Nurses from Eastern Europe put NHS patients in danger

[Dedworth]

Nurses from Eastern Europe put NHS patients in danger because they can’t speak proper English, one of Britain’s top doctors has warned.

Lord Winston said yesterday that he was particularly worried about those from Romania and Bulgaria who had limited communication skills ‘even in their own language’.

He told the House of Lords they had been trained in a ‘completely different way’ to British nurses, and were not used to speaking to doctors or their own patients.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2035316/Nurses-speak-English-patients-danger-Lord-Winstons-stark-warning-NHS-workers-Romania-Bulgaria.html#ixzz1XRA83dyj

It is appalling that we bow down to the Euro rules that allow this situation

[KeithD]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow :doh

[joebloggs]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow :doh

:censored: europeans :Kilt:

:xxparty-smiley-004:

:D

[grahamw48]

Totally agree Dedworth.

It has to be of paramount importance that medical staff can communicate effectively with both other staff and patients. If not....no job.

Meanwhile there are many young British school-leavers with the correct A-level grades who want to enter the medical profession, but can't get a place on a course in their own country that DOES have space for foreigners.

This is a total nonsense. :angry:

[Arthur Little]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow :doh

:Kilt: ... on the warpath ...


:censored: europeans :Kilt:

:xxparty-smiley-004:

:D

[johncar54]

Listening to many of the people interviewed on TV (especially the young) I get the impression there are a lot of people who appear to be u¡bale to speak English reasonably well and who are able to coherently express their thoughts.

NB I am referring to indigenous Brits not new comers!

[Arthur Little]

Totally agree Dedworth.

And ME! :cwm23: That's the very reason I'm so vehemently opposed to this Language Testing nonsense for decent, hardworking, friendly and law-abiding Filipino immigrants ... who are schooled in English and invariably contribute so much more to the UK Economy than any other Nationality on Earth (including most Europeans and many of the Brits themselves) !!!

[joebloggs]

And ME! :cwm23: That's the very reason I'm so vehemently opposed to this Language Testing nonsense for decent, hardworking, friendly and law-abiding Filipino immigrants ... who are schooled in English and invariably contribute so much more to the UK Economy than any other Nationality on Earth (including most Europeans and many of the Brits themselves) !!!

i'm pretty certain i'm right, if a brit does a medical degree outside the EU (with a few exceptions) you would probably have to take the academic version of IELTS and get i thinks its 7.0 or 7.5 in every part (not that easy to do) b4 you could do your PLAB exams and register with the GMC :laugher:

[Arthur Little]

It is appalling that we bow down to the Euro rules that allow this situation

O~h, indeed it IS :angry: ... and this deplorable state of affairs is gonna continue ad-infinitum until :Britain: extricates itself from bureaucratic European domination.

[Arthur Little]

Listening to many of the people interviewed on TV (especially the young) I get the impression there are a lot of people who appear to be *u¡bale to speak English reasonably well and who are able to coherently express their thoughts.


John ...:yeahthat: ... were you meaning to type *unable? :Erm: ...

[Dedworth]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

[Arthur Little]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

:iagree: ... PRECISELY my point in #7 !

[lastlid]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

I guess a drawback of signing up to the EEC....

[johncar54]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

Sorry I am confused. These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to compare apples with oranges

[andy222]

Totally agree Dedworth.

It has to be of paramount importance that medical staff can communicate effectively with both other staff and patients. If not....no job.

Meanwhile there are many young British school-leavers with the correct A-level grades who want to enter the medical profession, but can't get a place on a course in their own country that DOES have space for foreigners.

This is a total nonsense. :angry:


You have hit the nail on the head graham. Could not agree more. :icon_eek:

[Dedworth]

Sorry I am confused.

Can't see why - read the Daily Mail article it's very simple, there's been previous postings on here


These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to comparing apples with oranges

These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English therefore unable to communicate with patients / co-workers thus putting lives at risk.

Filipinos with far higher qualifications, nursing and language skills are subject to the vagaries of UKBA jobs shortage list and stringent English tests.

