9pm BBC2 SUNDAY - Toughest place to be a bus driver - Manila

[joebloggs]

:cwm24:
London bus driver Josh West heads to Manila, the world's most densely populated city, where, with his host Rogelio Castro, he braves the chaos of the streets in a Jeepney.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z08wd/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Bus_Driver/

[les_taxi]

Cheers will record that:)

[Dedworth]

Thanks Joe :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Sim11UK]

Will watch that Joe :)

Here's a couple of Americans having a go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSZZFj85L8

[stevie c]

cheers joe i shall look forward to watching that :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Terpe]

Good info. I'll set the recoder.
I reckon that will be a real interesting watch. Bet it makes us all laugh.

[stevewool]

i will be watching that too, thanks, i would love to ride a motorbike out there but emma says its to dangerous

[Terpe]

..... i would love to ride a motorbike out there but emma says its to dangerous

Outside of the cities and on the open roads it's just heaven. Take time to enjoy the sights the sounds and the smells. Unbeatable :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Englishman2010]

Great, that's on straight after Top Gear, my Sunday viewing is sorted then :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Englishman2010]

just bumping this back to the top of the daily posts to remind you all that it's on BBC2 at 9pm tonight

[stevewool]

tv is set on timmer, i hope it shows the roads i went down:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Terpe]

My recorder is on too :xxgrinning--00xx3:
Top gear and Toughest place to be a bus driver - Manila

Thanks for the head up though:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Sim11UK]

Was reading a bit about it earlier & it sounds as though it's a bit more than just the driving. It deals with overcrowding & poverty, so should be interesting. :)

[Jimbojac]

Great programme, i gave the heads up to a few of my Mates about this on tonight.
Might make a few of them think when the greatest stress that they face on a daily basis is running out of milk!
Nevere been to Tondo but back in December was stuck in traffic as we headed to a friends place near there in Caloocan, Jeez, like hell on earth!! Traffic, pollution, overcrowding and poverty on an epic scale.
Makes ya think eh.......are we all lucky or what!!??

[Sim11UK]

Gotta be programme of the year :xxgrinning--00xx3:...It was brilliant.
Not ashamed to say I had a tear in my eye a couple of times. :)

[Englishman2010]

It was a great program, and a bit of an eye opener for me. I considered myself to be fairly experienced in how Filipino's live day to day, but it made me think I have been fairly protected from how a great number of Pinoys live in the squatter camps. The Pinoys I know are all fairly well educated, have decent jobs and don't have to resort to eating pagpag to survive. Whilst they don't have much by our standards, compared to some they are very well off.
Sadly these TV programmes always play up to the stereotype that all Pinoys are poor and live in slums, so that those who don't know what it is like think that everyone lives like that.
If a foreign TV chanel made a program about a British working family and shot it in the middle of an inner city slum, the rest of the world would also assume the whole of the UK is like that too.
It would be nice to see a bit of balance on these programmes to show how the average middle class Pinoy lives and what the slum dwellers aspire to.
Overall, it was great, and made me want to be back over there now.....although I'll give the pagpag a miss:omg:

[fred]

If a foreign TV chanel made a program about a British working family and shot it in the middle of an inner city slum, the rest of the world would also assume the whole of the UK is like that too.

Englishman.. There are well over 500,000 Squatter families in Metro Manila alone..Obviously this is only an indicator of the general poverty that exists within the city.
I would say the poor reflect a good representation of the general populace as of today.

[Terpe]

Both of us really enjoyed the program. The London bus driver, Josh, was for me, a good choice and gave a good balance for the content.
What a difference between his bus and Rogelio's 'bus' !!
I had only ever heard of pagpag, and didn't really understand or experience the reality.
Overall, 10/10

[imagine]

fascinating, gob smacked, brillient program, i was rooted to my seat,id love to see more like it,and of different areas of philipines :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

[keithAngel]

Didnt manage to see it yet myself but I can relate to the images you mention I often think the guys that dont spend much time are insulated from the every day realities of daily life here especialy in the metropolitan areas just because the poverty is more intense and in your face.

Im sure glad I live the life of hmmm not sure what to compare to theres no middle class in UK terms teachers on 150 quid a month paid 30 piso to the doc in the general hospital yesterday so I guess hes not rich either:NoNo:

[Englishman2010]

Englishman.. There are well over 500,000 Squatter families in Metro Manila alone..Obviously this is only an indicator of the general poverty that exists within the city.
I would say the poor reflect a good representation of the general populace as of today.

I don't doubt that at all Fred, I don't know about any other Brits here, but personally I have never seen that side of Manila as the Pinays I know generally come from slightly better off families living in nice sub divisions and have gone out of their way not to show me that side of the city. Of course, I've seen the way the Badjao's live by the side of the road at Baclaran, but never been into a whole suburb like it. I suppose it's similar to part of British cities in that we know where the really poor people live but we don't go into their areas usually. However, there is a massive gulf between our poor and their poor.

[joebloggs]

Im sure glad I live the life of hmmm not sure what to compare to theres no middle class in UK terms teachers on 150 quid a month paid 30 piso to the doc in the general hospital yesterday so I guess hes not rich either:NoNo:

unless your a consultant i dont think docs get paid much more than that :cwm24:

[Manila_Paul]

Going to download it later but.... that isn't even the toughest driving job in Manila, is it? Bus driver on the ESDA anyone? :yikes:

[purple]

I've seen that program last night and I should say that there is a bit of imbalance with the information and plays a bit more dramatic.

I know life in Phils. can be tough, considering that Maning Rogelio got a much better life back in the countryside but because of false belief that going to condensed place like Manila will make his life better is the same ideas for many filipinos that going abroad will help their lives better.

Those people who tries to live and work hard, I must say that it is surely a difficult one. But at the end of the day it comes to choices. A choice to make a radical change like moving and shifting to another job, choice of career, of having your spouse to help.

My uncle, who is exactly the same as Rogelio's... with three children and a jeepney driver.. not in Manila though (CEBU) made his daughters to university now both teachers and married. The youngest is making his way to grade school. I must say that my uncle is not as ideal husband and father as Rogelio but just a difference on how people can make it through living the hardships in life by coming to choices.

It saddened me actually to see and to have this portrayed to the world that Philippines is the toughest place to live. When in fact behind camera, those people are happy because they are with family and hardships is nothing compare to being away with their love ones.

The "Bahala Na!" mentality of the filipinos are so strong, with luck of information plus the strong ties with catholicism is driving most people to poverty and drags most of the filipino lives to misery compare to british.

[fred]

Going to download it later but.... that isn't even the toughest driving job in Manila, is it? Bus driver on the ESDA anyone? :yikes:

I posted this earlier but for some stupid bad connection reaso it did not show...
Paul.. How are you going to download it?? I player does not work for me here..A proxy server perhaps??

[Manila_Paul]

I posted this earlier but for some stupid bad connection reaso it did not show...
Paul.. How are you going to download it?? I player does not work for me here..A proxy server perhaps??

A torrent site called thebox.bz - not sure if they're allowing members at the moment though? Good site for British shows.

[fred]

Thank you very much Paul.. Just checked the torrent site and there is tons of stuff http://www.kickasstorrents.com/search/thebox-bz/ ... Not sure if I have to be a member or not to download though?? I`ll give it a go.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[fred]

Tried a search ..."Toughest place to be a bus driver - Manila" Nothing found!:NoNo:

[Manila_Paul]

Tried a search ..."Toughest place to be a bus driver - Manila" Nothing found!:NoNo:

It hasn't been uploaded yet. It should be on there by tomorrow.

[Terpe]

Is there any reason why you don't use a UK proxy??
PS don't get technical it's just wasted on me.:D

[Manila_Paul]

Is there any reason why you don't use a UK proxy??
PS don't get technical it's just wasted on me.:D

Well, I've never really looked into proxies as thebox usually has everything I want to see. The only exception is the occasional streaming (live) content and some of the trailers/clips on the official websites and YouTube. It would be good to have a proxy for that. Are there any sites that list reliable free ones? I know about the paysites but that would be pointless for all the stuff I'd watch via them.

[stevewool]

it was viewing for me and emma cuddling in bed while watching it
it did bring tears to my eyes and indeed emma was brought to tears many times , we was poor was her quote but we always had food on our table and i did not know how people lived like that, the world is like that not just the phils, poor parts here too, but work hard they say and you may help yourself, personal its the kids that you have to consider can we afford them and i am afraid many cant , just my opiniun thats all

[fred]

Is there any reason why you don't use a UK proxy??
PS don't get technical it's just wasted on me.:D

Me too terpe.. the ones Ive tried just dont work.
To be honest my connection to just not fast enough for streaming anyway.. These down loads look like the best bet for me.. Worth a try but just depends how many seeds I can get to download from..

[jimeve]

Just looked on you tube, not on there either. Might be later though. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[stevie c]

what as sad sad story it certainly fetched a tear to mine & florsels eye it was very touching to listen too the
young woman with thirteen children i think it is a terrible shame the stance the catholic church take on contraception what a difference free contraception would make too some families :NoNo:

[Jimbojac]

Some comparisms.......{ please remember that many people think that cos you might earn 20- 30 pence an hour then a beer is maybe 5 pence and a Jolibee meal maybe 10pence.......Far from it!
Wages of my Phils friends :
Shop girl- 150-200 pesos a day.
Supermarket check out - 150 pesos a day.
Skilled tradesman { Mindanao} - 300 pesos a day.
Waiter in province - 150 - a day.
* Makes ya wonder eh Folks when sipping that "very cheap" San Mig at 30 pesos a bottle, that is 2 hours wages for the locals! Shocking!
I casually asked my GF a coupla months back as we were eating the normal chicken and rice, "how many times do you eat meat back at home?" Her reply...3 times year!! Christmas, New Years day and her Papas birthday. Makes ya think huh!
* as many of you know the peso is approx 70 to the £1.

[sars_notd_virus]

well for hubby and me, the program doesnt say anything new,I am proud of my fellow pinoy who works hard for a living and lives for his family ..the lifestyle is hard but it is all they know apart from what they see on the billboards..anyway,congratulations to Josh West who braves the chaos of the streets in a jeepney!!:D:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Jimbojac]

what as sad sad story it certainly fetched a tear to mine & florsels eye it was very touching to listen too the
young woman with thirteen children i think it is a terrible shame the stance the catholic church take on contraception what a difference free contraception would make too some families :NoNo:
Couldn't agree more Stevie C!
Shocking the stance that the church takes there.
My GF is a staunch Catholic girl and out of respect to her and her family i do not rant too much but i really despise what that religion is doing to the common people there.

[scott&ligaya]

I have said the same many times on here and elswhere the Pope could cut world poverty at a stroke by saying just three words... condoms are ok.... but then within 20 years they will lose their hold on the populace , keep them poor and dumb and they will have FAITH!!!!. to have that power to save millions from poverty and not use it is CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, just as much as an ethnic cleansing genocide. the programme to its credit did bring the issue of the catholic church up and Josh was a top bloke clearly touched and affected by what he had seen.

[Pete/London]

There are other ways of not having children besides condoms. Bit of self control or physical management would do the same job, but I think they just knock out kids as a hopeful way of providing for themselves in their old age.

I dont understand the point of the program, started off as light entertainment reality program and then started delving into the shanty town areas. maybe it was muslim funded against the catholic church:doh

Nice to know they have the same response to traffic lights as over here, speed through on amber:)

[Dedworth]

Good programme but still puzzled as to why they referred to the Jeepney as a bus.

Thanks to Manila_Paul for that torrent site, some good stuff there :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[les_taxi]

It's on torrent reactor:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[imagine]

There are other ways of not having children besides condoms. Bit of self control or physical management would do the same job, but I think they just knock out kids as a hopeful way of providing for themselves in their old age.


self control, easier said than done, think about it , its a lifetime of self control needed,not a one off, could you do it from your time of being a young man, bursting with testosterone, what would you suggest ,abstain? oral sex instead, and they cant afford condoms,
im not a condom user , i want to feel what im doing and enjoy, use one id rather not have sex. im a male, both men and woman prefer sex with no rubber protection, in the view of it being a life time restriction, i dont blame them at all , sex is good :Sex:

[northern girl]

hello...I'm new to this forum but have been a silent reader for a while. I think this is great.:Jump:

[Manila_Paul]

It is not often I agree with the Catholic Church on anything but I do on population control. Even if for very different reasons. The poverty problem in the Philippines is an economic one. Over half the wealth of the country is exported abroad. What prospect for serious development in that circumstance?

[bornatbirth]

i watched the program last night with my wife and it was a mixed bag :Erm:

was it about driving a jeeney/bus or about the struggle to survive.....family planning after 13 kid's :icon_lol:

[emmscrow]

watch program in bbc2..but the video above is different. I like it and can't wait to come home.

[KeithD]

Since the number of poor outnumber the not so poor by a good number, it gave a good reflection..... the house looked familiar :D .... although it was a bit of a shock to wake up next to Rayna's brother and realise it wasn't a pillow my hands were between keeping warm :action-smiley-081: :omg:

[Lancashirelad]

I really enjoyed this programme, seeing the pagpag was an eye opener although im very aware of the poverty in Phils. I thought they could have shown more the bonds of family and friendship which are so strong there that seems often to be missing in the UK.
I thought the bus driver guy was a good choice too :xxgrinning--00xx3:, he seemed humbled by the hospitality shown to him, much as i felt when i stayed in my Gf's province in Davao oriental.

[KeithD]

I'm just glad my KFC leftovers don't go to waste :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[raynaputi]

i wanted to watch this program too but Keith can't fix my vpn connection! :bigcry:

[Englishman2010]

I'm just glad my KFC leftovers don't go to waste :xxgrinning--00xx3:

I was trying to see if the bag the flea ridden rabid dog went into was put in the mix or if it was thrown away......somehow I doubt it was wasted:omg:

[joebloggs]

i wanted to watch this program too but Keith can't fix my vpn connection! :bigcry:

get scourge scouser keith to pay £4 for a swiss vpn account for the month :D

:xxparty-smiley-004:

[raynaputi]

hahahaha..oh joe..he cant even afford a £1 at the moment..:Cuckoo:

[fred]

Someone suggest I try this ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiOB64fc8
and here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFBG-5FOSKA

Quite a few people say it works.. Im technically challenged and failed miserably.
If anyone understands this and can get it to work..Can you please explain how with detailed instructions!!
Cheers,
Fred.

[fred]

Enjoyed watching this a lot.. Damn..Thats what I miss!!! The BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNMm85CKWJk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56fmu5RNpo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-EHhG_fw8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r7vmEjHQ2Y&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wxWshXgCoU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdAsUm4iits&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[jimeve]

Was just about to post those links Fred, looks like you beat me to it. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Englishman2010]

Thanks for the links Fred:xxgrinning--00xx3: I've e-mailed those east, hopefully she can get a good enough connection to watch them:Erm:

[Manila_Paul]

Enjoyed watching this a lot.. Damn..Thats what I miss!!! The BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNMm85CKWJk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

9 minutes and 4 seconds. Look at the top of the van to the right of the trike Josh is on! :icon_lol: Proper Manila dog. Cool as a cumcumber!

[Manila_Paul]

Gotta love the girl who says PagPag is sarap: "I could eat other food... but I prefer PagPag". Make you wonder what that other food is that PagPag is nicer in comparison? :yikes:

[Sim11UK]

9 minutes and 4 seconds. Look at the top of the van to the right of the trike Josh is on! :icon_lol: Proper Manila dog. Cool as a cumcumber!

Haha! that is funny :icon_lol:

[malditako]

It was a great program, and a bit of an eye opener for me. I considered myself to be fairly experienced in how Filipino's live day to day, but it made me think I have been fairly protected from how a great number of Pinoys live in the squatter camps. The Pinoys I know are all fairly well educated, have decent jobs and don't have to resort to eating pagpag to survive. Whilst they don't have much by our standards, compared to some they are very well off.
Sadly these TV programmes always play up to the stereotype that all Pinoys are poor and live in slums, so that those who don't know what it is like think that everyone lives like that.
If a foreign TV chanel made a program about a British working family and shot it in the middle of an inner city slum, the rest of the world would also assume the whole of the UK is like that too.
It would be nice to see a bit of balance on these programmes to show how the average middle class Pinoy lives and what the slum dwellers aspire to.
Overall, it was great, and made me want to be back over there now.....although I'll give the pagpag a miss:omg:

i agree...i've watched some bbc programs about phils ( bad and unsighty side) which i believe is not being fair....philippine tourism is working hard to promote the country and this program does otherwise...am not saying dont broadcast whats really going on in the phils but at least broadcast some good side as well to balance.

[KeithD]

It even got a mention in the Philippine press http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/02/26/11/british-documentary-exposes-ugly-side-manila

[ron m.]

I watched this last night and was moved by Josh's experience. I googled his name hoping to send a short message of appreciation for his compassion and empathy and came to this site. For most of the responses here, your sentiments seem to align well with mine.

However, I am bothered by responses which imply that life isn't typically like that in Manila. I myself have had the privelege of being born under different circumstances (or as Warren Buffet puts it, I won the ovarian lottery). Sometimes, people don't have choices. People who do are often times the ones who make it seem that having choices is a birth right... not always. Filipinos who live overseas and go home to visit should try to walk the streets (like Josh did) to experience life as it truly is... a walk down the Fort does not count.

Another one that bothers me is the defense of the Church on the very specific subject of family planning. I think that people should be properly educated on the value of population control. The poor see children as potential sources of income, and hence try to have as many as possible. However, what they don't see is the big picture and that is, the more people competing for the same, finite and limited resource, the harder life becomes. The opportunities dwindle as population increases.

[Englishman2010]

I watched this last night and was moved by Josh's experience. I googled his name hoping to send a short message of appreciation for his compassion and empathy and came to this site. For most of the responses here, your sentiments seem to align well with mine.

However, I am bothered by responses which imply that life isn't typically like that in Manila. I myself have had the privelege of being born under different circumstances (or as Warren Buffet puts it, I won the ovarian lottery). Sometimes, people don't have choices. People who do are often times the ones who make it seem that having choices is a birth right... not always. Filipinos who live overseas and go home to visit should try to walk the streets (like Josh did) to experience life as it truly is... a walk down the Fort does not count.

Another one that bothers me is the defense of the Church on the very specific subject of family planning. I think that people should be properly educated on the value of population control. The poor see children as potential sources of income, and hence try to have as many as possible. However, what they don't see is the big picture and that is, the more people competing for the same, finite and limited resource, the harder life becomes. The opportunities dwindle as population increases.

Welcome to the forum Ron, I hope you can stick around. Do you have any connections with the Philippines yourself?
I agree with your last two paragraph's and would guess that most westerners would too. In the west we have largely abandoned religion or taken up non catholic religions which don't preach about the wrongs of birth control. However, our Filipino friends are still very deeply religious and do take on board what the Catholic church preaches. I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of that as I don't want to upset any of my fellow members. However, your last sentence sums up my view too:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[ron m.]

Welcome to the forum Ron, I hope you can stick around. Do you have any connections with the Philippines yourself?
I agree with your last two paragraph's and would guess that most westerners would too. In the west we have largely abandoned religion or taken up non catholic religions which don't preach about the wrongs of birth control. However, our Filipino friends are still very deeply religious and do take on board what the Catholic church preaches. I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of that as I don't want to upset any of my fellow members. However, your last sentence sums up my view too:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Thanks. I actually grew up there but migrated to the US in 1986 at the age of 16. I've been back several times and the stark difference between the rich and poor still shocks me. Don't get me wrong, poverty exists everywhere, even here in California. I just took a mountain bike ride yesterday with a couple of friends (or mates if you prefer) from my house to the hillside, which required us to cut through part of Oakland (not-so-desirable part of the Bay Area). My friends couldn't believe the contrast of Alameda and Oakland, which for all practical purpose, is only separated by a freeway.

But I digress... I think it's the proportion of poor people versus the rich that troubles me. There just are not very much opportunities out there. Getting an education does not guarantee a better life. A good number of fast food workers flipping your burgers there have some education (perhaps even college grads).

The blame is very difficult to pin. You could say that government needs to be less corrupt and serve the people more than the whim of politicians, and in a great way, this is true. Which probably implies that we need better politicians, yet our best and brightest are leaving the country in search of better opportunities (there are still some very good people there, but can you imagine how better we could be if all our talented people stayed?). I wouldn't even necessarily blame the Church because it brings its share of positive influences (I think it just needs to think a bit more progressively and pragmatically to reflect the current times).

Progress begins with the creation of opportunities, opportunities that help the greater good (environmentally, morally and ethically). But we need good shepherds in order to foster such an environment, and a common, unified goal. I'm starting to see that in the fringes (Gawad Kalinga comes to mind http://www.gk1world.com/), and hopefully, it will gain critical mass. I hope we as Pinoys abroad can support these endeavors and assert our influence to help make positive changes in our country.

Okay... off my soapbox now. :Rasp:

[aug06_2006]

Hello joe, I and my hubby watched it on tele and OMG made me upset and cried...

[Manila_Paul]

The poor see children as potential sources of income, and hence try to have as many as possible. However, what they don't see is the big picture and that is, the more people competing for the same, finite and limited resource, the harder life becomes. The opportunities dwindle as population increases.

Don't agree. The scarity you describe is artificially created. It is not real scarity. The world produces enough food every year to feed the everyone ten times over but tons of it goes to waste because only a relatively tiny fraction can afford to buy it. And they dump it rather than give it away so the prices of these commodities aren't forced down. Which in turns means the rate or profit falls. All this leads to the strange situation where more people are seen as a problem. Yet, it shouldn't. If an extra hand comes along to help me with a particular task, it could be completed twice as quick as if only one person was doing it. Theoreticall,y therefore, more people should mean we all become more wealthy. The point is: every human is a consumer but also a potential producer or innovator. The fact we don't take advantage of the latter fact is a problem of the wasteful prevailing social relations, not of the poor having too many kids.

[sars_notd_virus]

The poor see children as potential sources of income, and hence try to have as many as possible. However, what they don't see is the big picture and that is, the more people competing for the same, finite and limited resource, the harder life becomes. The opportunities dwindle as population increases.

I definitely agree with you Kabayan!!!:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

[smallfish]

I reckon that will be a real interesting watch. Bet it makes us all laugh.

[sars_notd_virus]

I reckon that will be a real interesting watch. Bet it makes us all laugh.

Indeed very interesting!!....you have to watch all 3 episodes and come back here and tell us if its all funny:rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00yrszw/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Paramedic/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z08wd/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Bus_Driver/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z5868/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Midwife/

[Englishman2010]

Indeed very interesting!!....you have to watch all 3 episodes and come back here and tell us if its all funny:rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00yrszw/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Paramedic/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z08wd/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Bus_Driver/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z5868/Toughest_place_to_be_a..._Midwife/

:xxgrinning--00xx3: There's certainly not much to laugh about on there, but it is great viewing. For us westerners who live priviliged lifestyles, it brings home the reality of what real life is like for many Filipino's

[ron m.]

Don't agree. The scarity you describe is artificially created. It is not real scarity. The world produces enough food every year to feed the everyone ten times over but tons of it goes to waste because only a relatively tiny fraction can afford to buy it. And they dump it rather than give it away so the prices of these commodities aren't forced down. Which in turns means the rate or profit falls. All this leads to the strange situation where more people are seen as a problem. Yet, it shouldn't. If an extra hand comes along to help me with a particular task, it could be completed twice as quick as if only one person was doing it. Theoreticall,y therefore, more people should mean we all become more wealthy. The point is: every human is a consumer but also a potential producer or innovator. The fact we don't take advantage of the latter fact is a problem of the wasteful prevailing social relations, not of the poor having too many kids.

Actually, I wasn't referring to food (I was thinking more along the lines of non-renewable resources like oil), but since you've mentioned it... yes, the earth could can easily sustain all 7 billion of us (otherwise, we wouldn't be 7 billion and growing, would we?). You did allude to artificial scarcity and I could see how that could be true. But the reality is that even the basic needs such as food is scarce for an alarming proportion of the population, primarily because they do not have the means to obtain it (by cultivating or using industry to afford it). Yes, it is such an inefficient way to exist but that is how people behave, and conditions are exacerbated when the number of people increases.

Furthermore, my main point is that people in poor countries have a propensity to have more children because they do see them as a form of security (when the parents get older) and income potential. That is an axiom accepted by sociologists and scholars. It is also a generally accepted idea that opportunities are scarcer in centers where numbers are greater.

In theory, your idea works when people see themselves as part of a larger collective (or a Utopian state) and behaves as such. Sadly, that is not the case, especially in situations when resources are scarce. Socialism is a great concept but I have yet to see it work, we as humans are just not sophisticated enough. And though it may be true that all us can be potential producers and innovators, present conditions play a very big role in whether or not that becomes a reality. Josh and Rogelio are classic examples.

Compassion and charity are easier when you have, not when you have not. I like your idea, but that's just not the reality.

[Arthur Little]

I watched this last night and was moved by Josh's experience. I googled his name hoping to send a short message of appreciation for his compassion and empathy and came to this site. For most of the responses here, your sentiments seem to align well with mine.

However, I am bothered by responses which imply that life isn't typically like that in Manila. I myself have had the privelege of being born under different circumstances (or as Warren Buffet puts it, I won the ovarian lottery). Sometimes, people don't have choices. People who do are often times the ones who make it seem that having choices is a birth right... not always. Filipinos who live overseas and go home to visit should try to walk the streets (like Josh did) to experience life as it truly is... a walk down the Fort does not count.

Another one that bothers me is the defense of the Church on the very specific subject of family planning. I think that people should be properly educated on the value of population control. The poor see children as potential sources of income, and hence try to have as many as possible. However, what they don't see is the big picture and that is, the more people competing for the same, finite and limited resource, the harder life becomes. The opportunities dwindle as population increases.


Welcome to the forum Ron, I hope you can stick around. I agree with your last two paragraph's and would guess that most westerners would too.I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of that as I don't want to upset any of my fellow members. However, your last sentence sums up my view too:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Ron ... :welcomex:. I, unfortunately, DIDN'T manage to see this programme ... because I'd been following something else on another channel. But like my friend, Ian [Englishman] :iagree: with the sentiments you've expressed in the paragraphs he refers to. To me also, they make a great deal of sense ... particularly in relation to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Arthur Little]

i agree...i've watched some bbc programs about phils ( bad and unsighty side) which i believe is not being fair....philippine tourism is working hard to promote the country and this program does otherwise...am not saying dont broadcast whats really going on in the phils but at least broadcast some good side as well to balance.

Yes, Grace ... :iagree: ... far too many programmes seem to concentrate on the less desirable aspects of the Philippines - and it annoys me intensely :cwm23: - when film and documentary makers consistently portray such images ... instead of focussing on the great - and unspoilt - natural beauty that I'm absolutely convinced, abounds throughout the 7.000-odd islands that make up the Archipelago! :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Arthur Little]

I hope you can stick around. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

:xxgrinning--00xx3: So do I; he talks a lot of sense, does Ron ...

[Arthur Little]

For us westerners who live priviliged lifestyles, it brings home the reality of what real life is like for many Filipino's

:gp: ... as, of course, do you, :) Ian! :yeahthat:

[mikey73]

Ron ... :welcomex:. I, unfortunately, DIDN'T manage to see this programme ... because I'd been following something else on another channel. But like my friend, Ian [Englishman] :iagree: with the sentiments you've expressed in the paragraphs he refers to. To me also, they make a great deal of sense ... particularly in relation to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control. :xxgrinning--00xx3:
hi arthur
the program should still be on bbci player and its on youtube too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNMm85CKWJk

there are 6 parts to the program on youtube

[fred]

Furthermore, my main point is that people in poor countries have a propensity to have more children because they do see them as a form of security (when the parents get older) and income potential. That is an axiom accepted by sociologists and scholars. It is also a generally accepted idea that opportunities are scarcer in centers where numbers are greater.

I heard a Bishop here on local TV saying much the same whilst condemning the use of condoms.. He actually said that the Philippines would be in a REAL mess now economically had todays population growth been artificially stemmed by family planning in past years.
Of course..He was referring to the mass exodus of the so called OFW`s that are forced to flee the R.P in order to support their families left behind that will forever more depend on their financial support whilst the latter continue to breed like rabbits ..
What he really means is that the poverty stricken massa are indeed the countries most bountiful and sustainable resource!! (Secretly I think he meant the Church`s greatest resource of free flowing donations)
I see a serious chink in this theory developing as many of these OFW`s work in the middle east.. Say no more!!


The world produces enough food every year to feed the everyone ten times over but tons of it goes to waste because only a relatively tiny fraction can afford to buy it. And they dump it rather than give it away so the prices of these commodities aren't forced down.

The world may produce enough but if it is not financially viable to distribute it to countries that actually need it then what is the point?
The Philippines has 100`s of thousands of fallow acres and cannot even produce enough rice for its own population.. 6 months ago a KG of onions cost 30.00 Pesos. Yesterday,I saw them for sale for 200.00 Pesos per Kilo!!.. I dont buy onions..I grow them along with calabasa,string beans,Tomatoes,papaya and many more..I have 15 layer hens that produce 15 eggs a day.. I sell 9 of them to the locals which pays for the following weeks chicken food leaving my family with 6 free eggs a day.
I make use of the many local resources that surround me but for some strange reason I notice that the locals do not... I have tried to encourage them but the only thing they seem interested in growing are weeds and cogon grass..:NoNo:


Arthur:
Yes, Grace ... ... far too many programmes seem to concentrate on the less desirable aspects of the Philippines - and it annoys me intensely - when film and documentary makers consistently portray such images ... instead of focussing on the great - and unspoilt - natural beauty that I'm absolutely convinced, abounds throughout the 7.000-odd islands that make up the Archipelago!


On many parts of the fantastic Archipelago,tourists are still having to step over street beggars.. How embarrassing is that for the tourism committee?
Yesterday I was put off my Pizza hut lunch again because the Badjao kids keep tapping on the windows pointing to their empty stomachs.. Really annoying and I wish the owners would put some tasteful bamboo blinds up so we can pretend they are not there.

[Manila_Paul]

Furthermore, my main point is that people in poor countries have a propensity to have more children because they do see them as a form of security (when the parents get older) and income potential. That is an axiom accepted by sociologists and scholars. It is also a generally accepted idea that opportunities are scarcer in centers where numbers are greater.

Well I agree with the first part of this. My parents were both 1 of 9 children in 1950s/60s rural Ireland. There was little money and few jobs. They nearly all evenually emigrated. And yes, it made sense to have that many kids at that time for the reasons you give. More children meant more hands to work the land, which was one of the few sources of wealth. Ireland also had no welfare at that time. Their parents were doing what their parents had done and fully expected their children to look after them in old age. So it made sense. Which is part of the reason I think the whole ire at the Catholic Church is wrongly directed. Even in Britain in the past there were much larger families than we have now for similar reasons and there are fewer countries in the world who have been less gripped by any concern for religion than Britain. In the same way, my grandparents weren't stupid and didn't have 18 kids between them because of anything to do with what the Catholic Church said.

But I don't see why your final line follows from all this? Ireland, for example, remains sparely populated when compared with the more densely populated but historically far richest Britain. Some of the most densely populated parts of the world are the richest. Take Manhatten. Around 1.8 million people crammed into a tiny little Island with some of the best living standards in the world. Meanwhile, Africa has some of the least densely populated countries on the planet and the worst social and economic problems. There is also China which is now 1/5 humanity, the most populus nation in the world, whose population has doubled in 60 years. In the same time they've lifted 275 million people out of poverty and life expectancy in that time has gone from 35 to around 73. There are numerous other examples which suggest that human numbers have little to do with anything when it comes to social or economic problems.

By the way, I should say, for what it is worth, that I still completely support the RH bill here. It is at least a start. I would like to see abortion on demand too. But I don't support these things because I think there are too many people about and this will help reduce the numbers. I support it because it is a basic issue of equality. Women can't play full and equal role in society when they can't control their fertilty in the same way that men can. Still, of course, most women here still wouldn't be able to do this even if the bill passed. The wider issue remains the Philippines imperialist domination. How to make progress when your economy is largely owned by foriegn multinationals who extract most of that wealth out of the country? And what is left is mostly hoovered by an elite in the Philippines who help facilitate this state of affairs. Worst still, many of these people are now the same ones blaming poverty on the poor having too many kids.

[grahamw48]

Your points are very well made.

Hong Kong and Singapore are also successful AND densely populated.

However, the (I would suggest) out of control human population requires RESOURCES....even the pen-pushers in the Cities that we've mentioned need to be accommodated, fuelled and fed.

Technology needs resources, construction needs resources, and people need at the very least food and warmth.

The planet just cannot continue to support vast numbers of human beings without consequences for us and our current way of life....let alone the other unfortunate creatures who are trying to co-exist with us selfish so and so's. :rolleyes:

A brake needs to be applied to this PLAGUE of humanity regardless of WHY things have turned out this way, if only to reduce the pain for our children and grandchildren.

Otherwise we will go the way of other plagues.

[lizaphil]

Will watch that Joe :)

Here's a couple of Americans having a go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSZZFj85L8

:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::icon_lol:

[indew]

the rest of the program was great.

[keeperlit]

karen and i watched josh and we were both moved i must be honest and say i was choked up when i saw my wife's eyes well up,,as i know how hard life was for her and her family,,,so i'm really proud of josh,,,,i loved the pirates of the caribbean theme ,,,,i nearly wet myself laughing at josh getting across the lanes ,,,,,its a shame the BBC stop the clips on youtube as i'm sure a lot of people would have loved to seen this.

[madmitch537]

hey i watched that tv program it was pretty factual in many ways by what i have seen in real and personnel knowledge i have gained visiting philippines
bravery was an understatement
really enjoyed it

[fred]

its a shame the BBC stop the clips on youtube as i'm sure a lot of people would have loved to seen this.

I downloaded it from a bit torrent site...a few of these sites still have it.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

We showed it to some people from Manila...They enjoyed it but couldn't understand why Josh was crying!!