather of computing) because he did not discover microprocessors. :-)

Sorry out of topic here.
Just quoted JudyHon's last sentence, "Einstein made it clear he was not a believer after many religious folks tried to infer that he was".... not quoting on Einstein's works..

Cheers!:)

[Piamed]

Sorry, but there is no contradiction between acknowledging that you don’t know everything, and stating that by it's definition faith cannot be based on evidence or it wouldn't be faith. They are disparate points. Besides, you later state yourself that faith does not require proof, so not sure why you previously talked of evidence supporting faith - your words not mine.:Erm:

I note also the contrast between my acceptance of the possibility of doubt and your unfounded certainty ‘Some of us already knew that, yes, largely by faith.’ To know anything by faith is a contradiction in my book. And the Bible is one big contradiction. This is the grating unsubstantiated certainty I spoke of.

Whether or not there was a conjuror or prophet called Jesus in some Roman Empire backwater who duped the locals has about as much to do with the price of fish as the existence of a supreme being.

Just because a human given divine powers would make a mess of things is also an irrelevance, and a lack of actual chaos does not indicate a ‘greater hand at play’. Such a conclusion does not follow at all, and seems like a leap of faith to me. That figures. :rolleyes: It is again the flawed thinking that there must be some greater meaning where there is none. A ‘God of the Gaps’ which is diminished progressively as science advances.

I fail to see how scientific evidence led anyone to conclude a ‘governing intelligence’. Creationists spend their time hunting for evidence of a designer when biological evidence points the other way. From vestigial limbs to extreme flatulence points towards the unintelligence of design in my opinion.:icon_lol:



I fail to see the relevance of Einstein either – as I recall he made it quite clear he was not a believer after many religious folk tried to infer that he was.

Enjoy :cwm12:

Unfortunately, I have no idea what your first sentence means but you stating definitively that "Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence" is an attempt at achieving an absolute and certain statement.

You are correct, I absolutely stated that faith does not require proof; notwithstanding that, many believers are certain that their is proof running alongside their faith. One of the challenges is that many athiests believe that only empirical data consititutes proof. I previously drew your attention to that and used your own cited observer, Dawkins, to illustrate that many highly cephalised individuals disagree with your assertion.

Please highlight where you illustrated possibility of doubt versus certainty and absolutes. Yes, I did say that many of us knew by faith that God exists. You said that to know by faith is a contradiction. To what. Are you suggestion that include faith and knowing in a single sentence is oxmoronic? If so how so?

The analogy of Bruce Almighty was just that and was not meant to be taken literally. I stated that it was a lighter touch.

The God of Gaps theology is something I do not subscribe to. I Understand why you brought it up but is fundamentally flawed as far as I am concerned for some very obvious reasons. God does not disappear from view when previously unexplained phenomena are given natural explanations.

I understand that you fail to see certain things, this brings you into conflict with some of Dawkins recent sayings and those of Frew et al.

You fail to see the relevance of Einstein? Perhaps you are unaware of much of what Einstein said about God. To be honest so am I but I found some snippets. For example: Einstein, famously, said that "God does NOT play dice". On the face of it Einstein believed in God.

Whether he did or not means nothing to me as I have my faith; I bring him up to discuss with you. The key things uncertain about Einstein are related to which god was he talking about? Clearly, Einstein wasn't a polytheist, since he used the singular term "God", rather than the plural "gods". It is not unreasonable to deduce therefore, that he was a montheist. He also stated explicitly that he believed in God.

Regarding my last post, I note with interest that you rather conveniently ignored my questions and comments pertaining to Dawkins' change of heart and most particularly shied away from attempting to produce empirical evidence that God does not exist. Surely you have this. Of course I know you don't. I'm speak rhetorically. So, if not, given that you do not talk in absolutes or certainties, particularly of the unfounded variety, you must be open to the possibility that God exists. Di ba?

[KeithD]

.... and without him our sat navs would not work......
So he's the one we blame when directed down a one-way street then? :D

I'm a fan of Einstein, just that he has been overrated. Hitler done more for the progression of science :cwm24:

[Sophie]

:
Now take a happy pill, and say a prayer that the good Lord helps Liverpool put 4 past Chelsea :icon_lol:

My husband says here that the lord listened to your prayer and liverpool scored 4 goals but too bad chelsea scored more :ARsurrender: :D

[Scouse]

Just because Einstein said there is a god, doesn't mean that there is one.

