Has anyone had a baby here???????

[georges1986]

Hello, im new on here and really need some advice.

My brothers girlfriend is pregnant and currently lives in the phillipines, does anyone know if she can come here to have the baby? he isn't 100% sure the child is his but is quite happy to sign the birth certificate and bring the child up as his here in the uk. Does anyone know if this is possible, do they do a blood test to prove who the father is before the baby goes home?

Please please help us.

Thank you georgina x

[johncar54]

We have a friend here in Spain who got pregnant when she visited Phil for a holiday. On her return her English husband was prepared to accept the baby as his and the baby has a British passport. Of course if it ever came to light he has committed perjury and I guess the child would loose the passport.

[darren-b]

Is he planning to marry her in the next 6 months?

[aromulus]

We have a friend here in Spain who got pregnant when she visited Phil for a holiday. On her return her English husband was prepared to accept the baby as his and the baby has a British passport.

:omg:

[jimeve]

We have a friend here in Spain who got pregnant when she visited Phil for a holiday. On her return her English husband was prepared to accept the baby as his and the baby has a British passport. Of course if it ever came to light he has committed perjury and I guess the child would loose the passport.

Some strange looks from the midwife when she delivers a half Pinoy baby.

[angel1231]

:cwm23::cwm23:

[Tawi2]

We have a friend here in Spain who got pregnant when she visited Phil for a holiday. On her return her English husband was prepared to accept the baby as his and the baby has a British passport. Of course if it ever came to light he has committed perjury and I guess the child would loose the passport.

How did she explain that Pasalubong to her husband :Erm:Reminds me of the old saying "Mummys baby:xxgrinning--00xx3:Daddys.............Maybe:Erm:"

[Sophie]

How did she explain that Pasalubong to her husband :Erm:Reminds me of the old saying "Mummys baby:xxgrinning--00xx3:Daddys.............Maybe:Erm:"

LOL :D:D:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[johncar54]

She told him when she returned that she was pregnancy. He accepted it. Simple as that. Unfaithful but not a liar.

[Tawi2]

He is slightly more forgiving than the average husband :Erm:

[KeithD]

My brothers girlfriend is pregnant and currently lives in the phillipines,.....
:doh Although I never judge folk on here, generically I do get very annoyed when UK guys treat Filipina's in the Homeland the same as they do UK women, especially as in the Philippines this is still looked upon as very disrespectful, and the lady in question still has to live with the family.

In answer to your question, the pregnancy is irrelevant, she has to go through the same visa process as everyone, and depending on pregnancy term by the time all that is done the airline may not let her fly.

[georges1986]

my brothers girlfriend, is not married. they was just a couple who met and fell in love and she got pregnant. We are 99.9% sure the baby is his, however she had not long split with her ex, they are a really lovely couple and are excited about the baby however we was just worried about her coming here and having the baby here as they are not married she is not a british citizen but we was hopeing the baby would be if the baby was born here and my brother who is british signs the birth certificate? even if the baby is not his he will still bring the baby up as his, will they do a dna test on the baby when he/she is born to prove he is the father?

[georges1986]

Oh also, he wasn't planning on marrying her just yet, they haven't know each other that long, and how long does it take to get a visa?

[johncar54]

I wonder if the Phil knows about condoms?

My wife worked for BHW and amongst other health worker assistance they used to distribute free condoms.

Whats wrong with girls who get pregnant thus making a struggle to exist even harder and making them less likely to find a husband ?

[GaryFifer]

Hello, im new on here and really need some advice.

My brothers girlfriend is pregnant and currently lives in the phillipines, does anyone know if she can come here to have the baby? he isn't 100% sure the child is his but is quite happy to sign the birth certificate and bring the child up as his here in the uk. Does anyone know if this is possible, do they do a blood test to prove who the father is before the baby goes home?

Please please help us.

Thank you georgina x

I asked my GP, and most people say no, because of the simple thing, she is not a British Citizen. So you would have to pay. I am in Scotland, wherever you are, make sure you ask the simple question for your brother. Here are the rules on website:

Overseas visitors Department of Health (http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074373)

I have been through this situation. I weighed this difficult decision too. She can come over as visitor, if you flew her over. But the rules for visitor are not to deliberately abuse the system. They would frown on that, and this might affect your brothers future applications to marry his wife.

Legally she is not entitled to use NHS facilities because she is a Philippines citizen. Of course, NHS hospitals will help you, but I am sure nurses will tell you this cause alot of paperwork that is a pain in the ass. Paperwork with a lot of explaining to do.

She will have to have the baby there. It costs me 600 pounds in a private hospital. Trust me, you don't want her in a public.


Currently my lady and my baby are in the Philippines, and I have to wait till I get application/money ready. If he really loves this lady, he will stay committed to her and the child. I hope the complications do not put him off, because of his one night of passion, because you have to deal with consequences.

Filipinos here will advise you about decent hospitals.

[Tawi2]

Its the church John,they dont exactly condone family planning,more they encourage family planting,they are going to come unstuck soon with the population of pinas set to double within 30 years :rolleyes:

[darren-b]

Oh also, he wasn't planning on marrying her just yet, they haven't know each other that long, and how long does it take to get a visa?

That may be a problem then. The only way she can come to live here permanently is for them to apply for a fiancee visa and get married in the UK within 6 months, or if they get married before she applies for a visa and comes here.

[georges1986]

so does this mean she cant have the baby here? what about if we paid for her to have the baby private here? surely there must have been foregin people come hear and have babies before? do you know what paper work they have to do? we just thought it would be better for her to have the baby here rather than trying to get the baby a passport once he/she is born?

[johncar54]

Its the church John,they dont exactly condone family planning,........... :


I know, but sex outside marriage is also a sin, so too is sex with a spouse who is divorced. But if you are gonna have sex then using a condom is probably the lesser of the two, and it's a whole lot better not to have illegitimate children

I am always surprised that 'the RC church' continue with the 'have as many babies as you can' philosophy, which is not a law of God but of man (the church). Which was probably implemented to increase the number of Catholics in the world. Rather like the Mormon Church, which used to permit and encourage boga my, in order to increase their number. They subsequently changed the rule and now bigamy is not permitted.

[darren-b]

so does this mean she cant have the baby here? what about if we paid for her to have the baby private here? surely there must have been foregin people come hear and have babies before? do you know what paper work they have to do? we just thought it would be better for her to have the baby here rather than trying to get the baby a passport once he/she is born?

Your first problem is actually getting her here. If they aren't going to get married her own real way of spending any time in the UK is on a visitor visa. Assuming she was granted a visitor visa (which isn't guaranteed) the maximum time she can spend in the UK is 6 months - before the 6 months is up she should leave the UK. If she is in the UK on a visitor visa you could pay for her to have the baby privately, though it won't be cheap.

[GaryFifer]

so does this mean she cant have the baby here? what about if we paid for her to have the baby private here? surely there must have been foregin people come hear and have babies before? do you know what paper work they have to do? we just thought it would be better for her to have the baby here rather than trying to get the baby a passport once he/she is born?

No you would have to pay twice. Plane ticket and pay for private treatment. I wanted to do that, but it extremely expensive. In the current situation with Swine Flu in the UK, would you trust your brother lady on a plane and then hospital.

Yeah foreign people come here to have babies. But they should not use UK services which they have not paid for. Or you would have every foreign person jumping on plane using our hospitals, that would not be fair on UK people would it? You would not want own brother to not get treatment because a foreigner take up the bed? That is why we have immigration asking people questions at the airport.

Where is your brothers gf? Can you tell us more ?

[georges1986]

she is in the phillipines not too sure on the city, he did tell me but i cant remember the name?? she dosen't have very much family support and i just couldn't bare to think of her having to do this alone :( i completly understand what you are saying and i think you are right about about the immigrants, im sure there are very good hospitals out there but we would just feel so much safer with both mother and child being here. If we had too we would pay to go private but if it's his child would she not be intiled to have the baby on the nhs?

[Tawi2]

Its called NHS Tourism george,I think they have clamped down on it as taxpayers in the UK were paying for foreigners medical treatment,she wouldnt be allowed to have the child at the NHS/Taxpayers expense,how long has your brother actually known this lady?:Erm:

[georges1986]

about 3-4 months, if she went private would that be ok? and would the baby be allowed to stay do you know?

[GaryFifer]

Simple fact if you are not from the UK, you pay.

I am sure this would affect all your family having to get a plane ticket for this girl, and paying for private treatment. So the family all need to have a talk about what you plan to do.

