1st visit to Philippines to meet gf [Archive]

leftofcentre201

13th April 2011, 22:03

Evening all. This is my first post on here and i'm after some advice on my first visit to the Philippines this coming July.

Ive been speaking to a girl i met on a dating site for about 2months now and we have really hit it off together. Not only is she absolutley gorgeous but she is so warm, kind hearted, loyal and actually really like me :Rasp: !!

We originally planned me to visit in October for two weeks but ive since decided to bring this forward initially to July with a 2nd visit in October. I'm only going for 7days in July as this is all i can get time off at work. I will be staying in Tagaytay which is near where she lives in St Rosa.

A bit of background on her is that she is still married although hasnt seen her husband for 2years and has 2 children aged 8 & 10. She lives with her father and is currently working as a Dental assistant. Her father doesnt work but looks after the children. My circumstances are similar in that i am also seperated but still married and have 3 children aged 5, 5 & 9.

I have been reading on here about the anulment proccess and accept that its going to take about 2 years if we get to that stage. I also would have to take care of my divorce which would be fairly simple.

My questions are:-
1) i believe it unlikely she will ever visit the UK within the next 2years until we can apply for a fiance visa because most Visit visas get declined due to lack of belief she will ever return to Ph.
2) She has said she is going to stay with me at the hotel in Tagaytay. What am i to expect? Bit embarrased to ask this but do i get a twin room? or is :do_it: possible :hubbahubba:
3) She seems overly concerned that people will stare at us in the street/at the airport because i am 6'3" and she is only 5'. She says she doesnt want people forming an opinion of her. Not quite sure how to take this although we have talked about it a lot. Do i get the impression that Brits have a bad reputation for illicit activities in Ph?
4) She is very demanding with my time on occasion which is rather flattering. We speak almost every day on skype and when i cannot get to a PC or when im out of the office we message on Yahoo all the time via our phones. She gets quite upset sometimes when i tell her im busy. Is this normal? She's calmed down a bit now but i really had to explain to her that i am very busy at work due to the nature of my job and i also have to share my time with my children.
5) When i visit, how will she react if i try to hold her hand in public :icon_lol: ? Or if i make a move to kiss :Cuckoo: ? (i feel like a teenager lol!!) I am asking this from and asia/europe culture difference point of view.
6) Finally. Whats the best/cheapest flight? I am attracted to KLM from Amsterdam with connections to Birmingham but its quite pricey £800+. Etihad seems to be the cheapest from LHR via Abu Dhabi around £600. Am also attracted to Singapore Airlines via Singapore on the A380 but again thats around £8-900.

All advice greatly appreciated.
All the best, Andy

Regarding #4), i mean we talk for 2-3hrs at a time on skype and sometimes i really dont have that much time available :NoNo:

I am worried i will lose her if she thinks i dont have time for her.

keeperlit

13th April 2011, 22:19

hi andy welcome,,,,,tagaytay is a nice place ,,,if you both think you have hit it of she should not worry what other people think ,,,although i met my wife here in belfast,the first time i went back to the philippines with her she was proud to be seen walking down the street holding my hand,,at baguio city a couple of people were staring at me (never seen a white man before lol) my wife snarled what you looking at he does not have two heads,,,,really andy just take things slowly so you both feel comfortable,,,,try andy@travelhouseuk.co.uk for flights tell him john moore sent you...we go back to manila in 3 weeks flight ticket each from london heathrow cost us 465 pounds

Ako Si Jamie

13th April 2011, 22:22

1. Go for fiancee visa
2. Subtlely find out what she wants, but I reckon she's after some jiggy jiggy :D
3. Not sure. Ask one of the others but be prepared to be stared at!
4. They can be jealous and demanding but try to look at in a positive way.
5. Hold her hand in public but don't kiss her.
6. I went with Saudi Airlines for £444 in Jan. Cheaper going from Heathrow than Birmingham.

shinx

13th April 2011, 22:34

for me the secret was to talk to her all your feelings, fears etc before. The benefit of the internet is you can get all those things out of the way before you meet, that ensures it can go as well as possible - no 'ice' to break. With all things better to assume nothing, ask her feeling, pay complete attention to her. Best of luck. My first meet with my Cindy was absolutely amazing, went with my instincts, best thing I have ever done... my experience was you will get lots of stares but its because foreign partners are considered by most to be very desirable. Just focus on her, smile, be polite, dont worry about others around you... btw I went Cathay Pacific, recommended...

grahamw48

13th April 2011, 23:58

Hi, and welcome to the forum. :)

My twopenneth...which may or may not be welcomed. :D

(I was married to a Filipina, and brought her and her 2 kids here. Been back and forwards to Phils for more than 20 years).

Anyway...7 days is too short a trip...waste of money. You'll be jetlagged for half of it, and not able to fully enjoy (hopefully) the experience, or have a properly functioning mind.

July is probably the worst month to go for weather...likely to be chucking it down, and everything muddy dirty and smelly (even more than normal :icon_lol:).

The lady COULD be a scammer. Tread very carefully and don't let the hormones triumph over good sense.

If she has a husband and children you are embarking on a very stressful and expensive journey. :NoNo:

There are thousand upon thousand of SINGLE AND CHILDLESS young ladies in the Phils who are likely to genuinely think that you are the best thing since sliced bread, and to whom you'll definately be attracted in a big way.

Height difference...no problem. My friend is 6'4" and his wife less than 5ft.
My ex is 4'10", and me 6'1".

If it were me I'd wait til October (or even better Xmas and New Year), take the 21 days visa-free or longer if possible. If the lady gets too impatient then something is not right.

If she's happy about going alone to a hotel with you 'straight off the plane', then I'd be asking whether this was a regular occurrence with her. :Erm:

A lot of ladies on these dating sites are accustomed to dating both romantic suitors and 'sex tourists' in this way. :rolleyes:

It's a tough world out there, but better to be told about the REAL one. :)

Best of luck, but use a lot of common sense. Their culture isn't THAT different to ours, but in general they have a lot less money than us and tend to daydream even more. ;)

keithAngel

14th April 2011, 03:50

I would second Grahams words of caution your open account triggers warning flags quite apart from which you have if theres any intention to bring her and the kids to the UK picked the most time consuming and costly version.

It is also an imprisonable offence if her ex complains to commit adultery with a married woman in t5he Phils and leaves you vunerable to shake down:xxgrinning--00xx3:

leftofcentre201

14th April 2011, 07:11

Hi all and thanks for the advice and comments so far.

I do not honestly believe she is a "loose woman". She has always said to me over and over that i should not expect too much from her and that so many guys on dating sites have propositioned her as a sex companion for money.

We have talked quite a lot about lots of personal things and i also know for a fact that she has not slept around.

I thoroughly understand the comments regarding her marital status and children but thats life for me. I also have that kind of baggage so why shouldnt she be given that 2nd chance just like myself? I hate it when western girls judge men (and have judged me) because ive been married or have children. Personally i'm not that shallow. Nevertheless i appreciate the kind words of wisdom so thanks for the comments :)

I know a week is too short but this has kind of been a last minute decision and an addition to my trip in October.

All that said, i have been reading this site over the last few days and had my eyes opened regarding sending money to support a fiance :doh
I did ask her yesterday if this is what is attracting her to me and is she falling in love with me as an investment rather than a bf/partner/hubby. Shortly after we had our first argument as she got rather upset with my questions. She has messaged me this morning with repeated questions if i'm having 2nd thoughts *sigh*.

To be honest i'm totally overwhelmed by how much she seems to be into me. Her persistant contact is testament to that. My only worry is that when i visit, if i fall head over heals, how do i cope with the pain of leaving her behind and am i a strong enough character to cope with only seeing her for maybe 2months max a year.

If i dont bother visiting her and let her down, maybe i'l be passing up on my only chance of best friend/soulmate/lover (i am a romantic :D ). For all i know, she maybe the one ?

Your comments are always appreciated.

Andy

somebody

14th April 2011, 09:21

Some good advice from those who know more about annullment etc.

Tagatay is a tourist location so plenty of whiteys will have visited and also quite a well off area so most will mind there own from my experience.

Im going there on Saturday most likely to see some of the Wifes friends so can give more of an update then.

Comments will get made im avg height 5 10 and my wife is a little taller than the norm in phill she is 5 ft 4

We went to an event last night and I think I was the only non Phill there most people ignored us but a few made a double look and a few made silly coments. But nothing much but it pays to use common sense where and when you go places.

you will be thouht of her meal ticket out and she may be treated as if.. Best thing i found is to be respectful to all dont give people a chance to think your rude or snobs.

Both of you need to learn patiences.. 7 days is very short you could have jet lag for all that time and only be comfortable with the weather surroundings by the time u go home..

Always have what if this is not going right plan on first meeting (and any others to be honest)

Do look for signs she knows the hotel well and if you dont have contct with many family members i can understand you ot meeting all but if she really loves u her close confidantes i.e sister,cousins or aunt or friends will meet you either the first day or at some point..

For the first night seperate rooms maybe a good idea if you have any doubts. Keep your wits around you.

My Wife on our first visit stayed in the same room as me but was not a scammer

But you need to understand her background not all pinays are the same just as not all brits are..

mickcant

14th April 2011, 09:23

Also if you do get on well and want to bring her here to be with you, does the father of her children have a say on if they could come here?
Is is name on their birth certs?

This could be very costly but you will be able to judge best when with her there:Erm:

All the best,
Mick.:)

worthingmale

14th April 2011, 13:50

good luck on your visit, I was so nervous when I met my lady for the first time, plus I met her and the family not just her on the first time.

medg22

14th April 2011, 16:29

Hello Andy,

I have read your post and I would like to share my opinion (filipina perspective).

Firstly, i do agree with Graham about the 'lady COULD be a scammer'. As you've said, you only met her for 2 months. Be aware that there are a lot of 'fake' people in the world. Not only in the Philippines. Although you communicate in a daily basis, I believe it is not enough for you to go and visit her ASAP and knowing that you'll only stay there for a week. 7 days is not enough, again, they are right... you'll just have jetlag. Better save the date when you can visit her for 21 days.

And another thing, don't take advantage of the fact that she will be staying in the same room with you. Respect her. Remember, it is your 1st meeting. (My hubby DID NOT :do_it: during his first visit, because I told him to wait till our wedding night (P.S I was a virgin and 19 that time) and I admire and proud of him so much for patiently waiting :)
BUT if she insists, then :xxgrinning--00xx3: go for it! lol.

Girls could be very demanding sometimes, I myself will be sad/upset when my hubby can't txt me while I was still in the Philippines. But you're right you should take it positively, it only means that she is attached already... to you.

Well, it is still up to you anyway, whether you'll do it soon or wait. Best of luck to you! :)

Arthur Little

14th April 2011, 16:39

Since both MY wife and myself were widowed when WE met, neither divorce nor annulment came into the equation :rolleyes: ... so there's nothing constructive I can possibly add to the advice you've already been given - and will continue to receive - in response to your introductory thread. I would, however, like to bid you a very cordial :welcomex: to our friendly online filipino/uk site and wish you all the best with your budding romance - in the hope everything works out. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

keithAngel

14th April 2011, 17:24

Hello Andy,

I have read your post and I would like to share my opinion (filipina perspective).

. Better save the date when you can visit her for 21 days.

BUT if she insists, then :xxgrinning--00xx3: go for it! lol.

:)

I would agree with 14 or 21 days but on your second point whilst proving nothing it would be out of caracture for the man not to be the "seducer" and from first hand experience anoth flag:xxgrinning--00xx3:

scott&ligaya

14th April 2011, 19:02

Welcome to the forum, If you are birmingham based and fancy a beer and a chat I am happy to add what I can.

sars_notd_virus

14th April 2011, 20:57

Hello Andy Welcome to the forum!!

As soon as you arrive in the airport and your girl collects you,tell her that you would love to meet her father and her kids and ask permission to the father if its ok to take his daughter wherever you fancy.,...If your gf gives excuses or alibi, you have the reason to doubt ....expect the unexpected!!!
have a safe trip and enjoy your holiday!!

grahamw48

14th April 2011, 22:47

:yikes: :NEW3: :thumbsdown:

Lancashirelad

15th April 2011, 00:08

Hi,

1. Visit visa's are not so expensive like the fiancee visa, if she came without her children :yikes: you could make a good case for her intention to return.
2. I asked my girlfriend straight out, what type of room should i book? We discussed it and planned if things went well we would play it by ear. We decided on a double room, although we had chatted for nearly a year and were already planning to get engaged if things went well.
3. I went to stay in my Gfs moms province for a couple of days, some of the people there had never seen a white guy and yes they stared lots! lol they were so great and friendly tho.
4. Its normal if she really likes you! it makes me inclined to think she prob not a scammer, not the behavior of a scammer after 2 months. Just be open to the idea tho.
5. Holding hands is ok, kissing in public probably no.
6. 7 days isnt ideal but if i had chance for 7days to see my gf I would jump at it, if thats all the time you got i say go for it!
Try get sleep on the plane, drink lots of water and not alcohol on the plane and you will feel better for it. Good luck and have a great time.

:)

somebody

15th April 2011, 08:46

To check all ok talk about typical prices and costs and then compare with what people tell you on here although bare in mind they vary from region to region and to a degree social class if that makes sense.

In the household im in at the moment thre is never silence during waking hours always constant chatter and texting or facebooking etc.

Put it this wa on globe for 20 pesos which is about 30 p ish you can get 250 texts to anyone to be used in 24 hours...

With many that would not be a huge amount and the sound of incoming texts is constant..

So a few hours with no radio contact seems like a life time to a pinay:D

Medg 22 has some great advice for you :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Even though surrounded by family and friends and know the house and area well plus the conditions im only just feeling myself again after adapting to the differences in weather time and what not just now and its just over 7 days since we got here.

Oh can recommend singapore airlines :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Also dont feel your letting her down if she gets impatient now what ill happen with the long possibly drawn out process in front of you?

If she is happy to see you for the right reasons she will wait plenty on here have had to ensure months even years of waiting.
If she is into much of a hurry for anyone to "rescue her" and cant wait for you or get a free holiday then you have had a close escape..

grahamw48

15th April 2011, 08:55

Good post ! :)

worthingmale

15th April 2011, 13:28

tonnes of good advice here, please do listen to it and you will have avery enjoyable time,

remember if it goes wrong or your not geeting a good vibe, there are plenty of good honest ladies out there

so dont get to disheartened.

bornatbirth

16th April 2011, 01:06

aposhark

16th April 2011, 11:50

mickcant

16th April 2011, 12:45

raynaputi

16th April 2011, 20:03

:omg: i did stay in the same room of the hotel when i met Keith! should he be careful that i'm scamming him?!?! WARNING Keith!!! :laugher:

aposhark

16th April 2011, 20:35

:omg: i did stay in the same room of the hotel when i met Keith! should he be careful that i'm scamming him?!?! WARNING Keith!!! :laugher:
City Girl :) :Cuckoo::Cuckoo:
As long as you only shook hands, you are respectable :icon_lol:
When will you give him back the platinum credit card though?

raynaputi

16th April 2011, 20:44

so are u saying i'm not respectable if i didn't do just that?! and don't worry i have my own credit card..no need for his ;)

Tawi2

16th April 2011, 21:26

somebody

19th April 2011, 07:49

Andy,she has been married and has children,she wont be a chaste shrinking violet,i met a good number of pinays when I lived in Hong Kong who were in all probability Maria Clara personified back home in the boonies under the watchfull eyes of their families,once they had a little freedom and were working abroad,out of sight out of mind,they werent subdued nor shy at all,I learnt a lot about filipinas and women in general back then,enjoy your trip,take it as it comes,be lucky;)

With modern Pinays you will find many are as you say not mary popins but demure in front of the family and friends..

For example of the Wifes friends who have facebook pages of Bible and God references many also have healthy relationships with long term boyfriends on the go it appears away from those in their day to day lives.

Phill households typically have generations even different families in them so taking home bf is not an option so healthy weekends away with groups of friends are organised and oh look bf is in the group ;)

philphil61

22nd April 2011, 15:22

I apologise now if this seems negative but it's true and recently happened and yes I'm still hurting - so take all this into consideration before you criticise my post.

Words of caution have previously been mentioned and I will explain my situation.

I went to Philippines Oct 2008 on a surprise visit to meet my LTR of 8months chatting online.

All went well luckily and for the first 1yr or so very happy although we lost our first child. We never married becoz I was still waiting divorce.

After our 2nd child born 30th Oct 2010 everything went bad. My financial status dropped from some court action in UK that I could not fight. The filipino family I was living with knew everything before I left and accepted everything when I arrived. But as soon as my financial status changed - so did their opinion of me. I was ignored. I went without food some days and my ex gf was always supportive to her parents and not me.

By Jan I had no money left, had over stayed my visa and had to apply for charitable help to fly back. Our relationship was strained not close loving but still sleeping together.

I flew back mid Mar 2011 was having daily chats with her and my son - missing him loads as any happy father would. I became suspicious mainliy becoz I'm a jealous guy!!!

Today I just confirmed that she has a new bf from USA with her and has been visiting for a week (that's the reason I've not seen my son for 6 days) now. Apparantly she'd been chatting from Feb 2011 to others even before I'd left her and the Philippines yet the relationship, I assumed, between us was still difficult and not loving.

So there's another warning on top of spammers or liars who tell you they are leaving their husbands or single - even before your relationship totally ends they begin finding new!!!!

I've met many filipina and I've chatted to thousands but unfortunately there is only one who is too old for my "requirements" that I can trust without question.

As many say here - there are real loving honest filipina out there - who seek a good loving relationship BUT you're going to have to fight past the heartache and dig through the bad to find these rare filipina..

Tawi2

22nd April 2011, 15:45

As many say here - there are real loving honest filipina out there - who seek a good loving relationship BUT you're going to have to fight past the heartache and dig through the bad to find these rare filipina
It always surprises me the guys who marry the first pinay they meet,I have known one or two over the years,but out of them all have met exactly three who I knew without a shadow of a doubt were 100% genuine and wanted me not for cash(I have none)but for me,I have met a shedload like you mentioned,and a host more who had ulterior motives,you have to sieve a lot of gravel to find a diamond;)

grahamw48

22nd April 2011, 15:48

philphil61

22nd April 2011, 16:43

(philphil69)

Though to a certain extent I can sympathise with you (change in financial status), your actions seem to me to have been pretty irresponsible.

I particularly have issues with people who bring children into the world without being able to provide them with a secure and happy home, and preferably two parents, married to each other.

It's not as if you're a daft teenager.

Does your child have a British passport ?

Irresponsible actions? dont judge before you ask please

I wanted to bring him back here to UK but the ex gf would not sign the official documentation to allow him to travel out of the Philippines.....

If she had signed the form I would have sorted the UK passport.

I too have issues with people who bring into this world children without being able to be responsible for their actions...

And I am a man although adult > I still act like a teenage sometimes...... ;)

like all men do!

Rosie1958

22nd April 2011, 17:07

......... I went to Philippines Oct 2008 on a surprise visit to meet my LTR of 8months chatting online.

All went well luckily and for the first 1yr or so very happy although we lost our first child. We never married becoz I was still waiting divorce.

After our 2nd child born 30th Oct 2010 everything went bad. My financial status dropped from some court action in UK that I could not fight. The filipino family I was living with knew everything before I left and accepted everything when I arrived. But as soon as my financial status changed - so did their opinion of me. I was ignored. I went without food some days and my ex gf was always supportive to her parents and not me.

By Jan I had no money left, had over stayed my visa and had to apply for charitable help to fly back. Our relationship was strained not close loving but still sleeping together.

I flew back mid Mar 2011 was having daily chats with her and my son - missing him loads as any happy father would. I became suspicious mainliy becoz I'm a jealous guy!!!

Today I just confirmed that she has a new bf from USA with her and has been visiting for a week (that's the reason I've not seen my son for 6 days) now. Apparantly she'd been chatting from Feb 2011 to others even before I'd left her and the Philippines yet the relationship, I assumed, between us was still difficult and not loving.

So there's another warning on top of spammers or liars who tell you they are leaving their husbands or single - even before your relationship totally ends they begin finding new!!!!..

Really sorry to read about your experience PhilPhil 61. You appear to have been very unlucky and I'm glad to hear that you managed to get back to the UK before any further harm was done. I hope that you are able to see your son again one day before too long. Keep your chin up :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Manila_Paul

21st May 2011, 16:53

Hi leftofcentre201,

A lot of good advice so far.

I am just a little concerned that she told you she would stay in the same hotel :yikes:
That seems out of character for a Filipina from what I know, and from what my Filipina wife has told me.
My wife is from the province though and things are different there compared to the city.

Be careful.

Not my exprience at all. Filipinos in general just don't seem to regard sex as, as big a deal as we do in the west. The attitude appears very relaxed. And my g/f is from the province too. This said, I'm probably dealing with a slightly younger demographic here. Maybe older Pinays are more conservative or get more conservative as they get older. But the younger people that I've met are very laid back. This said, the lack of sex education combined with promiscuity leads to some amusing (and perhaps worrying) ideas about sex.

Perhaps it is the result of having such a young population. You also have to partly wonder if, for many, it is because there is naff all else to do entertainment wise... so.... err.. make your own! :icon_lol:

I would say texting you all the time and worried when you're busy is usually also a very positive sign.

The 'worried what people will think' thing often seems to come down to two things: 1) People think I'm only with him for the money/chance to move abroad 2) People will think I'm a whore. The former is more common, I think.

Me and my girlfriend were at Enchanted Kingdom a couple of weeks back and she had the former openly said to her for the first time. We were in a queue for a ride and one guy was coming back out of the same queue. He saw us together and said 'jackpot' to my girlfriend. It did upset her a bit but she brushed it off quite well. She said something along the lines of 'you came into my life... i never went looking for you'. Which is true but pointless trying to explain to the numpties who are always going to think what they're going to think.

keith britten

22nd May 2011, 12:48

Hi Andy,
I have just returned this week from my first visit to the Phils to meet a woman who I have been chatting to daily online or the past 8 months although we did'nt meet on a dating site, it was a chance meeting on a social site and neither of us was looking for love at the time. Out attraction to each other just developed over the months. ok our circumstances seem different but unless you go there you will never know and may regret it. One week is a bit short but better than nothing, I went for 5 weeks. When my g/f met me at the airport our bonding was instant, she is the most loving, caring, natural and honest woman I have ever met and she lived up to all my expectations and more. We are complete soulmates and are now engaged and plan to get married within the next year. I am going to live out there with here and I'm planning my move right now. She has a very large family and they all made me feel very welcome, I now consider myself part of her family. Enjoy your stay in the Phils, they are very friendly people, they will stare at you, not because your tall and your g/f is short, same here, but most think all white guys are american and their name is Joe, lol. Don't let this worry you. Get to know your g/f and hopefully you will bond like us. The flights are expensive, I went KLM, Norwich-Amsterdam-Manila at the cost of £760 then an onward flight to Davao with Cebu Pacific. Parting on your return if you hit it off together will be painful, very painful but I know that I will have a future life with a wonderful woman waiting for me on my return.
Good Luck,
Keith

sexiimulditah

25th May 2011, 01:54

me and my man did stay in same room during his first visit...oh my:Rasp:i didnt know its not that good to look at lmao..but hey it was amazing:hubbahubba:...im not a scammer tho,im a lover:rolleyes:

grahamw48

25th May 2011, 11:31

What's not that good to look at ?:Erm:

....the room ?

:D

tone

25th May 2011, 12:29

Makes me glad I met my babe whilst I was working in the region, she is the first Filipina I have met and I have been exceedingly lucky we were able to live together for such a long time.
Although now working back in the UK and her being back in the Phils its really tough being apart and my head spins everyday waiting for the processes to conclude.
Everyday we talk, chat and exchange fb messages and the distance makes the heart grow fonder.
Roll on August when I believe she will be able to travel to the UK and we get married.
I've never clicked so well with anyone as I have with her and I believe in some crazy way were were meant to be.

Good luck mate with your trip!

I'd say a diamond found me on this occasion!
Tone

SteveL

2nd June 2011, 00:14

opodo are able to offer Emirates from Manchester at £623 with 30kg luggage allowance. It's a shorter trip than London and we dont have any smelly Londoners here .............hahahaha.

I'm sure by now you've read the advice of my fellow forum members. Getting involved with an already married woman with children will not be easy but the heart wants what the heart wants , so if your serious about her go for it. It's easy to think that she has boyfriends visiting every other week but in most cases its the opposite. For every one guy whose prepared to go to the trouble and expense of visiting a girl in Phils there are 1000 who just want cam sex. In my experience, the fact that your prepared to go see her will mean a lot to her, it will mean your real!
Take things slow , treat her like a lady and dont expect any sex , that way if you get some it's a bonus rather than you feeling cheated if you dont. Best tip - meet the children - the easiest way to make her trust you is by getting her children onside. Good Luck