Spousal Visa refused

[bigmarco]

Unfortunately my wifes application for a spousal visa has been refused.
She has read the refusal to me over the phone to me and understandably she is distraught.
Unbelievably it appears to me that the ECO has not studied our supporting documents. He states that I have never been to the Philippines, when we provided proof that I have been there twice. The proof consisted of my Passport and Photos of us in Manila and Boracay aswell as Tickets and Hotel bookings. Incidentally I got married in Manila so we also submitted all the relevant marriage documents aswell as some of our wedding photos and of course I would have attended the British embassy to get my CNI.
He mentions the close proximity of my divorce to our marriage. My wife left me for another man some time ago but I only filed for divorce when I had fallen in love with someone and wanted to marry them.
He mentions the abandonment of my wifes son which is tosh. Her son will be with her Parents and be well provided for and in all probability will join us once Mum has settled. He mentions the childs father who she hasn't seen since Birth and who has never seen his son. There was no question relating to him on the application.
He mentions accomodation when I provided a supporting letter from my mother that we will be staying with her in her 3 bedroom home where nobody else lives. I provided proof of her ownership of the property.
I'm really at a loss here as I really dont know what else I can provide these people. I have provided proof of income in the form of payslips bank statements and 3 P60's proof that I send her money proof of online contact for over a year proof of purchase of an engagement ring proof of marriage and proof of my 2 visits to the philippines.
What else can I do ?
Should I submit another letter?
Would it help if I fly over there?
Incidentally my wife hired an attorney at a considerable cost to help submit our application and that appears to have been a waste of money although 50% of his fee is based on getting a visa.
I would welcome and advice from our resident experts before we submit the appeal as my wife is in a terrible state at the moment and I'm struggling myself at the moment.
Thanks
Mark

[Steve.r]

That is terrible Mark, I would immediately appeal and go directly to the top or whoever is in charge, what a miscarriage of an application. :cwm23::cwm23:

I am sure Terpe will be able to throw some more light on what you must do next.

[Arthur Little]

UNBELIEVABLE, Mark! I'm totally dumbfounded! :confused:

:iagree: with Steve ... you need to take this to the top level, by asking for an Entry Clearance Manager to review the ECO's decision, and Terpe is probably the person most qualified to advise you on the best way to go about it.

[Marie]

ahhhhhhhh...sorry to hear this bigmarco...thought this month is a full of congratulations in this forum .....coz we have 2 members here who just recently got their VISA approved.....yes I agree with Steve.r....Mr. Terpe and other expert here can help you what you will do next...good luck

[rusty]

Sorry to hear you have been refused.

From what you have said you should have good grounds for an appeal.

Did you include a supporting letter in your application and did you explain all your visits in that letter?

Included in the returned documents should be the information on how to appeal, also see this link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/general-info/appeals/

Good luck with your appeal.

[lastlid]

Sorry to hear the bad news. I know this doesn't help but its my personal opinion that it can depend on getting the right ECO on the right day and you have been the victim of some bad luck. On another day you would have got the visa, from what you say.

That business about not going to the Philippines is obviously a load of tosh! I kind of wonder if the trainee processed your application.

Terpe and Joe etc have performed a few miracles with advice in the past so I am sure they can help get you on the right track.

[joebloggs]

did you marry your wife on your first visit to the phils ?

need to write a letter asking for reconsideration and explain why you think each part of the refusal was wrong. and also appeal or reapply- depending on how long your prepared to wait for an appeal to finish.

[Arthur Little]

... it can depend on getting the right ECO on the right day and you have been the victim of some bad luck. On another day you would have got the visa, from what you say.

You're probably RIGHT ... but that SHOULDN'T happen! :angry:

[Arthur Little]

Puts me in mind of a (for the most part) competent learner driver failing his/her Practical test ... on the strength of the Examiner "getting out the wrong side of bed" on a particular day. :doh

[lastlid]

You're probably RIGHT ... but that SHOULDN'T happen! :angry:

Quite agree. They obviously don't have a series of cross checks or a sign off by a supervisor or something. At £810 a pop there ought to be a cross check to ensure consistency of outcome.

[Arthur Little]

At £810 a pop there ought to be a cross check to ensure consistency of outcome.

Absolutely ... :iagree: £810's a helluva lot of dosh to chuck down :REGamblMoney01HL1:the drain!

[lastlid]

Absolutely ... :iagree: £810's a helluva lot of dosh to chuck down :REGamblMoney01HL1:the drain!


Yeah. Thats 2 ipads :icon_lol:

[Arthur Little]

Yeah. Thats 2 ipads :icon_lol:

:laugher: ... that is very true ... :gp:!

[BriaNoreen]

this is very sad but im hoping you will be successful in your appeal. does that really happen? if an ECO woke up at the wrong side of the bed, you suffer the consequence?

i am a filipina engaged to a UK citizen. we are in the final process of visa application preparation. i just took my TOEIC and got a very good score; we have most of the documents ready too. and this scared me a little.

[stevie c]

Im very saddened to read of your wifes visa refusal.
This is a disgrace you have provided everything asked of you both so im sure the eco who dealt with your application must of not been thorough enough or was not experienced as anyone can see by all the documentation & proof you provided was correct & up to date.

Im sure you would win any appeal or consideration for the refusal to be overturned without hesitation.

Bigmarco my heart goes out to you & your wife at this very distressing time but im certain that you will be togther here in the uk in the very near future.

[bigmarco]

Hi Guys thanks for your support and this time.
Joe yes we did get married on my first visit although I went for a month and we did go to Boracay on our own beforehand just so I was sure what I was doing was right for us.
Joe he seems to have ignored the supporting documents. He refers to the fact that I only got divorced 4 months before I married, so what the reason I got divorced was to get married. My exwife buggered off a few years ago but I didn't rush out to get a divorce immediately. He says I have provided no proof that I ever went to philippines when I sent copies of my passport with 2 entry stamps copies of flight and hotel bookings. He refers to me having a daughter by my previous marriage when we told them I had 2 daughters who are both making their own way in life.He refers to us moving in with my mother in Mitcham when we told them we were moving in withmy mother in Brixton (mitcham is where I curretly live). I provided a letter from my mother confirming this along with proof that she owns the property. The he refers to My wife deserting her son which I find offensive and ludicrous. He will be well provided for along with her Parents and if it's right for him he will join us.
The real point I'm trying to make Joe is that he doesn't seem to have studied the application in any detail just simply come to an immediate decision.
I would be grateful for any pointers and does anybody know how long the appeal process takes.
Should I go there?
Should I contact my MP ?
I am seriously :censored: off but realise it's pointless in venting my spleen with these people because they hold the cards.

[lastlid]

this is very sad but im hoping you will be successful in your appeal. does that really happen? if an ECO woke up at the wrong side of the bed, you suffer the consequence?

i am a filipina engaged to a UK citizen. we are in the final process of visa application preparation. i just took my TOEIC and got a very good score; we have most of the documents ready too. and this scared me a little.

I think this only happens occasionally. Most of the time it seems to be fine. I guess ECOs are just human and make mistakes.......I bet whoever released Marcos result will end up getting a right "row locking" and a sore butt from his or her supervisor :xxaction-smiley-047.

[lastlid]

The real point I'm trying to make Joe is that he doesn't seem to have studied the application in any detail just simply come to an immediate decision.


Exactly. Almost like you got someone elses decision or something, like collecting the wrong baby from the maternity unit or the like.

Maybe he or she flipped a coin?

[Terpe]

bigmarco,
That's a terrible result. I'm really very so sorry to hear that.

The important thing now is to clear your mind and consider the next step(s)

If not already given the UKBA will give full written reasons for the refusal and will also give full details on how to appeal the refusal.

You do have some options:-

1. Respond with a letter requesting reconsideration of the decision. This should be done asap provided you can clearly point to the errors made by the ECO in understanding fully your supporting evidence.

2. Lodge an appeal before the indicated time limit expires

3. Submit a fresh application (advisable to wait maybe 6-10 weeks)

At this time I strongly suggest preparing a letter asking for reconsideration, however you must also lodge an appeal. Do not wait for a response to your reconsideration letter before making appeal.
The reasons are that, the request for reconsideration may not be processed before the expiry of appeal time limit. Or, the reconsideration may be reviewed bu not given in your favour, or the reconsideration may not even be looked at. (There is no obligation for the ECM/ECO to even review any direct correspondence)

You may not even wish to consider a fresh application, but I mention it only because it's an option. Furthermore it may be quicker than an appeal. No-one can say 100% for sure. But this may be the most practical approach if you feel you will be unable to prove your side.
Appeals can take considerable time, and these days they are not freely available. I don't think the cost is too much though (maybe between £100-£200)

It's very very difficult for anyone to give you any meaningful advice without having full knowledge of your circumstances, the actual wording of the refusal and details of the application and supporting evidence supplied.

Just on the basis of the information you have divulged, it appears that the ECO has cited a number of issues causing him to refuse the visa.

If you feel confident you can counter the issue raised by the ECO by highlighting the relevent parts of the supplied evidence, then just go ahead and make your letter for reconsideration. You must be totally honest with yourself on this.
If the ECO has made errors, you need to state that clearly and firmly and show the evidence was submitted.
If you feel that perhaps your supporting letter was not clear enough. Then by all means re-do that letter, but it must be based on the documentary evidence already supplied.
Reconsideration is based on the ECO making incorrect or misguided judgements.

You MUST also appeal with 28 days. Strictly speaking only the circumstances at the time of the decision can be considered at an appeal, so in principle you can't send in something that did not exist before the decision to refuse was made. Having said that there's no harm in trying if need be..It's up to the tribunal Judge.
Make sure that you use the time you have well in order to support your appeal
Now, when you send in an appeal the ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) will review the refusal decision, this is normally carried out on receipt of the appeal and before being sent to the UK. So if no action was taken on your direct letter asking for reconsideration, that process will be undertaken now.

I would also strongly suggest that you consider the issue around your case with a view to hiring a solicitor/lawyer/advisor.
Here's what they will do for you (in principle)

- Analyse your Initial application
- Check your supporting documents
- Examine your refusal letter
- Draft detailed grounds of UK Visa Appeal, giving legal reasons as to why your application should not have been refused
- Provide expert caseworker to represent you before the Immigration Judge when your Visa Appeal is heard. They would use legal arguments, case law and immigration rules and policies to present your case.

Of course you can quite simply represent yourself if you wish and you feel confident that the issues are complex.
It's not like being in a normal court and standing in front of a judge, it's much more informal, and besides they are used to dealing with the applicant's sponsors so its nowhere near as intimidating as it might sound.

As for right now, make sure you fully understand the grounds and all issues for refusal.
Re-visit the application submission and supporting letter and do try to be as honest and objective as you can. Ask yourself if you had really covered all the angles and presented a sound case. Then start to counter those points so that they can't be questioned and that that they will now become self evident in actually meeting the requirements.

You can always ask questions here for specifics.
It's important that you focus on specifics and on the facts. Sorry to be blunt but try to avoid being diverted with feelings and generalities. this is just too serious.

Try to stay positive and keep you eye on timescales.

[andy222]

This is very disturbing. I cant understand it you submitted all the proof they require. To be honest I wouldnt know what to do in your position. I think we could do with a solicitor on here. Im thinking about going down that channel myself when I apply. At least they will know where to appeal and what to do. By the way how many times can you appeal?

[bigmarco]

Thanks Terpe I am actually Trying to post the refusal here as I have received a copy from the Filipino Attorney. Unfortunately not being a computer wizz I'm having a few problems. I will try but any help be grateful.
Terpe can you tell me can I submit the letter for Reconsideration of the decision or does it have to be in my wifes name.
I have to remain positive because my wife has gone to pieces today but the more I read the refusal the more it doesn't make sense. The Filipino Attorney will be working on the appeal but in the meantime I propose to follow your suggestion and draft a letter of reconsideration obviously addressing every point in the refusal.

[rusty]

The appeal process changed on the 19th December 2011 see this link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsarticles/2011/december/67-appeal-fees

Applicants who appeal decisions dated 19 December 2011 or later from outside the UK will be required to submit their appeals directly to the First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) in Leicester and will no longer be able to send them to the visa application centre overseas that made the initial decision. For more information about this process please see the Ministry of Justice website (http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/immigration-and-asylum/first-tier/index.htm).

The appeal can be done in person or by post.

[rusty]

Im thinking about going down that channel myself when I apply.


Incidentally my wife hired an attorney at a considerable cost to help submit our application and that appears to have been a waste of money although 50% of his fee is based on getting a visa.

There is enough information and advice from this froum and its member to help with any questions you may have, we have all been through this process and its free. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[imagine]

im so sorry its sad to read your bad news, keep your chin up, you have in your favour some of the best help and advise on this forum,
i wish you all the luck with your appeal, by what i read its a terrible error on their part, its a disgrace to mess up the feelings of genuine people,in this way.
its a mistake and therefore you should win any appeal ,
my thoughts go out to you,

[BriaNoreen]

My fiancee Noreen [this is Brian here] just alerted me about this case and it makes for very disturbing reading.

What is disturbing is not the refusal per se - that is indeed unpleasant - but the main concern is the sheer inconsistency, poor application of law, lack of transparency and outright vicious arbitrariness of this case. Was it a North Korean Commissar who made the decision? Or a British Citizen or worker performing his duties diligenty and applying the law without prejudice?

The evidence clearly has not been considered - and the ECO therefore has lied about the evidence, and his decision is subsequently a lie and a breach of your rights [as well as slander against both of you - for you are being accused of lying despite honest and clear evidence!].

A few key points for your case:

It is completely irrelevant whether the ECO got out of the wrong side of the bed. He has his duties to perform under work and social contract. Duty precedes whim otherwise there is no fair justice. Imagine a doctor killed a patient because he was in a bad mood? Or a soldier shot a civilian? Or a judge sentenced you to 30 years for drug dealing despite clear evidence on the contrary - simply because he didn't feel good that day.

There is clearly no cross checking to ensure consistency. A student does an exam and his work is scrutinised by TWO tutors, not one - to ensure a fair and balanced result, and all these are then statistically compared to each other, to ensure consistency [on a qualitative basis - and the qualitative and 'intuitive' is sometimes used in cases such as visa applications to discern the viability of evidence].

This has not happened here. We have an ECO who has made no evidence based decision whatsoever. If the ECO is trying to argue "I smelled a rat", a qualitative and intuitive concern about your application - due to a recent divorce - the argument is simple. The ECO's moral concerns about divorce and marriage are irrelevant. A legal concern is all that matters - it is of no consequence if he does not like your life story. All that is relevant - is the clear and honest evidence. You are entitled to marry after divorce, end of story. Is your marriage then being regarded as null and void??? What is the premise of the ECO's argument here beyond whim and resentment?

Finally - if you or I failed to be consistent and honest when making our tax returns, applying for a passport, welfare, medical assistance, giving evidence to the police, considering evidence rationally on a jury without prejudice - we have committed a criminal offense. In your case, the ECO, and the UKBA, have committed a criminal offense by failing to consider evidence in a fair manner, not being transparent, and effectively lying about your case [and slandering you is in effect, them telling lies as the evidence speaks clearly and they are lying about that]. This is very possibly a human rights case besides a case of maladministration. Your rights and dignity - and the rights and dignity of your wife - have been denigrated and curtailed on the basis of very unreasonable and arbitrary decisions.

The fee - you should be recompensed for that - and any other costs incurred from this case - as it is their malfeasance that has led to this miscarriage of justice.

Good luck and be strong!

Brian McNulty

[BriaNoreen]

Describe the problems you're having with your computer and I might be able to give a little advice.

I observe we are given very little time to appeal - which is unfair considering the vast distances involved. That is dubious and prejudiced in favour of the Ministry.

[Rory]

I am shocked at the outcome of your Visa application. From what I can make out from the information you tell us I can not see any real reason for a refusal.
I know you and your wife will be going though a lot of stress and negative thought but think positive as this sound like an complete error of judgement and they are quoting information that is Obviously wrong.

[juvyjones28]

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife's refusal mark:NoNo:. I know how you and the wife feel right now co'z I've been through it 2 times before. There were many nights when I couldn't sleep and eat after I learned about the refusal but at the end of the day I realized It's only one of GOD's trials to test us. Please tell your wife all will be okay, It was the ECO's mistake not yours. I still wonder why other people has to decide whether we will be together with our loved ones or not. Please follow the advice of what other members gave already, A letter of reconsideration might do it. Keep your head up and think positive despite of the refusal and tell the wife, 'This too shall pass'. Godbless!

[Rory]

When applying for the visa can she not go in person and the husband accompany her, this would surely be a big help or is the application always gone by post?

[grahamw48]

Very sorry to hear your bad news Marco.

Be guided by the experts on here and I'm sure everything will be resolved in a positive way for you and your loved one.

Best of luck to you both anyway. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Terpe]

Thanks Terpe I am actually Trying to post the refusal here as I have received a copy from the Filipino Attorney. Unfortunately not being a computer wizz I'm having a few problems. I will try but any help be grateful.
Terpe can you tell me can I submit the letter for Reconsideration of the decision or does it have to be in my wifes name.
I have to remain positive because my wife has gone to pieces today but the more I read the refusal the more it doesn't make sense. The Filipino Attorney will be working on the appeal but in the meantime I propose to follow your suggestion and draft a letter of reconsideration obviously addressing every point in the refusal.

Your wife is the applicant and strictly speaking needs to be involved in the process. This letter is a direct communication to the ECM. It is not a formal or official route and as I said before, the ECM/ECO is not obliged to review it. Please have your wife sign the letter.

Also please do not forget that the appeal must be done within time constraints.
Did your wife already receive the UKBA appeals documents and instructions?

In my posting I mentioned consideration be given to utilising the services of a professional. Only you can be the judge of that after you have balanced the grounds for refusal with the submitted application. If it's clearly an error on the part of the ECO then you could manage without engaging a professional. There are lots of experienced and willing helpers here in the forum.

Just my personal opinion, but I very much doubt that a local lawyer/advisor in Phils has the experience, caselaw or immigration knowledge to be able to handle this for you. I could be totally wrong but it's my feeling and I felt I needed to explain that.

Use all the members on this forum. It's the range and diversity of knowledge that make it so great.

[lastlid]

Just my personal opinion, but I very much doubt that a local lawyer/advisor in Phils has the experience, caselaw or immigration knowledge to be able to handle this for you. I could be totally wrong but it's my feeling and I felt I needed to explain that.



Exactly, as its UK law and not Philippine law that you would be dealing with Marco.

[grahamw48]

Agreed.

No Filipino 'fixer' can do anything with this.

It is UK-based.

[iamghee]

I felt sad upon reading this thread, your wife should have been at least given a chance to be interviewed. I wanna share my mum's experience who is a british subject now and has been living in the UK for over 6 years. I think she kind of have the same situation with your wife, my mum also applied for a spouse visa initially but had to go thru an interview because my mum planned to leave my half-brother with my guidance, me being the eldest among the 3 siblings, my stepbrother was only 4 years old at that time when my mum left together with my sister who was 17years old at that time and had qualified as dependent to my mum, while I was already 20years old during that time and couldn't apply anymore as dependent unlike my sister. My half-brother is not biologically the son of my british stepdad which may be one of the reasons as well why my mum had to be interviewed, and apart from that, my stepdad didn't have healthy financial statements as well but because my mum is very witty and she knows what she was going to reason out and that she carefully reviewed all the papers she submitted, she eventually got the visa for her and my sister. After a few years, when she was already settled in the UK, she came back to the Philippines and applied settlement for my half-brother who is also now in the UK, studying and will be in high school soon. It's just sad really when you pay a huge amount of money and only get turned down in the end. Appeal takes forever I know because I've been thru it before and only lost in the end after months of hearing in the UK. However, I am wishing that you both win this battle and keep praying. God Bless :)

[Iani]

Absolutely unbelievable!

I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but can only say good luck and to hang in there as others have said.

Really hope this can all be resolved. It's disgusting :cwm23:

[andy222]

Hi Guys thanks for your support and this time.
Joe yes we did get married on my first visit although I went for a month and we did go to Boracay on our own beforehand just so I was sure what I was doing was right for us.
Joe he seems to have ignored the supporting documents. He refers to the fact that I only got divorced 4 months before I married, so what the reason I got divorced was to get married. My exwife buggered off a few years ago but I didn't rush out to get a divorce immediately. He says I have provided no proof that I ever went to philippines when I sent copies of my passport with 2 entry stamps copies of flight and hotel bookings. He refers to me having a daughter by my previous marriage when we told them I had 2 daughters who are both making their own way in life.He refers to us moving in with my mother in Mitcham when we told them we were moving in withmy mother in Brixton (mitcham is where I curretly live). I provided a letter from my mother confirming this along with proof that she owns the property. The he refers to My wife deserting her son which I find offensive and ludicrous. He will be well provided for along with her Parents and if it's right for him he will join us.
The real point I'm trying to make Joe is that he doesn't seem to have studied the application in any detail just simply come to an immediate decision.
I would be grateful for any pointers and does anybody know how long the appeal process takes.
Should I go there?
Should I contact my MP ?
I am seriously :censored: off but realise it's pointless in venting my spleen with these people because they hold the cards.

What was the guys name marco who refused your application? I think he must have been pi**ed from reading this.

[Dedworth]

This is a disgrace you wonder what if any qualifications the muppet has if he can't get it into his thick head that you've been out there. What the hell has the timing of your divorce got to do with it :angry:

I would book an appointment to go and see your MP at his/her next local surgery. As others have said this forum will be full of invaluable advice - I can't comment as my Mrs was already over here on a Nurse's work permit.

Good luck and don't let it get you down - I'd be thinking of wrecking the idiots job prospects once things are sorted.

[andy222]

I think what ps you off the most is marcos wife has passed the english test (which is not cheap when you add up all the expenses i.e overnight stays and the review centre like I have found out). Many in this country have not had to do that. Then preparing all the correct documentation Which you go over a number of times to check that it is correct. And then you get a dip..... refuse it. To tell you the truth I am dreading it. But keep your chin up marco and tell your wife not to worry. It looks like you have a good case.

[lastlid]

I'd be thinking of wrecking the idiots job prospects once things are sorted.

I was wondering if the guilty ECO had just quit and this was his or hers parting effort on the last day.

[Dedworth]

I was wondering if the guilty ECO had just quit and this was his or hers parting effort on the last day.

You do wonder - from what Marco's said they're not fit to be in any job let alone a "public servant" thats why I'd be banging my fist on the MP's desk and questioning the characters suitability as an ECO - a letter from him to the Minister would give them all a whole lot of aggro they could do without.

[joebloggs]

Hi Guys thanks for your support and this time.
Joe yes we did get married on my first visit although I went for a month and we did go to Boracay on our own beforehand just so I was sure what I was doing was right for us.
Joe he seems to have ignored the supporting documents. He refers to the fact that I only got divorced 4 months before I married, so what the reason I got divorced was to get married. My exwife buggered off a few years ago but I didn't rush out to get a divorce immediately. He says I have provided no proof that I ever went to philippines when I sent copies of my passport with 2 entry stamps copies of flight and hotel bookings. He refers to me having a daughter by my previous marriage when we told them I had 2 daughters who are both making their own way in life.He refers to us moving in with my mother in Mitcham when we told them we were moving in withmy mother in Brixton (mitcham is where I curretly live). I provided a letter from my mother confirming this along with proof that she owns the property. The he refers to My wife deserting her son which I find offensive and ludicrous. He will be well provided for along with her Parents and if it's right for him he will join us.
The real point I'm trying to make Joe is that he doesn't seem to have studied the application in any detail just simply come to an immediate decision.
I would be grateful for any pointers and does anybody know how long the appeal process takes.
Should I go there?
Should I contact my MP ?
I am seriously :censored: off but realise it's pointless in venting my spleen with these people because they hold the cards.

you only met once when you married, thou you only need to have met but with your recently divorce maybe they think you have rushed into it, but what business is it of theirs ?

if you can scan or type the refusal lette it would help, looks like they thrown everything except the kitchen sink at you :NoNo:

[grahamw48]

Exactly.

What business IS IT of theirs ? :cwm23:

Their business is to properly DO THEIR JOB and properly check the documents....not make spurious moral judgements.

This would NEVER be tolerated by or expected of couples getting married in this country...if they bothered to get married...or even get a bloody job before squeezing out kids. :NoNo:

[bigmarco]

Hopefully I've managed to upload a copy of their decision.

[lastlid]

My fiancee Noreen [this is Brian here] just alerted me about this case and it makes for very disturbing reading.

What is disturbing is not the refusal per se - that is indeed unpleasant - but the main concern is the sheer inconsistency, poor application of law, lack of transparency and outright vicious arbitrariness of this case. Was it a North Korean Commissar who made the decision? Or a British Citizen or worker performing his duties diligenty and applying the law without prejudice?

The evidence clearly has not been considered - and the ECO therefore has lied about the evidence, and his decision is subsequently a lie and a breach of your rights [as well as slander against both of you - for you are being accused of lying despite honest and clear evidence!].

A few key points for your case:

It is completely irrelevant whether the ECO got out of the wrong side of the bed. He has his duties to perform under work and social contract. Duty precedes whim otherwise there is no fair justice. Imagine a doctor killed a patient because he was in a bad mood? Or a soldier shot a civilian? Or a judge sentenced you to 30 years for drug dealing despite clear evidence on the contrary - simply because he didn't feel good that day.

There is clearly no cross checking to ensure consistency. A student does an exam and his work is scrutinised by TWO tutors, not one - to ensure a fair and balanced result, and all these are then statistically compared to each other, to ensure consistency [on a qualitative basis - and the qualitative and 'intuitive' is sometimes used in cases such as visa applications to discern the viability of evidence].

This has not happened here. We have an ECO who has made no evidence based decision whatsoever. If the ECO is trying to argue "I smelled a rat", a qualitative and intuitive concern about your application - due to a recent divorce - the argument is simple. The ECO's moral concerns about divorce and marriage are irrelevant. A legal concern is all that matters - it is of no consequence if he does not like your life story. All that is relevant - is the clear and honest evidence. You are entitled to marry after divorce, end of story. Is your marriage then being regarded as null and void??? What is the premise of the ECO's argument here beyond whim and resentment?

Finally - if you or I failed to be consistent and honest when making our tax returns, applying for a passport, welfare, medical assistance, giving evidence to the police, considering evidence rationally on a jury without prejudice - we have committed a criminal offense. In your case, the ECO, and the UKBA, have committed a criminal offense by failing to consider evidence in a fair manner, not being transparent, and effectively lying about your case [and slandering you is in effect, them telling lies as the evidence speaks clearly and they are lying about that]. This is very possibly a human rights case besides a case of maladministration. Your rights and dignity - and the rights and dignity of your wife - have been denigrated and curtailed on the basis of very unreasonable and arbitrary decisions.

The fee - you should be recompensed for that - and any other costs incurred from this case - as it is their malfeasance that has led to this miscarriage of justice.

Good luck and be strong!

Brian McNulty

Excellent posting. I would like to think that Marco got his money back. Diabolical considering the financial outlay.

[tone]

Hi Mate
I am sorry to hear this - shocking is an understatement.

As you used some legal representation, can I ask - did you tick the box that asks about using an agency or solicitor to prepare your case work?

We used a Visa company for my Wife's applicaton, and they advised us not to tick this box - the exact reason I cannot remember but it had a negative impact on previous applications so they always advised not to tick that particular box.

Other than that as suggested it shouldnt hurt to explain the facts surrounding your divorce and subsequent marriage, sounds like they have thrown a number of spurious issues to pad out the refusal, which reading your posts sounds like a joke.

Good luck with the appeal and hope the guys here can guide you through the intracate elements!

Tone

[bigmarco]

Thanks guys for all your support it really is humbling. It's amazing what a difference 24 hours can make. When we got the email from VFS we were in a celebratory mood checking the price of flights and making plans as I have 2 weeks off work the week after next and then the bombshell arrives.
We'll just have to put the celebrations on hold for a while and set about righting this wrong.
In my honest opinion I really cant believe that the application was studied properly as there are quite obvious mistakes in his refusal.
We put alot of effort into the application and submitted a hell of a lot of supporting documents photographs and personal letters in support from both myself and my mother. There were nearly 50 guests at our wedding and we had a professional photographer taking our pictures. Some of these pictures were submitted. I know there was no problem with my financial situation and he clearly hasn't mentioned that.
If only these people would speak to you before these decisions and they would realise we have nothing to hide and no lies to tell.

[lastlid]

Hi Mate
I am sorry to hear this - shocking is an understatement.

As you used some legal representation, can I ask - did you tick the box that asks about using an agency or solicitor to prepare your case work?

We used a Visa company for my Wife's applicaton, and they advised us not to tick this box - the exact reason I cannot remember but it had a negative impact on previous applications so they always advised not to tick that particular box.

Other than that as suggested it shouldnt hurt to explain the facts surrounding your divorce and subsequent marriage, sounds like they have thrown a number of spurious issues to pad out the refusal, which reading your posts sounds like a joke.

Good luck with the appeal and hope the guys here can guide you through the intracate elements!

Tone

Interesting what you say Tone, as i used a UK government approved Immigration Advisor and they were the complete opposite. The top page submitted had the advisors name and company plastered all over it. She then quoted some sections / sub sections of immigration law. Then our docs followed. My wife submitted the docs in that order. When she had finished one was left with the opinion that the ECO would have to come up with a jolly good reason to refuse the application. We did tick that box.

[juvyjones28]

The Decision

You propose to join your husband in London. He divorced in June 2011 and married you 4 months later. You have submitted no evidence of any photos, passport page photocopies or similar evidence that this man has ever been in the Philippines. You live with your 8 year old son and appear to be abandoning him to move permanently to the UK. You have not mentioned your son or how he will be cared for in any of your supporting documentation. You have not told me about his father. Your husband has a child from his first marriage. Given these facts and that I have seen no evidence that you and this man have ever met in person. I am not satisfied on balance that your application meets the requirements of paragraph 281.

You propose to live with your husband and his mother in Mitcham. You have submitted no independently variable evidence of the property you propose to inhabit such as a Property Inspection Report (PIR). I am therefore not satisfied that you meet the requirements of paragraph 281.

I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied on the balance probabilities that you meet all of the requirements of the relevant Paragraph of the United Kingdom Immigration Rules.

[juvyjones28]

I retyped it Mark so others can see clearly what stated on your wife's refusal notice.

I agree that there are mistakes with the ECO's decision. :(

[lastlid]

Just read it Juvy. Cheers. Disgusting service eh!

[Dedworth]

I wonder what the reaction would be if you wrote to the UKBA demanding a refund of fees within 14 days citing ineptitude then hit them with a county court action

" You have submitted no evidence of any photos, passport page photocopies or similar evidence that this man has ever been in the Philippines."

[grahamw48]

Did they lose half the documents ? :Erm:

This is total crap if all information was actually supplied. :NoNo:

[tone]

Interesting what you say Tone, as i used a UK government approved Immigration Advisor and they were the complete opposite. The top page submitted had the advisors name and company plastered all over it. She then quoted some sections / sub sections of immigration law. Then our docs followed. My wife submitted the docs in that order. When she had finished one was left with the opinion that the ECO would have to come up with a jolly good reason to refuse the application. We did tick that box.

Hi Mate this is the text I got from my Visa Consultant on the topic, strange we have opposite point of views..

"Dear Sir Tony,

About the visa consultancy, as per experience sir most entry clearance officers denies applicant who declares they have had help from firms like us. The trend of their thinking is that applicants who have chosen to consult with firms like us are workers seeking employment and uses settlement visas as cover up. We have had clients like this and we had to make appeals for them and it took half a year to have the application reviewed and approved. So our immigration lawyers instructed us not to declare it to avoid such hold ups specially for our clients. Given the fact that we, and Ms. Rina is from the Philippines whose reputation when it comes to foreign employment have been notorious. We can revise the application, however I wouldn't want the application be affected by the reason that ECO's might doubt the purpose of our application.
I apologies I was not able to explain it to you before. But it would be your choice Sir. I can make the revisions."

I had to go through about 60 emails to find this - hope its of value to someone....

[lastlid]

Hi Mate this is the text I got from my Visa Consultant on the topic, strange we have opposite point of views..

"Dear Sir Tony,

About the visa consultancy, as per experience sir most entry clearance officers denies applicant who declares they have had help from firms like us. The trend of their thinking is that applicants who have chosen to consult with firms like us are workers seeking employment and uses settlement visas as cover up. We have had clients like this and we had to make appeals for them and it took half a year to have the application reviewed and approved. So our immigration lawyers instructed us not to declare it to avoid such hold ups specially for our clients. Given the fact that we, and Ms. Rina is from the Philippines whose reputation when it comes to foreign employment have been notorious. We can revise the application, however I wouldn't want the application be affected by the reason that ECO's might doubt the purpose of our application.
I apologies I was not able to explain it to you before. But it would be your choice Sir. I can make the revisions."

I had to go through about 60 emails to find this - hope its of value to someone....

Yes. Didnt mean to put you through so much trouble. Amazing the variety of approaches possible. I can see the advantages of both approaches.

[bigmarco]

Thanks Juvy most helpful:xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:
Tone just to let you know that we didn't tick that box.
Graham all documents were supplied and Originals returned with refusal. Everything I said I sent was in the returned parcel.

[grahamw48]

Total nonsense refusal then. :NoNo:

[gladz]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's visa refusal bigmarco.

Be strong and goodluck in your appeal.:)

[imagine]

Quote,,, I have seen no evidence that you and this man have ever met in person:Erm:

how do they think you got married :Erm:

utter nonsence, be positive, they are 100% out of order, you will win ,
its just disgusting they have put you both through this, :NoNo:

[lastlid]

Out of interest here is the below statement from our Immigration Advisor on their headed paper. It was the start of the first page of our submission.

" Dear Sir / Madam,

I am a licensed Immigration Advisor acting on behalf of the above named individual ( Mrs Lastlid ). I am regulated by the Office of the Immigration Services Commisions (OISC) - Registration no xxxxxxx.

This application is for my client to be granted entry clearance as the spouse of a person currently present and settled in the Isle of Man. My client meets the relevant requirements as set out in paragraph 281 of the Isle of Man Immigration Rules in that she is married to a British citizen who is currently resident in the Isle of Man, the parties to the marriage have met and each etc etc etc

In support of the application the following documents are enclosed:

Etc etc etc "

Itemised list.

Signed and dated accordingly.

Evidently paragraph 281 corresponds to exactly the same paragraph in the UK equivalent on spouse visa applications.

The whole application was made in this sort of tone. And as such it was one that I felt had a bit of weight behind it. Obviously this Advisor's company was not afraid to make themselves known to the UKBA.

A sort of "we know the law, you know the law, this ones all above board so don't mess around and give us the visa" kind of approach.

[Terpe]

bigmarco,

I've read the decision letter from the ECO giving his reasons for refusal of the visa.

I read again the details you provided in connection with the application and supporting evidence.

Something appears to be very wrong here. I cannot understand why he is so convinced you have never visited the Philippines and that you have never actually met each other.

bigmarco, did you submit a good supporting letter outlining this and referencing the evidence?

There is such a huge variance in the application supporting evidence and the belief formed by the ECO that surely something has gone badly wrong.

Have you now received back all supporting documents?

Just follow the process for appeal and send a direct request for reconsideration on the basis that the supporting evidence of visit/having met/marriage etc appears not to have been reviewed/allowed. Give full details of the specific documentary evidence.

Additionally, just be sure that the accommodation side of the application did actually get covered correctly in line with requirements.

On the basis of the information in this thread, I find this refusal so strange.

[bigmarco]

Hi Terpe
I submitted what I consider a good supporting letter. I took 2 days writing it because I had learnt from this forum that it was quite important. I detailed everything about our relationship from the names of the friends who introduced us right up to our marriage and really opened my heart in the letter. I highlighted various documents that was included with the application. There was also a letter from my mother included which aswell as saying we were going to live with her also showed her support for the relationship and how she and the rest of my family were so looking forward to my wife coming.
I do find the refusal strange on the basis of the evidence we submitted and must say that I also find it offensive as he appears to have come to some strange conclusions. I would actually like to ask him what he thinks the problem is between date of divorce and date of marriage. I also think that stating my wife will be deserting her son is very nasty and she is very upset about this.
I propose to spend my weekend constructing the letter for reconsideration for the ECM and in the meantime the appeal will go ahead.
My understanding is that the appeal will be held in the UK and it will be my intention to attend if allowed.
Finally all original documents were returned with the refusal and all the documents that I have referred to in this thread were in the package.
Sadly I feel all the evidence was there but he just chose not to read it.

[joebloggs]

The Decision

You propose to join your husband in London. He divorced in June 2011 and married you 4 months later. You have submitted no evidence of any photos, passport page photocopies or similar evidence that this man has ever been in the Philippines. You live with your 8 year old son and appear to be abandoning him to move permanently to the UK. You have not mentioned your son or how he will be cared for in any of your supporting documentation. You have not told me about his father. Your husband has a child from his first marriage. Given these facts and that I have seen no evidence that you and this man have ever met in person. I am not satisfied on balance that your application meets the requirements of paragraph 281.

You propose to live with your husband and his mother in Mitcham. You have submitted no independently variable evidence of the property you propose to inhabit such as a Property Inspection Report (PIR). I am therefore not satisfied that you meet the requirements of paragraph 281.

I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied on the balance probabilities that you meet all of the requirements of the relevant Paragraph of the United Kingdom Immigration Rules.

thanks juvy :xxgrinning--00xx3:

what evidence did you submit to show you was in the philippines ?

did you mention who would be looking after the child ? did you not mention once you was settled you will be applying for a visa for him in your letter of support ?

is his father named on his birth cert ?

you can get your council or an estate agent to do the report about your moms house, did you include a copy of the deeds, land reg docs, pictures of each room a letter of support from your mom ?

[joebloggs]

Hi Terpe
I submitted what I consider a good supporting letter. I took 2 days writing it because I had learnt from this forum that it was quite important. I detailed everything about our relationship from the names of the friends who introduced us right up to our marriage and really opened my heart in the letter. I highlighted various documents that was included with the application. There was also a letter from my mother included which aswell as saying we were going to live with her also showed her support for the relationship and how she and the rest of my family were so looking forward to my wife coming.
I do find the refusal strange on the basis of the evidence we submitted and must say that I also find it offensive as he appears to have come to some strange conclusions. I would actually like to ask him what he thinks the problem is between date of divorce and date of marriage. I also think that stating my wife will be deserting her son is very nasty and she is very upset about this.
I propose to spend my weekend constructing the letter for reconsideration for the ECM and in the meantime the appeal will go ahead.
My understanding is that the appeal will be held in the UK and it will be my intention to attend if allowed.
Finally all original documents were returned with the refusal and all the documents that I have referred to in this thread were in the package.
Sadly I feel all the evidence was there but he just chose not to read it.

sorry just saw your reply, best option is to ask for a reconsideration, from what you've said it looks like the refusal would be overturned, it looks like someone was taking the :piss2: or had a really bad day :angry:

[lastlid]

....... it looks like someone was taking the :piss2: or had a really bad day :angry:

I agree.

But I still say that the relevant supervisor or an experienced colleague (if it was a trainee) should have cross checked the decision as a matter of routine. So it isn't all down to one person. This calls into question the practices actually adopted within the department. There is a lot riding on the decision for all parties involved so stiff practices on double checks ought to be the norm.

[Arthur Little]

There is a lot riding on the decision for all parties involved so stiff practices on double checks ought to be the norm.

:iagree: .. those SHOULD be carried out as a matter of course.

[lastlid]

:iagree: .. those SHOULD be carried out as a matter of course.

Correct me if I am wrong Arthur....I thought that was the essence of UK government departments?

[Arthur Little]

Correct me if I am wrong Arthur....I thought that was the essence of UK government departments?

It IS ... basically! :anerikke: Whilst fundamentally, the role of the civil servant is to implement with integrity - and to the best of his/her abiliity - government decisions channelled through the appropriate department(s) by which he/she is employed ... of no lesser importance, is the duty to ensure that the affairs of members of the public - whom he/she equally serves - are conducted sympathetically, efficiently, promptly ... and, above all, fairly.

Clearly, in Marco's case, the individual concerned has fallen short of this standard :cwm23: ... and ought to be disciplined.

[lastlid]

It IS ... basically! :anerikke: Whilst fundamentally, the role of the civil servant is to implement with integrity - and to the best of his/her abiliity - government decisions channelled through the appropriate department(s) by which he/she is employed ... of no lesser importance, is the duty to ensure that the affairs of members of the public - whom he/she equally serves - are conducted sympathetically, efficiently, promptly ... and, above all, fairly.

Clearly, in Marco's case, the individual concerned has fallen short of this standard :cwm23: ... and ought to be disciplined.

Thanks for that. I thought that would be the case. But wasn't certain if things were different in 2012. You know, young ECOs of today and all that.....:REDancedancer08::Smokin::joke::party-smiley-012::erotic4:

[stevie c]

Did they lose half the documents ? :Erm:

This is total crap if all information was actually supplied. :NoNo:

Graham that is exactly what im thinking ....... has some of the docs been mislaid or lost :Erm:

[grahamw48]

Well, apparently Marco received them all back intact, but were they all read ? :Erm:

This case really stinks, have to say.

When I see stuff like this I'm always tempted to contact brother at the FCO, but just can't do that...maybe for myself if in real trouble.

[Terpe]

Everyone makes mistakes, but when an Immigration Officer makes a mistake it has devastating impacts.
This has got to be the strangest case for me personally. How can you legally get married without meeting?
What on earth is the correlation between the date of issue of final divorce and the actual breakdown of a relationship?
Why is the ECO using language like abandonment?

On the face of it this should be an open and shut case at any actual reconsideration.
But the appeal must be lodged and the process followed.

Personally, I cannot get my head around this one.

[lastlid]

This has got to be the strangest case for me personally. How can you legally get married without meeting?


I don't know if its the same for everybody but my finger print is on our Philippine marriage certificate!! And there were 6 witnesses including the reverend. How did I do that without being there in the Philippines in person?

[lastlid]

Everyone makes mistakes, but when an Immigration Officer makes a mistake it has devastating impacts.


For me this isn't an indvidual's mistake / ineptitude / bloodymindedness. The whole system is wrong as a cross check would have picked up on the original :censored: up.

In the world of Elf and Safety this is like the swiss cheese syndrome. If all the cheese holes are lined up then the mouse just runs through to the other side (or something like that) .....or why air accidents occur.......

http://homepage.mac.com/lesposen/iblog/B80495344/C840540124/E1966059962/index.html


".....about how humans and organisations (not just aviation but nuclear plants and governments) commit errors and how such incidents can be prevented once their causes are understood. In particular, he has developed what he calls the "Swiss Cheese" model of incident occurrence."

I think it is used in the world of medicine too.

[grahamw48]

I don't know if its the same for everybody but my finger print is on our Philippine marriage certificate!! And there were 6 witnesses including the reverend. How did I do that without being there in the Philippines in person?

That's why I had photos taken of the actual marriage ceremony (with the ex).

[bigmarco]

Hi Guys
Just to confirm that I checked with the wife and all original documents have been returned. The documents prove beyond doubt that I've been to the Philippines twice. Passport, Marriage Certificate, Local CNI issued by British Embassy, Personal Photos, Professional Wedding Photos, Plane Ticket Receipts and a Hotel Receipt. I've even got a picture of me standing beside the deputy mayor of Malabon on my wedding day.
I've been driving trains all day and this :censored: can really play on your mind.
I really think whoever it was must of had a bad day I honestly cant think of anything else.
As Terpe says to use the term abandonment is disgusting. The Child will be well looked after by his Grand Parents and he goes to a lovely school and he's doing very well. When the time is right he will join us in the UK. His Mum is devoted to him.
As regards the date of divorce and the date of Marriage I cannot see what he is trying to suggest. I applied for the divorce so that we could marry and if we hadn't met and decided to Marry I probably wouldn't have rushed to divorce for no other reason than financial. My Marriage was over long before we met I just hadn't got round to making it legal.
Other points he makes in the refusal clearly show he never studied it properly. He mentions that I have a daughter when in fact we told them I have 2 daughters who are both working and not dependant on me other than a sub before pay day lol.
He then refers to my Mum living in Mitcham when infact her address is Brixton.
All in all I expect no special treatment just the same sense of fair play as everyone else expects. We have nothing to hide just another couple in love who want to spend the rest of their lives together. I have invested alot in this relationship not only financially but emotionally and I'm very sorry that some :censored: in an office in Manila doesn't approve but rest assured whatever it takes and however long it takes my wife will join me in the UK.
For the first time since this nightmare began I am actually crying now which is probably a good thing as it will make me even more determined. I will be composing a letter of reconsideration for my wife to deliver to the embassy and hopefully it works but I will also be submitting the appeal. I also intend trying to see my MP asap.
I would like to thank everyone for their kind words and great advice you are an amazing bunch. If one good thing comes from this it will be the ability to help others who God forbid find themselves in a similar situation in future.
Onwards and Upwards. I love you Mary Grace.

[lastlid]

Hi Guys
Just to confirm that I checked with the wife and all original documents have been returned. The documents prove beyond doubt that I've been to the Philippines twice. Passport, Marriage Certificate, Local CNI issued by British Embassy, Personal Photos, Professional Wedding Photos, Plane Ticket Receipts and a Hotel Receipt. I've even got a picture of me standing beside the deputy mayor of Malabon on my wedding day.
I've been driving trains all day and this :censored: can really play on your mind.
I really think whoever it was must of had a bad day I honestly cant think of anything else.
As Terpe says to use the term abandonment is disgusting. The Child will be well looked after by his Grand Parents and he goes to a lovely school and he's doing very well. When the time is right he will join us in the UK. His Mum is devoted to him.
As regards the date of divorce and the date of Marriage I cannot see what he is trying to suggest. I applied for the divorce so that we could marry and if we hadn't met and decided to Marry I probably wouldn't have rushed to divorce for no other reason than financial. My Marriage was over long before we met I just hadn't got round to making it legal.
Other points he makes in the refusal clearly show he never studied it properly. He mentions that I have a daughter when in fact we told them I have 2 daughters who are both working and not dependant on me other than a sub before pay day lol.
He then refers to my Mum living in Mitcham when infact her address is Brixton.
All in all I expect no special treatment just the same sense of fair play as everyone else expects. We have nothing to hide just another couple in love who want to spend the rest of their lives together. I have invested alot in this relationship not only financially but emotionally and I'm very sorry that some :censored: in an office in Manila doesn't approve but rest assured whatever it takes and however long it takes my wife will join me in the UK.
For the first time since this nightmare began I am actually crying now which is probably a good thing as it will make me even more determined. I will be composing a letter of reconsideration for my wife to deliver to the embassy and hopefully it works but I will also be submitting the appeal. I also intend trying to see my MP asap.
I would like to thank everyone for their kind words and great advice you are an amazing bunch. If one good thing comes from this it will be the ability to help others who God forbid find themselves in a similar situation in future.
Onwards and Upwards. I love you Mary Grace.

Nice one Marco. :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3: Your divorce circumstances are completely plausible. My divorce took a good couple of years to go through and the final date bore no relation to the initial filing of divorce. Naievity at best is a possibility here on that one. I tried to explain this one to my wife and she couldnt follow my explaination and she jumped to the same conclusion as the ECO person who wrote the rational for the refusal, but then my wife isnt familiar with UK divorce fullstop.......

[grahamw48]

You have friends on here Marco and people who understand, sharing your pain.

I'm really confident that you will come through this and that your wife will eventually have a spouse visa in her passport.

I'm wondering if your documents/application was confused with those of another applicant, so ridiculous is this case.

My ex also left her son in the Phils incidentally....with grandparents (and the daughter she hadn't told me about :rolleyes:). Didn't stop her getting a visa. :NoNo:

We later brought both of the children to the UK too.

[bigmarco]

Letter of Reconsideration now sent to the ECM and hopefully this does the trick. Regardless the appeal goes ahead.

[Dedworth]

Fingers crossed

[lastlid]

Letter of Reconsideration now sent to the ECM and hopefully this does the trick. Regardless the appeal goes ahead.

:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

:xxgrinning--00xx3: good luck

[Terpe]

Letter of Reconsideration now sent to the ECM and hopefully this does the trick. Regardless the appeal goes ahead.

Good work, well done and very best of luck.
yes, you must lodge the appeal.

[Trefor]

So sorry to hear this. Even though the documents were sent/returned perhaps they were completely ignored during the consideration process (for whatever reason). