exam results

[les_taxi]

bloody exam results! get em down pit and building railroads proper jobs. years spent partying at uni then hopefully job at matalan!

[bornatbirth]

your just jealous!

[maria_and_matt]

bloody exam results! get em down pit and building railroads proper jobs. years spent partying at uni then hopefully job at matalan!

what is your problem:icon_lol:, for us parents exam results are a big deal

[les_taxi]

modern society!

[maria_and_matt]

oh okay, whatever:icon_lol:

[scott&ligaya]

Well done to your child, and to you for providing the platform form which they can succeed.

the essence of the problem is the dumbing down of exams to get school pass rates up and therefore better league table places coupled with creating universities from lower level institutions and the explosion of "new" degrees in all manner of ridiculous subjects. A British education used to be sought after, nowadays it is second rate in many areas of the country. Many wealthier Hong Kong locals (where we used to live) valued our education system and used to send their kids to ESF schools and then on to further education in the UK. Now they choose Canada, Australia and China and want the kids receiving IB programme not A or AS levels.

[KeithD]

Worthless exams for business. Labour have the policy of no losers! :doh

[les_taxi]

the number of "uni" students i taxi who can't do simple maths and who's basic english is poor amazes me.now media studies, parties and maybe a huge student debt before applying for shop floor job at matalan! why not start in work straight away and they could be be branch manager in a few years hiring the students lol.

[maria_and_matt]

the number of "uni" students i taxi who can't do simple maths and who's basic english is poor amazes me.now media studies, parties and maybe a huge student debt before applying for shop floor job at matalan! why not start in work straight away and they could be be branch manager in a few years hiring the students lol.

not all uni students end up working in matalan... i want my son to have a good future so we tell him to work hard so he gets somewhere in life. i am so proud of what my son has achieved and i am 100% sure that all his hard work will pay off.

[KeithD]

Why debt anyway? The charges have been in place long enough for the parents to have saved up for their kids further eduaction!

[maria_and_matt]

Why debt anyway? The charges have been in place long enough for the parents to have saved up for their kids further eduaction!

yep, my sons child benefit and money given to him om bdays and xmases.. and we put a little each month to go towards his uni fees...

[les_taxi]

not all uni students end up working in matalan... i want my son to have a good future so we tell him to work hard so he gets somewhere in life. i am so proud of what my son has achieved and i am 100% sure that all his hard work will pay off.

yes i agree with you but i can't help thinking that the system is at fault and i hope your sons hard work does pay off:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Matt7]

I don't have a problem with exam results. Having been a product of the system, its not the kids fault for knowing the answers.....its the school and governments fault

Its the governments fault for setting the wrong targets for schools, and its the schools fault for being so wrapped up in the crappy government targets they only care about getting the kids to pass, as opposed to giving them a proper, well rounded education

Old people need to realise this

[KeithD]

Old people need to realise this
:Erm:

[bornatbirth]

Old people need to realise this

:icon_lol: any one over the age of 23 is old?

before you know you will be older too!

[Matt7]

:icon_lol: any one over the age of 23 is old?

before you know you will be older too!

I never said that ;)

But the older a person gets, the more they moan about how much easier exams are getting. Its almost a perfect science :D

[KeithD]

..... the more they moan about how much easier exams are getting. Its almost a perfect science :D
Not quite true.

The FACT exams have got easier has been proven numerous times by an number of independent institutions.

One simple instance is that the University exam to get in has not changed for decades, and yet a large % of A students now fail them.

Another example, students from pre-Labour were given the GCSE paper, while those from today were given the equivalent O Level paper. The GCSE takers all past with an A, the O Level's all failed. They run this test on different people over different subjects.

Before the mid 90's we used to be taught in school the subjects we had taken, now they are taught how to pass an exam. In fact, in some subjects now you get a pass without even taking an exam. :doh ....and 50% of the exam is already complete before they take the paper, that result is decided by the teacher, and strangely they all pass! :Erm:

[somebody]

Not quite true.

The FACT exams have got easier has been proven numerous times by an number of independent institutions.

One simple instance is that the University exam to get in has not changed for decades, and yet a large % of A students now fail them.

Another example, students from pre-Labour were given the GCSE paper, while those from today were given the equivalent O Level paper. The GCSE takers all past with an A, the O Level's all failed. They run this test on different people over different subjects.

Before the mid 90's we used to be taught in school the subjects we had taken, now they are taught how to pass an exam. In fact, in some subjects now you get a pass without even taking an exam. :doh ....and 50% of the exam is already complete before they take the paper, that result is decided by the teacher, and strangely they all pass! :Erm:

Word GCses were introducded a year or two before i got to the stage of taking them. Back then most of the experienced teachers taught the same way they did the o levels etc. Learn about the subject the course work was relevant. Many of these teachers who we all respected left the teaching game over the next few years.

Having been in many educational organsations from primary to universitys its all about figures and upward trends blah blah.

Many youngsters are still good candidates to be taking on but we at my firm have no faith in the results at all levels and IB seem to be just as effy we have noticed as an indicator of talent. We now test extensively all candidates in many ways. Many with high levels of results are found to be not what we require while those with what looks bad on paper actualy have decent basic 3 r's skills, common sense, able to think logically, good skills and knowledge on the subjects of intrest to us.

So dont write off your kids if they dont get lots of A's but if they do get high marks do try and make sure its not because they get on with their teachers and the System works for them.

We also aim all our CV's as evidence of what people have done so if your kids may not be the best in the classroom. Get them lots of practical hands on experience. If they want to go in to IT or office work ECDL or ms , and IT qualifcations like A+ N+ and MCp's etc.

Volunteer work, scouts, red cross volunteers, take part in sports and possibly help organise them, working in a shop or other business as a saturday worker all show the candidate may have real world skills.

A person who can run a football club/ church days organise trips away, attend a job in a charity workplace (get their on time, work hard and make a difference) would score more highly than a person with a A in media studies.

We look for these example on CV's of people who may have leadership skils, able to work with people in a team, people who can organise themsleves or others. Those who want to learn, Of course those who wish to work and likely to have a good attendance no point in being a world expert in a subject if they are forever late and not at work.

[joebloggs]

:icon_lol: any one over the age of 23 is old?

before you know you will be older too!

he's already 1/3 of the away into being 6ft under :cwm24:

:D

[aromulus]

Old people need to realise this

Don't worry lad, you will grow out of youth.:doh

[joebloggs]

the number of "uni" students i taxi who can't do simple maths and who's basic english is poor amazes me.now media studies, parties and maybe a huge student debt before applying for shop floor job at matalan! why not start in work straight away and they could be be branch manager in a few years hiring the students lol.

my misses is :censored: at maths, but shes managed to get 2 degrees without the need for maths :D thou i wish she had taken one in common sense to :icon_lol:

i think you're a bit jelly les :rolleyes: they don t give you A's for just spelling your name right on the exam paper :NoNo:.................. i think you get a B for that :doh

:D

[les_taxi]

Word GCses were introducded a year or two before i got to the stage of taking them. Back then most of the experienced teachers taught the same way they did the o levels etc. Learn about the subject the course work was relevant. Many of these teachers who we all respected left the teaching game over the next few years.

Having been in many educational organsations from primary to universitys its all about figures and upward trends blah blah.

Many youngsters are still good candidates to be taking on but we at my firm have no faith in the results at all levels and IB seem to be just as effy we have noticed as an indicator of talent. We now test extensively all candidates in many ways. Many with high levels of results are found to be not what we require while those with what looks bad on paper actualy have decent basic 3 r's skills, common sense, able to think logically, good skills and knowledge on the subjects of intrest to us.

So dont write off your kids if they dont get lots of A's but if they do get high marks do try and make sure its not because they get on with their teachers and the System works for them.

We also aim all our CV's as evidence of what people have done so if your kids may not be the best in the classroom. Get them lots of practical hands on experience. If they want to go in to IT or office work ECDL or ms , and IT qualifcations like A+ N+ and MCp's etc.

Volunteer work, scouts, red cross volunteers, take part in sports and possibly help organise them, working in a shop or other business as a saturday worker all show the candidate may have real world skills.

A person who can run a football club/ church days organise trips away, attend a job in a charity workplace (get their on time, work hard and make a difference) would score more highly than a person with a A in media studies.

We look for these example on CV's of people who may have leadership skils, able to work with people in a team, people who can organise themsleves or others. Those who want to learn, Of course those who wish to work and likely to have a good attendance no point in being a world expert in a subject if they are forever late and not at work.

thats what i like to see good post:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[RickyR]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were


One mother said her daughter had been removed from school after being accused of wearing the wrong trousers, another that her son had been permanently expelled for smoking.

A father claimed his son had been sent home for walking the wrong way down the corridor, another that his 16-year-old daughter was kicked out after getting a kiss from her boyfriend at the school gates. And underlying it all was a feeling that Trinity, the third state funded secondary to be run by an evangelical Christian and friend of Tony Blair, Sir Peter Vardy, was pushing an aggressive religious agenda. Cindy Denise, whose two children are both at Trinity, claimed pupils were disciplined if they did not carry the Bible on certain days and summed up the mood at the meeting, describing the school as "a complete joke". "They are kicking children out for nothing and won't listen to anyone who wants to know what is going on."

The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article


Trinity Academy in Thorne said it had nearly doubled the number of pupils achieving at least one A-level pass, from 44 in 2008 to a record 73 today. It also reported a record number of students heading to university with more than two-thirds of its passes at grade C or higher.

Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/politics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/Doncaster-Alevel-grades-improve.5572290.jp

[les_taxi]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were



The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article



Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/politics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/Doncaster-Alevel-grades-improve.5572290.jp

yep thats what my original post was all about:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[somebody]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were



The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article



Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/politics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/Doncaster-Alevel-grades-improve.5572290.jp

Word.

All the new breed of career MP's and cvill servants who went to uni think everyone should go.

Its a waste for many, we need people to have more real world Experience and practical skills.

Although some of the acadmies we have links with at my firm sometimes i feel could do better for the pupils they are
improving as they go along. Mainly by getting employers in who help suggest what skills and knowledge they are looking for.

Also helps when a pupil is told that they wouldn't get a job by an actual potential employer rather than a teacher seen a few
suddenly find more urgency once that happens.

[joebloggs]

For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?


my misses brother in law has worked on ships for many years, (misses thinks he might be a 1st mate or an officer of some sort:Erm:) he gets paid well, but he's away 6 months' of the year,so he's missed his kids growing up and it has caused some problems with his relationship with his wife. so that's the sacrifice he has paid to bring home a good wage, but time is one thing money cannot buy you.

labour party want more students going to uni, which i think i read somewhere they have achieved, especially more working class kids.

money is not everything, you might get paid well but hate your job, or get paid :censored: but like what you do. i suppose you have to find a balance, but a degree with get your foot in the door, experience with probably get you the job.

i think some people who **** off degrees haven't been to uni, so maybe some jelly belly there :D

good you got where you did, but were all not the same :rolleyes:

[somebody]

my misses brother in law has worked on ships for many years, (misses thinks he might be a 1st mate or an officer of some sort:Erm:) he gets paid well, but he's away 6 months' of the year,so he's missed his kids growing up and it has caused some problems with his relationship with his wife. so that's the sacrifice he has paid to bring home a good wage, but time is one thing money cannot buy you.

labour party want more students going to uni, which i think i read somewhere they have achieved, especially more working class kids.

money is not everything, you might get paid well but hate your job, or get paid :censored: but like what you do. i suppose you have to find a balance, but a degree with get your foot in the door, experience with probably get you the job.

i think some people who **** off degrees haven't been to uni, so maybe some jelly belly there :D

good you got where you did, but were all not the same :rolleyes:


Degrees like vocational courses have there uses. The current regime goverment/cvill service whoever think we need lots of people who have studied a degree any degree.

We need Technicans, we need Craftspeople we need people with practical skills.

Joe seriously Like Ricky I know plenty of people of various ages who in the nineties and noughties went to Uni wasted some time there and got no degree or a poor degree or switched to a "easier Degree" or qualfication. Also plenty who did post gradute. For the amount of investment 5-10-15 years later the career path they have taken does not justify the time, money and effort.

It maybe their choice/right but from the country's pespective its not clever sending huge amounts of people to Uni to do courses which they for various reasons are going to not achieve the best for them, industry private or public, or the country.

I was told by one young man who was working with our company on work experience who is the first to admit is not very academic but very practical minded and wants some sort of Engineer/craftsman role was told by some careers advisor he should consider University as he can achieve so much more.

Firstly a well paid Engineer/craftsman will earn far more than many a paper shuffler. Secondly the guy needs more hands on experience not learn how to write reports which being honest is just not his bag.

When he looked for practical courses the choice is very limited to the huge amount of academic courses.

I think Ricky like me knows you need people with good acadmeic skills you need scientists, doctors, even lawyers. But we need people with various skills surely?

Look at the academies many are teaching far more pratical/vocational skills. Why because the people who will employ or possibly hire tradespeople or crafts people know there are huge shortages. People with a so so Degree or one in a subject not required are ten a penny..

Look at the current crisis in many areas apart from the west midlands which manufacturing has been battered due to the lack of credit etc. In many comuter towns the ones who suppy the major towns and cities with office workers are the ones really being hit. Some commuter belt towns have levels of employment never seen. But I still see adverts for skilled crafts people.

Like in the private sector once the public sector have to reduce costs, local authorities and cvill service departments are surely going to reduce admin staff (more likely to be degree holders) but front line staff (less likely to be degree holders) who are needed to reach targets or bring in income etc. Will be less effected..

[joebloggs]

We need Technicans, we need Craftspeople we need people with practical skills.

apprenticeships hardly exist any more.

and where will they come from andy if it's not thru uni ? do you mean the practical skills gained by many Filipinos here, who applied for a student visa to do a nvq 'working' in a care home while 'studying' at 'joe bloggs' college :doh

you might not use the knowledge you gained from your degree in the job you do, but the employer knows at least you had the capacity to pass your degree, something some school leavers couldn't do.

everyone is different andy, so what if you end up as a manager at mc dons with your arts degree if that's what you want to do

[Tawi2]

.

[maria_and_matt]

I made a few quid,not in a way any of you have ever done I shouldnt think,but my kid has had it drummed into him from the off that he needs to go to Uni,I always wanted to go,my dad was old school 18 years in the navy and 20 years in the prison service,he always told me "Dont be stupid,forget university and get a real job":icon_lol:Sadly I followed his advice:icon_lol:I want my kid to have a decent Uni degree,he wants to be a Vet thankfully,but education is something that cant be taken away from us,unlike posessions,cash etc,its got a better value than anything monetary :)

very well said :D, my son thankfully is aware that in order to get a decent job he needs to go uni, at 15 he still has not made up his mind what to do, but he's got his heart set at either being a barrister ( he is thinking how he would be like if he has to defend a guilty person) or a games developer ( he sure has the imagination to be one).

[Tawi2]

.

[maria_and_matt]

Always encourage him to the maximum,whatever he wants to do help him as far along the road as you can,some of us didnt have the backing of positive parents and regret it to this day:xxgrinning--00xx3:Oh yeah,and dont forget his power-kite :xxgrinning--00xx3::)

he tells me off for encouraging him now, he thinks i go over the top:rolleyes:, i just want him to know that whatever he decides to do i will be backing him up 100%, he is a smart boy, he achieved good results with minimal effort. i would like to see how he'd do if he actually puts the effort in.

and matt i know from time to time you read my post here (often to correct my grammar:icon_lol:), i just want you to know i am so proud of you, and i wish you would talk to me more rather than be staring at computer screen or yelling abuse at your friends in xbox:bigcry::bigcry: love yah, peace out:icon_lol::icon_lol:

[somebody]

apprenticeships hardly exist any more.

and where will they come from andy if it's not thru uni ? do you mean the practical skills gained by many Filipinos here, who applied for a student visa to do a nvq 'working' in a care home while 'studying' at 'joe bloggs' college :doh

you might not use the knowledge you gained from your degree in the job you do, but the employer knows at least you had the capacity to pass your degree, something some school leavers couldn't do.

everyone is different andy, so what if you end up as a manager at mc dons with your arts degree if that's what you want to do

Thats the point we need more Apprenticeships and vocational course. Degrees are needed but not 60-70 percent of the nations students surely?

What uni course should a plumber/sparky going on maybe later he or she may want to do a degree if they go in to managment but learning to write flash reports wont help them in the early days.
Before you say there are plenty of apprenticeships avaiable there are not.

Many of my managers and directors were apprentices or went to on some vocational course.

As I mentioned before when i'm involved in employing people from trainnees to highly specialised IT experts. Im not intrested in if they can pass an exam, I want to know what they retain from it, what skills they have. Could they manage people, can they manage themsleves.

Rarely do I find people to work in projects or ongoing operations. where handing in some paperwork and then rememebering facts and formulas etc for an exam are the required requirments. So while a indicator the person has some intelligence and what not. There is far more required.

A huge cost to our is finding people is retraining people once they are employed. I know how our engineering department before we started the extra testing had to constantly fill the gaps in new candidates basic skills and make allowances while they catch.

We had Electronic engineers with a bsc after their name who couldn't use test equipment, unable solder or perform hands on work in general! Compuer science gradutes who can't code the list could go on.

The degrees they do seem to try and cram into much and worried to much about teaching them how to aim for the top. They forget you need to move on need to in many careers do the basics correctly first. Also not evryone can be the leader. Everyone finds there level, sorry 70 percent of the youth of england cant all be managment surely?
So why dont they give them the skills to get going the rest they can learn as they go along as the theory for the managment side will be out of date or they will have forgotten how to write the long report.

Lets face Joe very few phills would come here degree holders or not if econmonic factors were not involved. As we both know many are highly skilled and qualified like you, I know some of them personally. But many do gain practical skills and experience then move onto nursing etc and stay in the UK or move on.

A lot of the people teaching staff and careers advisors seem to think anything but a degree is of no use. That they must always try and make the pupil feel good and manual work/engineering for example why do that. Why be a nurse when you can be a doctor. Also ways good to aim high but you need to be a realist and ensure they reach at least a basic level
Chucking them on a degree course and them either failling or that their degree mark so poor they wasted their time is crueler surely? Now they are three or four years behind their peers.

Plenty of school friends got to a certain level gcse, a level, btec diploma or hnd and they never needed a degree. Others took the trainnee or apprenticeship route and worked there way to a satisfying career.
Many have exceeded the ones who went the degree route.

No one soultion fits all

[Peanutz]

Definitely agree with you Andy.

A degree will not make you desirable to be hired. Who analyse your CV will look at your experience and skills and most importantly 'Attitude'.
These are the key things that will give you a chance to be hired.

[KeithD]

Are any Uni's doing degrees in gang bangs, oral sex, prostitution (or does that come under business studies)? :Erm:

[aromulus]

Are any Uni's doing degrees in gang bangs, oral sex, prostitution (or does that come under business studies)? :Erm:

I am not quite sure, but I know for a fact that some uni's are giving courses on "Victoria and David Beckam"...

Pretty much the same I reckon......:D

[joebloggs]

Thats the point we need more Apprenticeships and vocational course. Degrees are needed but not 60-70 percent of the nations students surely?

As I mentioned before when i'm involved in employing people from trainnees to highly specialised IT experts. Im not intrested in if they can pass an exam, I want to know what they retain from it, what skills they have. Could they manage people, can they manage themsleves.

We had Electronic engineers with a bsc after their name who couldn't use test equipment, unable solder or perform hands on work in general! Compuer science gradutes who can't code the list could go on.


Definitely agree with you Andy.

A degree will not make you desirable to be hired. Who analyse your CV will look at your experience and skills and most importantly 'Attitude'.
These are the key things that will give you a chance to be hired.

60-70% of the pop :yikes:, as my sister would say' what planet are you on ?' :icon_lol:
i think only 1/3 of the pop ever go to uni, and i bet, like in everything else, were at the bottom of any euro tables on the % of pop who attended uni.

your not interested if they have or can pass an exam :Erm:, so you would let someone who can manage others or themselves touch your customers server and at best they've installed windows xp at home :D, over someone who has a mcse or even a IT degree :doh, at least they have an idea what a bit, nibble and byte is :rolleyes:

as for engs and computer grads, who couldn't code or use test equipment, you cannot expect them to know every bit of equipment out there, or code in every language under the sun straight away.

attitude is nothing compared to experience and qualification, being able to do the job correctly is what's important not being able to blag about it.

sure we need more apprenticeships, but we need more working class kids going to uni, it shouldn't be a right for just the well off, it should be a right for everyone who is capable.

[somebody]

60-70% of the pop :yikes:, as my sister would say' what planet are you on ?' :icon_lol:
i think only 1/3 of the pop ever go to uni, and i bet, like in everything else, were at the bottom of any euro tables on the % of pop who attended uni.

your not interested if they have or can pass an exam :Erm:, so you would let someone who can manage others or themselves touch your customers server and at best they've installed windows xp at home :D, over someone who has a mcse or even a IT degree :doh, at least they have an idea what a bit, nibble and byte is :rolleyes:

as for engs and computer grads, who couldn't code or use test equipment, you cannot expect them to know every bit of equipment out there, or code in every language under the sun straight away.

attitude is nothing compared to experience and qualification, being able to do the job correctly is what's important not being able to blag about it.

sure we need more apprenticeships, but we need more working class kids going to uni, it shouldn't be a right for just the well off, it should be a right for everyone who is capable.

Just wrote out a long reply and it dissapeared as something about me beign logged in already. Anyways will give u in a nutshell a response.

Tony Bliar in 2006 wanted 50 percent and at the moment all schools education authorties want to push there pupils in to uni. They dont care what they do there but it looks good for next years figures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/britain-slipping-down-world-league-table-of-university-attendance-415761.html


This passage from the above page was of intrest.

The UK was well below Australia, the Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Korea, Mexico, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia and Sweden, whose figures rose between 33 per cent and 169 per cent over the same period.

Mr Schleicher said most of the these countries had a strong vocational strand of education - along the lines recommended by the inquiry into 14 to 19 education by the former chief schools inspector Sir Mike Tomlinson but rejected by Mr Blair.

The Prime Minister had been worried before the last election that replacing A-levels and GCSE with an overarching diploma covering both academic and vocational qualifications would be seized on by the Conservatives as evidence he was scrapping the "gold standard" of education.


Ie because of Bliars (its suposed to be that way round) pride Pupils suffer as we must get more uni students
Hes a link i found not sure of the underlying message of the website but the bullet points made sense to me

http://www.economicshelp.org/2007/10/should-50-of-students-go-to-university.html

Many of those we test who cant give examples of their work, or dont seem to outside of the classroom use there computing skills seem to fail our own tests during the interview process. We all know paper mcse certs holders etc.

Grr i wrote pages and pages and dont have the time to replicate.

Maybe another day but i do know some pupils i work with its just a waste of time them going to uni to do a degree any degree while others should go at all costs even when its a hardship for the family.

But to many will get no benefit and fail possibly they will attempt another degree and have a huge gap or two faillures on their cv which employers notice and from friedns experience this really affects their chances and of course they have all the debt and none of the benefits. Many friends are still recovering ten years later and have not started pension funds while young as they had to catch up on the other debts:NoNo:

I totally agree uni should be avaiable to those who really need it at from any background not just the upper classes:xxgrinning--00xx3:

But the silly herding people into uni to do a degree any degree for figures is downright evil on the poor pupil who may suffer for theit entire life.

Oh ps the test equipment in question with several of these new workers was a multimeter any electronic engineer should be abale to measure current and voltage surely. On the language tip yes not all lanuages but the ones they claim to be qualififed in would help:D

[joebloggs]

We all know paper mcse certs holders etc.

I think them days are well gone Andy, i think they ended around 2000 when Ms changed to adaptive testing. cannot just download the questions and answers like in the days of mcse nt4 :D

but at least a mcse is more useful than a degree if your applying for a job in IT support etc.

Andy this country does NVQ's, there are many here studying them, filipinos coming to the UK to do NVQ's, and you know its being abused as cheap labour and illegal working by dodgy colleges above your local take away.

sure the gov should use a combination of nvq's, apprenticeships and uni degrees to educate the school leavers, but i don't think its up to the gov to tell you what you can or can't do. equal opportunities for all, but i don't think all kids would want to go to uni, many want out of school and start earning some money, and yes, don't forget these school leavers will have to pay your pension, so you should want the best for them :D

[RickyR]

Just to clarify, I'm not against a university education. As 'Somebody' said, it's all about what degree is being studied, what it is worth and how will it be used. But doing a degree in History just for the sake of having a degree, isn't a good enough reason to justify 4 years and tens of the thousands of pounds.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that everyone take a career at sea, its worked for me and just to mention that unlike Filipino Seafarers I normally work 1 month on / 1 month off (Filipino working conditions unfortunately are still catching up) which enables a lot of quality time with my family.

I think encouraging and supporting careers as Electricians, Plumbers and any other trade should be encouraged in schools. Taking an apprenticeship shouldn't be looked down up on. Unfortunately the focus in schools is that everyone should do the same, and there seems to be a strong focus on people becoming IT programmers or business management.

Then again in IT, as has been mentioned earlier, the best programmers I have met are people who knew C++ and Visual Basic at 14 years old, and were working in IT at 18 having never been to Uni. On the flip side, I've met people who have done degrees in IT and can write software which looks fine, but has to debugged by someone who actually understands the code. I'm not saying that a degree in IT isn't the way forward, but it isn't the answer in every case.

The Education system needs changes, but will that happen?

[KeithD]

Always write long posts in Notepad.

[somebody]

I think them days are well gone Andy, i think they ended around 2000 when Ms changed to adaptive testing. cannot just download the questions and answers like in the days of mcse nt4 :D

but at least a mcse is more useful than a degree if your applying for a job in IT support etc.

Andy this country does NVQ's, there are many here studying them, filipinos coming to the UK to do NVQ's, and you know its being abused as cheap labour and illegal working by dodgy colleges above your local take away.

sure the gov should use a combination of nvq's, apprenticeships and uni degrees to educate the school leavers, but i don't think its up to the gov to tell you what you can or can't do. equal opportunities for all, but i don't think all kids would want to go to uni, many want out of school and start earning some money, and yes, don't forget these school leavers will have to pay your pension, so you should want the best for them :D

Nope plenty of people brain dumping still Mate trust me. Still have drones who come off boot camps with no prectical experience think all we want is someone who has crammed and passed an exam or two. Adaptive makes it tougher but not impossible to be coacheed though them.


Regarding the younger generation doing well

Exactly I want them to do well and the forcing people into schemes to fix targets take them off the dole or what have yuou really bugs me.

I know there are NVq's and plenty of other options other than the typical degree which will never suit all but way to many pupils are pressured into them.
The goverment shouldn't tell you what to do but it does seem pressure and spin is put on various levels of the education system for headlines:NoNo:

As well the school leaver possibly paying my state pension like me they should have there own one or some form of savings from early age.Are you aware of the huge issue of student loans, seen way to many people still burdened with the debt years later and often they didn't get a result which made the pain worth it. This are the ones who often have to put off saving in a pension scheme. They will burden the country far more surely?

Many who started the schemes when trainees or college leavers now i know have a decent pension pot sometimes very decent one as their wages have gone up and many are now self employed or owners of Business Employing others:xxgrinning--00xx3: They also didn't waste huge amounts of goverment money in attempting to keep up with the joneses or ensure schools sent enough pupils off to uni:rolleyes:

We have trainee Field engineers in another department they have degree holders in there and plenty who just went to college or straight from school. From the three different groups there is no particular pattern from what I can see.

The company wants people with a good attitude, mechnical and electrical know how. But mostly they want them to be trained up in the way they want them to work.

Now I know after a few years many are on 25-30k plus then of course regional allowances and good benefits. Chance of progression blah blah
So what is the point if a Pupil ask the careers advisor ( i remeber asking one "helping " me while at school what she had doen in the past a lot of mumbling happened :D ) who says oh yeah but look with your grades you may just clear at a uni in this degree not a popular uni or not many takers for the course "but your have a degree" Go on try it, even if its for the experience:rolleyes:

So the pupil goes off changes course to media studies as they offered him a place after a year as not for him eventually passes the course but nothing special and needs a job. Theres a recession on the public services no longer require people with a degree any degree.
So the pupil relies at their school qualfications which were technolgy based and gets on a trainee scheme. They find themsleves selected due to doing well in the assements. They get a trainee pay rate which means they can pay off the student loan but not great.
A friend at school joined the trainee scheme at 18 now is fully qualified and earning a decent wage no debt imposed on them and able to bulid there life much quicker. Due to starting earlier in the career they pick up things quickly ready to adapt not set in there ways. Move on to managment.

The orignal pupil four/five years older and of course he has a degree much wiser doesn't find it so easy to pick up things or be told what to do. He has a degree those supervising/mentoring him for example his old class mate dont.

Do I know of examples of this maybe not people from the same school but plenty of Engineers in our company who are doing ok wish they had not been advised when they knew there path go on get a degree it will make you a better person.

[joebloggs]

and how long would someone last andy with a paper mcse ? a day :D, i'm sure the numbers are nothing like they were around 2000, when you could take all your exams in 1wk and memorise 200 questions on each and pass :D

sure going to uni for the sake of it is not a good idea, but even if you think a history degree is useless, it shows in the majority of cases that the student can at least study, read and write at a higher level than a school leaver who doesn't. try a level 3 course at uni and see the standard required.

as for programming, i was one of them kids, at 18-21 i was earning a lot more money then, then i do now. but someone who has been to uni will have studied the boring theory side, something self taught ones will not be bothered doing, such as programming techniques to minimize bugs and be able to write a structured program, like JSP - showing my age :rolleyes:.


you need the theory so you reduce the risk of :censored: something up, and yes it all becomes experience, something you cannot buy, and it takes time :D. that's why i'm sure if 2 people had the same experience and one had a degree, the one with a degree would get the job, but if one person had a degree and no experience and another had experience of the job, the one with just the experience would probably get the job.

and i'm sure being at sea is a great life and adventure, but once your wed, with kids, then for me, they would come first.

[Peanutz]

Most millionaires and successful people has been dropped off from Uni :)

[somebody]

and how long would someone last andy with a paper mcse ? a day :D, i'm sure the numbers are nothing like they were around 2000, when you could take all your exams in 1wk and memorise 200 questions on each and pass :D

sure going to uni for the sake of it is not a good idea, but even if you think a history degree is useless, it shows in the majority of cases that the student can at least study, read and write at a higher level than a school leaver who doesn't. try a level 3 course at uni and see the standard required.

as for programming, i was one of them kids, at 18-21 i was earning a lot more money then, then i do now. but someone who has been to uni will have studied the boring theory side, something self taught ones will not be bothered doing, such as programming techniques to minimize bugs and be able to write a structured program, like JSP - showing my age :rolleyes:.


you need the theory so you reduce the risk of :censored: something up, and yes it all becomes experience, something you cannot buy, and it takes time :D. that's why i'm sure if 2 people had the same experience and one had a degree, the one with a degree would get the job, but if one person had a degree and no experience and another had experience of the job, the one with just the experience would probably get the job.

and i'm sure being at sea is a great life and adventure, but once your wed, with kids, then for me, they would come first.

Many people who had certs used to get bumped higher in the ranks for a job as it was all points scoring certainly at our workplace. We found it was costing a fortune in retraining or simply then trying to get rid of those who simply couldn't hack it (sacking a person is not that easy or cheap as you know)
So like Many places we may ask for those with qualifications but we ask those with evidence based cv's to apply.

If we needed a person for a team leader, supervisor or junior manager for example we may ask to see qualifications but we also look for those with team leader skills possibly developed outside.
Competency based interviewing if done and in depth checks and tests done you can prove people can do what they claim. You also don’t think oh he has a business management degree and this other guy doesn't but has all the technical skills and experience of the company just because he has developed real world team leader and management skills he is any worse.

That’s why if they program or create things such as websites. We ask them to show us examples and then ask them to write or comment on existing lines of text or website. To see if they really can.

Many from the fresh out of Uni and no experience whether in the bedroom or in a charity job creating/admining the charities website. Would waffle on a lot but often not give us the responses we would expect. The guy who has actually done it we would ensure can do what we ask. Would you not give them the same opportunities?

It certainly beats relying on CV's, qualifications, and a couple of interviews.

I’m not involved so much but the apps writing team we have are a mixed bunch while many have degrees some have moved over from departments and are self taught. The ones I deal with if i need their assistance are normally the ones who are self taught it seems they are more opened minded and ready to take on more challenges. Why I don’t know but they are more can do.
I do know that they simply would not have got the job if they didn't produce the goods, while possibly the uni trained ones rely on techniques they learned at uni who knows possibly had to much help in getting it right?
Also From experience I know that in all levels of my Education when creating I.T based projects it was not about always completing the project but documenting that you could you may not get an A grade but definitely a pass or even a B. But we both know what people think on paper may work and what actually happens are very different.
Those who had to develop skills outside of education generally have to actually make a working product otherwise your like well you can’t do it can you.

I know the point of Degrees but don’t rely on it solely make sure you can show what you actually can do and be able to prove it:)