Voltaire once said "if there was no god it would be necessary to create him"

In other words some people need something to explain why we are here/what life is for.

Mikhila Bakunin wrote "if there was a god it would be necessary to abolish him"

He also wrote "People go to church for the same reasons they go to a tavern: to stupefy themselves, to forget their misery, to imagine themselves, for a few minutes anyway, free and happy."

Try reading "God and the state" by Bakunin or "Twelve Proofs of the Non-existence of God" by Sebastien Faure for a reasoned debate on the whole subject (and a bit more).

For me, religion is a form of oppression, to keep the poor in line and teach them not to question the establishment by promising a reward after death which is something they can not promise.

[JudyHon]

Unfortunately, I have no idea what your first sentence means but you stating definitively that "Christian or any other faith is not based upon evidence" is an attempt at achieving an absolute and certain statement.

You are correct,

Sorry but we are going round in circles here. I stand by my initial statements and don't think any of your criticisms diminish them.

I still think the possibility of a Christian God is so incredibly remote and the possibility that no such entity exists is almost certain - a ancient irrelevant fairy tale no more relevant than the Lock Ness Monster or Astrology. A useful mechanism for mass brain-washing that has perpetuated itself until recent enlightenment. I know what odds to bet on and I will stick with those, thanks.

I didn't bring up Dawkins as a champion, someone else did. I just pointed out one thing he said that I agreed with. That is why I didn't comment on other things he said. I note many of my comments were 'conveniently ignored' also.

I would love to navel gaze on this some more. But I am convinced I am right and you are wrong and that you are kidding yourself and clutching at straws - but that's your choice, so what's the point? I have a full time job, deadlines and an FLR application to get in asap:NoNo:, so those all take priority.:D

Feel free to continue trying to convert others to this outdated cause. Might want to work on the patronising tone though. I look forward to the day when religion is consigned to the scrapheap where it belongs and people don't need it as an emotional crutch.:icon_lol:

PS I have seen the above quote from a couple of different sources:

Einstein himself stated quite clearly that he did not believe in a personal God:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Pepe n Pilar]

So he's the one we blame when directed down a one-way street then? :D

I'm a fan of Einstein, just that he has been overrated. Hitler done more for the progression of science :cwm24:

I agree Boss Keith!...
All of the great scientific developments are the result of .....
Wars..:NoNo::Erm:

Sorry out of topic again....:doh

I love this thread it started on greetings to everyone by Happy_now on Easter Sunday, then religion, if there is a God or not in existence,.. then Einstein/science.....:D now... wars..No i won't start that thread...sorry...:Brick:

Cheers!....:)

[KeithD]

Thank God I'm a retard :Hammer:

[adam&chryss]

This great !!
Kepp it going ladies and gents :BouncyHappy:

[Mrs.JMajor]

This great !!
Kepp it going ladies and gents :BouncyHappy:

Wait for Aposhark ,he is just busy .......:icon_lol: it will beat the £ to Peso thread :icon_lol:

[keithAngel]

What sort of Soap do you all use I like coal tar myself:ARsurrender:

[Mrs.JMajor]

The soap just produce by APPRENTICE, (BBC ONE)

Keith why on the smilies there is no batting eyelashes:icon_lol:

[joebloggs]

What sort of Soap do you all use I like coal tar myself:ARsurrender:

that stuff stinks :vomit-smiley-011:

[Florge]

For the benefit of the other members and the Forum in general I would respectfully ask you to fight those terrible hordes some other time, some other place.

By now your dislike or hate for everything resembling some kind of faith, is well known to us all, and it would be really appreciated if you don't jump at people's throath again.
You do not have to participate in religion based threads

This thread started innocently by someone celebrating Easter in her own way, and escalated, near enough, into a full scale slanging match.

No member is bigger than the forum.

Unless is Keith...................