Would you be happy to wake up in an ICU with an illiterate Romanian scratching her head wondering what controlled drugs to pump into you ?

[johncar54]

Dedworth.
I was not confused with the story but your reactions.

We all know very well that the EU has laws which give us all certain rights. Like working where we want in the EU.

But you seem to think that Filipinos who speak English (should) have more right to work in the UK than EU citizens have.

I have no personal knowledge of the professional qualifications which people need to work in the medical profession in the UK but I have no reason to believe that EU citizens do not require the SAME qualifications as anyone else.


"These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English"

Unfortunately, I believe that comment appears to reveal your prejudices rather than reality.

[Arthur Little]

Sorry I am confused. These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to compare apples with oranges

Not really, John. :nono-1-1:

We're talking here, about a basic lack of communication between key healthcare workers - notably doctors & nursing staff - and their patients. Regardless of Nationality! And therein lies the danger. Inevitably, medical standards throughout the world will continue to vary greatly according to the training and resources available. Nevertheless, in order to carry out his/her role effectively, a health professional ANYWHERE needs to be able to communicate on a level that the person receiving treatment fully understands. But whereas most - if not all - Filipino doctors and nurses are perfectly capable of fulfilling this fundamental requirement ... it seems the vast majority of their non-English speaking European counterparts are NOT! :NoNo:

[Dedworth]

Dedworth.
I was not confused with the story but your reactions.

We all know very well that the EU has laws which give us all certain rights. Like working where we want in the EU.

But you seem to think that Filipinos who speak English (should) have more right to work in the UK than EU citizens have.

I have no personal knowledge of the professional qualifications which people need to work in the medical profession in the UK but I have no reason to believe that EU citizens do not require the SAME qualifications as anyone else.

QUOTE "These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English"

Unfortunately, I believe that comment appears to reveal your prejudices rather than reality.

I only want Healthcare professionals who can communicate effectively with patients and co-workers and who fully understand the workings and practices of the NHS/UK Private Health Sector - that applies to lliterate Romanians, knackered German Locums administering x 10 correct drug dosage and sundry middle eastern doctors one can barely understand.

Unfortunately you chose not to answer my hypothetical question of your goodself lying in an ICU or does it's absence appear to reveal more of your slavish admiration of the crazed EU and it's so called "rights" ?

By the way I do speak with some knowledge - my wife's a Nurse and she's had to rectify some basic errors made by Eastern Europeans.

As an ex Policeman you might be interested that crime by your wonderful EU migrants has trebled in the last 3 years and surprise, surprise the top 3 league positions by a county mile are held by Poland, Romania and Lithuania

Britain is suffering an explosion in crimes by EU nationals, who are amassing more than 2,700 convictions every month.

Since 2007, the number of EU citizens punished for breaking the law in the UK has more than trebled.

The total is expected to hit a record 33,000 this year, placing huge pressure on the police, courts and overcrowded jails.

But because of EU diktats and Labour’s Human Rights Act, officials are finding it extremely hard to remove European lawbreakers once they have completed their sentences.

According to the latest Home Office figures, 27,563 EU nationals were convicted in 2010, up from 10,736 in 2007.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2034930/Crime-EU-migrants-trebles--throw-out.html#ixzz1XTUsTEiG

[Englishman2010]

Was there a case a couple of years ago where a Ghanaian doctor with a German Passport came to work here using EU freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?

[grahamw48]

was there a case a couple of years ago where a ghanaian doctor with a german passport came to work here using eu freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?

Yes.

[branno]

theres quite a few overseas doctors like that too..

[Dedworth]

Same problems in Sweden - blind adherence to bizarre EU Rules again to blame.

Foreign docs' poor Swedish leading to errors

http://www.thelocal.se/24618/20100127/

A doctor’s insufficient Swedish skills are being blamed for delaying the removal of a patient’s malignant melanoma by nearly two months, prompting concern among health officials about the number of doctors who don’t speak the language well enough.

“It’s increasingly the case that mistakes occur within the healthcare system because doctors from other countries can’t communicate adequately,” Karin Hedner, a supervisory doctor with the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen) regional office in Malmö, told the Dagens Medicin newspaper.

Hedner’s comments come following revelations that an 88-year-old patient at the Malmö University Hospital in southern Sweden failed to understand the severity of a diagnosis delivered by his foreign-born doctor.

The doctor had tried to explain that the patient’s malignant melanoma ought to be removed as soon as possible.

But the patient misunderstood the diagnosis and instead went on an extended overseas vacation, the Sydsvenskan newspaper reports.

When the 88-year-old had a follow up visit three months later, the growth had become nearly 50 percent larger.

“It is our conclusion that if they had been able to communicate better, perhaps he could have got the patient to understand that it should have been operated on right away,” Hedner told Sydsvenskan.

Another official with the health board’s supervisory division, Per-Anders Sunesson, confirmed that doctors’ Swedish skills are an issue, adding that the agency has alerted the government about the matter.

“The problem is growing as we get more doctors from other countries,” Sunesson told Dagens Medicin.

When doctors come to Sweden from countries outside the European Union they must first take a specialized language test before they receive a licence to practice medicine in Sweden.

However, when a doctor from another EU country comes to Sweden, it is up to their Swedish employer to ensure that they have sufficiently strong language skills, often resulting to uneven checks on how well doctors speak and understand Swedish.

[joebloggs]

Was there a case a couple of years ago where a Ghanaian doctor with a German Passport came to work here using EU freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?


theres quite a few overseas doctors like that too..

non Eu docs have to pass IELTS and PLAB 1 and 2 exams to register with the GMC and to work in the uk, Eu docs dont have to, but its up to the NHS trust which is employing them to check they are qualified and their English is good enough, i think the German doctor was refused by a number of NHS trusts, but got lucky with one trust.

thou the crazy thing is, me being a brit, my wife had to pass ielts and plab exams to work in the uk, yet if she married a non Brit European, and decided to come to the uk, she wouldn't have to take ielts or plab exams because your not allowed to restrict Europeans from working :crazy::angry:

[joebloggs]

When doctors come to Sweden from countries outside the European Union they must first take a specialized language test before they receive a licence to practice medicine in Sweden.

However, when a doctor from another EU country comes to Sweden, it is up to their Swedish employer to ensure that they have sufficiently strong language skills, often resulting to uneven checks on how well doctors speak and understand Swedish.

same as you the uk

[branno]

i dont wish to rant and rave about whos the best ..ie.. british nurses or overseas nurses and doctors too.. but most people i kno .. say that they have always recieved far better treatment and far better bed side manners by our overseas friends...

[Dedworth]

Grandmother died 'after mumbling German doctor botched hip operation'

A grandmother died following a bungled hospital operation after a foreign surgeon who carried it out began 'mumbling' in German to colleagues as they tried to help save her life, a medical tribunal heard today.

Dr Werner Kolb, 51, claimed to speak 'very good English' yet reverted to his native language as he botched a hip operation on 94-year old Ena Dickinson as a locum at Grantham Hospital, Lincolnshire.

During the routine operation Dr Kolb cut the wrong muscle and severed an artery causing Mrs Dickenson to lose over two and a half litres of blood.

Colleagues who spotted he was 'struggling, frustrated and agitated' tried to ask him if they could help yet Kolb gave his response in German and another doctor had to be brought in to complete the procedure.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286511/Grandmother-died-mumbling-German-doctor-botched-hip-operation-tribunal-told.html#ixzz1XToccJD7

He legged it to Germany and refused to attend the GMC Disciplinary hearing - maybe he's practicing nowadays in sunnier climes - Spain perhaps

[Doc Alan]

I'm a Glasgow doctor - although not a GP - with multilingual communication skills :).
http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/26494-Rogue-doctors?highlight=Rogue+doctors
UK medicine is respected worldwide ; there are far more applicants than places at our medical schools ; only 7.5% of the undergraduate intake is from overseas. Numbers entering medical schools - and UK doctors - should reflect society's needs, demographics, and what is affordable. They should all have the same tests of competence , including communication skills, and continue professional development for their entire working life.
" Blind adherence to bizarre EU rules " is certainly not doctors' and nurses' faults :NoNo:. Stating facts ( as I have done previously ) and voicing strong opinions on a forum - or the " Daily Mail " - is not enough for changes to take place :NoNo:. Those who CAN make changes - influential doctors and nurses - are attempting to do just that :-
* Lord Winston is not the only one to speak out at the House of Lords Enquiry. Niall Dixon ( Chief Executive and Registrar of the General Medical Council ), Katerina Kolvya ( Assistant Director of Nursing and Midwifery Policy at the Nursing and Midwifery Council ) - to name but two - have already given evidence. Their main concerns :- whether language requirements for professionals who work in a country whose language is not in their native tongue need to be strengthened, GMC plans to introduce a language testing scheme, and gaps in current regulations.
* In July the GMC hosted a meeting of medical regulators from 17 European countries and the European Commission to discuss the EU Directive on recognition of professional qualifications. Here also language competence of doctors and registration processes were discussed.
* In April MPs called for urgent changes to overseas doctors vetting schemes providing out-of-hours GP care in the UK. Of course the Government should have acted sooner to press for change to the relevant EU Directive, enabling the GMC to test the clinical competence of doctors, and the NMC to do the same for nurses, and to undertake testing of language skills. Who would have thought the matter is still unresolved more than a year after I drew members' attention to it ?

[Dedworth]

I don't know if you know this Doc - Doc ? Ian Mahady

In the Mails readers comments he points out that Winston is as slippery as many politicians :-

As always Lord Winston is about 20 years out of date. When myself and other colleagues who were Examiners for the General Medical Council Professional and Linguistics Assessment Board pointed out that allowing doctors from EEC countries free access to jobs in the NHS, even if they had no knowledge of English, was dangerous, Lord Winston and his Labour Party colleagues were significantly silent on the matter and as a result we had the situation he is now complaining about in the Nursing profession. Why do politicians never listen to the professionals at the work face?
- DR Ian W Mahady, Shanghai, 8/9/2011 23:23

Another interesting post in the Mail from a Healthcare Professional :-

When I worked as a Registered Nurse in France I had to present myself to the regional registration board with my certificate. Only after a lengthy conversation in French, including a questioning of my medical knowledge was I given a reciprocal certificate of registration and allowed to work. WHY can we not do something similar. The sick and vulnerable of this nation deserve better than to have poorly trained "nurses" with limited command of the English language looking after them. How do these people form part of a team and carry out medical staff's instructions if they don't understand what is said to them. The sooner we leave the EU the better.

- K W Boyle, Bath Somerset, 9/9/2011 16:58

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2035316/Lord-Winstons-stark-warning-NHS-workers-Romania-Bulgaria.html#ixzz1XU4z5fkv

[KeithD]

You're all out of order... we should embrace our European brethren and culture and learn all the languages within our happy community :grouphug: .... it shouldn't take that long for us all to be bilingual if we put our minds to it ... we'd only have to learn:

Official language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language)(s)
Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language)
Czech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_language)
Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_language)
Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language)
English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language)
Estonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language)
Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language)
French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language)
German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language)
Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)
Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language)
Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Language)
Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language)
Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language)
Lithuanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language)
Maltese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language)
Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language)
Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language)
Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language)
Slovak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_language)
Slovene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_language)
Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language)
Swedish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language)

Semi-Official language(s)
Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language)
Galician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_language)
Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language)
Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic)
Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language)

Minority language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_language)(s)
Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Language) (Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union#cite_note-0))
Asturian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturian_language) (Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal))
Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_Language) (Ceuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta) [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union#cite_note-1))
Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language) (Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania))
Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages) (Melilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla))
Breton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language) (France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France))
Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language) (Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy))
Cornish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language) (United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom))
Corsican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsican_language) (France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy))
Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language) (Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary))
Cypriot Maronite Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_Maronite_Arabic) (Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus))
Frisian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages) (Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany))
Friulian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language) (Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy))
Galician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_language) (Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain))
Kashubian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubian_language) (Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland))
Lower Sorbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Sorbian_language) (Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany))
Luxembourgish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourgish_language) (Luxembourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg))
Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language) (Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union#cite_note-2))
Meänkieli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me%C3%A4nkieli) (Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden))
Occitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language) (France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain))
Romani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language) (Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), Czech Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic), Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania), Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia), Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden))
Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language) (Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia), Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania))
Rusyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyn_language) (Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania))
Sami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages) (Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland), Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden))
Sardinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language) (Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy))
Sassarese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassarese_language) (Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy))
Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic) (United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom))
Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language) (Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary))
Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) (Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus))
Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language)(Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania))
Upper Sorbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Sorbian_language) (Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany))
Walloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language) (Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium))
Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language) (United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom))
Yiddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish) (Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania), Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden))

[Terpe]

Dedworth, you are completely right to raise to this issue and you are completely right in all you have said.
My wife is not a nurse but she is connected to the care organisations. She has constantly been under scrutiny about her performance and especially her competency for communication in English. Yet, in the very same organisations EU citizens are NOT required to demonstrate any competency for communication in English. In fact many really struggle to know what to do.
I have many many stories from my wife that would horrify almost all members here.

I have written letters and sent many e-mails to my local MP, to the CEO of our Primary Care Trust, to the Director of Adult Social Care and to Andrew Lansley (Secretary of State for Health) to Paul Burstow (Minister of State for Care Services)
This has been on-going and I have NEVER received any satisfactory response.
ALWAYS the blame is put against EU regulations. Well I think this is just a lame excuse because no-one wants to take any risks in contravening EU regulations. Whilst at the same time allowing contraventions of human decency and common b****y sense.

Most of our elected government representatives have no idea what to do, and no motivation to find out.

If anyone is really interested to research, you may find that there is a big big difference between the rights of EU citizens in UK and the rights of UK citizens in UK. That is unforgivable in any sense of the word IMHO

I would strongly urge all to write and complain and seek answers why.
The response (if any) you will get will cause you to be amazed, surprised and eventually disappointed beyond belief.

Sorry for the rant, some things make my blood boil. This is one of them.
Especially when it leads to humiliation of my wife. (Notice I did not say discrimination!! but it's the same thing for us)

[Sim11UK]

If anyone is really interested to research, you may find that there is a big big difference between the rights of EU citizens in UK and the rights of UK citizens in UK. That is unforgivable in any sense of the word IMHO

Off topic, but visa fees springs to mind. :rolleyes:

[stevewool]

yep all of them :NoNo:

[Terpe]

Off topic, but visa fees springs to mind. :rolleyes:

May be off-topic but very true.
Then compare how easy for EU citizens to live and work in UK against UK citizens opportunities in other EU states.

[joebloggs]

May be off-topic but very true.
Then compare how easy for EU citizens to live and work in UK against UK citizens opportunities in other EU states.

not only EU citizens terpe but their family, whether European or not can not be restricted from working, it's :crazy: that a filipina married to a Brit has to take IELTS and Plab exams, yet a non Brit EU citizen's filipina wife doesn't if they come to the Uk :crazy:

as i said b4 its up to the trust to check EU docs are qualified and can speak English at a acceptable level , but all doctors should be registered with the GMC, its not only if your qualified and can speak English at a good level, but they ask for a certificate of good standing as well as other checks before you can register.

also to register with the GMC you need an acceptable primary medical qualification and it has to be awarded by an institution listed on the Avicenna Directory for Medicine

[Doc Alan]

Dedworth, you are completely right to raise to this issue and you are completely right in all you have said.


I have written letters and sent many e-mails to my local MP, to the CEO of our Primary Care Trust, to the Director of Adult Social Care and to Andrew Lansley (Secretary of State for Health) to Paul Burstow (Minister of State for Care Services)
This has been on-going and I have NEVER received any satisfactory response.
ALWAYS the blame is put against EU regulations.
Ded may be right, but it would be polite - and good communication skills - to recognise that I raised the issue over a year ago :doh.
Doctors and nurses with more influence than me are doing their best to improve matters. The comment in the Daily Mail by a relatively unknown obstetrician / gynaecologist in Shanghai criticising Lord Winston is unhelpful !
As for your own attempts to obtain a satisfactory response, you have my sympathy, and admiration for trying :xxgrinning--00xx3:.

[grahamw48]

May one enquire as to why our learned friends at the BMA/GMC did not anticipate the blatantly obvious, and prevent this disgraceful situation from occurring in the first place ? :NoNo:

THEY are supposed to be the experts, and presumably are the ones who set the standards.

As for the medical profession's staff needs, they should give priority to the children of THIS country. OUR children ! :angry:

I am tired of this politically-correct clap-trap, especially when we are the only country damned stupid enough to throttle ourselves with it. :cwm23:

[Dedworth]

Ded may be right, but it would be polite - and good communication skills - to recognise that I raised the issue over a year ago :doh.
Doctors and nurses with more influence than me are doing their best to improve matters. The comment in the Daily Mail by a relatively unknown obstetrician / gynaecologist in Shanghai criticising Lord Winston is unhelpful !
As for your own attempts to obtain a satisfactory response, you have my sympathy, and admiration for trying :xxgrinning--00xx3:.

Apologies - I'd not searched the archives and seen you'd raised it 12 months before but many topics have the habit of repeatedly re-appearing, we'd be here all night if a full archive search was a requirement before posting or not. I raised this on the basis of a recent statement made by Winston in the House of Lords and its subsequent report in the Mail, Telegraph, Express etc.

Is Doctor Mahady that unknown ? he claims to be one or link himself to former Examiners of the General Medical Council Professional and Linguistics Assessment Board

He's mentioned in Hansard after being removed from his consultant post which following a protest by 20 other consultants resulted in the Hospitals Medical Director being reduced to the ranks

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1994/nov/28/burnley-health-care-trust

Speaking English, Danish, French and German himself Dr Mahady seems fairly well qualified to comment on the subject of Eastern European health workers with a less than decent grasp of the English language :)

[Doc Alan]

May one enquire as to why our learned friends at the BMA did not anticipate the blatantly obvious, and prevent this disgraceful situation from occurring in the first place ? :NoNo:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ! The BMA is a trade union, and the GMC sets standards.
I can't be expected to have the answers - or take responsibility - for every aspect of health in the UK and Philippines. It's not why I joined the forum.

[joebloggs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596

Niall Dickson, chief executive of the GMC, said: "On the general issue of doctors coming to work here from the European Union, the GMC remains extremely concerned that the current arrangements do not provide patients with the protection they need.

"Patient safety must come first and we need to plug the gaping hole in our current procedures."

Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said he was working to ensure foreign staff have the right language skills.

"I am working closely with the GMC to ensure that foreign healthcare professionals are not allowed to work in the NHS unless they have proven their competence and language skills."

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes :doh

[Doc Alan]

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes :doh
Completely agree :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[grahamw48]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ! The BMA is a trade union, and the GMC sets standards.
I can't be expected to have the answers - or take responsibility - for every aspect of health in the UK and Philippines. It's not why I joined the forum.

Not directed at you personally Doc...just 'thinking aloud'. ;)

Naturally I meant the the 'responsible' body - ie GMC, which I hadn't had time to google mid-rant. :)

[stevewool]

wow i am just so glad i live in my bubble protected from whats going on outside my wallet

[lastlid]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes :doh
:xxgrinning--00xx3:Bang on.

[Dedworth]

EU Law is to blame but so is our Govt in kowtowing to the Eurocrats. Other nations only accept the Euro rules that suit them. I heard a radio phone in today where Spain and Greece were specifically mentioned as having stringent language tests for all medical staff regardless of country of origin

[branno]

ok ... wots really worse than this... britain is donating more than 70 million pounds in the form of foreign aid to a south african country on the brink of starvation.. while at the same time stripping it of its most precious recource.. skilled nurses .

[Dedworth]

Foreign Doctors (including those from EU to face English Language tests - about time - worryingly no mention of Nurses or other frontline staff

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15164373

Doctors with a poor grasp of English will be prevented from working for the NHS in the future, Health Secretary Andrew Lansley has said.

He told the Conservative Party conference that GPs would be vetted to ensure they had adequate language skills and could communicate properly.

This follows the death of a man treated by a German locum GP in 2008.

Mr Lansley said the move was evidence of his "absolute commitment" to guarantee patient safety.

He also promised to reduce bureaucracy and spending on management consultants.

The pledge on language skills, which applies to the NHS in England, comes after the case of Daniel Ubani, a German locum doctor who gave 70-year-old David Gray a fatal painkiller overdose on his first and only shift in Britain in February 2008.

Investigations found Dr Ubani had been rejected for work in Leeds because of his poor English skills.

A UK coroner recorded a verdict of unlawful killing and accused Dr Ubani of gross negligence.
GMC powers

The GP was given a suspended sentence in Germany for death by negligence but has still been able to practise there.

In his speech, Mr Lansley said proficient language skills were equally as important as proper medical qualifications when it came to doctors being able to practise in England.

The rules will be changed to ensure that NHS officials have a duty to check the English language skills of all new foreign doctors before they can be employed, and the General Medical Council will be empowered to take action against doctors when there are concerns about their ability to speak English.

"This is not about discriminating," Mr Lansley said. "We have always appreciated how much overseas doctors and nurses give to our NHS.

"It is simply about our absolute commitment to put patient safety first. We will change the law to ensure that any doctor from overseas who does not have a proper level of English will not be able to treat patients in our NHS."

Doctors who want to work in the UK have to be registered with the GMC.

Currently, only those from outside the European Economic Area are routinely checked for language skills.
'Upheaval'

The GMC's chief executive, Niall Dickson, said Mr Lansley's announcement was "good news for patients".

He added: "Until today we had a glaring hole in our regulatory defences. The government has now signalled this will be closed so that doctors coming from the European Union can communicate to the standard required of all other doctors on our register."

But for Labour, shadow health secretary John Healey cited an open letter signed by more than 400 doctors and health specialists to the House of Lords urging peers to reject the controversial Health and Social Care Bill in a vote later this month.

"Patients and NHS staff can already see long waits returning and their services being cut back, as £2bn gets blown on an upheaval that no one wants and no one voted for," he said.

"Andrew Lansley and David Cameron are both in denial about the scale of opposition to the plans, and together they have failed to show that they are listening to the ever expanding chorus of concern about the Tories' wasteful reorganisation of the NHS."

[grahamw48]

I never considered myself particularly bright, but observing the group-dimwittedness of the people who are supposed to be running this country truly astonishes me. :NoNo:

[Doc Alan]

More than a third of doctors on the GMC medical register qualified outside the UK, a quarter of them from Europe. There's no shortage of British students wanting to study medicine, but the present reality is that the NHS relies on medics from overseas. It's only right, therefore, that the European Commission has stated - not before time - that language tests are legal for ALL doctors before GMC registration.
Of course this should also apply to nurses - it's not as if the NMC ( Nursing and Midwifery Council ) has not already made this point to the Government. If only that was the only problem facing the nursing profession right now ! Sadly, the country now has graduate nurses who have spent too much time in the classroom, are too posh to wash patients and too qualified to care; no SEN's ( State Enrolled Nurses ); and health care assistants doing " hands - on " nursing tasks. Most nurses still do an excellent job, but the NMC is not responsible for health care assistants and doesn't even know how many there are. Qualified nurses and health care assistants have a high level of stress at work, uncertain career prospects, and financial worries. The NHS needs to recruit the right people into nursing, with ability to speak English only one of the necessary skills.
As for Mr. Lansley's healthcare reforms - which are already being implemented - the Government claims that they have the backing of the health professions. Today's open letter from 400 health experts published in the Daily Telegraph clearly says they do not, neither do they have the public's support. Why ? They list " marketisation and commercialisation fragmenting patient care, risks to patient safety, erosion of medical ethics and trust, and wasting money ", among other reasons.
I guess most members just want the best health service possible, and find the proposed reforms hard to understand. Doctors, nurses, and other front line professionals - wherever they trained - must be regulated and communicate effectively. Leaders in these professions have certainly communicated loud and clear to the politicians. Forcing through these reforms is at best risky, and at worst reckless.

[grahamw48]

This all started when competition and 'business management' were introduced into the NHS in order to supposedly cut costs and (euphemism) 'streamline' services IMO.

I'm sorry, but competition and commercial-type practices and the caring professions just do not mix !

Yes, we need to have as inexpensive and efficient a health service as possible, but personally I would aim to achieve these ends by preventative measures and STRICTLY controlling the availability of services which are currently free of charge.

For a start, ALL time-wasting drunkards and other fools who use so much of the resources of A & E will be made to PAY for their transport and treatment. :angry:

The next of kin of helpless old people should be tracked down and either billed for their care or instructed to take the relation home with them.

People can afford £50,000 cars and holidays abroad, but will not take responsibility for their own parents' welfare. :NoNo:

[Dedworth]

For a start, ALL time-wasting drunkards and other fools who use so much of the resources of A & E will be made to PAY for their transport and treatment. :angry:

The next of kin of helpless old people should be tracked down and either billed for their care or instructed to take the relation home with them.

I wouldn't charge them but just hose all the binge drinkers and brawlers down then shove them in a skip outside A & E

[grahamw48]

Agreed...after they've been given the BILL. :cwm23:

[Dedworth]

Agreed...after they've been given the BILL. :cwm23:

2nd thoughts your're quite right Graham charge the scrotes first

[Doc Alan]

Foreign Doctors (including those from EU to face English Language tests - about time - worryingly no mention of Nurses or other frontline staff

Well done for noting this, Ded :xxgrinning--00xx3:
The Daily Telegraph has since commented : " Mr Lansley is right to say that he will amend the Medical Act to ensure they all have a good grasp of the language. But he should not stop at doctors. In recent years, tens of thousands of foreign nurses have applied to work in British hospitals. They should not be allowed to do so unless they have a good working knowledge of English. "
Nurses from outside the EU - many from the Philippines - must demonstrate that their skills are up to standard before they can obtain work in hospitals, surgeries or care homes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council ( NMC ) needs proof of nursing in their own country in the past three years and makes them attend an intensive course in the UK. Up to a quarter ( 60,000 ) of nurses working in London are said to be foreign, with a high proportion from the Philippines, although recent cutbacks have meant fewer nursing vacancies these days. Until last year the NMC could subject nurses from the EU to the same tests, but were stopped from doing so because they were said to breach EU law on freedom of movement for workers from the continent.

[Arthur Little]

What I cannot get to grips with, IS ... :anerikke: ... if the GMC can override the EU on this crucial issue, then why can't the Nursing & Midwifery Council do likewise? :rolleyes:

[Doc Alan]

What I cannot get to grips with, IS ... :anerikke: ... if the GMC can override the EU on this crucial issue, then why can't the Nursing & Midwifery Council do likewise? :rolleyes:

The current disparity in the process for registration of EU and non-EU healthcare professionals, including nurses and midwives, was debated in the House of Lords last month.
The NMC say that it is " currently bound by EU law on the mobility of professionals, which leads to a less robust registration process for EU nurses and midwives ".

EU Directive 2005/36/EC Mutual Recognition of Professional Qualifications:
prevents us ( NMC ) from testing basic language competency,
contains no requirements for continuous professional development
and the rules on automatic recognition are based on minimum EU training standards that were set in the 1970s.
The current process presents a risk to patient safety, with concerns over EU nurses and midwives' language competence and knowledge of modern nursing standards.
Conversely, nurses and midwives from outside the EU must take the International English Language Test (IELTS) and are required to undertake the Overseas Nurses (or adaptation to Midwifery) Programme, a 20 day course with a three to six month period of supervised practice.

Hopefully all this means that things are about to change also for the nurses - the sooner the better :doh.

[grahamw48]

EU membership (as I anticipated) has brought nothing but problems, ongoing hassle and permanent national security issues to this country and its citizens. :cwm23:

Thank god we didn't adopt the Euro. :NoNo: