String her up !

[Dedworth]

The daughter of a leading British nuclear health physicist faces a mandatory death sentence in Malaysia for drugs trafficking after a police raid on a holiday resort.

Shivaun Patra Orton from Bangor, Wales, already faces life imprisonment on cannabis, amphetamine and ecstasy charges after a raid on a resort on the east coast of Peninsular Malaysia.

But the mother-of-two, whose father worked at the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment Aldermaston, could also face death if she is implicated in a haul of 225g of heroin found nearby.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339152/Shivaun-Patra-Orton-faces-death-penalty-heroin-haul-Malaysia.html#ixzz18J17uTkq

The absolute stupidity of these people never ceases to amaze me. I don't know if it's changed but they used to give you leaflets on the plane about the mandatory Death Penalty, you drive along and see billboards with "Dada is Death" & pictures of noose's etc etc

Their country, their rules and I applaud them for it :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bornatbirth]

nothing funny about killing a person :NoNo:

[Dedworth]

nothing funny about killing a person :NoNo:

You're not amused when a drug crazed mugger kills an OAP for a few quid ?

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/face_of_ora_s_mugger_1_2829724

[JimOttley]

You're not amused when a drug crazed mugger kills an OAP for a few quid ?

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/face_of_ora_s_mugger_1_2829724

You find that amusing?

[KeithD]

You're not amused when a drug crazed mugger kills an OAP for a few quid ?

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/face_of_ora_s_mugger_1_2829724
More people are murdered by non-druggies.

[Dedworth]

More people are murdered by non-druggies.

Murder victims aside 75% of Heroin and Crack Cocaine users commit crime to fund their habits, two thirds of people arrested test positive for illegal drugs.

[KeithD]

...and having spent years living around many druggies they'd still commit crime if they weren't on drugs, most of them spent more on alcohol and ciggies than drugs.

[Dedworth]

...and having spent years living around many druggies they'd still commit crime if they weren't on drugs, most of them spent more on alcohol and ciggies than drugs.

I don't know if that is born out by official statistics. My view is that after 40 years or so of liberal elite imposed soft sentencing and giving the criminal greater rights than the victim its time to use the stick rather than the limpwristed carrot. Execute the dealers - that would send out the message that it's not a smart career path to follow, availability of drugs would decrease with their price increasing. All those guilty of committing crimes related to drug addiction are then given custodial sentences with compulsory cold turkey.

[johncar54]

I believe countries with severe, even draconian, sentences for breaking the law have relatively little crime.

In my opinion that is not a coincidence.

[Arthur Little]

I believe countries with severe, even draconian, sentences for breaking the law have relatively little crime.

In my opinion that is not a coincidence.

:iagree: ... Malaysia & Singapore being just two examples.

[Englishman2010]

I have to admit I never feel threatened when I'm in Singapore, I don't know what the official crime stats are, but I'd guess they are relatively low.

Anyone who either uses drugs there or imports/exports drugs via Singapore has got to be completely insane knowing how severe the penalties are. Even if they escape the gallows, a life sentence in Changi doesn't sound like it's anything like the Butlin's Prisons we have here

[Dedworth]

a life sentence in Changi doesn't sound like it's anything like the Butlin's Prisons we have here

Thats why I maintain the Govt should bin H M Prison Service, G4S, Kalyx etc and contract it all out to the Singapore Prison Service complete with Ghurka guards :)

[Englishman2010]

I'm not against harsher sentencing or even capital punishment. However, we must ensure that everyone receives a fair trial and eliminate any miscarriages of justice. It is far more complex than just saying, you look guilty, therefore you are, so we will lock you up and throw away the key. Mitigating circumstances such as an offenders mental state at the time the crime was commited must also be taken into acount. I have a relative who is a Paranoid Schizophrenic, thankfully they have never commited any crimes, but if they had commited a crime during one of their 'turns' it would be unfair to class them in the same category as a sound minded criminal. I don't believe the Singaporean example makes any allowances for state of mind, and I'm sure there must be some innocent people who have swung there?

[johncar54]

Englishman, well if you are correct, maybe the families there take more responsibility and ensure their loved one don't commit crime.

The fair trial comment; of course always applies in UK, where defendants probably get a better crack of the whip that n the victims. Certainly many people who have committed crimes walk free because the ludicrous jury system.

[Dedworth]

There have always been miscarriages of justice and always will but I don't really see why that should stop us bringing back capital punishment. Obviously an offenders mental state should be taken into account. We've now had three or four decades of soft sentencing and it just doesn't work, like you say there's no fear of crime in Singapore but there most certainly is a fear of the punishments. Time to bring back the stick and I don't just mean that metaphorically - jimeve's substation vandals on the other thread would stick to playing computer games if they knew vandalism was going get them a serious thrashing :xxaction-smiley-047

[Englishman2010]

I agree with what you are saying Dedworth. However miscarriages of Justice are fine while they are happening to someone you don't know or care about....it's a different story if you or a loved one is the victim of a miscarriage.

The deterrent factor does work to an extent, but Changi Prison is still full, so it cant be a complete deterrent.

[johncar54]

According to the internet Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. The prison population may reflect a sentencing policy where people convicted of relatively minor offences are sent to prison. If that is so then the prison population cannot really be compared with the UK where every effort is made not to send people to prison, or to release them ASAP.

As for the miscarriages of justice you quote. Where do you get your figures which you rely upon ? The fact that people get acquitted on appeal does not necessarily mean they were wrongly convicted.

[Englishman2010]

As for the miscarriages of justice you quote. Where do you get your figures which you rely upon ? The fact that people get acquitted on appeal does not necessarily mean they were wrongly convicted.


:Erm: Where have I quoted figures John? I would expect an ex Policeman to say that the people they have charged are the correct people, but as we all know even the great British Police force make mistakes, and believe it or not some Policemen have commited crimes too

[johncar54]

Englishman I am disappointed that you have chosen to attack me rather than present information which supports your assertion. I ask again, where have you obtained the facts which you rely on ?

Maybe unlike you, I have had 30 years personal experience of people standing trial.

My opinions are based what I personally know not what I suspect or have understood from often distorted media reports, which often is all the 'general public' have to rely on.

One example of a person who distorted fact to sell his books, was the writer Ludervick Kennedy. He wrote several books in which he 'proved' there were miscarriages of justice. The only problem was that he often based his argument on facts which had deliberately been distorted, thus the conclusion he came to were serious flawed. He is not alone in this failing. Anyone reading such publications probably believe them but of course have no way of knowing they are false.

[Englishman2010]

John I have not attacked you, and before you start making accusations I suggest you look at the tone of your initial response. Pot - kettle - black:rolleyes:

On the basis that there are corrupt Police Officers found guilty of offences on a regular basis, I would suggest that any crime they have investigated should be re-examined as there is a potential case for evidence being obtained falsely or under duress.

I am a supporter of our Police, it is one of the best forces in the world, but it is still far from perfect and mistakes will always happen, if you really want me to find examples of miscarriages of justice I can spend the evening researching it on the internet, and by the way I have spent 25 years studying Civil and Contract law, but do have an understanding of criminal law, and have some legal qualifications.

[johncar54]

Englishman, Introducing allegations about police officers had nothing to do with your original proposition that there are miscarriages of justice. Except maybe you are mentioning cases where you believe the convictions were justified. As that is a generalisation I cannot agree or disagree.

I take note of your experience and I would not venture, based on my experience of criminal law which is so different, to comment on your area or expertise.

I don't understand your comment " I suggest you look at the tone of your initial response. Pot - kettle - black" What I said was, "I believe countries with severe, even draconian, sentences for breaking the law have relatively little crime".

In my opinion that is not a coincidence.

[RickyR]

Anyone, handbags away. The justice system has changed a lot in recent years, and nothing that the police force can control. It comes down to the hundreds of laws made by our previous government, although i don't see the present one changing it much.
The system in Singapore works, and is excellent, but you do see miscarriages of justice there and the system is far from perfect.
I would personally prefer a strciter system.

[stevewool]

wow this what makes life so boring , we all know there are wrongs and rights but like someone said the other day , this forum seems to be getting more and more heavy , come on lads and lasses its xmas and the world is a hard place to be in , smile and think nice things i do and i get by, most proberly if we all think off our own families and friends first we shall survive, sod the rest , but who am i to say this, jus a friend who has a dream

[joebloggs]

The justice system has changed a lot in recent years, and nothing that the police force can control. It comes down to the hundreds of laws made by our previous government, although i don't see the present one changing it much.


its not the govs fault , its time for the human rights act which these :censored: hide behind should be scrapped.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12021243

But two senior immigration judges, sitting in Manchester, rejected the appeal after lawyers said that human rights laws permitted Ibrahim to remain in the country on the grounds of his right to life and to family life.

Mr Cameron said the European Convention on Human Rights said nothing about deportation, and that legal interpretations by judges and lawyers sometimes "fly in the face of common sense".

and where is the human rights act when you want to being your wife to the UK ?? wheres our right to life and to family life.

[Dedworth]

its not the govs fault , its time for the human rights act which these :censored: hide behind should be scrapped.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12021243

But two senior immigration judges, sitting in Manchester, rejected the appeal after lawyers said that human rights laws permitted Ibrahim to remain in the country on the grounds of his right to life and to family life.

Mr Cameron said the European Convention on Human Rights said nothing about deportation, and that legal interpretations by judges and lawyers sometimes "fly in the face of common sense".

and where is the human rights act when you want to being your wife to the UK ?? wheres our right to life and to family life.

A sickening case - this germ is a killer and career criminal who should have been shipped out years ago. I hope decency and common sense prevail and the UKBA win the appeal. The two pathetically out of touch with reality judges in Manchester should be summarily dismissed :angry:

[joebloggs]

:angry:

Senior Immigration Judge Deborah Taylor refused permission for Mr Houston to address the hearing, but accepted his letter.

now where was the fathers rights?, when he was refused permission to address the hearing, its :icon_lol: when those brought before the courts can have 'character witnesses' state what decent people they are, yet not mention their previous criminal record, yet the victims family don't have the same rights :doh

In 2006 - three years after the fatal crash - he was again convicted of driving whilst disqualified and without insurance.

In 2009 he was also convicted of harassment, damage to property and theft, the tribunal heard.

[johncar54]

Don't be too hard on the judges. I bet that the final outcome of this is that he will be allowed to stay in UK.

(that is not what I would want but just wait and see)

[alanmf1]

its not the govs fault , its time for the human rights act which these :censored: hide behind should be scrapped.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12021243

But two senior immigration judges, sitting in Manchester, rejected the appeal after lawyers said that human rights laws permitted Ibrahim to remain in the country on the grounds of his right to life and to family life.

Mr Cameron said the European Convention on Human Rights said nothing about deportation, and that legal interpretations by judges and lawyers sometimes "fly in the face of common sense".

and where is the human rights act when you want to being your wife to the UK ?? wheres our right to life and to family life.

Very well said joebloggs:xxgrinning--00xx3:

No backbone & i fear "they" are scared of the backlash.......:angry:

[joebloggs]

Don't be too hard on the judges. I bet that the final outcome of this is that he will be allowed to stay in UK.

(that is not what I would want but just wait and see)

john you have to be hard on them, its ridiculous that they would even think of letting him stay in the UK, when someone on here applies for a visa and its refused, and you mention human rights, they will all most certainly mention that there is nothing stopping you going living in the phils :angry: this guy has no respect for the law, and its the law that's protecting him.:angry:

[johncar54]

and where is the human rights act when you want to being your wife to the UK ?? where's our right to life and to family life.

I believe most of the EU have signed the Decree that in effect to keep a family apart is illegal. (UK has not signed). Spain has signed and thus we have an absolute right to bring our spouse here.

I suggest that all you guys based in UK who have a say get in touch with your MP and ask him/her what the devil they are doing about the Decree.

But I know that whilst many will agree with that, at least in principle, practically no one will lift a finger, except to keep on ranting here to us who have not power to change anything.

Happy Christmas and New Year !!!

[johncar54]

john you have to be hard on them, its ridiculous that they would even think of letting him stay in the UK, when someone on here applies for a visa and its refused, and you mention human rights, they will all most certainly mention that there is nothing stopping you going living in the phils :angry: this guy has no respect for the law, and its the law that's protecting him.:angry:

But Joe, you and I know, as I said above. no one will actually do anything to change it. They just rant here !!!! The UK like most of Europe is controlled by Brussels.

The judges are interpreting the law as it is, they cannot change it, although I would think that they are just as P.....d off with it as anyone else. If they were to decide on what they think, rather that on the law as it stands, then it would be overturned on appeal and in that case they might get the sack

[Dedworth]

and where is the human rights act when you want to being your wife to the UK ?? where's our right to life and to family life.

I believe most of the EU have signed the Decree that in effect to keep a family apart is illegal. (UK has not signed). Spain has signed and thus we have an absolute right to bring our spouse here.

I suggest that all you guys based in UK who have a say get in touch with your MP and ask him/her what the devil they are doing about the Decree.

But I know that whilst many will agree, at least in principle, with that practically no one will lift a finger, except to keep on ranting here to us who have not power to change anything.

Happy Christmas and New Yera !!!

I for one often write to my MP (Home Secretary) and yesterday I had a letter back from her in response to mine complaining about crims and illegals not being deported. Enclosed was a copy of a letter to her from the Minister for Immigration Damian Green. I will just quote one of Mr Green's paragraphs here :-

"It is Government policy that those who are not here legally should leave the UK. We would prefer that such persons did so voluntarily, but where they fail or refuse to do so voluntarily, they may be detained for removal"

Does anyone else reach for the sickbag when they read the bits I've highlighted ?

[joebloggs]

But Joe, you and I know, as I said above. no one will actually do anything to change it.


cameron
June 2006 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5114102.stm
Aug 2007 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560975/David-Cameron-Scrap-the-Human-Rights-Act.html
may 2010 :icon_lol: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1279544/Nick-Clegg-champions-Human-Rights-Act-David-Cameron-pledged-scrap.html
dec 2010 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339643/Camerons-fury-killer-deported-Human-Rights-Act.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

looks like when the PM gives up, what chance have any of us

[Arthur Little]

Hmm ... merely supposition ... but I wonder if, :rolleyes: - in the event of nothing short of a miracle - the law as it stands were to be altered in line with that currently applicable to the rest of the EU ... whether those who have already brought their legally-wedded spouses to the UK would be eligible for a proportionate refund of visa fees disbursed???

[johncar54]

Hmm ... merely supposition ... but I wonder if, :rolleyes: - in the event of nothing short of a miracle - the law as it stands were to be altered in line with that currently applicable to the rest of the EU ... whether those who have already brought their legally-wedded spouses to the UK would be eligible for a proportionate refund of visa fees disbursed???

Well Arthur it's b een rain heavily all day on the Costa del Sol, I needed a good laugh, thanks !!!!!

[Arthur Little]

Well Arthur it's b een rain heavily all day on the Costa del Sol, I needed a good laugh, thanks !!!!!

:cwm24: ... well, John ... if it's :raining: on the Costa del :sunshine: ... maybe ... just maybe there IS a [slim] chance after all, then ...:)

[Arthur Little]

... although I imagine :rolleyes: we're more likely to see blue snow, first!

[gWaPito]

Good debate, an enjoyable read.

[KeithD]

I love having a mass debate :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bornatbirth]

how about a xmas get together where we all can have a mass debate together :D

[Doc Alan]

how about a xmas get together where we all can have a mass debate together :D
Great idea ! I know someone who could do the catering - he's a master baker :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Englishman2010]

Great idea ! I know someone who could do the catering - he's a master baker :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Keep away from the iced buns:icon_lol:

[KeithD]

Keep away from the iced buns:icon_lol:

I'd be more worried about the Sticky Pudding :omg:

[bornatbirth]

I'd be more worried about the Sticky Pudding :omg:

and the spotted dick :icon_lol:

[Dedworth]

No messing about from the Malaysian equivalent of the CPS - she's facing Capital Charges of Drug Trafficking

In prison robes and handcuffs, the British wife facing the gallows for heroin haul

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339152/British-nuclear-physicists-daughter-Shivaun-Orton-faces-death-heroin-haul-Malaysia.html#ixzz18wwhBb7O

[Dedworth]

Latest on this ghastly woman

'We'll spend every penny to save my sister from hangman': Drugs charge British mother is victim of Malaysian husband, say family

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343297/British-mother-Shivaun-Orton-facing-drug-charge-death-panalty-victim-Malaysian-husband.html#ixzz19tP5M6mw

[Ako Si Jamie]

Sounds to me she's just the husband's puppet. He installs the fear of God into her by abusing her, saps all her strength so she can't leave him and then gets her hooked on drugs.

I think she knows what she's doing but was more terrified of him than the consequences of getting caught dealing drugs, therefore she couldn't muster the strength to escape his grasp. The husband is the instigator and for that, he should swing and she shouldn't!

[Tawi2]

Sounds a little like their backpackers hostel was a little like drugs'R'us :Erm: Two sides to every coin,she says...she says....she says,yup the sister is bound to be a little bias but smack heads are always looking to make a quick buck,play with fire dont be surprised if you get burnt:rolleyes:The prison uniform suits her,nice colour,Guantanamo bay orange.