I totally agree!!! One Love everyone... ONE LOVE... we are all sharing the same world (and forum). :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[thejarvs]

yes you have to be quick or :piss2:

trouble is with little joe, he's not so little, thou 2 1/2, hes the height of a 4yr old :yikes:, now he can open the fridge door, reach most things out of the cupboards, turn everything on and off, and if he can't reach something he will carry or drag a chair, so he can :doh

LOL i know that feeling and Raffy is only 18 months :Help1:

As for the religious debate it has been fun to read, I'm a Budhist and as such respect everyones views, oppinions and life styles as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

Love for one and all, smile and be happy :)

mrjarv

[joebloggs]

I'm a Budhist and as such respect everyones views, oppinions and life styles as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

:xxgrinning--00xx3:
what religion should be about peace as with the Hare Krishna's :rolleyes:

[KeithD]

Religion is a means to power and money, and has been used for 1000's of years to control people via lack of knowledge and understanding. Belief does not need to be controlled by a religion.

[Piamed]

Sorry but we are going round in circles here. I stand by my initial statements and don't think any of your criticisms diminish them.

I still think the possibility of a Christian God is so incredibly remote and the possibility that no such entity exists is almost certain - a ancient irrelevant fairy tale no more relevant than the Lock Ness Monster or Astrology. A useful mechanism for mass brain-washing that has perpetuated itself until recent enlightenment. I know what odds to bet on and I will stick with those, thanks.

I didn't bring up Dawkins as a champion, someone else did. I just pointed out one thing he said that I agreed with. That is why I didn't comment on other things he said. I note many of my comments were 'conveniently ignored' also.

I would love to navel gaze on this some more. But I am convinced I am right and you are wrong and that you are kidding yourself and clutching at straws - but that's your choice, so what's the point? I have a full time job, deadlines and an FLR application to get in asap:NoNo:, so those all take priority.:D

Feel free to continue trying to convert others to this outdated cause. Might want to work on the patronising tone though. I look forward to the day when religion is consigned to the scrapheap where it belongs and people don't need it as an emotional crutch.:icon_lol:

PS I have seen the above quote from a couple of different sources:

Einstein himself stated quite clearly that he did not believe in a personal God:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." :xxgrinning--00xx3:

It is rather unfortunate that you repeat your same misguided assumption that I want to convert someone. I have explicitly said otherwise several times. I drew attention to what I believe are profound inconsistencies in some, albeit not all, of your statements, assertions and citations. You have responded to some of my challenges and shied away from others. You suggest I have avoided some of yor questions. I can't see that having reviewed your posts but that is ok.

Anyway, although you have conceded that God might exist, irrespective of your perception of the odds, I reiterate that I do not and would not attempt to tell someone that their approach to religion is wrong. This all started as I felt that someone initially expressed his views in a potentially insulting way to what I and some others believe in and strive to life by daily. You do not see a believer of any demonination suddenly hijack a thread and dismiss all athiests and non-believers as brainwashed, followers of myths, fairy-tales, nonsense, etc. I think those that do believe expect a similar courtesy. Challenge and discuss by all means but ridicule and assign all of the world's troubles to believers :NoNo::NoNo:

Anyway, subsequent to the intial attack, I drew a certain forumer's attention and yours to what I have already described above. I used the terms falwed, inconsistent, etc. You emulated their use and that is fine as they are critiques not insults. I hope you appreciate where I'm coming from. Any topic can be discussed by opposing parties so long as respect is shown. When we use terms like irrelevant, nonsense and fairy-tales, it is insulting and again, is inconsistent with your assertion that you do not speak in absolutes and certainties. I accept that you do not think so at all. fair enough.

If you have read some of my posts you will be clearly aware that most of my closest friends are of alternative religions and philosophical perspectives. When we discuss we stay on point and try to focus on only referring to what we can back up academically, that means qualitatively as well as quantitatively. We always find that irrespective of where our point of departure is, we have so much more in common that not. I learn from everyone I interact with and I thank you for what I have learned from you.

I do not know any set of moral codes that encourage people to be bad to each other whether religious or otherwise. So, in theory if individuals are following them as best they can it's obvious that we will find out we so much in common. One of the problems as i see it, is that so many, not all, unbelievers think that religion per se is bad and thus put up obstacles to alignment of our mutually good values, whereas you will see those with any type of faith saying that there is good in all of us irrespective.

I will say again, lest anyone fails to see it, what a proper practice of a faith does is bring like minded people together to encourage them in the development and practice of that faith. The church when used as I believe it is meant to be used, is simply a body of people following, as best they can, the same principles as God. It does not necessarily make them better than anyone else following alternative patterns.

Tolerance and understanding as always key. When I get the chance I read Islamic text, Buddhist, Jewish as well as some of the works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, etc. I do not focus on some of the contemporary and would'be philosophers such as Einstein and Dawkins as I find them often a little less humble about their failings than the pre-renaissance ones. Rudeness and intolerance aside, everyone has something to contribute, in my opinion, to the understanding of our world and our place within it.

Peace and good luck with your deadlines and FLR application.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Cordially!

[Piamed]

Religion is a means to power and money....
Has not worked for me so far!!!!

[joebloggs]

Has not worked for me so far!!!!

your doing alright toks :rolleyes:

but thats thru studying and hard work :D, while most other people are sat on their :butthead: watching tv and moaning about things, like having no money :doh

god or no god. god only knows :rolleyes:

[keithAngel]

Look can we get back on topic please Soap:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Piamed]

your doing alright toks :rolleyes:

but thats thru studying and hard work :D, while most other people are sat on their :butthead: watching tv and moaning about things, like having no money :doh

god or no god. god only knows :rolleyes:Haha!! Got Marikit here by my side watching me type with one finger. I thought being able to say, "look at me I can type with one finger was impressive". She does not look impressed. :NoNo:


Look can we get back on topic please Soap:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::)

[keithAngel]

that stuff stinks :vomit-smiley-011:

What do you use Joe:action-smiley-081::omg:

[Sim11UK]

Where's Aposhark???????...Has he been struck down by lightning? :omg:

[Mrs.JMajor]

Where's Aposhark???????...Has he been struck down by lightning? :omg:

He is busy preparing ..going to PI, to fetch the wife (Rochelyn)

[KeithD]

Has not worked for me so far!!!!
That's because your a follower, and not on top of the pyramid (scheme) :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Atheists have belief, they believe in no God, but that belief is not encompassed by a religion.

[joebloggs]

What do you use Joe:action-smiley-081::omg:

fairy soap, what else :rolleyes:

i suppose your soap keeps the mozzies away

[somebody]

fairy soap, what else :rolleyes:

i suppose your soap keeps the mozzies away

Fairy soap cake good at least we are back on Topic:D

[Sconnie]

Look can we get back on topic please Soap:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

"Confused ?? You will be"

[somebody]

"Confused ?? You will be"


Why did he order a Angel cake and end up with a fairy cake:Erm:

Talking of Cakes I had an Eccles cake today by eck it was good:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Sconnie]

We're on to cakes now ? thought we were talking soap.

I like Vanessa's home made rice cake.

[keithAngel]

Last word gambit:icon_lol:

[Piamed]

That's because your a follower, and not on top of the pyramid (scheme) :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Atheists have belief, they believe in no God, but that belief is not encompassed by a religion.


Reminds me of two guys talking:
1st guy:You're always the leader; I want to be a leader
2nd guy: Ok then
1st: I'm a leader!! Really? Really? I'm a leader?
2nd guy: Yeah sure
1st guy: Ok, what shall we do? :doh

[keithAngel]

:23_116_6[1]:



reminds me of two guys talking:
1st guy:you're always the leader; i want to be a leader
2nd guy: Ok then
1st: I'm a leader!! Really? Really? I'm a leader?
2nd guy: Yeah sure
1st guy: Ok, what shall we do? :doh

[KeithD]

On the 6th day God created woman.........and the next day :censored: ear plugs :D

[Piamed]

On the 6th day God created woman.........and the next day :censored: ear plugs :D

I totally disassociate myself from your comments; I want to sleep with both eyes closed tonight :)

[somebody]

Last word gambit:icon_lol:


Irish or Halloween?

Blimey now Chess has entered the thread:rolleyes:

[Sconnie]

i totally disassociate myself from your comments; i want to sleep with both eyes closed tonight :)

sleep ??????

[JudyHon]

Friedrich Nietzsche

'God is Dead'

But did he believe in an afterlife...:Erm::doh

[Bluebirdjones]

also said ...

"is man one of God's blunders or is God
one of man's blunders ?"



Essays (of at least 2,000 words) on the above to
be handed in by first thing Monday morning.

[Sophie]

On the 6th day God created woman.........and the next day :censored: ear plugs :D

:icon_lol: On the 8th day, loud speaker with sorround sound :icon_lol::icon_lol:

[aposhark]

.....A couple of the loudest athiest voices on this thread have called for proof that God exists.....

Piamed,
You can dress up whatever argument or point of view you have as a Christian.

I repeat, show me proof of a "God" and show me proof of a "Jesus".
Without proof, you have diddly-squat.

I will only engage in ideas that are as basic as this.

I am still waiting for your proof.

Where is it?

[aposhark]

:icon_lol::icon_lol:Funny guy! You are certainly not a man of the detail; I did notice that:)


:icon_lol::icon_lol:Funny guy! You are certainly not a man of proof, you only meander with irrelevant details.

Put your analytical brain to better use, and show us atheists some proof dear chap!

If you cannot, then you will not really succeed with your so called "Christanity".

People all over the world are turning away from Christianity, they see through the hogwash and remember the persecution and murders that the church caused.

[aposhark]

Yup, have no argument with that.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Live and let live in peace and harmony.

I have mentioned a couple of times Dom....Religious types do NOT live in peace and harmony. Far from it. Fundamentalism springs from this passion to tell everyone else how "correct" thay all are.

Why don't they leave people alone in their houses?
They knock on peoples' doors and hassle people with ideologies that have no basis in fact.
Why do they shout in the streets of the Uk, and why can't they see that almost everyone walks past without stopping.
Why don't people of religion just stay at home and mind their own business?

[aposhark]

Thank God I'm a retard :Hammer:

As he/she/it does not exist...........

[Mrs.JMajor]

welcome back Mike,nice to see you back :Hellooo: Am i right,youre flying to PI on sunday..is it ?

[aposhark]

Where's Aposhark???????...Has he been struck down by lightning? :omg:

Hello Mr Sim...
Have just done two seventeen hour days.
I am warming up, but fear time is against me as a certain Filipina is whispering from across the great divide.

Besides, this issue can and will go on while we have thoughts in our heads.

[aposhark]

welcome back Mike,nice to see you back :Hellooo: Am i right,youre flying to PI on sunday..is it ?

Yes dear.

I blame you Filipinas for being so attractive in every way.

Us British men are getting financially poorer by the day, but wealthier in spirit because of our ladies from those 7,000+ islands.............

As a Pink Floyd lyric included:

"One slip, and down the hole we fall
It seems to take no time at all
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life for life
A small regret, you won't forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight"

[Jay&Zobel]

I don’t think God has to prove his existence when everything around us points to something greater than just microscopic lego bricks. When you look in the mirror, or at your wife or your child look at the minor details of there very existence from the physical to the happiness they give you. But in just that, you can see there is so much more than just skin, bone & cells. There is life and in all life you can see the handy work of God.

It makes me happy to know there is more out there than just nothing. Because this life would be pointless if there was nothing more after it. The point of existing, the point of mans survival. The reasons we love, the reasons we work, the reason we live. It seems Pointless without there being something greater.

I’m just posting on here because I find your conversation interesting. Your worth more than you give yourselves credit for, and don’t underestimate your very existence.

Just so you don’t confuse God and Religion. God didn’t make religion man did. And what you may have been taught, may have been man’s ideals not God’s.

This debate could go on forever.
But we wont be here to find that out.
But we will find out if God exists or not when we Die.

If He doesn’t, then we just become dust and decay. But if He Does and we don’t believe than that’s a whole different story.

But that’s why we have the freedom to choose.

Blessings

Jay

[fred]

Sorry, religious debate is never-ending so no more for me.....




Wise words...Unfortunately,you went back on them..
And now look....

[aromulus]

Any God, that stands between me, and a bacon sarnie, ain't worth worshippin'.......:D

[Piamed]

Piamed,
You can dress up whatever argument or point of view you have as a Christian.

I repeat, show me proof of a "God" and show me proof of a "Jesus".
Without proof, you have diddly-squat.

I will only engage in ideas that are as basic as this.

I am still waiting for your proof.

Where is it?One of the things I tried to do is explore what proof is with you first as it apparent that your concept is proof is myopic compared to the rest of the worlds. The point being that if i show you proof you will only say its not prrof. Anyway, you did not want to understand what proof actually is beyond empirical data so I did not attempt to go into detail on proof. I don't want to keep going round and round with you not honestly conceding anything. I rather, tried to engage you on your level and ask you for proof that God and Jesus did not exist. Unsurprisingly, you have offered nothing.

But know this: most intellectual athiests who have examined the evidence now acknowledge that Jesus Christ existed. Arte you aware of this.

[QUOTE=aposhark;128616]:icon_lol::icon_lol:Funny guy! You are certainly not a man of proof, you only meander with irrelevant details.

Put your analytical brain to better use, and show us atheists some proof dear chap!QUOTE]Of course you would describe any attempt to critically review you wildly inconsistent and unsubstantiated claims as meandering.

OK, any attempt to delve deeply into your statements is a waste of time so let's get down to basics. If there is one thing I would like you to take from this post of mine it's this:

Show me empirical evidence that neither God nor Jesus ever existed! if you cannot perhaps you'll have the grace to admit that you cannot even meet your own criteria for engagement.

[KeithD]

It is a complete waste of time arguing over whether God exists or not, as we have no scientific proof either way.

The balance of probabilities are massively in favour of it being a 'Does not exist', but nevertheless not one shred of evidence either way.

And as I said, a believer in God holds a belief, a person who believes in no God, holds a belief. So both are believers.

[aromulus]

It is a complete waste of time arguing over whether God exists or not, as we have no scientific proof either way.

The balance of probabilities are massively in favour of it being a 'Does not exist', but nevertheless not one shred of evidence either way.

And as I said, a believer in God holds a belief, a person who believes in no God, holds a belief. So both are believers.

Amen to that...............:D

[JudyHon]

It is a complete waste of time arguing over whether God exists or not, as we have no scientific proof either way.

The balance of probabilities are massively in favour of it being a 'Does not exist', but nevertheless not one shred of evidence either way.

And as I said, a believer in God holds a belief, a person who believes in no God, holds a belief. So both are believers.

I'm still rooting for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He/She/It/They talks to me and tells me I mustn't pay my council tax or ever put the toilet seat down or I will be doomed to Spaghetti-Hell.:yikes::cwm24:

Hold on... Think that's the bailiffs at the door.

Hope Judy doesn't see this...:icon_lol:

[Piamed]

Some have suggested that historical data is unreliable, saying 2000 years is a long time. 2000 years is a long time, yet we don’t question the historical evidence of several other ancient personalities:

Cleopatra 69-30 BC
Julius Caesar 100-44 BC
Alexander the Great 356-323 BC
Aristotle 384-322 BC
Socrates 469-399 BC
Confucius 551-479 BC
The effect Jesus had on the world greatly surpasses that of anyone else in history.

Some try to argue that if Jesus ever existed then there would be much more historicl data, writings, etc. AS you may know, most records in the day were Roman or Greek. Jesus never addressed the Senate, he was margininalised and criminalised and received the most demeaning and vile punishment - crucifixtion. Jesus never travelled much also.

Significant historical data exists over Jesus' existence. Of course written by observers of the day. THIs is an attempt to highlight some proof Jesus existed. Can anyone provide at least even a tiny amount of proof that Jesus never existed? It will never happen as the naysayers cannot provide any data to support any of their attacks. All they can say is, "it was a long time ago and I don't think it's reliable". Yet they accept more scant evidence about people with less historical impact from an age long beore Jesus.

[KeithD]

The effect Jesus had on the world greatly surpasses that of anyone else in history.
Where is the proof?

[keithAngel]

Just so you don’t confuse God and Religion. God didn’t make religion man did. And what you may have been taught, may have been man’s ideals not God’s.

This debate could go on forever.
But we wont be here to find that out.
But we will find out if God exists or not when we Die.

If He doesn’t, then we just become dust and decay. But if He Does and we don’t believe than that’s a whole different story.

But that’s why we have the freedom to choose.

Blessings

Jay

Im sure if God exists he believes in me:Erm:

[KeithD]

Im sure if God exists he believes in me:Erm:
With a name like KEITH, I'm sure he does :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[keithAngel]

With a name like KEITH, I'm sure he does :xxgrinning--00xx3:
While your here on the question of soap??

[Piamed]

Where is the proof?

Jesus Christ, is the central figure of Christianity and is revered by most Christian churches as the Son of God and the incarnation of God. Islam considers Jesus a prophet, and he is an important figure in several other religions.

Scholars have used the historical method to develop probable reconstructions of Jesus' life. A great majority of biblical scholars and historians accept the historical existence of Jesus.

Historians generally describe Jesus as a healer who preached the restoration of God's kingdom. Most historians agree he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified by the Romans. Jewish and Roman authorities in Jerusalem were wary of Galilean patriots, many of whom advocated or launched violent resistance to Roman rule. Jesus, a charismatic leader regarded as a potential troublemaker, was executed on political charges.

Some Proof sources of Jesus' existence follow. Where are the proof sources He did not exist?

D. A. Carson, Douglas J. Moo and Leon Morris. An Introduction to the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992, 54, 56
^ Michael Grant, Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Scribner's, 1977, p. 71; John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, Doubleday, 1991–, vol. 1:214; E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin Books, 1993, pp. 10–11, and Ben Witherington III, "Primary Sources," Christian History 17 (1998) No. 3:12–20.
^ a b Funk, Robert W. and the Jesus Seminar. The acts of Jesus: the search for the authentic deeds of Jesus. HarperSanFrancisco. 1998. Introduction, pp. 1–40
^ Amy-Jill Levine, The Oxford History of the Biblical World, New York, Oxford University Press, 1999, p. 371, Chapter 10: Visions of Kingdoms: From Pompey to the First Jewish Revolt (63 BCE – 70 CE), M. Coogan et al. (eds.)
^ a b c d Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993. "Introduction," p. 1–30.
^ a b c Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "The Historical Jesus" pp. 255–260
^ a b c d e Crossan, John Dominic. The essential Jesus. Edison: Castle Books. 1998.
^ Examples of authors who argue the Jesus myth hypothesis: Thomas L. Thompson The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Jonathan Cape, Publisher, 2006); Michael Martin, The Case Against Christianity (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1991), 36–72; John Mackinnon Robertson
^ Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. Carson, et al., pp. 50–56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, pp. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, HarperCollins, 1991, pp. xi – xiii; Michael Grant, pp. 34–35, 78, 166, 200; Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred B. Knopf, 1999, pp. 6–7, 105–110, 232–234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12–13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100–102, 222; Ben Witherington III, pp. 12–20.
^ Though many historians may have certain reservations about the use of the Gospels for writing history, "even the most hesitant, however, will concede that we are probably on safe historical footing" concerning certain basic facts about the life of Jesus; Jo Ann H. Moran Cruz and Richard Gerberding, Medieval Worlds: An Introduction to European History Houghton Mifflin Company 2004, pp. 44–45.
^ Irving, Amy-Jill (1999). "The Oxford History of the Biblical World". written at New York. Oxford University Press. 370–371; Chapter 10: Visions of Kingdoms: From Pompey to the First Jewish Revolt (63 BCE – 70 CE). http://books.google.ca/books?id=zFhvECwNQD0C&pg=PA352&lpg=PA352&dq=%22Visions+of+Kingdoms%22++%22to+the+First+Jewish+Revolt%22&source=web&ots=-shOTzBx4w&sig=DAJ3jCyO9VyFKmHa-kMX-R8fhFA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA370,M1.
^ For instance Raymond E. Brown in The Birth of the Messiah (ISBN 0-385-05405-X), p. 9
^ Friedmann, Robert (1953). "Antitrinitarianism". Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A597.html. Retrieved on 2008-06-08.
^ James Leslie Houlden, "Jesus: The Complete Guide", Continuum International Publishing Group, 2005, ISBN 082648011X
^ Prof. Dr. Şaban Ali Düzgün, "Uncovering Islam: Questions and Answers about Islamic Beliefs and Teachings", Ankara: The Presidency of Religious Affairs Publishing, 2004
^ Compendium of Muslim Texts
^ Notes to the New International Version Study Bible 2008, p. 288. ISBN 9780310939184
^ per The Catholic Encyclopedia[1]
^ Edwin D. Freed, Stories of Jesus' Birth, (Continuum International, 2004), page 119.
^ Geza Vermes, The Nativity: History and Legend, London, Penguin, 2006, page 22.
^ James D. G. Dunn, Jesus Remembered, Eerdmans Publishing (2003), page 324.
^ Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) pp. 1-2
^ Martin A. Larson, The Story of Christian Origins (1977), p. 186-9.
^ Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) p. 167
^ Howard Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and its readers, Indiana University Press, p. 13
^ Luke states that John's ministry began in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas.
^ Theissen, Gerd; Merz, Annette (1998), The historical Jesus : a comprehensive guide, Minneapolis: Fortress Press, pp. 64–72, ISBN 0800631226, http://books.google.com/books?id=3ZU97DQMH6UC&pg=PA66&dq=Flavius+Josephus+and+Jesus&ei=s1J7Sc_kF6KIyASPsaG2Bg&client=firefox-a#PPA64,M1
^ Green, Joel B. (1997), The Gospel of Luke : new international commentary on the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., pp. 168, ISBN 0802823157, http://books.google.com/books?id=koYlW6IoOjMC&pg=PR85&dq=Joel+B.+Green,+The+Gospel+of+Luke,+(Eerdmans,+1997),+page+168&ei=pd98Sa_HA5HEMf7HnaQF&client=firefox-a#PPA168,M1
^ ""What the Old Testament Prophesied About the Messiah"". http://Christianity.com/Christian%20Foundations/Jesus/11541169/. Retrieved on 2007-10-11.
^ "synoptic". Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. 2nd ed. 1989.
^ a b c d e f g h i j Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985.
^ a b c d Ehrman, Bart D. Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why. HarperCollins, 2005. ISBN 978-0-06-073817-4
^ Durant, Will. Caesar and Christ. New York: Simon and Schuster. 1972
^ a b c d e f g h Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "John" pp. 302–310
^ Matthew 1:1–17
^ Luke 3:23–38
^ Joseph A. Fitzmyer, The Gospel According to Luke I–IX. Anchor Bible. Garden City: Doubleday, 1981, pp. 499–500; I. Howard Marshall, The Gospel of Luke (The New International Greek Testament Commentary). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978, p. 158;
^ Bienert, Wolfgang E. (2003). [9780664227210 "The Relatives of Jesus"]. in Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Robert McLachlan Wilson. New Testament Apocrypha: Gospels and Related Writings. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 487. 9780664227210.
^ Howard W. Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and Its Readers, Indiana University Press, 2003, p. 1
^ Matthew 13:55–56, Mark 6:3, and Galatians 1:19
^ The Greek word adelphos in these verses, often translated as brother, can refer to any familial relation, and most Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians translate the word as kinsman, brethren, or cousin in this context (see Perpetual virginity of Mary).
^ a b c d Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "Matthew" pp. 272–285
^ For Egypt: Matthew 2:13–23; For Tyre and sometimes Sidon:Matthew 15:21–28 and Mark 7:24–3
^ Early Christian accounts reflect some perplexity at Jesus being baptized, especially by a subordinate figure. See "Baptism of Christ". Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ "John, Gospel of." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ "John, Gospel of St." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ Mark 10:45
^ Luke 4:43
^ John 20:31.
^ Meier 1991 vol. 1:405
^ a b c Introduction. Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993.
^ "The Thompson Chain-Reference Study Bible NIV", published December 1999, B.B. Kirkbride Bible Co., Inc.; William Adler & Paul Tuffin, "The Chronography of George Synkellos: A Byzantine Chronicle of Universal History from the Creation", Oxford University Press (2002), p. 466
^ a b c d e f Funk, Robert W. and the Jesus Seminar. The acts of Jesus: the search for the authentic deeds of Jesus. HarperSanFrancisco. 1998.
^ Luke 14:26, Matthew 10:37. Luke contains a harsher version than the saying in Matthew, as does Thomas. Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993. p. 353

[KeithD]

The effect Jesus had on the world greatly surpasses that of anyone else in history.

Again. Where is the proof of this statement? It cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt.