Is it a sin??????

[Mrs Daddy]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:

[Jay&Zobel]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:


Please tell her not to correct a mistake with another mistake.

If she did make a mistake in life, she should accept responsibility for it.

And when it regards to someone's life (the baby), the baby should not be punished.

(As you have said, you are a religious person, then you know what the answer is...) Please do pray for her...

We'll pray for you & your friend.

[bornatbirth]

isnt it simple dont have sex!

oh already too late,why do you feel the bible knows best and is correct when it comes to making such an important decision?

i understand pro lifers but i cant understand why the bible can be so correct when it was written so long ago?

your friends decision should be made for the best interest of the child and the mother and not be fooled into a decision from the bible!

[Mrs Daddy]

isnt it simple dont have sex!

oh already too late,why do you feel the bible knows best and is correct when it comes to making such an important decision?

i understand pro lifers but i cant understand why the bible can be so correct when it was written so long ago?

your friends decision should be made for the best interest of the child and the mother and not be fooled into a decision from the bible!

You can say that coz you were not on a situation where you were molded to be religious and since then you`re get use to it and have this strong belief about God.I mean nothing`s wrong if you belive or not believe God you have this free will so to called in life and it your own choice really!

[Tawi2]

I think a child is a gift,its not a right its a blessing,my sister has two sister-in-laws,both career women,one of whom had several abortions in her youth,nowadays both are childless,what an empty existance if you cant hear a kid laugh or see pleasure in the face of something you helped create.I dont agree with abortion,isnt it easier just to use contraceptives?

[Mrs Daddy]

I know!Its a simple thing.If you are not ready to get pregnant then use contraceptions same as you Mr.Tawi2 I really didnt know why it happen like this if she doesnt want to end up like this she should have done her homework before comitting such a foolish thing as they said its a seconds of ecstacy and a lifelong resentment.

[bornatbirth]

I know!Its a simple thing.If you are not ready to get pregnant then use contraceptions same as you Mr.Tawi2 I really didnt know why it happen like this if she doesnt want to end up like this she should have done her homework before comitting such a foolish thing as they said its a seconds of ecstacy and a lifelong resentment.

well put mrs daddy :xxgrinning--00xx3:

and a life time resentment for who the child?

[Tawi2]

No resentment for a child :ARsurrender: if your going to be promiscuous use contraception,its not exactly rocket science,how old is the lady?At the end of the day its her decision,she is the one who has to live with it,but if she is a normal,healthy woman no matter what her financial circumstances,is an abortion the answer?Look into the eyes of an older barren lady,watch her pleasure when she sees a child,look at the longing...................Is an abrotion,depriving a child the gift of life,really the answer?

[JudyHon]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:

I think the most important thing is the welfare of the mother and whether the baby will be brought up into a stable and loving environment. If your friend really thinks that she is not ready or unable to provide such an environment i do not think it would be fair on the baby.

You can give her an advice but at the end of the day it's her decision to take and you need to support her as a friend whatever she decides.

[adam&chryss]

It`s a very emotional subject this one.
I know here in UK people are too ready to have an abortion as a cure for their stupidity. As mentioned its not rocket science to use contraception.
Prevention is better than a cure in my eyes.
If this person has been brought up with religion and sees abortion as wrong then, unless they are married, I guess pre-marital sex is also against religion.
Of course theres always more to the story and its not a position i`d like to be in.
I hope this person will come to the right decision for themselves and not anyone else or religion.

[Tiggers0608]

:Erm:

Having abortion or keeping the baby, thats really a big decision to make by the person carrying the child it rather than people saying whats right or wrong to do.

Having a baby yep i guess its not a right, its a previlege, sometimes we makes mistakes in life and we think getting rid of the unborn child will make it right :Erm: does it :Erm:

I have a friend who commit abortion and now shes sorry for it and regret it :NoNo:

And i have another friend who wants to have an abortion but didn't do it, now she's happy coz its a boy, only boy among 3 girls :icon_lol:

sin or no sin :Erm: ........ if she thinks its a sin having sex is a sin too :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: ........ :rolleyes: especially if ur not married .......... but if u don't belive in that , well means no sins committed :Erm: i think :icon_lol::D :rolleyes:

i guess ur friend needs to think about it more, rather than thinking if its a sin or not to commit abortion :Erm:

[Sophie]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:

I personally believe its a sin to do that based on what i've been taught growing up. But i'm in no position to judge anyone who would opt for that and resort to such thing. She probably has a valid reason for deciding to do so or it could be a matter of life and death. After all, we all have been given the freedom of choice and we all know the consequences that will come out from the decision we make as well. However, one mistake cannot be corrected by another mistake. You can advice her not to go through with it, but in the end, it's all up to her to decide for herself, after all, she herself will either suffer or benefit from the choice she make. It's between her and her conscience/faith/belief.

[joebloggs]

I think the most important thing is the welfare of the mother and whether the baby will be brought up into a stable and loving environment. If your friend really thinks that she is not ready or unable to provide such an environment i do not think it would be fair on the baby.

You can give her an advice but at the end of the day it's her decision to take and you need to support her as a friend whatever she decides.

I'm not religious, but i am pro life

if the mother doesn't want the baby, or can't give it a stable or loving environment then at least she can have the baby and give it up for adoption.

there is always the chance of regret later that she had an abortion, and no one can take that burden away from her, but if she has the baby and gives it up for adoption, the only regret she will have is wondering that kinda life the child had.. and at least the baby had a life :rolleyes:

[JudyHon]

I'm not religious, but i am pro life

if the mother doesn't want the baby, or can't give it a stable or loving environment then at least she can have the baby and give it up for adoption.

there is always the chance of regret later that she had an abortion, and no one can take that burden away from her, but if she has the baby and gives it up for adoption, the only regret she will have is wondering that kinda life the child had.. and at least the baby had a life :rolleyes:

It isn't a baby. It's a foetus. I am pro choice - to a degree - it depends on the stage of the foetus. However, I believe the woman's rights should come first. I know what a nightmare the adoption system is in the UK, and if Phils is anything like that, I would have reservations about adoption.

I am not advocating either way, but it may be that if she has the baby she is pressured not to put it up for adoption. We don't know the situation. It has to be her decision, and she should have a choice. Living with regret will clearly be important in her decision. She wouldn't be guilt-ridden all her days if she gave the baby away for adoption?

Just my opinion...

[KeithD]

Everything dies, so when is an irrelevance.

[Eljohno]

isnt it simple dont have sex!

oh already too late,why do you feel the bible knows best and is correct when it comes to making such an important decision?

i understand pro lifers but i cant understand why the bible can be so correct when it was written so long ago?

your friends decision should be made for the best interest of the child and the mother and not be fooled into a decision from the bible!

Although i agree with what God's Word says and that is one of the reasons i believe its wrong but even before i became a Christian i still held the same views that it should not happen and that was before i knew what God thought about it..

Surely it is wrong for the child to suffer when he/she is the innocent party in this..

If a woman does not want the child or cannot afford to have the child then surely then the right thing to do would be to give the baby away for adoption. Life is too precious to be wiped out so soon after it has been created..

[joebloggs]

I think the most important thing is the welfare of the mother and whether the baby will be brought up into a stable and loving environment. If your friend really thinks that she is not ready or unable to provide such an environment i do not think it would be fair on the baby.


It isn't a baby.
:Erm:

you can call it a foetus, i'll call it a baby, but tell me how many times have you heard someone having a 'miss carriage of a foetus' :NoNo:

and the procedure for an abortion, dilation and evacuation (d&e) :cwm24:

and the foetus has no rights, yet they are the innocent ones :doh

yes i would rather be pro-life than pro-death , I've seen enough death in my life..

[Jamesey]

It isn't a baby. It's a foetus. I am pro choice - to a degree - it depends on the stage of the foetus. However, I believe the woman's rights should come first.

Well done, JudyHon, a voice of reason not clouded by the religious mumbo jumbo. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Abortion should be a woman's right. It's an imperfect world and mistakes happen. It's easy for us to sit back and judge others, but for some women, abortion is the right solution.

[joebloggs]

Well done, JudyHon, a voice of reason not clouded by the religious mumbo jumbo. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Abortion should be a woman's right. It's an imperfect world and mistakes happen. It's easy for us to sit back and judge others, but for some women, abortion is the right solution.

i'm not religious, not one bit .. :doh

when you make a mistake you play a price, the price is 9 months, after that your free.

as for sitting back and judging others, who's speaking up for the unborn ? their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles ??

a babies heart starts beating within 24 days from conception, even before the woman knows she's pregnant..

rant other, i'm off to play with 2 1/2 yr old little joe :BouncyHappy: :Hellooo:

you owe your parents nothing, but your kids everything

peace to everyone, just don't start a fox hunting thread or a pro euro one :Brick:

:ARsurrender:

[Mrs Daddy]

I dont know guys...will update for more info`s

[Jamesey]

i'm not religious, not one bit .. :doh

when you make a mistake you play a price, the price is 9 months, after that your free.

as for sitting back and judging others, who's speaking up for the unborn ? their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles ??

a babies heart starts beating within 24 days from conception, even before the woman knows she's pregnant..



So a foetus (fertilised egg) should have the same "rights" as a new born baby?

If that's the case, what about the estimated 60 - 80% of fertilised eggs that fail to implant and are flushed, unnoticed, through a woman's normal menstrual flows?

Surely medical science should be doing something to address this appalling waste of human life!

Just a thought.....

(Interesting link: http://www.reason.com/news/show/34948.html)

[JudyHon]

It's pointless to argue semantics. For me it's a foetus now, but will become a baby if born.

Actually I don't think it's any of men's business, as we don't have to go through it so who are we judge? So often we don't have to pay for 'the mistake'. That's the problem I have with men who are pro-life trying to impose their beliefs on women. Some have even killed abortionists - hypocrites...:Rasp:

Pro-choice does not equal pro-death.:NoNo:

[joebloggs]

So a foetus (fertilised egg) should have the same "rights" as a new born baby?

If that's the case, what about the estimated 60 - 80% of fertilised eggs that fail to implant and are flushed, unnoticed, through a woman's normal menstrual flows?

Surely medical science should be doing something to address this appalling waste of human life!

Just a thought.....

(Interesting link: http://www.reason.com/news/show/34948.html)

tell me then, when does a foetus become a baby then, when its born ?

did you read the first sentence of the link, nature destroys human embryos, were talking about man destroying it, because someone doesn't want it, bit of a difference.

next time you google. have a look at a 24wk old foetus, because that's the legal limit to an abortion in the uk.

i'll give you a clue, they can open and close their eyes, a foetus or a baby ?

[joebloggs]

It's pointless to argue semantics. For me it's a foetus now, but will become a baby if born.

Actually I don't think it's any of men's business, as we don't have to go through it so who are we judge? So often we don't have to pay for 'the mistake'. That's the problem I have with men who are pro-life trying to impose their beliefs on women. Some have even killed abortionists - hypocrites...:Rasp:

Pro-choice does not equal pro-death.:NoNo:

as i said b4 take a look at a 24wk old 'foetus' and then tell me it's only a baby when born ?

a 22wk old 'foetus' born premature has lived..

pro-choice, yes she had a choice b4 she had sex. the word is 'no'
a mistake that cost a life.

i don't think i have ever heard a mother use the word 'foetus' instead of baby

when your a mom, maybe you'll change your view and realise how precious life is, coming from grandpa joe :rolleyes:

[KeithD]

A baby is a living breathing thing you hold in your arms, until it draws its first breath, it is not an independent living human, just a cellular growth that if the mothers hormones did not surpress the immune system it would be rejected as foreign.....hence a miscarriage.

[Gavanddal]

It's more important to bring up a child who is wanted, in a supportive home with 2 loving parents.
There's too many children brought into the world by mothers who can't support them or will bring them up in poverty.

If the parents situation in not ideal to bring a child into and may result in hardship or unhappiness then isn't it better to terminate the pregnancy.
Anyway, an early stage abortion is not a human person, just a cluster of cells. However, the time limit is too high in my opinion.

I find the eating of balut far more offensive than human abortion. If taking a life is a "mortal sin", how will we eat?

[joebloggs]

It's more important to bring up a child who is wanted, in a supportive home with 2 loving parents.
There's too many children brought into the world by mothers who can't support them or will bring them up in poverty.

If the parents situation in not ideal to bring a child into and may result in hardship or unhappiness then isn't it better to terminate the pregnancy.
Anyway, an early stage abortion is not a human person, just a cluster of cells. However, the time limit is too high in my opinion.

I find the eating of balut far more offensive than human abortion. If taking a life is a "mortal sin", how will we eat?

yes in an ideal world every family would be like the waltons :doh, about 40% of marriages end in divorce in the UK that's reality, so no supportive home with 2 loving parents for their children.

as for the parents situation not being ideal to bring a child into and may result in hardship or unhappiness, you could say that about me and my misses and little joe, hardship yes maybe, for who long ? things change, as for unhappiness :icon_lol::Hellooo::BouncyHappy:, you got that bit wrong :rolleyes:

as for being a cluster of cells, yes at 18 - 24 days with a beating heart :doh


and how many cannibals do you know ? :D

unhappy little joe wants me to put dora on the tv for him :doh


:ARsurrender: as for balut :NoNo: :cwm24: :Help1:

[Mrs Daddy]

Thats why she chooses to abort this baby bcoz it happened twice this time that she got pregnant even though she manage to deliver the first one but she thought she cant cope with another one (baby)with different father and at this time she isn`t in a proper relationship and she does`nt want to be in humiliation again.She said she did have sex with the said man for a reason but not this reason (getting pregnant) sad thing is the man is nowhere to be found that is why she is not keen to keep the baby!I have ask her how many months her tummy now and she said is two months!

[cheesewiz]

what a sad life:NoNo:

If we put GOD in the context that's it, its a never ending debate:doh But for us filipinos whose a believers we know that is not the right thing to do. Child is a precious gift form GOD.

But for her situation, the decision is up to her. Life is what we make it at the end of the day. Good luck to her.

[aposhark]

I'm not religious, but i am pro life

if the mother doesn't want the baby, or can't give it a stable or loving environment then at least she can have the baby and give it up for adoption.

there is always the chance of regret later that she had an abortion, and no one can take that burden away from her, but if she has the baby and gives it up for adoption, the only regret she will have is wondering that kinda life the child had.. and at least the baby had a life :rolleyes:

I have the same thoughts as Joe on this.

[David House]

To try to settle a debate as diversive as this one in a forum like this is pointless. The viewpoints are totally different. I have had a long running debate on the major USA RC church website forum on this subject and there is just no meeting of minds at all. They feel 100% sure that what they say is right and that anyone who has a different opinion is their enemy. The aggression is quite appalling at times.
No-one in their right mind likes abortion and in my view it should always be the action of very last resort, the least worst choice available. What I fail to understand is how the RC church can sustain a total ban upon abortion AND a total ban on non "natural" contraception. Great idea put about by guys who have no knowledge of the real world and (apparently) no sexual experience, based upon a dodgy interpretation of some words in a book written by various people in another age. Time for a re-think maybe?
To advise the lady in question is impossible in my opinion as this must be her decision. However, I strongly feel that no-one should even think of allowing their personal religious convictions to be introduced into any advice they might think of giving her. Limit advice to practical considerations only and leave moral judgements aside.

[Sophie]

Thats why she chooses to abort this baby bcoz it happened twice this time that she got pregnant even though she manage to deliver the first one but she thought she cant cope with another one (baby)with different father and at this time she isn`t in a proper relationship and she does`nt want to be in humiliation again.She said she did have sex with the said man for a reason but not this reason (getting pregnant) sad thing is the man is nowhere to be found that is why she is not keen to keep the baby!I have ask her how many months her tummy now and she said is two months!

Wow, what a predicament :Help1: It's just sad she already screwed up once and paid a big price for it and now she is in exactly thesame situation -talking about dejavu :Brick: What can i say, she should have been more careful and responsible the second time. She doesn't wanna go through thesame humiliation all over again but she brought that to herself. She seems to want to learn the hard way. I feel sorry she has to go through thesame thing, but that's the choice she made. Sometimes we cause tragedy to our lives by making bad choices and not thinking that a moment of indiscretion brings a lifetime of regret. I hope everything will work out well for your friend, whatever action she decides to carry out in the days to come.

[Mrs Daddy]

I really hope so after this very dark moment I hope and Pray she`ll manage to get over it.
She is just to gullable in believing what men told her.

[Sophie]

I really hope so after this very dark moment I hope and Pray she`ll manage to get over it.
She is just to gullable in believing what men told her.

I'm sure she'll manage and get over it mrs daddy. You'll be surprised at how tough we can all be in times of distress and in our darkest hour. I think that's the inner strength that naturally comes out in our desperate moments and for those who believe - its their faith in God that gives them enough reason to hang on and take courage. I just hope she'll learn her lesson this time and be careful in the future. And she should stop being too naive and too gullible and refuse to be a victim next time. And she should start being wise in choosing the kind of men she will date in the future. She should start thinking and looking after her own welfare and not just be blinded with false promises by opportunist men who will only take advantage of her. MEN WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING JUST TO GET LAID. So she should always use her head and think hard before doing anything, specially if it involves men.

[adam&chryss]

Thats why she chooses to abort this baby bcoz it happened twice this time that she got pregnant even though she manage to deliver the first one but she thought she cant cope with another one (baby)with different father and at this time she isn`t in a proper relationship and she does`nt want to be in humiliation again.She said she did have sex with the said man for a reason but not this reason (getting pregnant) sad thing is the man is nowhere to be found that is why she is not keen to keep the baby!I have ask her how many months her tummy now and she said is two months!

She should taught about that before having sex..
Anyway, in what i experienced. I got pregnant and it was a planned decision between me and my exboyfriend. I thought he will marry me.. but it went to nothing. I was in a big humiliation as my relatives are very strict and religious. I had no money, can't work because i need to be in bedrest till i give birth.. so emotionally, mentally and financially depressed during that time. At the same time I didn't know what life I can give my child when he's born.
Soon as I laid my eyes to my newborn son... My tears were nonstop falling.. Not because I was unhappy but full of joy and happiness. For me that's what they called 'Love at first sight'.
Since then I was determine to give my son everything I could... He change me alot and made me a better person.
I will never change my life if I have given a chance. I will still choose to get pregnant and feel the hardship I felt when I was pregnant with my first son.

Now with my second son, it's 'Love at first sight again'. Despite the pain i 've been through while giving birth and the pain (physical pain due to forceps delivery) I'm still having right now. I will surely do it again, whatever my case is.

So, I guess your friend is not a loving mother or really don't like babies at all that's why she's thinking about abortion.
It always made me think why there are women having abortion or mothers that are very cruel to their children... whatever the case is.
I love babies... It's nothing to do with God.

Well, as other saying it's her choice. If I'm wealthy enough I'm willing to adopt her baby soon as she give birth... Or maybe someone is willing here to adopt the baby.

[adam&chryss]

I wonder how many parents here see it as a foetus or a baby?
I see it as a baby and a life. Anything with a heartbeat is alive, correct?
Abortion cos people cant keep their legs shut is, in my eyes, one of the most apalling things a human can do.
Thats one thing I hate about this country is the :censored: attitude thats its ok to sleep around and be irresponsible cos , hey, you can have a pill or abortion to rectify your irresponsibility.
Having an abortion cos the baby is seriously ill or wouldnt have any standard of life isn`t the same as cos you cant be :butthead: to be responsible.

[Tawi2]

As soon as you see it moving on the scan its your baby,your already giving it a name,a character,talking to it,and about it,its part of you,part of your creation :xxgrinning--00xx3: None parents cant understand,but someone who has seen their own child on a screen knows that first feeling. :cwm38:

[Eljohno]

It's pointless to argue semantics. For me it's a foetus now, but will become a baby if born.

Actually I don't think it's any of men's business, as we don't have to go through it so who are we judge? So often we don't have to pay for 'the mistake'. That's the problem I have with men who are pro-life trying to impose their beliefs on women. Some have even killed abortionists - hypocrites...:Rasp:

Pro-choice does not equal pro-death.:NoNo:

That is very general to say that you have a problem with men who are pro-life as they have killed..

Both are equally bad - Those who kill innocent babies and those who kill abortionists..

How can you say a baby is simply a foetus until it reaches daylight that is just crazy.. When i saw the 1st scan of my beautiful daughter i never saw a foetus but the little body of a human being...

[Tawi2]

Got to endorse your comments John,as soon as you see it moving on the scan its your child,your baby :xxgrinning--00xx3:You start talking about it as a person,one of the family,you dont call it "The foetus" :icon_lol:

[lordfortesque]

it is said to be a sin in the eyes of god but at the end of the day the choice belongs to the mother and no one else she and she alone will have to carry the pain for the rest of her life

[jencha8569]

Please tell her not to correct a mistake with another mistake.

If she did make a mistake in life, she should accept responsibility for it.

And when it regards to someone's life (the baby), the baby should not be punished.

(As you have said, you are a religious person, then you know what the answer is...) Please do pray for her...

We'll pray for you & your friend.


I totally agree:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Abortion is not the answer to the hurdle things happening in her life.
Abortion is a no-no for me had friends asking for advise before
about having an abortion my answer was always "NO take responsibility
of ur actions."
Its a common thing having a baby out of wedlock or mistake at first
abortion is a choice but once you realize things by keeping the baby the descision will be worthy.
Babies give joy and pleasure that nothing will compare.

P.S."Life starts after conception begins"

[Florge]

A fetus still is life.. regardless of whether it is just a bunch of cells or with a heartbeat. Life exists already. So then, what does the universal natural law say? It says there's life in it. Life is life! It doesn't matter if the child is one second old, 2 minutes old, 2 weeks old, 2 months old or 5 years old. The life of a child is just as much life when he is only a few minutes old as when he is 5 years old. There is no difference on this "life scale" as far as the universe is concerned. One minute old is just as much as life in the universe as someone who is 25 years old.

I do not believe in abortion, although if the mother's health would be at risk, it would be another story but only at that instance.

This is also a very sensitive topic as this would touch base with religion and therefore, I cannot insist that it is a sin or not... some people here believe that it isn't a sin because we should have the right to decide on things like these. Abortion is an egotistic choice, a result of the desire to stay away from the burden of taking care of someone else and to go on with one’s worldly enjoyments. In such a case this is a sin, that is an ethical error that burdens one’s destiny. Any egotistic action is sin!

Abortion is an act of murder. If that is not a sin, then at the court of law, it is already an offense.

[Tawi2]

A simplistic view,condensed down into a few short words,if your not prepared to accept responsibility for your actions keep your panties on,the best contraceptive is a short word............NO!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Florge]

A simplistic view,condensed down into a few short words,if your not prepared to accept responsibility for your actions keep your panties on,the best contraceptive is a short word............NO!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Korek ka jan!!! :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

if your not prepared to accept responsibility for your actions keep your panties on,the best contraceptive is a short word............NO!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

:icon_lol: true, my misses doesn't want any more kids :cwm24:, 3 is a enuff she said :doh

so the misses took responsibility and went to the docs and had a contraceptive implanted in her arm that last 3 years, well still got 2 years to go then til little joe mark II comes along then :rolleyes:

:D

[David House]

A simplistic view,condensed down into a few short words,if your not prepared to accept responsibility for your actions keep your panties on,the best contraceptive is a short word............NO!:xxgrinning--00xx3:

This is the view I hear all the time on RC web forums and whilst in an ideal world, populated by ideal people it might work, the reality is actually very different. Most informed people accept that the world cannot sustain the current level of population growth. (Not the RC church mind you, who continue to insist that population control is a sin, and in addition, that the population of the Philippines is falling so that it is the duty of people there to increase the birth rate!).
Abstinence will never be the answer in the real world. It fails to recognise the genetically implanted driving force of most men. How can the average woman, already tired from family responsibilities, be expected to always say no and then get her partner to agree? Add ignorance and poverty and you have the real problem. The ONLY way is to accept that non natural contraception is OK. There are many of the RC faith who already accept that. Whether Rome will in time to save the Philippines is another question.

[xebec]

Part of the problem with citing "the word of god" or "religion" or "the church" on an issue like this is that abortion as an issue was not a major concern for the writers of the bible and churches differ in their tolerance of abortion.
To not allow for example a child under 10 who has been raped or abused by a family member to remain as a church member when she has had an abortion abhors me more than the act of abortion.
Each of us has to find their own moral bottom lines. My senses tell me that abortion should not be used as a form of contraception. However women do find themselves in the situation where they havent used contraception or it has failed. They must make and live with any decision they make. For the church to make judgements of eternal damnation - which if you believe in God should be in her hands only - I believe is evil

[tiN]

Imo, not agree with abortion at all!:NoNo::NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:

[jencha8569]

thats why the philippines has so many kids on the street .
no contraception avaliable or abortion is a sin cause of
the catholic church religious beliefs.when will they ever learn.
the catholic church has alot to answer for.
abortion causes great pain but sometimes it is the only answer.

[keithAngel]

.
She is just to gullable in believing what men told her.


Men is plural Mrs Daddy:omg:

[Mrs Daddy]

Men is plural Mrs Daddy:omg:

ooopppsss sorry not all except descent one.

[Mrs Daddy]

I feel so guilty as well guys as I have given her a financial support coz she has no one to turn to and I know that she`ll gonna use the money to visit an abortionist as she said she is still not having the bleeding.I hope I am not tolerating her.I havent told her to do it.But I am so scared that she is doing it on her own that she might end up harming herself.I am too scared for her!

[Sophie]

i feel so guilty as well guys as i have given her a financial support coz she has no one to turn to and i know that she`ll gonna use the money to visit an abortionist as she said she is still not having the bleeding.i hope i am not tolerating her.i havent told her to do it.but i am so scared that she is doing it on her own that she might end up harming herself.i am too scared for her!

i understand how heavy you must be feeling now mrs daddy. I know you are torned. As much as you want to be a friend to her by helping her carry out the action she wants to take eventhough you know its wrong, you also on the otherhand feel you have to do the right thing according to our christian values and beliefs.
I just wish her best and hope that whatever she decides to do, she won't end up harming herself.

[Jay&Zobel]

The above subject were discussed in this thread:
http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php?t=13603&highlight=obama

[pennybarry]

It's really sad if you know someone especially if she a churchgoer who did abortion and after she did it, she doesn't want to talk about it. I found it great pretending.:NoNo:

I have never experienced any contraceptions nor abortions as I'm pro-life and always wanted to have one. But never regret if I can't have one as most important for me is I didn't commit it and live with regret whilst you exist.

I wish your friend will be enlightened soon and not to commit such.

[KeithD]

If I'd been aborted (apart from the mess), you lot would still be in the Phil all lost and confused, and paying brokers......see how important I am....now give me some Rep! :icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

No resentment for a child :ARsurrender: if your going to be promiscuous use contraception,its not exactly rocket science,how old is the lady?At the end of the day its her decision,she is the one who has to live with it,but if she is a normal,healthy woman no matter what her financial circumstances,is an abortion the answer?Look into the eyes of an older barren lady,watch her pleasure when she sees a child,look at the longing...................Is an abrotion,depriving a child the gift of life,really the answer?

she is 25 years old!

[Florge]

abortion causes great pain but sometimes it is the only answer.

well, another answer would be to have the baby and give it up for adoption... a lot of childless couples out there who are willing to raise the baby as their own.. again, abortion IS the only answer, if and only IF, the mother's life is at stake.. other than that... I don't see abortion as an answer.. always an easy way out of the consequence of a bad decision/action/judgment. :doh

[Mrs Daddy]

Thanks all for your shared thoughts.I appreciate it much.Thanks again!

[trader dave]

I dont like to get involved in the what is life debate :rolleyes:

but the getting pregnant debate does make me cringe :Erm: ffs cant people stick a johny on it :icon_lol: i laugh and get angry everytime:furious3::furious3: i have never given a girl a baby without it being planned so whats other excuses:doh:doh ooooooo we was to worked up to stop :doh:doh get a life :Erm::Erm: ffs

then you get girls in the philippines at the moment want a baby from a foregner so its whiter skin and they believe the whiter the skin the better chance you have in life:doh:NoNo: :icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Florge]

then you get girls in the philippines at the moment want a baby from a foregner so its whiter skin and they believe the whiter the skin the better chance you have in life:doh:NoNo: :icon_lol::icon_lol:

now where did you get this idea?:NoNo:

[trader dave]

now where did you get this idea?:NoNo:

from everywhere :xxgrinning--00xx3: but not at your level ????/:D:Erm:

[JudyHon]

That is very general to say that you have a problem with men who are pro-life as they have killed..

Both are equally bad - Those who kill innocent babies and those who kill abortionists..

How can you say a baby is simply a foetus until it reaches daylight that is just crazy.. When i saw the 1st scan of my beautiful daughter i never saw a foetus but the little body of a human being...

I can call the unborn a foetus until it's born, because that is the dictionary definition.:doh It's not crazy, it's accurate. :doh :rolleyes:

I didn't say my problem with pro-life men is because they have killed. My problem with them is they can never be pregnant and therefore understand the feelings of pregnant women who are in a dire situation and cannot cope with raising a baby nor bare to give it away. They seem singularly inappropriate to impose and enforce.

Sorry, but to say those who murder abortionists are no worse than the abortionists is in my opinion extreme and worrying. And yes they are hypocrites. Pro-life murders.:doh And 'baby killers' is a specious term.

I am not advocating abortion but I think the women's rights trumps the foetus', and that there is no equivalence in the early stages of pregnancy. It should be an absolute last resort and follow counselling. But I believe it is the woman's right at the end of the day. And the consequences where it is illegal can be horrific.:NoNo:

Once the foetus reaches the stage where it is technically able to survive without the mother if born prematurely is where I would try to draw the line, but clearly this is a grey area, and moves with time.

[Mrs Daddy]

thanks judy for your views.Its very much appreciated and to each and everyone of you here guys.She did the said act for a resaon and that reason is for her and her alone.No matter how we react to this thing but we cannot do anything about it as its her own free will.

[bornatbirth]

thanks judy for your views.Its very much appreciated and to each and everyone of you here guys.She did the said act for a resaon and that reason is for her and her alone.No matter how we react to this thing but we cannot do anything about it as its her own free will.

and we should try to understand how shes feeling and the reason why?

we shouldnt judge others :)

[keithAngel]

Every sperm is wanted:xxgrinning--00xx3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p35J2MsALlo

[joebloggs]

I can call the unborn a foetus until it's born, because that is the dictionary definition.:doh It's not crazy, it's accurate. :doh :rolleyes:



in humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization, and from then it's called a foetus.

but I've never heard a parent call it a foetus :doh they call it a baby, even my doc misses called little joe a baby when she was pregnant with him, not a foetus :doh

[adam&chryss]

in humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization, and from then it's called a foetus.

but I've never heard a parent call it a foetus :doh they call it a baby, even my doc misses called little joe a baby when she was pregnant with him, not a foetus :doh

100% agree :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Whatever the dictionary says about what fetus means. For me, soon as i got pregnant he's already a baby. I can't remember also that my OB doctor call it a fetus.

[Mrs Daddy]

Every sperm is wanted:xxgrinning--00xx3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p35J2MsALlo

oh watta video:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Florge]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136186]from everywhere :xxgrinning--00xx3: but not at your level ????/:D:Erm:[/QUOTE

And what Level is that?

The last time I had the chance to talk to my lady friends, my househelp and laundry lady, my former students, coworkers, as well as my neighbors in the slums where I lived... they never thought that having white skin or having a child from a foreigner would give them a better chance in life. Actually, they believe that a foreign bf will leave them after getting them pregnant just like the many EuroAsian, FilAm, and FilJap children here, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with their Filipina when they go back to their motherland.

:NoNo:

[JudyHon]

in humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization, and from then it's called a foetus.

but I've never heard a parent call it a foetus :doh they call it a baby, even my doc misses called little joe a baby when she was pregnant with him, not a foetus :doh

My Mum still insists on calling me her ‘baby boy’ despite the fact that I am 37 years old, 6’ 4’’ and 200 pounds, especially after she has had a few glasses of red, and Judy or my friends are around. Part of her probably sees me that way and always will. It doesn’t change the reality. When people are close to or dealing with a personal issue they often use emotive or euphemistic terms, and that’s fine. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

But in the context of such a sensitive and moral issue as abortion, I think use of the emotive ‘baby’ misnomer is often a ploy of the pro-life lobby - of transference – and to suggest that removing a blastocyte is equivalent to ‘baby killing’ is a fallacy to me. But not to many…:yikes:

[pennybarry]

I feel so guilty as well guys as I have given her a financial support coz she has no one to turn to and I know that she`ll gonna use the money to visit an abortionist as she said she is still not having the bleeding.I hope I am not tolerating her.I havent told her to do it.But I am so scared that she is doing it on her own that she might end up harming herself.I am too scared for her!

Bleeding is dangerous:D That will cause your haemoglobin level very low

[eljean]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:

That is such a very hard decision to make but what did you tell her anyway?yes, for me it is a sin as it is in one in the ten commandments

"Thou shall not kill"

It's not your fault whatever she decide for the baby and also you can't really judge the person who would go for it like those who got rape or fallin pregnant by their own father you can only give your own opinion on it...there must be a reason why she has to do it but going through this kind of thing would really haunt you for the rest of your life.

[Mrs Daddy]

Bleeding is dangerous:D That will cause your haemoglobin level very low

when I Phoned she seems to be getting back her strenght.I hope and pray she will be perfectly fine!healthwise:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

[Mrs Daddy]

That is such a very hard decision to make but what did you tell her anyway?yes, for me it is a sin as it is in one in the ten commandments

"Thou shall not kill"

It's not your fault whatever she decide for the baby and also you can't really judge the person who would go for it like those who got rape or fallin pregnant by their own father you can only give your own opinion on it...there must be a reason why she has to do it but going through this kind of thing would really haunt you for the rest of your life.

I sometimes thought why it wasnt me who got pregnant:doh:doh:doh

[trader dave]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136186]from everywhere :xxgrinning--00xx3: but not at your level ????/:D:Erm:[/QUOTE

And what Level is that?

The last time I had the chance to talk to my lady friends, my househelp and laundry lady, my former students, coworkers, as well as my neighbors in the slums where I lived... they never thought that having white skin or having a child from a foreigner would give them a better chance in life. Actually, they believe that a foreign bf will leave them after getting them pregnant just like the many EuroAsian, FilAm, and FilJap children here, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with their Filipina when they go back to their motherland.

:NoNo:

:doh:doh ok right you are educated come from a well off background? you have a nice job ,live in a nice area ??? YES :xxgrinning--00xx3:
DONT TELL ME YOU LIVE IN A SLUM AREA squatter area ??????? -----------

TO QUOTE YOU---

my lady friends, my househelp and laundry lady, my former students, coworkers, as well as my neighbors in the slums where I lived...

LETS PUT IT TO YOU VERY BLUNTLY -you have never had to sell your body to buy a tin of babies milk or because your child is very ill HAVE YOU ???

its a well known fact that if you are darker skinned you possibly are poor you work in the fields --if you are paler skin you more than likely are educated and work in a office ?????// every filipina i know hides under a umbrella as soon as the sun shines because doesnt want to get any browner:D:D:D:icon_lol: and if you are fat you are well fed


THATS THE DIFFERENT LEVEL I AM TALKING ABOUT

if you dont believe what i am telling you --me and my fiancee will be in manila this coming weekend you discuss it with her she will tell about the different classes in your country because you are obviously out of touch with it :Hellooo::Hellooo::Erm:

[bornatbirth]

or it depends who you talk too?

i have even seem light skinned maids and dark skinned wifes,so if the light skinned maid is so smart why is she working for the dark skinned lady and before you say it she had a foreigner hubby?

there are poor filipinos of different colours ther'ye not all dark skinned?

[Florge]

[QUOTE=Florge;136367]

:doh:doh ok right you are educated come from a well off background? you have a nice job ,live in a nice area ??? YES :xxgrinning--00xx3:
DONT TELL ME YOU LIVE IN A SLUM AREA squatter area ??????? -----------

TO QUOTE YOU---

my lady friends, my househelp and laundry lady, my former students, coworkers, as well as my neighbors in the slums where I lived...

LETS PUT IT TO YOU VERY BLUNTLY -you have never had to sell your body to buy a tin of babies milk or because your child is very ill HAVE YOU ???

its a well known fact that if you are darker skinned you possibly are poor you work in the fields --if you are paler skin you more than likely are educated and work in a office ?????// every filipina i know hides under a umbrella as soon as the sun shines because doesnt want to get any browner:D:D:D:icon_lol: and if you are fat you are well fed


THATS THE DIFFERENT LEVEL I AM TALKING ABOUT

if you dont believe what i am telling you --me and my fiancee will be in manila this coming weekend you discuss it with her she will tell about the different classes in your country because you are obviously out of touch with it :Hellooo::Hellooo::Erm:

errrrmmm... I am not fair-skinned.. I am dark-skinned, but I love the way I look... and I do live in the slums... my neighbors are recipients of Gawad Kalinga (I hope you know what that is).

AND TO PUT IT TO YOU BLUNTLY AS WELL, even if we're a 3rd-world country, not all Pinays marry foreigners because we think they're rich.. there are Pinays who marry foreigners because they truly love them.. as most of the Pinays here would agree with me on that.

I do not have to sell my body because there are other means of earning income rather than doing it.. it is against my values.. I have worked my way to where I am now so I didn't have to sell my body for baby's milk and I do not have to do that as I do not have a child yet... If you have met these types of Filipinas, please do not generalize everyone of us...

Your fiancee need not discuss this with me as I am in touch with ALL "levels" and I do not stereotype women. I have volunteered to help Gabriella and mind you, the 'Level" you're saying is just a small portion of the entire whole. So I would appreciate it very much if you would not pluralize your comments as it is so belittling and offensive. Maybe you and your fiancee is just exposed to the level that you know now?

Anyway, this is a thread about abortion.. and let's keep it that way... it's such a low blow stereotyping Pinays wanting to marry foreigners to get a better life... not everyone. :angry:

[trader dave]

or it depends who you talk too?

i have even seem light skinned maids and dark skinned wifes,so if the light skinned maid is so smart why is she working for the dark skinned lady and before you say it she had a foreigner hubby?

there are poor filipinos of different colours ther'ye not all dark skinned?

i agree with that :xxgrinning--00xx3:

the point is a foregner does not care about colour of skin or social background a good partner can come from anywhere :xxgrinning--00xx3:

but if you talk to a pilipino or chinese they are more inclined to marry someone from the same LEVEL social background:cwm34:

[joebloggs]

I feel so guilty as well guys as I have given her a financial support coz she has no one to turn to and I know that she`ll gonna use the money to visit an abortionist as she said she is still not having the bleeding.I hope I am not tolerating her.I havent told her to do it.But I am so scared that she is doing it on her own that she might end up harming herself.I am too scared for her!

:NoNo: my misses has seen many abortions carried out in hospital in the phils, and even helped in some, because of botched back street abortions. where the woman has lost a lot of blood and has had to be taken to hospital, not something you want to happen to anyone, also there is a risk she will never be able to have babies again :NoNo:

[Sophie]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136415]

errrrmmm... I am not fair-skinned.. I am dark-skinned, but I love the way I look... and I do live in the slums... my neighbors are recipients of Gawad Kalinga (I hope you know what that is).

AND TO PUT IT TO YOU BLUNTLY AS WELL, even if we're a 3rd-world country, not all Pinays marry foreigners because we think they're rich.. there are Pinays who marry foreigners because they truly love them.. as most of the Pinays here would agree with me on that.

I do not have to sell my body because there are other means of earning income rather than doing it.. it is against my values.. I have worked my way to where I am now so I didn't have to sell my body for baby's milk and I do not have to do that as I do not have a child yet... If you have met these types of Filipinas, please do not generalize everyone of us...

Your fiancee need not discuss this with me as I am in touch with ALL "levels" and I do not stereotype women. I have volunteered to help Gabriella and mind you, the 'Level" you're saying is just a small portion of the entire whole. So I would appreciate it very much if you would not pluralize your comments as it is so belittling and offensive. Maybe you and your fiancee is just exposed to the level that you know now?

Anyway, this is a thread about abortion.. and let's keep it that way... it's such a low blow stereotyping Pinays wanting to marry foreigners to get a better life... not everyone. :angry:

WOW, WELL PUT FLORGE :xxgrinning--00xx3: I TOTALLY AGREE :xxgrinning--00xx3: VERY WELL SAID :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[adam&chryss]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136415]

errrrmmm... I am not fair-skinned.. I am dark-skinned, but I love the way I look... and I do live in the slums... my neighbors are recipients of Gawad Kalinga (I hope you know what that is).

AND TO PUT IT TO YOU BLUNTLY AS WELL, even if we're a 3rd-world country, not all Pinays marry foreigners because we think they're rich.. there are Pinays who marry foreigners because they truly love them.. as most of the Pinays here would agree with me on that.

I do not have to sell my body because there are other means of earning income rather than doing it.. it is against my values.. I have worked my way to where I am now so I didn't have to sell my body for baby's milk and I do not have to do that as I do not have a child yet... If you have met these types of Filipinas, please do not generalize everyone of us...

Your fiancee need not discuss this with me as I am in touch with ALL "levels" and I do not stereotype women. I have volunteered to help Gabriella and mind you, the 'Level" you're saying is just a small portion of the entire whole. So I would appreciate it very much if you would not pluralize your comments as it is so belittling and offensive. Maybe you and your fiancee is just exposed to the level that you know now?

Anyway, this is a thread about abortion.. and let's keep it that way... it's such a low blow stereotyping Pinays wanting to marry foreigners to get a better life... not everyone. :angry:

I agree not everyone, also not everyone is a loving wife and honest churchgoer either.
Every country has good and bad, fact.
But you`ve got to admit, theres a :censored: load of skin "whitening" products available in Phil. Whether its cos they beleive it`ll make them more succesful or not theres loads of filipinas that want a whiter skin.
Thats a fact or there wouldnt be these products on the shelves or all the commercials on the TV.
That always makes me laugh :icon_lol: I tell Chryss one of the things I like about her is the colour of her skin. I dont see whether light or dark shows wealth but thats just my opinion.
On the subject of abortions and such. I heard people say that the church should say that contraception is ok and that would help reduce the over population of places like Phil.
Well working by that theory how about if the church announces that stealing, pickpocketing is a sin?
Would that stop all the thieves/snatchers there?
I think we all know it wont.......

[Mrs Daddy]

Talking about skin whitener amazing how some of us not satisfied with what we have got skin color wise.I mean I must admit I used to be one of them using whitening lotion and soap but when my hubby told me how nice my color is and she said that girls in uk wanting to be tan and I didn`t believe him but then when I discovered it myself that he was right that changed my views and make me think how fool I am to be victimized by this belief that white is beautiful.And to Mr.trader dave I really do believe when I was younger that if a filipina woman marries a caucasian they`ll be having a beautiful children but it never came across my mind that filipina wanting to have kids from foriegner so that in return their kids will have a better life because they probably a bit prettier.But mind you I have a neighbour who happened to have this american bf but when that guy found out that she was pregnant he abandoned her and now the kid is about on his teen and never meet his father.Its a sad story but It happened!!!

[Florge]

That's true about skin whitening... but the market trend now is leading toward getting clearer, softer skin.. and age-defying skin products.. I think the local Pinays are learning that they need to love their skin... for the Gen Y at least... since they see on tv that their fave actresses are getting a tan.

[Happy_Now]

Is Abortion a mortal sin??????
I mean when I was younger and grew up with religious parents and did go to church often.Growing up in a religious country somehow giving us a strong belief that killing of human life is a mortal sin...

I am not pregnant but someone`s very close to me is undegoing such hurdle in life and thinking that this is the best way out.But If its really true that there`s heaven and hell I dont wanna do such a thing that makes me go to hell:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

I dont know What to advice her but she is very determined to get rid of the foetus.May God forgive us!:NoNo::bigcry::bigcry:

mY FRIEND, Abortion is a big SIN
http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php

[Happy_Now]

What does God say about abortion? Do the millions of abortions that have taken place in this land bother Him? Is a fetus a "real person" in the eyes of God? If so, where does that leave us? If an unborn life is truly just a mere mass of fetal tissue to God, we should want to know. If He considers the life of the woman more important than her unborn child, we should want to know. And if He does consider that unborn life a "real person", and just as important as the life of the mother that bears it, we most certainly should want to know. After all, we are all accountable to God not only for our individual lives, but also as a generation and a nation

THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Throughout the Bible God has plenty to say about the taking of an innocent life. Most people in our nation, though they may not be familiar with all of the Ten Commandments, know that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is listed there somewhere. The word "kill" in this instance, specifically refers to "murder"--a premeditated and deliberate act of taking someone's life. It is different than other forms of taking a life, which could be accidental, or in self-defense. God has different laws regarding different sorts of death. But He continually opposes and speaks against murder, especially murder of the innocent.
Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land and atonement cannot be made for the land on which the blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live. Numbers 35:33-34
God's judgement against the killing of an innocent life grows out of His love for humankind. The crime of murder is not only an offense against the sanctity of life, it is a pollutant upon the very land we live. God wants to spare us of the variety of ways this pollution is manifested. When the land becomes defiled with sin, people cry out "where is God?" yet they refuse to take responsibility for breaking His laws which were only given to us for our protection and good. Each sin that we commit is not merely an isolated incident, but will set off a chain reaction of other sins if not dealt with. Since the legalization of abortion for instance, child abuse has increased over 1000%. This is the exact opposite of what those who legalized abortion thought it would do since it was assumed that only children who were initially unwanted were abused.
In Psalm 106 God speaks specifically against killing innocent children and babies. He says of His people: They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood.
Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief how anyone, especially someone who claimed to follow God, could sacrifice their child to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol is anything that we worship before God. Today, children are sacrificed to the idols of selfishness, convenience, "freedom," and ambition--sacrificed to the very demonic powers that are behind such idols. Times really haven't changed that much. Human nature hasn't changed, nor has Satan's schemes against that which God considered so precious that He died to redeem it--human life

WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN?
One may argue here that they agree that it is wrong to murder, but they still don't see how a fetus necessarily qualifies as a human being. Perhaps God doesn't feel the same way about a very young fetus, as He does an older fetus, a newborn, or a 50-year-old. It may be a different issue altogether with Him. Does the Bible say anything specifically about unborn children?
In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!
It has been stated If the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But God can

A SCIENTIFIC VIEW
Just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.
Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated "We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing." Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?
"In the tiny, almost invisible thirty two cell blastocyst--in that one gram or so of tissue--there is a physical potential and moral destiny unparalleled in our universe. Next to it, a gram of plutonium is a triviality: plutonium cannot compose a symphony, cannot cure cancer, cannot plan our course to the stars". -Bernard Nathanson, M.D. and former abortionist

A SPIRITUAL VIEW
God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother's womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the "fetal tissue" she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God's voice to the nations, though she would never have known.
The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV
Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14
The above verses are only a sampling of the many Biblical references we find to life inside the mother's womb. From them, it is clear that life begins when God creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way humans tend to. According to the above passages, even the tiniest embryo is the subject of His love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence, whether we are yet unborn, a young woman in the prime of her life, or an old man on his deathbed. He is patient with all of us, longing to bring each one of us into His maturity.
DO WE LOOK LIKE GOD?
To destroy innocent human life is a crime against God, and a rejection of the truth that we were made in His image. Everything in the universe belongs to Him anyway. The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world and ALL who live in it. Psalm 24:1 Our own lives are a precious gift given to us, but ultimately we belong to God! We are His possessions; we have merely been granted stewardship over our lives, talents, money, time, the earth we live on and the things we "own." Though children pass through us they are not ours, anymore that we are property of our parents. Each of us has been given the gift of life and freedom, for which we are responsible and accountable to God. None of us has the right to deny that same gift to an unborn person. It is an honor to carry that powerful force of another life within our very bodies-- a life made in the very image of God! (Genesis 5:1-2)
God is no respecter of persons. If He knew Jeremiah in the womb, He knew you too. Do you believe that God lovingly fashioned you and loves you dearly? Do you believe that He has had a plan for your life from the beginning of time? A plan that none other can fulfill in quite the same way you can? That you came to this earth "trailing clouds of glory?" Or do you believe in your heart that you were a mere "accident" and that God has no personal concern for you or your life? Is it easier to believe that you are just a highly evolved animal? An animal (especially an undeveloped one) may certainly be easier to dispose of. It seems somehow even "natural," as the laws of nature lend themselves to the survival of the strong and the equipped. Yet it seems doubtful that even an animal would come up with a way to deliberately kill it's unborn offspring.
Even the jackals offer their breasts to nurse their young, but my people have become heartless like ostriches in the desert. Lamentations 4:3
Oh, let us turn from our heartlessness and defend the sanctity of human life! Out of respect for God, let us offer mercy and compassion to every life around us, born or unborn. Let us be givers of life instead of takers of life

AM I MY BROTHER'S KEEPER?
Every 20 seconds another baby is aborted in this country, yet very few seem to notice. Statistically, one out of every three of us will die by abortion, and we will never know what we lost in those lives. Our country goes along its way leaving lawmakers to decide how the carnage should continue. We've bought into the lie that those we dispose of are not real people. It is the same old lie that was used to keep slavery legal, and to exterminate masses of peoples in holocausts all over the world. We should be able to see through it by now, but as usual, most of us let circumstances and the current cultural climate dictate to us what is acceptable or not. Yet God tells us to: Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
In our society today we face a myriad of social problems as a result of our hypocrisy. Most of us have had to become somewhat doubleminded just to keep a vestige of sanity. We put warnings on cigarettes and alcohol, that their consumption is dangerous to an unborn child. Yet we deem it perfectly legal, even "responsible" for a mother to have a doctor poison that same child inside her, or rip it to shreds with a surgical instrument. We might charge a man who kills a pregnant woman with a double homicide, yet what if that woman was on her way to the abortion clinic to dispose of her baby anyway? Do we then charge him with a single homicide? Why do 21 states have legislation to delay a death sentence imposed against a pregnant woman who is guilty of a crime, until after she delivers her baby? If we really believed what we said about the unborn child being a mere blob of tissue, it would seem that no one would mind if that baby died along with the mother in the electric chair.
We wonder how respectable college kids can throw their newborn baby into a dumpster, yet what are we supposed to think? We're the ones who told them that it is irresponsible to raise a child at their young age and that an "unwanted child" (which is a fallacy) is better off dead. They are not to blame as much as the media, the lawmakers, the abortion counselors, the doctors, and the voters. When a woman can have an abortion on a nine month old unborn child, and yet a week later be tried for murder if she disposed of the child outside the womb (which at that point, would seem to be a much easier and practical way to dispose of the baby) what are the young people of this nation supposed to think? Do we really have to wonder at the lack of respect for human life that we see around us?
Evil prevails when good men, in the name of freedom, do nothing. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil. I Peter 2:16 I Peter 2:16 Very few of us would argue that crack cocaine, or rape should be legal simply because people are going to do it anyway, yet that is the argument that is applied to abortion. As a nation, our morals and ethics vacillate between honor and convenience, integrity and greed. This doublemindedness has become a cancer eating away at the very heart of our nation.
History will speak of our abortion as a mark of the absolute decadence of our era. There will come a time when we will look back on abortion with the same shame we do now towards our evil treatment of the American Indians, and the blight of slavery. We wonder why history continues to repeat itself. It is because evil starts in little ways--it starts as a seemingly innocent thought in the heart of man. Sin always seems practical, necessary, or even "cute" in it's initial stages. It is only in hindsight that we can see just how atrocious those massive exterminations were and how they went against the very core of what the United States was supposed to be. Yet, we have no right to condemn previous generations for the same deeds we commit today. Then, as now, the masses simply went along with whatever was the popular opinion. In regard to slavery, it was even argued that the government didn't have a right to tell people whether they could own slaves or not... That it was a personal choice to be made and that freedom of choice is what our country is all about. Only in that case they forgot the rights of one whole people group. Sound familiar?
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?" The Lord said. "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground which opened it's mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand." Genesis 4:9-11
As a nation, we must repent for the heartlessness we have displayed to the most helpless members of our culture. Though God is merciful, He is also just. He cannot ignore the cries of the blood that has soaked our ground and stained our hands. We are bringing ourselves under a curse, but do not have the eyes to see it. We only see the fruit of that curse and we wonder what went wrong. Like Cain, our ears have become deafened to the cries of those we have murdered

TRUE FREEDOM
There are too many of us who prefer to let the media do our thinking for us. Should we disagree, many of us are too intimidated to ever speak out with conviction. As we let time go by, our godly convictions begin to slip away and we become numb. Eventually, we may even support that which we had earlier condemned. This is called the "searing of a conscience." It happened in Hitler's Germany and it is happening today. How can we bring a dead conscience back to life? How can we know the difference between right and wrong? As was just established, we cannot merely "listen to our heart" and follow what seems best at the time. Some of the most horrifying deeds in history have been done by those who were following whatever moral code was most convenient at the time. Freedom is not doing whatever suits our fancy at the moment. That will only bring slavery and sorrow to our souls. True freedom is having the power to know what is right and to choose accordingly. But how can we choose, if we do not know? How can we obtain true freedom?
You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free. John 8:32
We must cleanse our minds by the washing with the water through the WORD. (Ephesians 5:26) God's WORD is the Bible--ancient, yet ageless and seething with life. It will literally clean our thinking and bring life to our sin-deadened minds so we can see what He sees and feel what He feels. It will reveal our very thoughts to ourselves.
For the WORD of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
Respect for God, His creation, and His Holy WORD, is the only way we will ever find true freedom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. Proverbs 1:7 Wisdom and compassion cannot be found outside of God for He is wisdom and He is love. Long before heaven and earth were made, and long after they disappear, His WORD will still remain. On the Day of Judgement abortion and every other atrocity we have tried to justify will be shown for the evil it is. We must seek God now, while we have the time to do it! Today is the day of salvation.
It is not too late to repent and turn our hearts back to the Lord. We can bring healing and life to this land that we love if we will humble ourselves before God's mighty right hand. If my people, who are called by my name, and humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. II Chronicles 7:14

GOD LOVES YOU!
If you are planning an abortion, please reconsider. Though your situation may seem hopeless, God will work something beautiful in your life if you trust and obey Him. Choosing to "remove" your problem will only create new ones. Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? Micah 6:7 You will have to bear the guilt of your abortion or else harden your heart to not feel guilty. God loves both you and your child very much, and if you feel incapable of raising him or her, there are thousands of couples who have waited years for the chance to adopt a baby. Though it may be difficult to give it away, you will have given it the greatest gift of all--life. As Mother Theresa put it so simply "love means to be willing to give until it hurts." Give your child to a family that will truly love it. You can make the dreams of a childless couple come true... and you can bless the heart of God.
If you have already had an abortion, please do not feel that this was written only to bring you under guilt and condemnation. What is done is done and cannot be changed. God has your child in heaven with Him, and longs to forgive you if you ask Him to. Once God forgives a sin, He literally forgets it, and DOES NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU ANY LONGER! Please do not hold against yourself what God has forgotten. Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I, even I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Isaiah 43:18, 25. Receive His love, for He loves you just as much as the child you lost. He already took your sin and bore it upon Himself so you would not have to bear the punishment, which would be eternal separation from Him. He knows the agony you've gone through better than any other, for He was there too, with you. Open your life to Him and let Him give you a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of the spirit of despair. He will make you into an oak of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display his splendor. Isaiah 61:3

In conclusion, the words of God ring out as clearly now as they did over 3,000 years ago:
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your children may live, and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him. Deuteronomy 30:19-20

[Happy_Now]

sorry for the wrong site i copied
here is the right one;

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=211

[Pepe n Pilar]

This thread entitled "Is it a Sin" was diverted to skin whitening then to Pinays marrying foreigners to get a better life.

1) Abortion
2) Skin Whitening
3) Marrying a foreigner

It is a sin if we base it on God's words bec it is the 5th Commandment of God "Thou Shalt not Kill". This is self explanatory.

It depends on "how" and "why" this happened. If the girl concerned has an abortion for the first time then perhaps she may be forgiven or pardoned for the why's and how's will be based on lack of knowledge about sex, immaturity, or maybe some other reasons. If she did it for the second time, then that is different:doh. She will be regarded as "irresponsible":Brick:. She should have learned from the past and should have known the consequences of her act. Filipinos will say "hinde na natutu"..:NoNo::NoNo:(never learn)or "ka bobohan na yan"!:NoNo:(lack of knowledge or awareness of the outcome).

For Some they will base it on how they define LIFE. If this act was done and it is just few days old and if the mother's life will be put into danger if she pursue the pregnancy, then it is not a sin. There is a medical term for that.... DNC? in tagalog (raspa). This is done to cleanse the mother's uterus to remove whatever may harm her health.

2) Skin whitening. Some women prefers light brown (tan) skin than whiter skin. It doesn't matter what color of skin she has. Innerself and/or intellect (rational being)are based on how she converse to people, on how she view things, on how she cope up on a given situation (flexibility, adaptability) not on what color of skin she has. What is important is one should know how to carry oneself... Besides we all know this saying "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".:xxgrinning--00xx3: No need to say what qualities she has because she will be judged by the person she is conversing with based on the total self (personality). Some people get easily attracted to women with whiter or fairer skin than the ones with brown skin (this is in the Phils) and vice versa if it is outside the Phils. Now after they got the chance to know the girl that is after he has talked to her, he will now come up to a decision or make assessment on her if she can relate to him in accordance to intelligence. Again we can't generalised this. Some men prefer the outer qualities. To each his own.

3) Filipinas marrying foreigners to have a better life. It maybe true to some. Some marry for love (mostly) and some marry for some other reasons. This is the same with foreigners marrying filipinas. Some marry for love(mostly) and some marry filipinas because they prefer the Philippines as the place for them to retire. They want and/or love that country and so they look for filipinas. Aside from filipinas are known for many good assets such as loving, takes good care of the home, faithful and can easily adapt to any given situation. Again this is not applicable to everyone. "Swertehan lang yan" (they are just lucky enough if these qualities are present in their partners).

:):Hellooo:

[adam&chryss]

The reason why most Filipinas want to have whiter skin is just because most people in the Philippines have darker skin. And for them white skin looks absolutely beautiful it is because it's not common in our country.
Just like here in England or in United States. Lots of white women want to have darker or tan skin, that's why they always go to beaches or warmer countries for sunbathing, which it will end up having an orange skin :icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

That`s what you call a sermon Mrs.Happy now!:D:D:D

[Pepe n Pilar]

That`s what you call a sermon Mrs.Happy now!:D:D:D


Hi Wheela... you made me laugh!...:icon_lol::D:Hellooo:

No offense here Happy_now......:Hellooo: Just caught by Mrs Daddy's sense of humour!:icon_lol:

[David House]

To equate abortion with "murder" makes no sense to those who cannot accept that a "baby" exists the moment a sperm fertilises an egg! Whilst the potential for that fertilised egg to become a baby does exist, it clearly does not yet and does not until it becomes capable of an independent life. Whilst dependent upon the mother it is part of her and if a danger to her then it must be her decision, not ours or anyone elses, as to the action she takes. No religious organisation has the right to impose their views on this subject and any advice given should be practical and not based upon personal conviction. Personal views can direct personal actions, but must not be allowed to influence others.
I have known women, who have no strong religious convictions, to suffer huge emotional difficulties after having an abortion so I understand that such a step must be a terrible one to contemplate. Please don't make it worse by adding all the guilt associated with holding a personal pro-life viewpoint.

[bornatbirth]

and now the pro life,pro church reply? :Help1:

[Pepe n Pilar]

and now the pro life,pro church reply? :Help1:

you're starting a debate bornatbirth!:omg::icon_lol::Rasp::Hellooo::Brick::Help1:

[Mrs Daddy]

Honestly am torn between two beliefs:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Mrs.JMajor]

Honestly am torn between two beliefs:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:
:yikes: and sooner or later you will become ....:Help1::Cuckoo:

[bornatbirth]

Honestly am torn between two beliefs:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

theres nothing wrong in believing in either!

but when it comes to making important decisions they can cloud the issue? :Erm:

[Sophie]

This thread entitled "Is it a Sin" was diverted to skin whitening then to Pinays marrying foreigners to get a better life.

1) Abortion
2) Skin Whitening
3) Marrying a foreigner

It is a sin if we base it on God's words bec it is the 5th Commandment of God "Thou Shalt not Kill". This is self explanatory.

It depends on "how" and "why" this happened. If the girl concerned has an abortion for the first time then perhaps she may be forgiven or pardoned for the why's and how's will be based on lack of knowledge about sex, immaturity, or maybe some other reasons. If she did it for the second time, then that is different:doh. She will be regarded as "irresponsible":Brick:. She should have learned from the past and should have known the consequences of her act. Filipinos will say "hinde na natutu"..:NoNo::NoNo:(never learn)or "ka bobohan na yan"!:NoNo:(lack of knowledge or awareness of the outcome).

For Some they will base it on how they define LIFE. If this act was done and it is just few days old and if the mother's life will be put into danger if she pursue the pregnancy, then it is not a sin. There is a medical term for that.... DNC? in tagalog (raspa). This is done to cleanse the mother's uterus to remove whatever may harm her health.

2) Skin whitening. Some women prefers light brown (tan) skin than whiter skin. It doesn't matter what color of skin she has. Innerself and/or intellect (rational being)are based on how she converse to people, on how she view things, on how she cope up on a given situation (flexibility, adaptability) not on what color of skin she has. What is important is one should know how to carry oneself... Besides we all know this saying "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".:xxgrinning--00xx3: No need to say what qualities she has because she will be judged by the person she is conversing with based on the total self (personality). Some people get easily attracted to women with whiter or fairer skin than the ones with brown skin (this is in the Phils) and vice versa if it is outside the Phils. Now after they got the chance to know the girl that is after he has talked to her, he will now come up to a decision or make assessment on her if she can relate to him in accordance to intelligence. Again we can't generalised this. Some men prefer the outer qualities. To each his own.

3) Filipinas marrying foreigners to have a better life. It maybe true to some. Some marry for love (mostly) and some marry for some other reasons. This is the same with foreigners marrying filipinas. Some marry for love(mostly) and some marry filipinas because they prefer the Philippines as the place for them to retire. They want and/or love that country and so they look for filipinas. Aside from filipinas are known for many good assets such as loving, takes good care of the home, faithful and can easily adapt to any given situation. Again this is not applicable to everyone. "Swertehan lang yan" (they are just lucky enough if these qualities are present in their partners).

:):Hellooo:

very well said iye :xxgrinning--00xx3: I couldn't agree more :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Sophie]

The reason why most Filipinas want to have whiter skin is just because most people in the Philippines have darker skin. And for them white skin looks absolutely beautiful it is because it's not common in our country.
Just like here in England or in United States. Lots of white women want to have darker or tan skin, that's why they always go to beaches or warmer countries for sunbathing, which it will end up having an orange skin :icon_lol:

Exactly, this is a classic scenario of people's discontentment and how they always opt to get what the others have and not appreciate what they have. Always thinking "THE GRASS IS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE"

[joebloggs]

To equate abortion with "murder" makes no sense to those who cannot accept that a "baby" exists the moment a sperm fertilises an egg! Whilst the potential for that fertilised egg to become a baby does exist, it clearly does not yet and does not until it becomes capable of an independent life. Whilst dependent upon the mother it is part of her and if a danger to her then it must be her decision, not ours or anyone elses, as to the action she takes. No religious organisation has the right to impose their views on this subject and any advice given should be practical and not based upon personal conviction. Personal views can direct personal actions, but must not be allowed to influence others.
I have known women, who have no strong religious convictions, to suffer huge emotional difficulties after having an abortion so I understand that such a step must be a terrible one to contemplate. Please don't make it worse by adding all the guilt associated with holding a personal pro-life viewpoint.

capable of independent life, how many weeks is that ? normally 38wks !!

are you trying to tell me that a baby born premature at 32wks is not a baby or has no right to a life, or one born at 23wks which relies on the skills of medical staff to keep it a live is not a baby ??? :Erm:

i would have thought most babies aborted are not a danger to the mother, more like the mother is the danger to the baby(over 200,000 abortions last year in the uk) . I don't think anyone is against abortion when there is a danger to them mother. Abortions over 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances, if there is a substantial risk the child would be born with serious handicap or the mother's life was in danger.so past 24wks the woman doesn't have a choice. why that then ??

[bornatbirth]

a living baby is not alive until a baby can take its first breathe by it self!

and why do we all get so moral over life?

we are all part of the worlds evolution?

[trader dave]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136186]from everywhere :xxgrinning--00xx3: but not at your level ????/:D:Erm:[/QUOTE

And what Level is that?

The last time I had the chance to talk to my lady friends, my househelp and laundry lady, my former students, coworkers, as well as my neighbors in the slums where I lived... they never thought that having white skin or having a child from a foreigner would give them a better chance in life. Actually, they believe that a foreign bf will leave them after getting them pregnant just like the many EuroAsian, FilAm, and FilJap children here, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with their Filipina when they go back to their motherland.

:NoNo:

yes florge it is a thread about abortion :xxgrinning--00xx3:

You asked me to explain what i meant about the different levels :xxgrinning--00xx3:

and i did :doh its one of my pet hates those who have and those who have not in the philippines and how some just forget where they came from and like to showoff :NoNo: oooo look at me i work abroad or i married a foregner IT WINDS ME UP :furious3::furious3::Brick: yes the philippines is a great place to live [if you have a little money ] its a great place to retire [if you have a little money ] but there is also another side to the philippines to which some of us HAVE seen :Erm::yikes: THAT IS NOT NICE :yikes: i could go on and on and on about the less savoury side ---I WILL NOT :rolleyes:

and just to mention one point is was that there are a lot of young girls there and in many countries now that are getting pregnant on purpose for a reason
and in the philippines THEY BELIEVE [some not all ]that by having a misteza- mix race baby ???? that it will have a better change in life ---now we all know that is utter rubbish :NoNo::Erm:

[Mrs Daddy]

:yikes: and sooner or later you will become ....:Help1::Cuckoo:

I know:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

[QUOTE=Florge;136367]

yes florge it is a thread about abortion :xxgrinning--00xx3:

You asked me to explain what i meant about the different levels :xxgrinning--00xx3:

and i did :doh its one of my pet hates those who have and those who have not in the philippines and how some just forget where they came from and like to showoff :NoNo: oooo look at me i work abroad or i married a foregner IT WINDS ME UP :furious3::furious3::Brick: yes the philippines is a great place to live [if you have a little money ] its a great place to retire [if you have a little money ] but there is also another side to the philippines to which some of us HAVE seen :Erm::yikes: THAT IS NOT NICE :yikes: i could go on and on and on about the less savoury side ---I WILL NOT :rolleyes:

and just to mention one point is was that there are a lot of young girls there and in many countries now that are getting pregnant on purpose for a reason
and in the philippines THEY BELIEVE [some not all ]that by having a misteza- mix race baby ???? that it will have a better change in life ---now we all know that is utter rubbish :NoNo::Erm:

sorry I am not here trying to offend you trader dave but I am curious does your wife think same way like marrying you to have a mestiza children.Just curious I hope you not offended by my question:ARsurrender:

[Scouse]

The decision is up to the woman is pregnant.

If you don't agree with abortion don't have one but don't force your beliefs on others.

[Mrs Daddy]

The decision is up to the woman is pregnant.

If you don't agree with abortion don't have one but don't force your beliefs on others.

couldnt agree more!

[Jamesey]

The decision is up to the woman is pregnant.

If you don't agree with abortion don't have one but don't force your beliefs on others.


Well done, Scouse. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

This topic is about to run into 5 pages, but your two sentences sum everything up very nicely.

[adam&chryss]

Well unfortunately if you ask for opinions on a public forum thats what you get, obviously.
:doh

[Pepe n Pilar]

In short.... SO WHAT???... THIS IS MY LIFE!..:doh:doh

[Mrs Daddy]

In short.... SO WHAT???... THIS IS MY LIFE!..:doh:doh

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: but its nice to hear views from different person as its hard to carry the burdens on your own and you need someone to tell it to,or else you will gone mad:Brick::Brick::Brick:

[Pepe n Pilar]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: but its nice to hear views from different person as its hard to carry the burdens on your own and you need someone to tell it to,or else you will gone mad:Brick::Brick::Brick:


Definitely.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:If we have burdens we love to hear advices, different views or comments may it be positive or negative. We need someone who can share a shoulder to cry on....:)

About the comments........It's take it or leave it....:)
Ooppps, here i go again.... explaining...:doh

Hi Wheela.... :Hellooo:

[Jay&Zobel]

capable of independent life, how many weeks is that ? normally 38wks !!

are you trying to tell me that a baby born premature at 32wks is not a baby or has no right to a life, or one born at 23wks which relies on the skills of medical staff to keep it a live is not a baby ??? :Erm:



:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:
I agree with you Joe! My baby was slightly premature... but still a baby! and he is alive & kicking (literally)! but very dependent on me still!!!!:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Mrs Daddy]

Definitely.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:If we have burdens we love to hear advices, different views or comments may it be positive or negative. We need someone who can share a shoulder to cry on....:)

About the comments........It's take it or leave it....:)
Ooppps, here i go again.... explaining...:doh

Hi Wheela.... :Hellooo:

thats right shelly hallo to you also:Hellooo::Hellooo::Hellooo:

[trader dave]

[QUOTE=trader dave;136736]

sorry I am not here trying to offend you trader dave but I am curious does your wife think same way like marrying you to have a mestiza children.Just curious I hope you not offended by my question:ARsurrender:

:D:D:D:D:D:NoNo: TOTAL LOVE



ooooooono buan :yikes: no more children from me i had the chop about 6 years ago :Erm:god bought us together but he does not wish us to have more babies i was gifted with 2 boys and a girl before and my fiancee has a 4 yr old given to her by one of those HIT AND RUN :icon_lol::Erm:pilipino guys :NoNo: thats life or just another trial :Hellooo:


no offence intended --:Hellooo: none taken :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3: its very hard to offended me --i say it like it is so expect to take it back:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::Hellooo:

[SurvivingAngel]

Every sperm is wanted:xxgrinning--00xx3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p35J2MsALlo

Every sperm is sacred :)!

[SurvivingAngel]

capable of independent life, how many weeks is that ? normally 38wks !!

are you trying to tell me that a baby born premature at 32wks is not a baby or has no right to a life, or one born at 23wks which relies on the skills of medical staff to keep it a live is not a baby ??? :Erm:



This is strange as there are really people who think like this.

I have taught Koreans for almost 7 years and they believe that the moment they were born, they're already considered a year old. The strange thing is when they are in dilemma as to have abortion or not (it's something they can easily do, in hiding, though), they would say, "If it's below three months, it's not a baby yet, it has no life, so it's ok to abort the baby."

Basic principle; Life begins at the moment of fertilization, and sex, traits are then fixed! Regardless of the number of weeks, life begins at the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm.

[pennybarry]

This is strange as there are really people who think like this.

I have taught Koreans for almost 7 years and they believe that the moment they were born, they're already considered a year old. The strange thing is when they are in dilemma as to have abortion or not (it's something they can easily do, in hiding, though), they would say, "If it's below three months, it's not a baby yet, it has no life, so it's ok to abort the baby."

Basic principle; Life begins at the moment of fertilization, and sex, traits are then fixed! Regardless of the number of weeks, life begins at the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm.

You're right!!! In Taiwan it is the same, they always add 1 year to our age. They said life begins at the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm.:D

I cannot resist with them as it's sounds true:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Piamed]

Surely an abortion means more than the ending of a pregnancy; it is the termination of a life and the potential of a being. Some, rather prosaically, attempt to dismiss an early-stage life as nothing more than a cellular agglomeration, as it suits their purpose. Presumably they would not be in any measure of distress if they or their partner miscarried at an early stage, since their belief would tell them that it was not a valid life lost anyway. I doubt it because any normal person within a normal context rejoices at the prospect of life resulting from them. If they would still hold the same view then fine but do not impose your pro-abortion views on others (I say that as presumably this repudiating tactic works both ways).

This person has a history of making gross errors in judgment that would be repellent to many. She clearly needs help and support going forward and to impede her foolishness from reaching its apogee. I wholly subscribe to the view that another life should not pay the ultimate price because of the errant practices of another who is old enough to make wise choices but has opted not to do so. It should be impressed upon her that you cannot come back from a murder.
Any suggestion that the choice of whether to kill this life should be the exclusive preserve of the person carrying that life is, in my view, surprisingly naïve and myopic. Anyone disagreeing should please state whether they would hold the same view if after seeing their little one on a scan, their partner told them that she had aborted it for her own personal reasons and in line with their joint belief, it had been exclusively her choice.

There are many wonderful couples that long to have a child and cannot create one of their own but would make superlative adoptive parents. As one wise person said and others agreed, why not give the child up for adoption in preference to consigning it to the morgue or dissecting table?

As I said earlier, the woman needs help. She has demonstrated that she is not always capable of making wise decisions, so contrary to what one person suggested earlier, someone close to her should intervene to advise her and help prevent her making another gross decision she might regret for the rest of her life and will mean the death of another life in the meantime.
If anyone has had an abortion, that is the past and should not be dwelled on, in my opinion. We should however, help any individual, irrespective of the past, not to make the same type of error going forward.

Skin Whitening
I think it unfortunate that some feel that something other than what they are is best and to the extent that they are willing to risk their natural health for it but it is their choice. Some think being as white as is attainable is beautiful. Some, not many, believe being darker is the epitome of beauty. Each to their own!

If one is using skin lighteners because they seek to remove blemishes, etc. it is different but I would encourage them to find means to achieve the same aim without risk, using naturally designed products. Those interested in this can ask me for further info which I will happily provide and may even be able to source some product for them.

It's also interesting the perception of tone and shade. To my current understanding, right or wrong, the average Korean type skin tone is most admired in da Phils, as are the very light hispanic skin tones. If I'm correct, then the darker complextions are actually the majority and are not at all rare. In any event, to my mind, based upon my trips there, the percentage of naturally very light-skinned Filipinos in the various places I've been to across Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao, is quite low. If that is the case, there must be an alternative reasoning behind the popular desire to be light-skinned.

[JudyHon]

Surely an abortion means more than the ending of a pregnancy; it is the termination of a life and the potential of a being. Some, rather prosaically, attempt to dismiss an early-stage life as nothing more than a cellular agglomeration, as it suits their purpose. Presumably they would not be in any measure of distress if they or their partner miscarried at an early stage, since the belief would tell them that it was not a valid life lost anyway. I doubt it because any normal person within a normal context rejoices at the prospect of life resulting from them. If they would still hold the same view then fine but do not impose your pro-abortion views on others (I say that as presumably this repudiating tactic works both ways).



I wasn't aware that anyone here was expressing 'pro-abortion' views. I thought that was the one-child policy in China? Maybe a pro-life tactic to avoid using the term 'pro-choice'. But it suits your purpose to avoid using the 'choice' word as 'imposing views' of freedom of choice sounds a bit daft in this context. Imposing views that women must complete their pregnancy does not.

For the record I find the very idea of abortion absolutely repellent, but when I hear cases of women scratching out their foetus with coathangers causing great injury to themselves and rendering themselves barren, or even resorting to suicide rather than see the pregnancy through, I cannot help but arrive at my pro-choice position.

[Piamed]

I wasn't aware that anyone here was expressing 'pro-abortion' views. I thought that was the one-child policy in China? Maybe a pro-life tactic to avoid using the term 'pro-choice'. But it suits your purpose to avoid using the 'choice' word as 'imposing views' of freedom of choice sounds a bit daft in this context. Imposing views that women must complete their pregnancy does not.

For the record I find the very idea of abortion absolutely repellent, but when I hear cases of women scratching out their foetus with coathangers causing great injury to themselves and rendering themselves barren, or even resorting to suicide rather than see the pregnancy through, I cannot help but arrive at my pro-choice position.Life and death are antithetical terms. Summarily, your comments are tantamount to an assertion choice is synonomous with death. Quite preposterous in anyones view, surely. I can't fathom the rest of this paragraph of your post unfortunately.

That you reconcile the plight of desperate women scratching out the life inside them with a general perception that it is ok to kill it so long as its by some other means defies reasoning and again is somewhat paradoxical to your stated position of being repelled by the thought of abortion. Death is death period. It's quite pathetic to position pro-choice as some soft fuzzy good ending for all concerned. A life is being terminated. You seem to be aware of that but at the same time are in conflict.

[David House]

Life and death are antithetical terms. Summarily, your comments are tantamount to an assertion choice is synonomous with death. Quite preposterous in anyones view, surely. I can't fathom the rest of this paragraph of your post unfortunately.

That you reconcile the plight of desperate women scratching out the life inside them with a general perception that it is ok to kill it so long as its by some other means defies reasoning and again is somewhat paradoxical to your stated position of being repelled by the thought of abortion. Death is death period. It's quite pathetic to position pro-choice as some soft fuzzy good ending for all concerned. A life is being terminated. You seem to be aware of that but at the same time are in conflict.

This issue is so very much more complicated than those who hold the "pro-life" viewpoint wish to present it. I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion" and I certainly feel it has to be the choice of last resort, when it becomes the least worst option. I respect those, who through their own personal religious convictions, would never wish to have one, in any circumstances. I just wish that they would accept that there are many who do not share that view and then do their best to comfort and support those who through circumstances either feel forced into having to abort or are recommended to do so by their doctor.
I think there is a lot of confusion going on, partly brought about by the wonders of modern science. These days it is not simply the mother who can feel the changes going on in her womb, both she and her partner can "see" the developments through scans. I can understand why you might then believe that what you are feeling and seeing is a "baby". It is not though. It is still work in progress, incapable of existing independantly. It has the potential to become a baby, but may not for several reasons. It is not yet "alive" so cannot be killed. Abortion is a nasty business, but it is not murder and it is almost evil to describe it so, for it seeks to make already emotionally distressed women feel guilty. Pity the poor, with already too many mouths to feed and knowing that she cannot feed another, denied contraception by an ignorant Church and then denied a safe early abortion. Pity the mother, whose own life is under threat, having to give birth in all circumstances. Don't tell me that this is what God commands, for sure He has more pity than this.

[bornatbirth]

so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anthing other than that is pure nonsense!

[JudyHon]

Life and death are antithetical terms. Summarily, your comments are tantamount to an assertion choice is synonomous with death. Quite preposterous in anyones view, surely. I can't fathom the rest of this paragraph of your post unfortunately.

That you reconcile the plight of desperate women scratching out the life inside them with a general perception that it is ok to kill it so long as its by some other means defies reasoning and again is somewhat paradoxical to your stated position of being repelled by the thought of abortion. Death is death period. It's quite pathetic to position pro-choice as some soft fuzzy good ending for all concerned. A life is being terminated. You seem to be aware of that but at the same time are in conflict.

I can’t fathom the start of your post, myself, but it appears you are putting words in people’s mouths.

There is no difficulty in reconciling - however abhorrent I personally might find a practice, I can only guess at what must be going through a person’s mind when they would resort to mutilating themselves and put their lives in real danger rather than see the pregnancy through to term. Perhaps the deaths that sometimes do result are less important? Oh no, death is death. You seem to see things is such black and white terms.

I think in such cases their right not to be forced into such an extreme and intolerable situation subordinates the right to life of their foetus. It is living but it is not a person.

No one is positioning pro-choice as happy ending. You create yet another straw man. It is in my opinion the least bad option, and not a ‘general perception that it is ok to kill’.

Do you advocate that women who are raped and become pregnant must give birth also? What about where severe birth defects are picked up in a scan, and the child wil have no real quality of life?

[Jamesey]

It should be impressed upon her that you cannot come back from a murder.




This piece of "advice" is appalling. :cwm23:

The woman is obviously in a very difficult situation, and the last thing she needs is to be told that she is considering "murder", even if it is a misplaced definition of it. :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:

[Mrs Daddy]

Oh dear we`re on page 5 now!:yikes::yikes::yikes:I am trying to digest your opinion guys and to be honest I find it very confusing and I am losing my mind now:doh:doh:doh All I really hope for her is to get through all this mess and hopefully she`ll get her strenght back:bigcry::bigcry:

[David House]

Oh dear we`re on page 5 now!:yikes::yikes::yikes:I am trying to digest your opinion guys and to be honest I find it very confusing and I am losing my mind now:doh:doh:doh All I really hope for her is to get through all this mess and hopefully she`ll get her strenght back:bigcry::bigcry:

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

[adam&chryss]

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

An excellent post that sums up the situation well :xxgrinning--00xx3:
We all have our opinions of which you know many now :CompBuster:
Good luck for the difficult times ahead.

[Mrs.JMajor]

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

And i want to say you made a good thread and everyone had said thier different views, but the fact this words I quoted is the best thing you need to do Wheela, I wish for her recovery:):cwm38:

[Piamed]

This issue is so very much more complicated than those who hold the "pro-life" viewpoint wish to present it. I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion" and I certainly feel it has to be the choice of last resort, when it becomes the least worst option. I respect those, who through their own personal religious convictions, would never wish to have one, in any circumstances. I just wish that they would accept that there are many who do not share that view and then do their best to comfort and support those who through circumstances either feel forced into having to abort or are recommended to do so by their doctor.
I think there is a lot of confusion going on, partly brought about by the wonders of modern science. These days it is not simply the mother who can feel the changes going on in her womb, both she and her partner can "see" the developments through scans. I can understand why you might then believe that what you are feeling and seeing is a "baby". It is not though. It is still work in progress, incapable of existing independantly. It has the potential to become a baby, but may not for several reasons. It is not yet "alive" so cannot be killed. Abortion is a nasty business, but it is not murder and it is almost evil to describe it so, for it seeks to make already emotionally distressed women feel guilty. Pity the poor, with already too many mouths to feed and knowing that she cannot feed another, denied contraception by an ignorant Church and then denied a safe early abortion. Pity the mother, whose own life is under threat, having to give birth in all circumstances. Don't tell me that this is what God commands, for sure He has more pity than this.
I accept that you do not understand that an early stage life can be perceived by others as a baby. We all have our individual views.

I never mentioned anything about religious convictions and am not using them to temper my position because I do not believe it is necessary to and nor did I make any reference to being pro-life. I am not pro-life as it is used within this context. Pro-life is not opposite to pro-choice. I am anti-abortion which according to my understanding is what this thread is about. It is not about choice at all.

The author of this thread has raised the issue of abortion being a sin or not. That seems pretty back and white to me. Others have sought to modify the it being a sin aspect so as to make it more palatable. But it is what it is. Would members of the pro-choice-to-abort party be happy if any of the arguments they have espoused relating to the validity of life, etc. were applied to them and their children?


In response to the notion that it is not living and therefore cannot be killed - When a mother unfortunately miscarries at an early stage of pregnancy, why does the doctor tell her that her baby has died? Do you think its because the doctor believes that she cannot comprehend that the child was not living? Or could be be that he wants to use warm and fuzzy albeit inaccurate language in his communications with her?

The rest of my comments are reiterated and highlighted in bold in my original posting.


so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anything other than that is pure nonsense!That is clearly your view and I accept that. I think pro-choice advocates should side with maintaining a life as if it has been extingushed further options/choices are redundant.


I can’t fathom the start of your post, myself, but it appears you are putting words in people’s mouths.

There is no difficulty in reconciling - however abhorrent I personally might find a practice, I can only guess at what must be going through a person’s mind when they would resort to mutilating themselves and put their lives in real danger rather than see the pregnancy through to term. Perhaps the deaths that sometimes do result are less important? Oh no, death is death. You seem to see things is such black and white terms.

I think in such cases their right not to be forced into such an extreme and intolerable situation subordinates the right to life of their foetus. It is living but it is not a person.

No one is positioning pro-choice as happy ending. You create yet another straw man. It is in my opinion the least bad option, and not a ‘general perception that it is ok to kill’.

Do you advocate that women who are raped and become pregnant must give birth also? What about where severe birth defects are picked up in a scan, and the child will have no real quality of life?
I never said anyone must do anything. If an early-stage life has severe defects indicated on a scan do you believe it should be terminated? If one does then they believe that many happy individuals alive today should have been aborted. If you've seen any documentaries with parents of so-called abnormal children you would know that most disagree with any suggestion that they should have been aborted - the children in question also. Please also see highlighted points on my original posting.

What is the difference between being living and being a person? What is this extreme and intolerable situation you speak of that subordinates the right to life of an unborn person? Are you referring to motherhood and responsibility? If your thoughts are representative of what society considers extreme and tolerable, were are in phenomenally bad shape I would suggest.


This piece of "advice" is appalling. :cwm23:

The woman is obviously in a very difficult situation, and the last thing she needs is to be told that she is considering "murder", even if it is a misplaced definition of it. :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:You are right; advising another that it is simply ok to abort any early-stage life inside her time and again is a far better option and much more palatable to some. Apologies for the sarcasm - I do admit that the advice i've put forward should not be communicated quite in the nanner i've done here. It's a mixed audience on here and some things are iterated in a manner precipitated by specific individuals. :)

I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.

Everyone has a choice and all things in life are impacted by the choices we make. For the record, I have counseled women prior to abortions and supported them through both decisionary paths. I held the hand of one of my closest friends during her abortion and drove another to the hospital have one and picked her up afterward with tears in my eyes. They chose me as people who know me well know that I may disagree with something and will say so but at the end of the day will fiercely defend our friendship and am always there for my friends. I present my counsel to involved parties in a different way to how I communicate on here but the essence is still the same and then it's their choice. This has nothing to do with religion but is about wisdom, choice and consequences. Through my work I have seen more abortions than you could ever imagine. There is never anything satisfying about it and women do not say, "Yehey, I'm exercising pro-choice" as they sit there crying afterward. They say, "I have just murdered my baby". Not to advise friends when solicited for advise is a failing.

[Mrs Daddy]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint:D:D:D

[bornatbirth]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint:D:D:D

thats alot of pints :66:

where are we going to meet up? :Erm:

[Mrs.JMajor]

thats alot of pints :66:

where are we going to meet up? :Erm:
No, you didnt explain well, more pints for Piamed :icon_lol:

[Pepe n Pilar]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint:D:D:D

Thanks Mrs. Daddy...:):):Hellooo:


thats alot of pints :66:

where are we going to meet up? :Erm:

Count me in Wheela...:D:icon_win:


No, you didnt explain well, more pints for Piamed :icon_lol:

Mrs Daddy is thanking each and everyone.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Mrs.JMajor]

Mrs Daddy is thanking each and everyone.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:
:yikes: I am just kidding to bornabirth,:Erm::doh:NoNo:
and I guess he wont take it seriously:Brick::Brick:

[Mrs Daddy]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: Its getting serious around here:xxparty-smiley-004: come on!lets have a reunion at Boss place:xxgrinning--00xx3:

R u reading Boss:ARsurrender::ARsurrender::ARsurrender:

[bornatbirth]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint:D:D:D

was that pints of ice tea?


:yikes: I am just kidding to bornabirth,:Erm::doh:NoNo:
and I guess he wont take it seriously:Brick::Brick:

:xxgrinning--00xx3::icon_lol: im already pikon and followed by tampo!!!

[Mrs Daddy]

was that pints of ice tea?



:xxgrinning--00xx3::icon_lol: im already pikon and followed by tampo!!!

Is a pint of water would do for you?:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:


anytime pm me where is the meeting place?I have tried phoning ate ping but I bet they`re still in vegas playing casino:yikes: I just wonder if we could visit you next sunday Mr. and Mrs. Boss:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anthing other than that is pure nonsense!


:Erm: now that's pure nonsense :doh, a unborn baby with a heart beat is not a live :Erm: i think a heart beat is a good sign of life :rolleyes:

also if that is so, then why is there a 24wk limit for abortions in the uk then ? seems the law thinks that a unborn baby that has not taken a breathe on its own does have rights.

Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a former nurse who proposed a 20-week limit, said a baby's rights should be considered at the point it had the "chance of life".


piamed looks like i agree with you, and so does the misses :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bornatbirth]

i dont pay much attention to tory mps! :doh:icon_lol: pity you do?

and how does that 20 week old baby survive? without help,thats playing god and humans are not god?

why is there a 24 week law? and not lower because the doctors cant agree!

so when does life begin?

[Piamed]

:Erm: now that's pure nonsense :doh, a unborn baby with a heart beat is not a live :Erm: i think a heart beat is a good sign of life :rolleyes:

also if that is so, then why is there a 24wk limit for abortions in the uk then ? seems the law thinks that a unborn baby that has not taken a breathe on its own does have rights.

Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a former nurse who proposed a 20-week limit, said a baby's rights should be considered at the point it had the "chance of life".


piamed looks like i agree with you, and so does the misses :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Cheers mate! Each perspective will have it's own supporters. I'm exceptionally happy to have you both side with me on this issue.

[joebloggs]

i dont pay much attention to tory mps! :doh:icon_lol: pity you do?

and how does that 20 week old baby survive? without help,thats playing god and humans are not god?

why is there a 24 week law? and not lower because the doctors cant agree!

so when does life begin?

no i don't pay much attention to any MP's, but its funny you only mention the MP part and not the former NURSE part :doh, so she will probably has a better idea of what she's talking about than you or I, or many if not all the MPs :doh.

playing god :icon_lol:, if your ever ill and need hospital treatment, are you going to refuse it :Erm:, are the doctors not playing god then :doh

changes in medical science means that babes have a better chance of surviving and sooner, of course not all doctors agree with the 24wks (but i'm sure the 24wks will be reduced to 20wks soon), but all doctors like my wife, who took the Hippocratic oath, that doctors should not harm the patient(s) :NoNo:

[David House]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement. When we were in Cebu earlier this year we were involved on a daily basis with a family member who has terminal cancer. Although the neurologist knew she was going to die within 2 years he would not say so directly because of his faith and his belief that such matters are only in the hands of "God". It made handling the situation in the best way much more difficult.
When treating a pregnant women is the doctor primarily concerned for the mother or her potential baby? It cannot be easy, given the strongly held opposing views expressed here.
My position is clear. I don't believe "life" begins until it can survive alone. Until then it is not viable. I can understand the emotional attachment of parents to the changes happening within the mother, and why they feel as they do. Just because one part starts to work ( like the heart) does not mean that "life" exists. It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

[joebloggs]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement.

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.



It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it :doh

how many women on here who have had a baby agree with you ? fact or fiction without a heart beat your dead :cwm24:

[adam&chryss]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement. When we were in Cebu earlier this year we were involved on a daily basis with a family member who has terminal cancer. Although the neurologist knew she was going to die within 2 years he would not say so directly because of his faith and his belief that such matters are only in the hands of "God". It made handling the situation in the best way much more difficult.
When treating a pregnant women is the doctor primarily concerned for the mother or her potential baby? It cannot be easy, given the strongly held opposing views expressed here.
My position is clear. I don't believe "life" begins until it can survive alone. Until then it is not viable. I can understand the emotional attachment of parents to the changes happening within the mother, and why they feel as they do. Just because one part starts to work ( like the heart) does not mean that "life" exists. It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

Once baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs? :Erm:

nagpipilosopo lang po :D

[David House]

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it

If you read what I said I was talking about the "engine" being only part of the car. Of course a car would still be a car if left in the garage, the same way a person is a person if they never left home. The point is that having a heartbeat is no more relevant than any other muscle movement. There is too much emotional meaning attached to the "heart" meaning that there is life. The brain is much more important.

baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs?

I have accepted that many women have an understandable emotional response to this. It is not just the heartbeat which is essential, but it is the thing which is most noticeable and which therefore gets the most attention. Once born a baby does not need their mother to survive. Clearly they cannot survive alone but that is a different matter. They are then a viable being, are clearly alive and need full protection and nurture.

[adam&chryss]

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it

If you read what I said I was talking about the "engine" being only part of the car. Of course a car would still be a car if left in the garage, the same way a person is a person if they never left home. The point is that having a heartbeat is no more relevant than any other muscle movement. There is too much emotional meaning attached to the "heart" meaning that there is life. The brain is much more important.

baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs?

I have accepted that many women have an understandable emotional response to this. It is not just the heartbeat which is essential, but it is the thing which is most noticeable and which therefore gets the most attention. Once born a baby does not need their mother to survive. Clearly they cannot survive alone but that is a different matter. They are then a viable being, are clearly alive and need full protection and nurture.

Same with a woman when pregnant. She eats alot of healthy foods to protect and nurture her baby inside her womb.

In everything you'll say I will have an answer or will contradict with it. And in everything I'll say you'll also have an answer on it.
This is a never ending debate or conversation because of what views or beliefs each of us have.
Which is fine because members have something to read at the same time we have something to post :xxgrinning--00xx3:

just being cheeky :icon_lol:

[joebloggs]

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.


part of the original Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

why do you keep mentioning about the mother only being the patient, the unborn baby is also a patient !

as just posted by adam&chryss, we're never going to agree. :doh

but i wish all future moms to be, good health for you and your baby :xxgrinning--00xx3:

i've said my bit, and time to go and play with ex-foetus little joe :Hellooo:

[bornatbirth]

so when does a babies life begin?

and why are you quoting that oath!

[joebloggs]

and why are you quoting that oath!

it begins when you think it does :D

it's an oath (or similar) all doctors have to take :doh

[bornatbirth]

it begins when you think it does :D

it's an oath (or similar) all doctors have to take :doh

then we have a never ending argument dont we? :icon_lol:

and that oath needs updating and modernising?

when would you feel a baby should be terminated?... if ever,as its seems doctors should do everything to keep a baby alive when should they allow one to die?

[joebloggs]

then we have a never ending argument dont we? :icon_lol:

and that oath needs updating and modernising?

when would you feel a baby should be terminated?... if ever,as its seems doctors should do everything to keep a baby alive when should they allow one to die?

yes we do :D

updating or modernising, well in some medical schools the abortion part has been removed, why ?? i don't know the reason. pressure from pro abortion groups ?

but how can you change an oath that's 2,400 years old ?


yes, in one room they could be trying to save a premature baby and in the next ending the life of one :doh

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/abortionDM1705_468x240.jpg

[Mrs Daddy]

Oh dear:doh do you mind if am gonna:xxparty-smiley-004: we`re on page 6 now guys this reminds me of another thread (deabates about God) Its just never ending.We are all entitled to our own opinion and I all respect you for that!now where`s the pint:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Sophie]

Oh dear:doh do you mind if am gonna:xxparty-smiley-004: we`re on page 6 now guys this reminds me of another thread (deabates about God) Its just never ending.We are all entitled to our own opinion and I all respect you for that!now where`s the pint:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

The longer this thread gets, the more pint you owe everyone mrs daddy :D:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

The longer this thread gets, the more pint you owe everyone mrs daddy :D:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

I just thought the same sophie:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Piamed]

o
I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement. When we were in Cebu earlier this year we were involved on a daily basis with a family member who has terminal cancer. Although the neurologist knew she was going to die within 2 years he would not say so directly because of his faith and his belief that such matters are only in the hands of "God". It made handling the situation in the best way much more difficult.
When treating a pregnant women is the doctor primarily concerned for the mother or her potential baby? It cannot be easy, given the strongly held opposing views expressed here.
My position is clear. I don't believe "life" begins until it can survive alone. Until then it is not viable. I can understand the emotional attachment of parents to the changes happening within the mother, and why they feel as they do. Just because one part starts to work ( like the heart) does not mean that "life" exists. It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.
Health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life, full stop.

I do not think the F1 car is the best analogy (I know where you are coming from though) but sticking to it for illustrative purposes, I would say the following: If the engine of a F1 car is running but the car is in the pit being tweaked by engineers during fuelling it is no less an F1 car. Reason that the mothers body is the team of engineers and the fuelling line is the umbilical cord.

[joebloggs]

The longer this thread gets, the more pint you owe everyone mrs daddy :D:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

then i can make it 10 pages long :xxgrinning--00xx3:

my last post on this.

:icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

then i can make it 10 pages long :xxgrinning--00xx3:

my last post on this.

:icon_lol:

:yikes::yikes::yikes: what can I say joe:D

[bornatbirth]

:yikes::yikes::yikes: what can I say joe:D

the pints are on me? :D:D:) :Erm: didnt you already sat that :icon_lol:

[Mrs Daddy]

the pints are on me? :D:D:) :Erm: didnt you already sat that :icon_lol:

:Erm: that`s true!:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[David House]

Health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life, full stop.

And that's the problem isn't it? I, and many others, do not accept that "life" exists at the moment of conception, but only that the potential for "life" exists, whereas a mother is clearly alive and that she must receive the primary concern.

I do not think the F1 car is the best analogy (I know where you are coming from though) but sticking to it for illustrative purposes, I would say the following: If the engine of a F1 car is running but the car is in the pit being tweaked by engineers during fuelling it is no less an F1 car. Reason that the mothers body is the team of engineers and the fuelling line is the umbilical cord.

Rather confused thinking I fear. If the car was totally finished and ready to race, but simply in the pits being tuned, you are right and the same applies, of course, to a baby who is viable. What we are discussing though is not that. I was suggesting that the car's engine was ready,working and being tested, but that the rest of the car was still being developed prior to assembly. Therefore it was not yet a viable F1 car, in the same way a baby is not really a baby until it is complete and able to live without it's mother.
I know we are rather getting bogged down in this and that views are deeply entrenched but I think it is helpful for those who hold the opposing view to be exposed to the rational of those who don't share that viewpoint. I used to be strongly "pro-life" until I thought more deeply about it and realised my arguments were based upon emotions rather than reality.

[joebloggs]

Health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life, full stop.

[COLOR="Black"]And that's the problem isn't it? I, and many others, do not accept that "life" exists at the moment of conception, but only that the potential for "life" exists, whereas a mother is clearly alive and that she must receive the primary concern.



and that is the problem because, I and many others, and many doctors don't agree with you, and that a unborn baby does have rights.

and why do you keep mentioning the mother must receive the primary concern, most abortions are not because of the risk to the mother, they just don't want the baby, simple as that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6558823.stm

An increasing number of doctors are refusing to carry out abortions, leading to a crisis in NHS services, experts have warned.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says there has been a big rise in the number of doctors who are "conscientious objectors".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1973805/NHS-doctors-refuse-late-abortions.html

NHS doctors are refusing to carry out late abortions on moral grounds, forcing hospitals to contract them out to private practitioners.

Consultant gynaecologist Vincent Argent said there was "marked reluctance" among NHS staff to carry out late terminations. He said: "This isn't the result of childish squeamishness, these are healthcare professionals trained in dealing with any sort of medical situation. But late abortions conflict with everything doctors and nurses are trained to do - preserve life."


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/abortion-crisis-as-doctors-refuse-to-perform-surgery-444909.html

"Medically, abortion really isn't a popular thing to do, it is not a very technical or demanding operation and it's actually quite disheartening," he says.

"There's no handshakes or slaps on the backs afterwards, or the sense that you've done something great for someone. The best you can hope for is sense of relief that it is over.

"In my day to day work I deal with requests for terminations but I have a conscientious objection to that. During the consultation I will tell them because of my personal views I cannot refer them to hospital for the procedure and they will have to speak with another doctor. Out of the six doctors in our practice, three of us object to abortion.

Personally I feel the foetus is a person and killing that foetus is wrong

and http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2037352.ece :NoNo:

[David House]

If you re-read all my posts you will see that I am not suggesting for a moment that abortion is an easy or desirable thing. Far from it, in my view it should always be an action of last resort, the least worse choice, when all other options have failed. Abortion as an alternative to contraception is not acceptable to me at all. I also don't minimise the emotional turmoil undergone by women who undergo an abortion, having witnessed it at first hand.
My argument is with those who feel it is wrong in every circumstance. To refer to a fertilised egg as an "unborn child" is simply wrong. In my view, it is still part of the mother until born and able to breath unaided. Therefore the primary duty of all doctors must be to the mother until then. I know some find it difficult and refuse to get involved. That is their personal decision.

[joebloggs]

My argument is with those who feel it is wrong in every circumstance. To refer to a fertilised egg as an "unborn child" is simply wrong. In my view, it is still part of the mother until born and able to breath unaided. Therefore the primary duty of all doctors must be to the mother until then. I know some find it difficult and refuse to get involved. That is their personal decision.

i don't think its wrong in every circumstance, but i don't agree with your view on a unborn baby, but that's your view and your entitled to it, but many doctors do not agree with you, and it goes against the original Hippocratic Oath, so it should not be a personal decision at all for doctors, thou some med school had taken the abortion part out of their version of the oath.

as i've already said abortion is not allowed in the original oath, so its not just a doctors personal beliefs, but written in the oath,not to take part in abortions and to preserve all life, my wife has seen many abortions, and has a degree in biology and medicine, and after more than 10years studying at uni. so she knows what the risks are to the mother if she has an abortion (risk of never having kids again, 6 * risk of committing suicide than a 1st time mother, etc) but she is still totally against abortions if it is not a danger to the mother.

from the nhs website..
A doctor or nurse has the right to refuse to take part in abortion if they do not believe in abortion. However, they should always refer you on to another doctor or nurse who will help. The General Medical Council guidance for doctors makes it clear that a doctor's 'personal beliefs' should not affect patient care. There is similar guidance provided by the Nursing and Midwifery Council for nurses, and by The Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain for pharmacists.

this is a cop out by the GMC, saying they can refuse to take part if they do not believe in abortion, when its not allowed in the original oath, and the GMC know they can not force doctors to do abortions, and what would happen if the GMC had tired to force all doctors to carry out abortions?

no woman should have to go thru an abortion, no doctor should have to perform one, and no life should be lost..

and we will never agree by the looks of it :doh

[aromulus]

We can debate this until we are blue in the face and still not get to some common ground.

Yes, it is a thorny, very thorny subject and I for one, am very confused.
I see all points raised are valid and without a doubt show real concern for the issue.

In the end, if the risk of losing the mother is so great that no other alternative can be found to save both, then I think it should be allowed, provided the woman gives consent.

This subject, really, is closely related to research on human embryos.
In some aspects the catholic church is right in being against it, as it will take us somewhere where in the end we will not be very happy... Clones, designer babies, etc.

I said to myself that I wasn't going to get involved in this one, but too late now.
It struck a very painful chord.....

[joebloggs]

just like an Italian,

wait til the fightings is all over :icon_lol:

:xxparty-smiley-004:


sorry dom :ARsurrender:


the number of cases where the mothers life is at risk are low, most abortions are carried out because the woman doesn't want it, remember the ads, a dog is not just for xmas, a dog is for life ? pitty they don't have the same ad for babies :doh


the sun is shining, the front garden needs weeding, and i'll see if i can trick, and mean get little joe to help me :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Piamed]

Health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life, full stop.

And that's the problem isn't it? I, and many others, do not accept that "life" exists at the moment of conception, but only that the potential for "life" exists, whereas a mother is clearly alive and that she must receive the primary concern.

I do not think the F1 car is the best analogy (I know where you are coming from though) but sticking to it for illustrative purposes, I would say the following: If the engine of a F1 car is running but the car is in the pit being tweaked by engineers during fuelling it is no less an F1 car. Reason that the mothers body is the team of engineers and the fuelling line is the umbilical cord.

Rather confused thinking I fear. If the car was totally finished and ready to race, but simply in the pits being tuned, you are right and the same applies, of course, to a baby who is viable. What we are discussing though is not that. I was suggesting that the car's engine was ready,working and being tested, but that the rest of the car was still being developed prior to assembly. Therefore it was not yet a viable F1 car, in the same way a baby is not really a baby until it is complete and able to live without it's mother.
I know we are rather getting bogged down in this and that views are deeply entrenched but I think it is helpful for those who hold the opposing view to be exposed to the rational of those who don't share that viewpoint. I used to be strongly "pro-life" until I thought more deeply about it and realised my arguments were based upon emotions rather than reality.

That health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life cannot be positioned as a problem. From the moment of conception what is growing inside the women is very clearly alive both scientifically and morally. Anyone who knows anything about basic biology can attest to the former. The moral rationale underpinning the validity of life regardless of age or stage of development, is clear to those for whom it is important.

I agree that the analogy and it's development detract from the issue at hand. I am not pro-life at all; I am anti-abortion generally and believe that an abortion is both ending the life of an individual and their potential.

The result of an abortion is that an innocent human being is killed simply because they're in the way and can't defend themselves. That is a legal definition of murder. Don't believe me? Then look check out California state law: "Murder defined: death of a fetus. Paragraph A- Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought." There is a caveat provided to ensure mother's do not get prosecuted as long as they effectively do it in a state registered clinic where the practitioners are also exempt from prosecution Otherwise it's murder pinishable by law. Bottom line: it's murder but if done in a state registered clinic we will not prosecute you.




If you re-read all my posts you will see that I am not suggesting for a moment that abortion is an easy or desirable thing. Far from it, in my view it should always be an action of last resort, the least worse choice, when all other options have failed. Abortion as an alternative to contraception is not acceptable to me at all. I also don't minimise the emotional turmoil undergone by women who undergo an abortion, having witnessed it at first hand.
It would appear that we are aligned on the key issue stated above. You have your own emotional view about unborn babies that is at odds with basic biology but I accept that is your view. It is however an obviously emotional one.



no woman should have to go thru an abortion, no doctor should have to perform one, and no life should be lost..
Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!

[joebloggs]

reasons given for abortions..

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for child/responsibility 25%
- Feels she can't afford baby 23%
- Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19%
- Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 7%
- Interference with education/career plans 4%
- Parents/Partner wants abortion <1%
- Other reasons <6.5%
TOTAL: 93%
(Approx.)

"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
- Mother's Health 4%
- Baby may have health problem 3%
- Rape or Incest <0.5%

from http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html -pro life group,. but i've checked with other sites, and the figures are roughly the same...

93% are because of social reasons..
7% are for medical reasons...

200,000+ abortions in the uk last year -

186,000 aborted because of 'social' reasons..
14,000 for medical reasons..

something the uk can be proud of :rolleyes:

[David House]

As the Hippocratic Oath is being quoted here I took a look on Wikipedia. I quote:-

Although mostly of historical and traditional value, the oath is considered a rite of passage for practitioners of medicine, although it is not obligatory and no longer taken up by all physicians

Derivations of the oath have modified over the years in various countries, schools, and societies as the social, religious, and political importance of medicine has changed. Most schools administer some form of oath, but the great majority no longer use the original version that forbade abortion, euthanasia, and further forbade general practitioners from surgery

It is unsurprising that ancient oaths have to be modified in line with modern medicine and a greater understanding. The modern version is:-

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

This seems to me to suit modern conditions much better and even refers to "the need to take a life". By the way I think that in the Philippines the doctors don't sign the Hippocratic Oath! They sign the Hypocrisy Oath judging by the double standards often employed in deciding how to treat a patient dependent upon their ability to pay!

[Piamed]

The 3% killed because the babies will not be perfect is terrible also. Sure no one wants a congenitally injured baby but many of the 3% can still have a meaningful life and who are we to decide if they are worthy enough of life? In those instances we are just thinking about ourselves. It's still a choice we have to make in those instances and thus in my view these fall into the social reasons category. Mother's health and rape, depending on the mother's condition(emotionally, mentally and physically), are exceptions.

Some special women who have been raped have been able to have the child and either raise it successfully themselves or put it up for adoption. That is unusual though and calls for superhuman bravery and understanding. The figure above show that this reason for abortion is extremely low so should not be focussed upon as a key justifier for abortion.

[joebloggs]

By the way I think that in the Philippines the doctors don't sign the Hippocratic Oath! They sign the Hypocrisy Oath judging by the double standards often employed in deciding how to treat a patient dependent upon their ability to pay!

as for the oath, i stated the original one, and even if the med school leaves it out, the GMC still can not and will not force all doctors to perform abortions, because it is against the original oath and also against the principle of preserving ALL life.

as for doctors in the Phils. you've no idea, how can a doctor ask someone who earns 10k amonth, to go for a CT scan when the cost is 25kphp ? yes that's private medicine for you. the doctor has to supply a treatment the patient can afford, you really think the doctor wants to do that ? , dont blame the doctors for the poverty in the phlis or the lack of a NHS. thats private medicine just like in the USA, the richest country in the world.

and you've no idea of the effort and time doctors and student doctors in the phils give to the patient for nothing, and in some cases they paid for the treatment themselves. many times my misses has told me what they have done for patients for nothing.

my last post on this because you clearly are getting desperate insulting doctors :NoNo:

[David House]

The 3% killed because the babies will not be perfect is terrible also. Sure no one wants a congenitally injured baby but many of the 3% can still have a meaningful life and who are we to decide if they are worthy enough of life? In those instances we are just thinking about ourselves. It's still a choice we have to make in those instances and thus in my view these fall into the social reasons category. Mother's health and rape, depending on the mother's condition(emotionally, mentally and physically), are exceptions.

Some special women who have been raped have been able to have the child and either raise it successfully themselves or put it up for adoption. That is unusual though and calls for superhuman bravery and understanding. The figure above show that this reason for abortion is extremely low so should not be focussed upon as a key justifier for abortion.

I completely agree with this. No-one should be allowed to abort for such reasons.

With regard to Philippine doctors I was maybe being "over the top" as I have experience of both good and bad. There are many who are dedicated and do their best in an imperfect system. There are also those who seem much more interested in their fees than in helping the patient. Having recently supported a relative with terminal cancer I have personal experience of unecessary procedures and time in hospital which was organised entirely for the benefit of the doctor, and not the patient.

[bornatbirth]

reading this as made me thirsty??? wheres my pint :D:):D

[Mrs Daddy]

reading this as made me thirsty??? wheres my pint :D:):D

its coming:66: Hope you dont mind if i sit on the fence :Erm::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[SurvivingAngel]

You're right!!! In Taiwan it is the same, they always add 1 year to our age. They said life begins at the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm.:D

I cannot resist with them as it's sounds true:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Yes, life begins at the moment of fertilization. However, if you compute it, the gestation period does not even reach a year, so I find it strange to consider a baby a year old upon birth.

The ironic thing here is that they would say that it's ok to have the unborn child, with life, aborted if it's below 3 months, thinking there's no life in it yet.

[SurvivingAngel]

reasons given for abortions..

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for child/responsibility 25%
- Feels she can't afford baby 23%
- Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19%
- Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 7%
- Interference with education/career plans 4%
- Parents/Partner wants abortion <1%
- Other reasons <6.5%
TOTAL: 93%
(Approx.)

"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
- Mother's Health 4%
- Baby may have health problem 3%
- Rape or Incest <0.5%

from http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html -pro life group,. but i've checked with other sites, and the figures are roughly the same...

93% are because of social reasons..
7% are for medical reasons...

200,000+ abortions in the uk last year -

186,000 aborted because of 'social' reasons..
14,000 for medical reasons..

something the uk can be proud of :rolleyes:

This only goes to show that some people are not responsible enough for the consequences of their actions. We are now living in a modern society, it's outrageous to see that most women who have had abortion have these social reasons in killing their own flesh and blood. With all the contraceptives you can avail of, some people are not resourceful enough.

[SurvivingAngel]

:Erm:

sin or no sin :Erm: ........ if she thinks its a sin having sex is a sin too :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: ........ :rolleyes: especially if ur not married .......... but if u don't belive in that , well means no sins committed :Erm: i think :icon_lol::D :rolleyes:


Being open to new ideas does not necessarily mean you have to adopt them. Fornication used to be a NO-NO here in the Philippines but people have gradually been influenced by other cultures.

They do things that used to be abhorred by the society but I hope they should be clever enough to avoid whatever unpleasant consequences their actions may bring about.

[SurvivingAngel]

There are also those who seem much more interested in their fees than in helping the patient. Having recently supported a relative with terminal cancer I have personal experience of unecessary procedures and time in hospital which was organised entirely for the benefit of the doctor, and not the patient.

I completely agree with you David. I just came out of the hospital and was made to pay a lot for doctor's fee. I was rushed to the hospital for severe headache caused by sinusitis. There is an Internist that I regularly go to so I had her check me but the hospital called another doctor, a Neurologist, who made me undergo a lot of tests saying it could be because of hypertension.

Three days later, I was asked to pay 4,000 for a two-day visit which was apart from my hospital bill. When I asked her assistant why I had to pay that much I was just told that that's what the Neurologist said.

Some doctors don't care about their patients. All they care about is how much they make from them.

[JudyHon]

That health care professionals are primarily concerned with maintaining each and every life cannot be positioned as a problem. From the moment of conception what is growing inside the women is very clearly alive both scientifically and morally. Anyone who knows anything about basic biology can attest to the former. The moral rationale underpinning the validity of life regardless of age or stage of development, is clear to those for whom it is important.

The result of an abortion is that an innocent human being is killed simply because they're in the way and can't defend themselves. That is a legal definition of murder. Don't believe me? Then look check out California state law: "Murder defined: death of a fetus. Paragraph A- Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought." There is a caveat provided to ensure mother's do not get prosecuted as long as they effectively do it in a state registered clinic where the practitioners are also exempt from prosecution Otherwise it's murder pinishable by law. Bottom line: it's murder but if done in a state registered clinic we will not prosecute you.


Anyone who knows about basic biology will know that the post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being. Should we save them all too? This line in the sand is arbitrary.

A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being. Even you indicated in your initial post that it was a ‘potential being’. I am a potential millionaire, but unfortunately I won’t be making a down payment on that Sunseeker just yet. To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’. Therefore to apply principles accepted for human beings to the blastocyst is a logical fallacy.

Far from the suggestion that ‘ I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.’ This is plain wrong. The dictionary definition of ‘murder’ also refers to killing of a human being. So you are the one with terminology issues. Unless you really believe that week one embryo is a human being. That to me is extreme.

And to cherry-pick legislation to support an argument will not achieve much when it is the exception. That one US state takes such an interpretation does not make it more than an aberration. Even the legislation quoted refers separately to a human being or a foetus. Most in the US and Western Europe do not take this view.

If we are to speak on legality, then I am glad the UK is enlightened enough to enshrine a woman’s rights over her body until the foetus can reasonably survive to become a viable human being without her body. I can’t see it changing any time soon, thank goodness.

This is a deeply personal decision for the mother and to a lesser extent the father. She has the most invested, the most to gain or lose from her decision. Personally, I think anyone else has zero right to comment. A friend should support her, or stop being her friend. Advice is fine if it is based on experience or expertise, but not from personal beliefs. They are called ‘personal’ for a reason.

[adam&chryss]

Anyone who knows about basic biology will know that the post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being. Should we save them all too? This line in the sand is arbitrary.

A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being. Even you indicated in your initial post that it was a ‘potential being’. I am a potential millionaire, but unfortunately I won’t be making a down payment on that Sunseeker just yet. To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’. Therefore to apply principles accepted for human beings to the blastocyst is a logical fallacy.

Far from the suggestion that ‘ I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.’ This is plain wrong. The dictionary definition of ‘murder’ also refers to killing of a human being. So you are the one with terminology issues. Unless you really believe that week one embryo is a human being. That to me is extreme.

And to cherry-pick legislation to support an argument will not achieve much when it is the exception. That one US state takes such an interpretation does not make it more than an aberration. Even the legislation quoted refers separately to a human being or a foetus. Most in the US and Western Europe do not take this view.

If we are to speak on legality, then I am glad the UK is enlightened enough to enshrine a woman’s rights over her body until the foetus can reasonably survive to become a viable human being without her body. I can’t see it changing any time soon, thank goodness.

This is a deeply personal decision for the mother and to a lesser extent the father. She has the most invested, the most to gain or lose from her decision. Personally, I think anyone else has zero right to comment. A friend should support her, or stop being her friend. Advice is fine if it is based on experience or expertise, but not from personal beliefs. They are called ‘personal’ for a reason.

May I ask how many children sir has?

[JudyHon]

May I ask how many children sir has?

May I ask how the number of children someone has has any relevance upon an objective ethical discussion?

[adam&chryss]

You can ask and i`ll answer after you give me your answer, or maybe you have.

[joebloggs]

May I ask how the number of children someone has has any relevance upon an objective ethical discussion?

i'm still waiting for a mother who calls a baby a foetus :Erm:

still no takers...

i'll have a wild guess and say your not a parent, or never have given birth.. maybe your view will change when you have, i hope so, because i'm sure when you tell your family and friends your pregnant with a foetus, they will think your :Cuckoo:

If a foetus does not have a right to life then why aren't all foetus's killed? Also, if a foetus is not a living human being then why does one have to kill it? Why not wait for the foetus to be born and then find out if it really is a living human being?

also are we not all dependant on our environment to sustain our lives? A pre-born baby requires the womb for life. Babies require food and care from others, or they will die. Even adults require air, water, and food from a source outside of themselves.

you keep mentioning 'potential', true we all have the potential to be a millionaire, but also true is that most pregnancies that go full term, will result in the birth of a baby, its more than a 'potential' is it an also certainty that a baby will be born. you may have the potential that you could be PM, but Cameron will almost certainly be MP soon, as a foetus will almost certainly become a baby :doh

not being a mother, i have a good idea thou, of a bond btw a mother and child, and the price and sacrifices a mother will do for their child. no matter what the cost. Nobody or nothing can even come close to the bond a mother and child have, and that bond for many starts the day she finds out she is pregnant

:ARsurrender: peace to you all. life is too short and precious to waste

[David House]

Anyone who knows about basic biology will know that the post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being. Should we save them all too? This line in the sand is arbitrary.

A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being. Even you indicated in your initial post that it was a ‘potential being’. I am a potential millionaire, but unfortunately I won’t be making a down payment on that Sunseeker just yet. To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’. Therefore to apply principles accepted for human beings to the blastocyst is a logical fallacy.

Far from the suggestion that ‘ I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.’ This is plain wrong. The dictionary definition of ‘murder’ also refers to killing of a human being. So you are the one with terminology issues. Unless you really believe that week one embryo is a human being. That to me is extreme.

And to cherry-pick legislation to support an argument will not achieve much when it is the exception. That one US state takes such an interpretation does not make it more than an aberration. Even the legislation quoted refers separately to a human being or a foetus. Most in the US and Western Europe do not take this view.

If we are to speak on legality, then I am glad the UK is enlightened enough to enshrine a woman’s rights over her body until the foetus can reasonably survive to become a viable human being without her body. I can’t see it changing any time soon, thank goodness.

This is a deeply personal decision for the mother and to a lesser extent the father. She has the most invested, the most to gain or lose from her decision. Personally, I think anyone else has zero right to comment. A friend should support her, or stop being her friend. Advice is fine if it is based on experience or expertise, but not from personal beliefs. They are called ‘personal’ for a reason.

It will come as no surprise to anyone following this debate that I agree 100% with this and think it is very well expressed.
I have two children and four grandchildren but fail to see what relevance that has to this discussion.

[JudyHon]

You can ask and i`ll answer after you give me your answer, or maybe you have.

It seems a pity that people views are not considered objectively, and on their merits. When arguments are not rebutted, but summarily dismissed due to the situation of the person holding views, it's a bit sad.

Some could argue that parents are particularly ill-suited to advise in this area as their judgements will be necessarily clouded by their personal experience that would most likely be a world away from the terrible circumstances that some pregnant women find themselves in. Perhaps the only people who's views should really stand apart from other's are those who have had to make this terrible decision themselves? Not friends, not doctors, not parents, not religious speakers, not forum posters.

I did not intend to post at all on this personal and contentious issue. Judy wanted to give some advice to MrsDaddy and asked me to type her view, which I did. It was one I support - that this is a very personal choice, and any friend should support unconditionally and not advise or judge.

When her post was then undermined in what I think was a somewhat dismissive manner with a :doh for good measure, let’s say I got a bit irritated, and then pursued an ethical debate at some tangent to the start of the thread. Seems however my views are void due to my circumstances.

I still believe a world without abortion would be a dystopia awash with unwanted and maltreated children and dangerous backstreet abortion practices. Perhaps the Catholic Church could step in to take care of these children? Pro-life could work in a perfect world. Unfortunately not in this one.

Actually the answer to the question is that it is a ‘sin’ if you are a true believer, but this should have no bearing on being a friend.

Thnaks:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Mrs.JMajor]

Shawn I find you very smart on debate hahaha
Peace !!!

[JudyHon]

i'll have a wild guess and say your not a parent, or never have given birth.. maybe your view will change when you have, i hope so, because i'm sure when you tell your family and friends your pregnant with a foetus, they will think your :Cuckoo:

Context is everything. In an ethical debate, emotive terms are unsuitable for objective discussion. I suspect I will succumb to convention, but that does not mean I will be unaware of the misuse of the word. We misuse words in colloquial speech every day.

If a foetus does not have a right to life then why aren't all foetus's killed? Also, if a foetus is not a living human being then why does one have to kill it? Why not wait for the foetus to be born and then find out if it really is a living human being?

I never said all foetuses should be killed. This does not detract from the fact that to equate foetuses with human beings or entitle them to equal rights is a deceit.

also are we not all dependant on our environment to sustain our lives? A pre-born baby requires the womb for life. Babies require food and care from others, or they will die. Even adults require air, water, and food from a source outside of themselves.

This a biological dependence, not an environmental dependence. This is an almost unique situation where two living organisms spare one body, and one is entirely dependent on the other – effectively a ‘host’. Once born babies and adults gain a degree of autonomy where they are not dependent entirely on one individual. Therefore this ‘one individual’ to me must have the casting vote.

you keep mentioning 'potential', true we all have the potential to be a millionaire, but also true is that most pregnancies that go full term, will result in the birth of a baby, its more than a 'potential' is it an also certainty that a baby will be born. you may have the potential that you could be PM, but Cameron will almost certainly be MP soon, as a foetus will almost certainly become a baby :doh

The ‘millionaire’ example was for levity. The point remains that potential is a world away from actual, and so the treat as the same is false. To treat Cameron as MP now and give him the nuclear codes does not make sense. And probability is not the issue.

not being a mother, i have a good idea thou, of a bond btw a mother and child, and the price and sacrifices a mother will do for their child. no matter what the cost. Nobody or nothing can even come close to the bond a mother and child have, and that bond for many starts the day she finds out she is pregnant

Exactly, so why would you second guess her? If despite all you say above about the bond, and the limitless sacrifices a mother will make, she still decides she is determined to get rid of the life inside of her, who are we to deny her? Better under medical supervision than in a backstreet at great personal danger.

We will never agree on this subject, because so little is known about the foetal development, and 'life' and 'human being' mean different things to different people. The greatest minds and philosophers have failed to come up with a clear answer, and no answer will please everyone.
:ARsurrender:

[David House]

i'm still waiting for a mother who calls a baby a foetus :Erm:

still no takers...

i'll have a wild guess and say your not a parent, or never have given birth.. maybe your view will change when you have, i hope so, because i'm sure when you tell your family and friends your pregnant with a foetus, they will think your :Cuckoo:

If a foetus does not have a right to life then why aren't all foetus's killed? Also, if a foetus is not a living human being then why does one have to kill it? Why not wait for the foetus to be born and then find out if it really is a living human being?

also are we not all dependant on our environment to sustain our lives? A pre-born baby requires the womb for life. Babies require food and care from others, or they will die. Even adults require air, water, and food from a source outside of themselves.

you keep mentioning 'potential', true we all have the potential to be a millionaire, but also true is that most pregnancies that go full term, will result in the birth of a baby, its more than a 'potential' is it an also certainty that a baby will be born. you may have the potential that you could be PM, but Cameron will almost certainly be MP soon, as a foetus will almost certainly become a baby :doh

not being a mother, i have a good idea thou, of a bond btw a mother and child, and the price and sacrifices a mother will do for their child. no matter what the cost. Nobody or nothing can even come close to the bond a mother and child have, and that bond for many starts the day she finds out she is pregnant

:ARsurrender: peace to you all. life is too short and precious to waste

I don't think anyone under-estimates the emotional tie that a woman feels when she knows she is pregnant, or the stress she feels if she then considers, for whatever reason, having an abortion. I think therefore that we can all agree on this. However, with respect, that is not the point.
The point at issue is the additional guilt which is being laid on her by describing an abortion as taking a "life" or "murder" when it is clear to many of us that it is no such thing. A woman undergoing an abortion is likely to suffer enormous emotional problems, and in my experience they can last for a very long time. For the pro-life lobby to make things worse for her just seems so cruel. What I would like to see is understanding and support given to ease the pain. This is a difficult ethical matter for many people but I think the UK position is about right. When I read some of the extreme views expressed in the USA by the pro-life lobby I shudder at the thinking and am so glad we live in a more liberal country.

[Sophie]

mrs daddy, its on page 7 now, more pints to go :D:D:D:D

[joebloggs]

I have two children and four grandchildren but fail to see what relevance that has to this discussion.

and when your wife was pregnant, did she consider it to be a foetus or a baby, and what did you think ?

relevance is, if you've been pregnant you have a better idea of what your talking about than if you haven't.

i'll sum up my case..

The NHS abortion service is heading for a crisis because increasing numbers of doctors refuse to carry out terminations.There has been a big rise in young medics with 'conscientious objections' to abortion.

Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.

why is there a 24wk limit on abortions in the uk, if it is not a baby until its breathes its first breathe ?

there are many risks from having a abortion. higher risk of suicide, cancer, increased risk to later pregnancies, link between abortion and mental illness in women with no previous history of psychological problems.

93% of abortions are for social reasons, not medical reasons.

that's my views on this and none of my views have got anything to do with religion, but are to preserve life.

[Mrs Daddy]

mrs daddy, its on page 7 now, more pints to go :D:D:D:D

golly gush:yikes::yikes::yikes: I have to save up for it now sophie:yikes::yikes::yikes: I think they`re trying to do it now intentionally:doh:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: they`re getting serious:omg: I dont have any intention of any misjudgement and misunderstanding for each and every individual here afterall we were ex foetus many years ago:xxgrinning--00xx3::D:D:D

[Jamesey]

Anyone who knows about basic biology will know that the post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being. Should we save them all too? This line in the sand is arbitrary.

A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being. Even you indicated in your initial post that it was a ‘potential being’. I am a potential millionaire, but unfortunately I won’t be making a down payment on that Sunseeker just yet. To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’. Therefore to apply principles accepted for human beings to the blastocyst is a logical fallacy.

Far from the suggestion that ‘ I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.’ This is plain wrong. The dictionary definition of ‘murder’ also refers to killing of a human being. So you are the one with terminology issues. Unless you really believe that week one embryo is a human being. That to me is extreme.

And to cherry-pick legislation to support an argument will not achieve much when it is the exception. That one US state takes such an interpretation does not make it more than an aberration. Even the legislation quoted refers separately to a human being or a foetus. Most in the US and Western Europe do not take this view.

If we are to speak on legality, then I am glad the UK is enlightened enough to enshrine a woman’s rights over her body until the foetus can reasonably survive to become a viable human being without her body. I can’t see it changing any time soon, thank goodness.

This is a deeply personal decision for the mother and to a lesser extent the father. She has the most invested, the most to gain or lose from her decision. Personally, I think anyone else has zero right to comment. A friend should support her, or stop being her friend. Advice is fine if it is based on experience or expertise, but not from personal beliefs. They are called ‘personal’ for a reason.

Along with David House, I'm a parent and agree 100% with the quote above.

But I don't see what relevance one's personal situation has. This subject needs to be debated by looking at the facts, without judgment being clouded my emotion or religion.

[Sophie]

golly gush:yikes::yikes::yikes: I have to save up for it now sophie:yikes::yikes::yikes: I think they`re trying to do it now intentionally:doh:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: they`re getting serious:omg: I dont have any intention of any misjudgement and misunderstanding for each and every individual here afterall we were ex foetus many years ago:xxgrinning--00xx3::D:D:D

korek, hahahaha :D:D:icon_lol::icon_lol:

[joebloggs]

debated by looking at the facts, without judgment being clouded my emotion or religion.

I'm not religious, so no clouds there..

fact most doctors do not want to perform abortions

fact 93% are for social reasons

fact some woman who have abortions face medical and psychological problems.


the only thing i think were disagreeing on, is a foetus 'alive' and whether it is a baby or not

and should a woman be able to decide if and when she can have an abortion.


i find it sad that there are 200,000 abortions in the uk a year for social reasons, you may call these 'mistakes', but is anyone learning from these 'mistakes' ?

there should be no excuse for it in the uk (phils where the lady is from, is a different story), when contraception is sold in many places, and is given freely in some places, wether condom, pill or implant or other methods, the only reason i can think why people dont take them, is that people can not be bothered :NoNo:, and a 'mistake' is made, and ending up in the death of a life. maybe 'potenital' life to you, fact is most would be born if not aborted.

you all talk of facts, well if you have any facts or evidence to show that the vast majority of these 'potential' life's or foetus's would not become normal babies when born, please send me a link. I'm more than willing to read it. if you can't, I take it these 'potential' life's you talk of, are more than a potential, but is a certainty, they would be in the vast majority healthy babies.

were not going to get 10 pages out of this mrs daddy, as we've gone as far as we can get i think :Cuckoo:. and you owe enough drinks now :D

[Mrs Daddy]

were not going to get 10 pages out of this mrs daddy, as we've gone as far as we can get i think :Cuckoo:. and you owe enough drinks now :D

thats problem solve Mr.Bloggs:xxgrinning--00xx3:thanks a lot:Hellooo::Hellooo::Hellooo:

[David House]

and when your wife was pregnant, did she consider it to be a foetus or a baby, and what did you think ?

It is too long ago for me to remember and we were both young and immature anyway. Whatever emotional response anyone has does not change the biological facts. We must take decisions on facts and not on emotions.

relevance is, if you've been pregnant you have a better idea of what your talking about than if you haven't.

Why? You only have a better idea of what it is like to be pregnant, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about when "life" exists.

i'll sum up my case..

The NHS abortion service is heading for a crisis because increasing numbers of doctors refuse to carry out terminations.There has been a big rise in young medics with 'conscientious objections' to abortion.

I will take your word on this, although I have seen no such evidence myself. I trust as they get older they might become wiser.

Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception.

I cannot see any justification for such a statement. In fact I think that "science" actually says rather the opposite. The key word is "human". An fertilised egg is not a "human".

From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.

And your point is? No doubt you could extract DNA from an egg and a sperm and calculate what the resultant human would be, but that does not make a human exist. The point is that the fertilised egg/embryo has not yet developed but merely has the potential to do so.

why is there a 24wk limit on abortions in the uk, if it is not a baby until its breathes its first breathe ?

I am no expert but surely that is the very earliest time when it is theoretically possible for a live birth to occur.

there are many risks from having a abortion. higher risk of suicide, cancer, increased risk to later pregnancies, link between abortion and mental illness in women with no previous history of psychological problems.

Which is why it should be an act of last resort and why any women having to face it deserves as much support and understanding as possible, and not an additional layer of guilt.

93% of abortions are for social reasons, not medical reasons.

I too am not comfortable with any abortion carried out as an alternative to contraception.

that's my views on this and none of my views have got anything to do with religion, but are to preserve life.

I have no argument at all about wishing to preserve life. My argument is about when life really starts and about making already stressed women feel guilty.

[joebloggs]

and when your wife was pregnant, did she consider it to be a foetus or a baby, and what did you think ?

It is too long ago for me to remember and we were both young and immature anyway. Whatever emotional response anyone has does not change the biological facts. We must take decisions on facts and not on emotions.

as i said before, i don't know anyone who has said, "I'm pregnant and my foetus is going to be a potential life" :doh



The NHS abortion service is heading for a crisis because increasing numbers of doctors refuse to carry out terminations.There has been a big rise in young medics with 'conscientious objections' to abortion. [/I][/COLOR]

I will take your word on this, although I have seen no such evidence myself. I trust as they get older they might become wiser.

don't take my word, look at the links i posted b4 and search goggle, young or old, many doctors are against abortion and many abortions are carried out by private clinics because many NHS doctors are against it.

you all keep talking about evidence, then show me a link where most doctors are in favour of abortion .



why is there a 24wk limit on abortions in the uk, if it is not a baby until its breathes its first breathe ?

I am no expert but surely that is the very earliest time when it is theoretically possible for a live birth to occur.

if so why is it 12 or 13wks in many parts of Europe ?


there are many risks from having a abortion. higher risk of suicide, cancer, increased risk to later pregnancies, link between abortion and mental illness in women with no previous history of psychological problems.

Which is why it should be an act of last resort and why any women having to face it deserves as much support and understanding as possible, and not an additional layer of guilt.

maybe guilt is the last thing on some women's minds Conservative MP Philip Hollobone said it was "truly appalling" that in England in 2006, there were 59,687 abortions by women who had already had at least one abortion.
:NoNo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7385099.stm



93% of abortions are for social reasons, not medical reasons.

I too am not comfortable with any abortion carried out as an alternative to contraception.

again some people are not hearing the message of contraception or don't give a :censored: and why should the NHS and doctors have to sort their 'mistake' out


good we agree on some things :xxgrinning--00xx3:, but looks like never of the other thnigs :doh

[bornatbirth]

being bornatbirth im glad i wasnt terminated or i couldnt post here? :xxgrinning--00xx3:

btw where do babies come from?

[Tawi2]

its coming:66: Hope you dont mind if i sit on the fence :Erm::icon_lol::icon_lol:
Never sit on the fence,your only going to get splinters in your bum :action-smiley-081:

[Piamed]

Anyone who knows about basic biology will know that the post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being. Should we save them all too? This line in the sand is arbitrary.

A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being. Even you indicated in your initial post that it was a ‘potential being’. I am a potential millionaire, but unfortunately I won’t be making a down payment on that Sunseeker just yet. To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’. Therefore to apply principles accepted for human beings to the blastocyst is a logical fallacy.

Far from the suggestion that ‘ I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.’ This is plain wrong. The dictionary definition of ‘murder’ also refers to killing of a human being. So you are the one with terminology issues. Unless you really believe that week one embryo is a human being. That to me is extreme.

And to cherry-pick legislation to support an argument will not achieve much when it is the exception. That one US state takes such an interpretation does not make it more than an aberration. Even the legislation quoted refers separately to a human being or a foetus. Most in the US and Western Europe do not take this view.

If we are to speak on legality, then I am glad the UK is enlightened enough to enshrine a woman’s rights over her body until the foetus can reasonably survive to become a viable human being without her body. I can’t see it changing any time soon, thank goodness.

This is a deeply personal decision for the mother and to a lesser extent the father. She has the most invested, the most to gain or lose from her decision. Personally, I think anyone else has zero right to comment. A friend should support her, or stop being her friend. Advice is fine if it is based on experience or expertise, but not from personal beliefs. They are called ‘personal’ for a reason.
Sir, are you aware of the basic tenets of life are? Additionally, I refer to extant literature and you respond by saying you have looked at a dictionary.

I understand why you might believe that particular legislation was cherry-picked. Actually, I came across it by accident but it was relevant so it was included. I'm sure you appreciate my position is clearly not based upon that 1 piece of legislation. There are other references to be found; I just dont have the time to pull them out. That you do not think an unborn baby is a human is beyond words and takes you into a realm of incredulity.

I've stated some of my experience and alluded to my expertise. If you believe others without both of these determinants have no right to comment, why are you doing so? It appears as though in your haste to be part of a discussion you've again tripped over your own exuberance.

The bottom line is that you speak of facts without emotion, religion and emotional bias, yet have presented no facts. Whether 100 people agree with you or not is irrelevant. You have said stick to the facts so please provide the facts/evidence underpinning your statements below:


Post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being
A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being
To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’

[bornatbirth]

then stick to the facts!

when does a babies life begin?

its seems no proof of fact as been presented by either argument :Erm::doh

and saying you havent given birth or not being a mother isnt one! it just means you was horny?

[joebloggs]

then stick to the facts!

when does a babies life begin?

its seems no proof of fact as been presented by either argument :Erm::doh

and saying you havent given birth or not being a mother isnt one! it just means you was horny?

fact - my misses who has a degree in biology and medicine :D , and she says that life begins at conception, something many doctors agree with.

if it doesn't then when does it ? 38wks, 26wks, 24 wks, 12 wks ?? take your pick. but your just playing with numbers, it has to start somewhere, and to many that's at the point of conception.

everythnig has a start and end, and this post has reached the end for me ... :ARsurrender:

[bornatbirth]

exactly no facts!

just guessing?

[joebloggs]

exactly no facts!

just guessing?


an educated guess, based on a biology degree, degree in medicine and more than 10yrs at uni.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

anyone else got a better educated guess ???

[Piamed]

[QUOTE=bornatbirth;138127]then stick to the facts!

when does a babies life begin?

its seems no proof of fact as been presented by either argument :Erm::doh
QUOTE]

A clue: the answer to your question is inherent in itself.

I stated my position clearly many times and have referenced my statements when I felt it pertinent. Because some cannot abide by religious principles, let's stick to science. Life begins when the tenets of biology say it does. It seems that some are arguing that there is no life in an unborn as they do not know how life is defined in biology. They are coming up with personal definitions even though they say that personal insight is invalid. Hmmn! In anticipation that someone will yet again repeat what I say and naievly try to turn it back to me, I will reiterate that I do not say things I cannot reference to a broad range of informed sources.

Someone challenged the anti-abortionists here on the basis that they wanted to see a debate wrought from facts, without emotion, religion and emotional bias, yet have presented no facts. That is their requirement yet they have not been able to meet their own expectations.

Anyway, I've said my peace. The pro-abortionists can continue but hopefully will provide some evidence for the 3 points I've highlighted from JudyHon's portfolio of unfounded statements. Somehow I doubt it though. I'm on my travels now. Peace.

[Mrs Daddy]

Never sit on the fence,your only going to get splinters in your bum :action-smiley-081:

That`s true:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[David House]

[QUOTE=bornatbirth;138127]then stick to the facts!

when does a babies life begin?

its seems no proof of fact as been presented by either argument :Erm::doh
QUOTE]

A clue: the answer to your question is inherent in itself.

I stated my position clearly many times and have referenced my statements when I felt it pertinent. Because some cannot abide by religious principles, let's stick to science. Life begins when the tenets of biology say it does. It seems that some are arguing that there is no life in an unborn as they do not know how life is defined in biology. They are coming up with personal definitions even though they say that personal insight is invalid. Hmmn! In anticipation that someone will yet again repeat what I say and naievly try to turn it back to me, I will reiterate that I do not say things I cannot reference to a broad range of informed sources.

Someone challenged the anti-abortionists here on the basis that they wanted to see a debate wrought from facts, without emotion, religion and emotional bias, yet have presented no facts. That is their requirement yet they have not been able to meet their own expectations.

Anyway, I've said my peace. The pro-abortionists can continue but hopefully will provide some evidence for the 3 points I've highlighted from JudyHon's portfolio of unfounded statements. Somehow I doubt it though. I'm on my travels now. Peace.

To describe those on the other side of this debate as "pro-abortionists" is inaccurate and as emotionally charged as much of what is said by the "pro-life" lobby. No-one is, I believe, "pro-abortion". The argument is not really about whether you are in favour of abortion, only whether it can ever be acceptable. For some it is, for others it cannot be in any circumstances.
It is the same about trying to define "life". For some, me included, "human life" does not truly exist unless, and until, a baby draws it's first unaided breath. Until then it is an extension of it's mother and totally dependent upon her. Her life exists, but not a new independent one. Others have an alternative view but how far back do you want to go as "life" exists at many levels. In my view the debate needs to concentrate upon when a "human" exists, and that surely cannot be at the moment of conception. The distinction may be a fine line but it is a very important one in an ethical debate. Those who would put women at risk by denying them the opportunity to have a safe abortion, when no other reasonable option is available, have a lot to answer for. This is an imperfect world. Poor people, with too many mouths to feed, may be driven into the hands of dangerous back street abortionists. Practical solutions are required not theoretical concepts.

[Mrs Daddy]

This thing freaks me out:yikes::yikes::yikes:I dont know if its a coincidence that somebody has put a dead hairless chick (or a foetus chicken) looks like just came out from its egg in our garden post!Oh God!why me:doh This things makes me freak out:Brick::CompBuster::CompBuster::CompBuster:

[JudyHon]

Sir, are you aware of the basic tenets of life are? Additionally, I refer to extant literature and you respond by saying you have looked at a dictionary.

I understand why you might believe that particular legislation was cherry-picked. Actually, I came across it by accident but it was relevant so it was included. I'm sure you appreciate my position is clearly not based upon that 1 piece of legislation. There are other references to be found; I just dont have the time to pull them out. That you do not think an unborn baby is a human is beyond words and takes you into a realm of incredulity.

I've stated some of my experience and alluded to my expertise. If you believe others without both of these determinants have no right to comment, why are you doing so? It appears as though in your haste to be part of a discussion you've again tripped over your own exuberance.

The bottom line is that you speak of facts without emotion, religion and emotional bias, yet have presented no facts. Whether 100 people agree with you or not is irrelevant. You have said stick to the facts so please provide the facts/evidence underpinning your statements below:


Post-conception fertilised egg is not any more alive than the sperm or ovum, and they have the same potential for creating a human being
A fertilised egg or embryo is not a human being
To call a ball of cells a ‘human being’ is a bigger misnomer than calling a week old embryo ‘a baby’


Honestly, there is no need to call me Sir. I know my posts are compelling, but such reverence is excessive. Unless you are being facetious which seems a rather unchristian trait.

I am not limiting my expertise to the Dictionary. Actually, I do have some expertise in the field of biology, but don’t wish to crow about it. Referring to objective definitions to correct obvious misnomers seemed like a reasonable place to start however. I think your experience and expertise count for little as you have never had to take a decision on abortion. I have already indicated the single group whose experience puts them above the rest of us in such a discussion.

I know enough about the issue to be aware that there are myriad theories about when life starts, and no single biological ‘truth’ all accept. None is provable, and people more knowledgeable than you and I cannot agree on a specific ‘moment’. Some argue that life does not begin at all – it is a continuous cycle or continuum – hence my reference to sperm and ovum.

I don’t recall saying an unborn baby is not human. I stand by my assertion that a fertilised egg is not a human being. That there is a difference seems obvious to me and a great many people. Very few people (at least in the UK) equate the two and to say they are the same thing seems to me a fundamentally incredible statement.

Frankly I could argue the toss over this one until doomsday, but what is the point. We are going round in circles already, and life’s too short.

I would however, say that you do seem to have a bad case of double standards. When the discussion was on religion, you emphasised the need to respect believers views when I used the terms ‘brain-washing’, ‘fairy tales’ and ‘irrelevant’ in association with organised religion. But now you wade into this discussion banding around terms such as ‘preposterous, pathetic, myopic, naïve’ to other equally valid dissenting views. You do your argument no favours using such pejorative terms.

Perhaps your religious views are inherently more deserving of respect? Or maybe just your views? I suggest I am not the only one who could be accused of ‘tripping over their exuberance’ whatever that means. Everyone is entitled to express their views here.

Thanks. That’s my lot. Enjoy chasing your tails… :D

[adam&chryss]

I beleive the thread is "is it a sin? "
Also I beleive if the lady in question wanted facts then i`m sure she could Google the answers like anyone else.
I thought she`d like some advice from people that have been in the situation of expecting a child as part of a family.
How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?
I can remember my wife telling me she was pregnant and how happy we were.
As far as i`m concerned thats when the life of my son began and you can quote any facts you want, they mean nothing to me.
So, Is It A Sin? I guess you`ll have to beleive in god to judge that.

[David House]

How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?

Tell that to the Priests and Nuns! They do it all the time, on this subject and many other matters!

[Mrs Daddy]

How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?

Tell that to the Priests and Nuns! They do it all the time, on this subject and many other matters!

Thats true:xxgrinning--00xx3:and that keeps me thinking:Erm:

[Piamed]

[QUOTE=Piamed;138137]

To describe those on the other side of this debate as "pro-abortionists" is inaccurate and as emotionally charged as much of what is said by the "pro-life" lobby. No-one is, I believe, "pro-abortion". The argument is not really about whether you are in favour of abortion, only whether it can ever be acceptable. For some it is, for others it cannot be in any circumstances.
It is the same about trying to define "life". For some, me included, "human life" does not truly exist unless, and until, a baby draws it's first unaided breath. Until then it is an extension of it's mother and totally dependent upon her. Her life exists, but not a new independent one. Others have an alternative view but how far back do you want to go as "life" exists at many levels. In my view the debate needs to concentrate upon when a "human" exists, and that surely cannot be at the moment of conception. The distinction may be a fine line but it is a very important one in an ethical debate. Those who would put women at risk by denying them the opportunity to have a safe abortion, when no other reasonable option is available, have a lot to answer for. This is an imperfect world. Poor people, with too many mouths to feed, may be driven into the hands of dangerous back street abortionists. Practical solutions are required not theoretical concepts.I don't believe calling those in favour of abortions in any variety of contexts, pro-abortionists is at all incorrect. From many of the postings it is clear that some are generally against abortions as options - anti-abortionists, and there are those who are in favour of abortions as options - pro-abortionists. Pro-life and and pro-choice are not substitutable terms in my view, as to my mind they are used inconsistently across the various forumers.

I do not believe the term pro-abortion is any more emotionally charged than the term pro-choice when used as an inappropriate antithesis to pro-life or anti-abortion.

The cardinal signs are demonstrated by the growing entity within the womb and thus according to biological principles it is living. It appears that biogy suited so many when used in contexts opposing religious ideology but is inappropriate now.

Anyway, I've said my peace.


Honestly, there is no need to call me Sir. I know my posts are compelling, but such reverence is excessive. Unless you are being facetious which seems a rather unchristian trait.

I am not limiting my expertise to the Dictionary. Actually, I do have some expertise in the field of biology, but don’t wish to crow about it. Referring to objective definitions to correct obvious misnomers seemed like a reasonable place to start however. I think your experience and expertise count for little as you have never had to take a decision on abortion. I have already indicated the single group whose experience puts them above the rest of us in such a discussion.

I know enough about the issue to be aware that there are myriad theories about when life starts, and no single biological ‘truth’ all accept. None is provable, and people more knowledgeable than you and I cannot agree on a specific ‘moment’. Some argue that life does not begin at all – it is a continuous cycle or continuum – hence my reference to sperm and ovum.

I don’t recall saying an unborn baby is not human. I stand by my assertion that a fertilised egg is not a human being. That there is a difference seems obvious to me and a great many people. Very few people (at least in the UK) equate the two and to say they are the same thing seems to me a fundamentally incredible statement.

Frankly I could argue the toss over this one until doomsday, but what is the point. We are going round in circles already, and life’s too short.

I would however, say that you do seem to have a bad case of double standards. When the discussion was on religion, you emphasised the need to respect believers views when I used the terms ‘brain-washing’, ‘fairy tales’ and ‘irrelevant’ in association with organised religion. But now you wade into this discussion banding around terms such as ‘preposterous, pathetic, myopic, naïve’ to other equally valid dissenting views. You do your argument no favours using such pejorative terms.

Perhaps your religious views are inherently more deserving of respect? Or maybe just your views? I suggest I am not the only one who could be accused of ‘tripping over their exuberance’ whatever that means. Everyone is entitled to express their views here.

Thanks. That’s my lot. Enjoy chasing your tails… :D
Sir, I do find much in your postings compelling. Btw, your statement that I have never had to make a decision is related to abortion false as you do not know what I've had to do. You categorised expertise and experience as being key criteria, stated you have expertise and minimised my own even though you have no idea what mine is :NoNo: That's not nice is it? As you know, there is absolutely nothing in life universally accepted. That's a given. We are clearly polarised on what you believe is an issue relating to the unborn being human beings. Sobeit.

Preposterous: Contrary to nature
Pathetic: Evoking sympathy (I don't recall saying that but assume you are correct that I did)
Myopic: Limited perspective
Naive: lack a critical examination


Saying that I believe that some your statements fell into the above does not disrespect you in my view. nor does it harm the essential you and further it does not pour scorn on any of your ideologies. Are you really suggesting I perjured myself? Come, come now!

Everyone is entitled to express their views as many have done! Nothing wrong with exuberance but it can lead to premature enthusiasm. Peace.

I've been travelling, am tired, hungry and want to go and kiss my wife and marvel at the new things Marikit is doing. Today she has learned to coordinate her arms so she can reach out and grab the teddy bears on the mobile. :xxgrinning--00xx3:That takes precedence.

Wish you all the best, I shall gracefully retire from this thread. All the best to you out there.

[joebloggs]

How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?

Tell that to the Priests and Nuns! They do it all the time, on this subject and many other matters!

and you think the 60,000 women in the uk in 2006 who had abortions, and had already had at least one abortion, would be best people to give advice on abortions? maybe on making 'mistakes', they are surely are not qualified to give advice on contraceptive methods.

my wife has not experienced an abortion herself, but she has seen 100s of abortions in the phils, some for medical reasons, most because of women turning up at A & E bleeding from failed backstreet abortions, in just one night when she was a student doctor she witnessed more than 50 abortions, i think that gives her some experience of abortions, and maybe the reason why she and many doctors are against them.

[JudyHon]

Sir, I do find much in your postings compelling. Btw, your statement that I have never had to make a decision is related to abortion false as you do not know what I've had to do. You categorised expertise and experience as being key criteria, stated you have expertise and minimised my own even though you have no idea what mine is :NoNo: That's not nice is it? As you know, there is absolutely nothing in life universally accepted. That's a given. We are clearly polarised on what you believe is an issue relating to the unborn being human beings. Sobeit.

Preposterous: Contrary to nature
Pathetic: Evoking sympathy (I don't recall saying that but assume you are correct that I did)
Myopic: Limited perspective
Naive: lack a critical examination


Saying that I believe that some your statements fell into the above does not disrespect you in my view. nor does it harm the essential you and further it does not pour scorn on any of your ideologies. Are you really suggesting I perjured myself? Come, come now!

Everyone is entitled to express their views as many have done! Nothing wrong with exuberance but it can lead to premature enthusiasm. Peace.

I've been travelling, am tired, hungry and want to go and kiss my wife and marvel at the new things Marikit is doing. Today she has learned to coordinate her arms so she can reach out and grab the teddy bears on the mobile. :xxgrinning--00xx3:That takes precedence.

Wish you all the best, I shall gracefully retire from this thread. All the best to you out there.

Sir,
Unless you have a uterus that you weren't letting on, you couldn't personally have had to take the decision I was refering to. I was talking in an earlier post about a pregnant woman who finds herself facing this decision, and the resulting experience that she would bring to a discussion. In some fields expertise may be a basis for advice, but I don't think is one of them.

Three of the four negative terms were not actually directed at my posts, but either other people's (who happened to have opinions that it is the individual's choice) and a 'pathetic' quality of the pro-choice view itself. But good to know they can be applied to all dissenters.

I don't believe I referred to perjuring at all.:Erm:

[bornatbirth]

after all that is it still a sin???

[Mrs Daddy]

after all that is it still a sin???

that`s the question:Erm:

[joebloggs]

we're not gonna get 10 pages out of this :doh

time for me to call it a day.. i bet all you lot are pro hunting, pro vivisection:icon_lol:

just joking :D


i think its time to go ... things are getting a bit nasty now.. :NoNo:


:xxparty-smiley-004:


caesar dom, you might be needed here soon :NoNo:

maybe time to lock this thread..

[Sophie]

we're not gonna get 10 pages out of this :doh

time for me to call it a day.. i bet all you lot are pro hunting, pro vivisection:icon_lol:

just joking :D


i think its time to go ... things are getting a bit nasty now.. :NoNo:


:xxparty-smiley-004:

now on page 8, i don't think going to 10 is unlikely :D:D

[bornatbirth]

if they was footie fans they could take a bit of banter? :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Mrs Daddy]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon :NoNo:

maybe time to lock this thread..

I second demotion as you all doing my head in:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Mrs.JMajor]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon :NoNo:

maybe time to lock this thread..

That is against human rights :yikes: cant they just express thier opinion Mod Joe:xxanimal-smiley-085
:icon_lol::icon_lol:

[joebloggs]

That is against human rights :yikes: cant they just express thier opinion Mod Joe:xxanimal-smiley-085
:icon_lol::icon_lol:

potential people don't have rights :doh


:D

[Florge]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers... and hmmmm.... i can't think....

[Sophie]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers

I will have to agree. I guess that's the simplest way to put it. We might as well just leave it at that. Debating about it further would be totally pointless anyway, IMO that is. :)

[adam&chryss]

I will have to agree. I guess that's the simplest way to put it. We might as well just leave it at that. Debating about it further would be totally pointless anyway, IMO that is. :)

yep!

why don't we just make a poll :Erm: same as what mod did.. the answer will be just yes or no. no need to discuss or explain ur answer :D

coz as what i have said this is a never-ending debate.

[pennybarry]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers... and hmmmm.... i can't think....

The problem is, the believers are the doers:omg::icon_lol::NoNo:

It was the topic yesterday at BBC 1. NHS found out that ABORTION is falling in England while in Scotland, it is increasing.:D

[Florge]

The problem is, the believers are the doers:omg::icon_lol::NoNo:

It was the topic yesterday at BBC 1. NHS found out that ABORTION is falling in England while in Scotland, it is increasing.:D

That's why the believers think that it is a sin... :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bornatbirth]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin! :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Mrs Daddy]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin! :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Thats make me think of it as well:Erm::Erm::Erm:

[aromulus]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon :NoNo:
maybe time to lock this thread..

Do it yourself...:omg:

The thread is going quite nicely, the topic is not something I would like to talk and debate about, but opens the mind to the way people think.

[Florge]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin! :xxgrinning--00xx3:

yup.. could be the case... :)

[bornatbirth]

so we have gone from abortion being a sin,to the sin being committed more by people believing its a sin? :Erm:

and all i thought that a mother should have the choice to have a baby or not but the big question is at what point can she terminate the baby???...as even the best doctors and even different countries cant agree on this?