Okay lad so go get more information from your brother. Why isn't he writing this? I commend you as his brother asking all the questions:) but can't he ask them? He knows what happened.



If your brother wants more information, he can also contact the British Consulate for information on this. They help me in times of need. Consulate provides advice for UK in the Philippines, but also advice about the country, and you might want to ask questions about the pregnancy. Email them they usually reply quick.

http://ukinthephilippines.fco.gov.uk/en/

[johncar54]

Its called NHS Tourism george,I think they have clamped down on it as taxpayers in the UK were paying for foreigners medical treatment,she wouldnt be allowed to have the child at the NHS/Taxpayers expense,how long has your brother actually known this lady?:Erm:

The Spanish medical Service recently started complaining about foreigners (Brits in particular) abusing the health system in Spain with ' Health Tourism'

[georges1986]

im actually his sister, he is at work and i just feel sorry for him he has so many questions bussing round his head i thought i might try and see if there was anyone else who has been in a similar situation.

[KeithD]

im actually his sister, he is at work and i just feel sorry for him he has so many questions bussing round his head i thought i might try and see if there was anyone else who has been in a similar situation.

Trying to get the girl here to have the baby when he is not even sure it is his, nor does he want to marry yet would basically be screwing the immigration system.

It is irrelevant if she has the baby in the Phil, and would probably get better care there. If it is his, then getting British citizenship in the future is not a problem.

As for if it's not his, and putting his name on the birth certificate, don't even go there. :doh The birth certificate is for the real parents, not adoption.

[georges1986]

He would never intentionally go against the law but obviously he is worried about he's girlfriend and their baby. like i said we are happy to go private and pay for the birth, they have not been together long so maybe in time they would get married but at the moment they are more focused on the baby.

[KeithD]

....they have not been together long .....
I bet that statement sets off alarm bells with a few on here.

[triple5]

Ding-a-ling. Why not just wait till the baby is born, get a DNA test done, then take things from there. Have the baby in the Phils and if it's all good get married there and apply for a spouse visa. Jobs a goodun.

What's with all the rushing??

[GaryFifer]

He would never intentionally go against the law but obviously he is worried about he's girlfriend and their baby. like i said we are happy to go private and pay for the birth, they have not been together long so maybe in time they would get married but at the moment they are more focused on the baby.

Ok sorry I called you he :) Here are your choices

1 Get her over as soon as possible if that is your decision. But remember she is 3-4 months. So you only get 6 month visitor visa, for her that will come with complications. She might be nervous travelling being in a new country, and being in strange place.

2 Leave her in the Philippines, and find some nice private hospital. And get some picture of your baby. She will be with her family, and will feel comfortable in her surroundings that she knows.

If you wish to help your brother you can email the consulate with your questions. They will help you with advice on the health care there.
Also, tell your brothers lady to post you the receipt/bill to prove how much everything cost. Then you not be so worried. Ask for scan pictures too.

[September]

Hello, im new on here and really need some advice.

My brothers girlfriend is pregnant and currently lives in the phillipines, does anyone know if she can come here to have the baby? he isn't 100% sure the child is his but is quite happy to sign the birth certificate and bring the child up as his here in the uk. Does anyone know if this is possible, do they do a blood test to prove who the father is before the baby goes home?

Please please help us.

Thank you georgina x

Yap, we have DNA test in the Philippines, St LUke's hospital is the only one who does the DNA test in Philippines, to know if your brother is the real father:)

Oh btw, it cost 45k pesos or roughly 400 pounds if your brother does not mind to spend that lots of money eh

[joebloggs]

at worse if she applies for a Visit Visa. the very fact she is / will be near the end of her pregnancy term is enough reason for the immigration officer at the port of entry to say no. The issue of a VV does not confer automatic right of entry to the UK. No matter what you say or how much you have in the bank if there is no documentation to prove you are booked into a private clinic / hospital etc, with named Dr. / midwife then you can forget it. There is a presumption that you will attempt or actually use the NHS. NHS medical treatment tourists are a common event. They are treated with contempt, with that in mind she will be going back to where she came from, Worse still they could hit out with the VV was obtained using false information and she will not see the UK for ten years on a mandatory ban for deception. This is an extreme scenario but has happened.

[joebloggs]

Yap, we have DNA test in the Philippines, St LUke's hospital is the only one who does the DNA test in Philippines, to know if your brother is the real father:)

Oh btw, it cost 45k pesos or roughly 400 pounds if your brother does not mind to spend that lots of money eh

if your not married and are applying for a settlement visa or anything looks suspicious the embassy could ask you for a DNA test to be taken..

[GaryFifer]

at worse if she applies for a Visit Visa. the very fact she is / will be near the end of her pregnancy term is enough reason for the immigration officer at the port of entry to say no. The issue of a VV does not confer automatic right of entry to the UK. No matter what you say or how much you have in the bank if there is no documentation to prove you are booked into a private clinic / hospital etc, with named Dr. / midwife then you can forget it. There is a presumption that you will attempt or actually use the NHS. NHS medical treatment tourists are a common event. They are treated with contempt, with that in mind she will be going back to where she came from, Worse still they could hit out with the VV was obtained using false information and she will not see the UK for ten years on a mandatory ban for deception. This is an extreme scenario but has happened.

Thanks Joe. I faced the situation, but I just stuck to the consulate advice, because you cannot rush around when baby is coming, because you think Philippines hospitals are horrible. But that is the mindset you feel at the time. I know I felt Jessica might be better here.But who am I to question Philippines doctors,nurses :) They did a fine job, and my little boy is safe and healthy, that's all that matters :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[georges1986]

thank you all for you information. I will pass it on to my brother, hopefully i will talk him round to her having the baby there. i'l keep you updated!:)

[Arthur Little]

thank you all for you information. I will pass it on to my brother, hopefully i will talk him round to her having the baby there. i'l keep you updated!:)

:Hellooo: Georgina ... and Welcome. I commend you for the efforts you're making on your brother's behalf. Sadly, it's a difficult situation he's found himself in, and I can only hope he goes along with the sensible advice imparted by my fellow forumers. We all wish his girlfriend well with her pregnancy.

[JimOttley]

Trying to get the girl here to have the baby when he is not even sure it is his, nor does he want to marry yet would basically be screwing the immigration system.

It is irrelevant if she has the baby in the Phil, and would probably get better care there. If it is his, then getting British citizenship in the future is not a problem.

As for if it's not his, and putting his name on the birth certificate, don't even go there. :doh The birth certificate is for the real parents, not adoption.

Exactly, the health care system in the Phils is good, cheaper than here as they would have to pay in the UK as well and if the child is his, then they will get British citizenship anyway due to the change in the rules back in July 2006.

As for point two - putting the name on the Birth Certificate, I did this for my son knowing the child was not mine, it was a foolish gallant gesture that nearly ruined my chances of getting my daughter's citizenship sorted out.

The British embassy in Manila will require a DNA test or alternatively so much documentation that the brother will have a nightmare trying to prove that the child is his.

When I applied for Janna's birth registration and passport last December, I was asked for my son James' birth certificate as well as they check lots of ways to see if the mother is still married elsewhere.

Anyway at that point I wrote up a full truthful explanation of what I done and why! Eight months later we got Janna's citizenship and passport so if the child is his they will get citizenship!

The main benefit is the open right to international travel for the child without the need to apply for Visa's right left and centre. For my daughter whatever happens to me she will be free to travel anywhere in Europe when she grows up and that is really important to me.


Jim

[JimOttley]

Yap, we have DNA test in the Philippines, St LUke's hospital is the only one who does the DNA test in Philippines, to know if your brother is the real father:)

Oh btw, it cost 45k pesos or roughly 400 pounds if your brother does not mind to spend that lots of money eh

Not quite accurate September, UP also do DNA tests for 60k peso which at today's exchange rate is 800 pounds and for the record 45k peso is 600 pounds :D

We tried Makati Med (no reagents), phoned St Lukes, yes two weeks time, I had two days left in the country :)

We called UP and they said yes they could do it the day before I left, the British Embassy also respect their results, very professional procedure took photos of all of us at every stage of taking the blood samples, the test was three way, Ana, Janna and me. Expensive but good and they will give you multiple copies of the results which are valid for all legal purposes in the Phils.

Still never opened my copy, we opened Ana's for the British Embassy, I didn't need to open it to be honest as my wee lassie was the spitting image of my sister :D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3685228879_65bdfc5fa7.jpg

UP details are

Dr Maria Corazon S. De Ungria
DNA Analysis Laboratory
Natural Sciences Research Institute (Miranda Hall)
Velasquez cor Quirino St.
University of the Philippines Diliman
1101 Quezon City

Lab phone number
+63 24341574

Can I post the mobile number of Dr Corazon boss? I have it.


Jim

[scott&ligaya]

my advice for what it is worth, have the baby in the Phils, top care is available at very reasonable cost. have your brother go over once or twice during pregnancy and go for the birth. If she is not from one of the major cities move her there two months before birth (small apartment in reasonable district of Manila for around £250/£300 per month can be done). Do the paternity test after birth only if he feels insure. Trying to bring her to UK is just not viable

[JimOttley]

my advice for what it is worth, have the baby in the Phils, top care is available at very reasonable cost. have your brother go over once or twice during pregnancy and go for the birth. If she is not from one of the major cities move her there two months before birth (small apartment in reasonable district of Manila for around £250/£300 per month can be done). Do the paternity test after birth only if he feels insure. Trying to bring her to UK is just not viable

I agree in general but :omg: £250-£300 you can get a nice small condo for £130 a month + £13 association fees :D only problem is you have to pay a year up front.


Jim

[scott&ligaya]

Hi Jim, yes agreed but you can look at the holiday let market and do a long stay deal instead of by the week, I looked at this when we were planning for Ligaya to have Joshua and found a nice place near the off Roxas and De Pillar(near manila doctors hospital where she was planned to go.

[Sis Suze]

I hate to pee on anyone's bonfire but to register a child as yours when it isn't....or even if you suspect it isn't, is illegal. Unless the man is the husband in which case there is some quirk in English Law which says that if the man and woman are married - BEFORE the pregnancy - occurred, its legal for the man to assume that he is the father and register it as such!! Hmmm! Anyway, the fact is, nobody will get any special privileges with regard to visas etc whoever the father is.
I wish them all good luck
xxxx

[johncar54]

We have a friend here in Spain who got pregnant when she visited Phil for a holiday. On her return her English husband was prepared to accept the baby as his and the baby has a British passport. Of course if it ever came to light he has committed perjury and I guess the child would loose the passport.

Sis Suze, as I said previously, I agree with you

[Sis Suze]

Also, if there are criminal proceedings arising from it, it would be unlikely and future visas would be considered.

[joebloggs]

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/settlement/children#18165823

if he thinks he's the father and then the DNA test shows he's not..

Child not related to claimed father
The ECO must handle such cases with sensitivity as it may not be obvious whether the husband or other family members know of the true relationship and there may be serious repercussions for the wife and child if the information is disclosed (see illegitimacy below).

There may be any number of reasons why a claimed father may not be a child's natural father including the death of the first husband, rape or adultery.

Illegitimacy
Where DNA evidence indicates that a child may be illegitimate, the ECO should:

* try to establish the truth of the family circumstances by interviewing the child's mother as discreetly and sensitively as possible. Referring the case to the UK Border Agency to interview the sponsor should be avoided.

If no information can be elicited from the mother, the best way forward may be to seek information from the sponsor's representatives (depending on whether they are known to the ECO to be willing to respect the confidence of all parties).

If it appears that an illegitimate child has been brought up as a child of the family, it will normally be appropriate to admit the child under paragraph 297(i)(f). The fact that the sponsor may not be aware that the child is not his natural child should not preclude entry clearance.

The ECO should not routinely disclose information about the DNA report to the sponsor or other family members in cases involving the illegitimate children. However, under the Data Protection Act applicants and sponsors have a right to see personal information about themselves, which we may hold.

[proud2bepinay]

Just thought of sharing this info I found in wiki about British citizenship by birth in the United Kingdom. Hope this helps....

Under the law in effect from 1 January 1983, a child born in the UK to a parent who is a British citizen or 'settled' in the UK is automatically a British citizen by birth.

Only one parent needs to meet this requirement, either the father or the mother.
"Settled" status in this context usually means the parent is resident in the United Kingdom and has the right of abode, holds Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR), or is the citizen of an EU/EEA country and has permanent residence. Irish citizens in the UK are also deemed to be settled for this purpose.
Special rules exist for cases where a parent of a child is a citizen of a European Union or European Economic Area member state, or Switzerland. The law in this respect was changed on 2 October 2000 and again on 30 April 2006. See below for details.
For children born before 1 July 2006, if only the father meets this requirement, the parents must be married. Marriage subsequent to the birth is normally enough to confer British citizenship from that point.
Where the father is not married to the mother, the Home Office will usually register the child as British provided an application is made and the child would have been British otherwise. The child must be aged under 18 on the date of application.
Where a parent subsequently acquires British citizenship or "settled" status, the child can be registered as British provided he or she is still aged under 18.
If the child lives in the UK until age 10 there is a lifetime entitlement to register as a British citizen. The immigration status of the child and his/her parents is irrelevant.
Special provisions may apply for the child to acquire British citizenship if a parent is a British Overseas citizen or British subject, or if the child is stateless.
Before 1983, birth in the UK was sufficient in itself to confer British nationality irrespective of the status of parents, with an exception only for children of diplomats and enemy aliens. This exception did not apply to most visiting forces, so, in general, children born in the UK before 1983 to visiting military personnel (eg US forces stationed in the UK) are British citizens by birth.

[JimOttley]

This is complete abuse of our NHS, that we as tax payers are paying through the nose for.. How dare your brother expect us to pick up the tab for someone , who is not sure is even pregnant with his child... It could come out any colour !!!!!! and then he would be really fed up..... This is the sort of story that gets true migrants and people who play by the rules regarding visas and immigration really angry.......

Read the posts before yours, most of them are making it clear that it would not work anyway as there are serious practical problems with the idea.

It is a pretty natural thing for the first thought of a young lad (or older lad) with a pregnant girlfriend abroad in a third world country, for that thought to be suspicion of the foreign healthcare system.

The baby will be British anyway that is a simple FACT! all they need is to get married or to get a DNA test, the Embassy may insist on a DNA test even if they get married but if it comes back positive the kid is BRITISH doesn't matter what colour the child is.

And just today I've been asked for help in an almost identical case to advise a young 24 year old Scottish lad who is working over there whose partner is pregnant in spite of being on the pill, one of their first concerns was making sure the baby got British Citizenship and they had the same idea, it is a pretty natural reaction if you come from the UK.

Lastly what "colour" would you expect the baby to be in order to be British?


Jim

[joebloggs]

Lastly what "colour" would you expect the baby to be in order to be British?


Jim

like this of course :D
http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/4855731/view/1/producttypecolor/1/type/png/width/280/height/280

[JimOttley]

:D yeah that's the general impression :D

[don1]

In the Filipino culture sex before marriage is a definate no no....If this girl has been sleeping with your friend when he only visited her, you can be pretty sure hes not the only man in her bed......Chances are pretty slim of him being the father, and even slimmer of them staying together once she has British Citizenship

[somebody]

In the Filipino culture sex before marriage is a definate no no....If this girl has been sleeping with your friend when he only visited her, you can be pretty sure hes not the only man in her bed......Chances are pretty slim of him being the father, and even slimmer of them staying together once she has British Citizenship

Are you sure I can think of plenty of examples of both non married phill couples and unmarried mums in Phill from my limited Knowledge.

Im sure there are quite a few couples on here who have indulged in premartial sex and the familes were to a degree aware

The biggest pattern is those married in shotgun weddings and no one (mnay active church goers) seems to be to shocked from what i see..

[Tawi2]

I also did a double-take when I read that post Somebody,totally clashes with my own experiences,pre-marital sex is rife in Pinas,look at the prevalence of taxi-hotels springing up everywhere,who honestly uses them for 2 or 3 hours sleep :Erm:Maybe its kept subdued because of the church and the mass of contradictory ethics but its far,far,far from uncommon:Erm:I think people visit a country or even live there but view it from totally contradictory perspectives.

[JimOttley]

Are you sure I can think of plenty of examples of both non married phill couples and unmarried mums in Phill from my limited Knowledge.

Im sure there are quite a few couples on here who have indulged in premartial sex and the familes were to a degree aware

The biggest pattern is those married in shotgun weddings and no one (mnay active church goers) seems to be to shocked from what i see..

I know personally of three shotgun marriages in the last 16 months all young couples who had been courting for at least 3 or 4 years each.

Plus my partner and I are still not married yet and we have two kids already :D

Jim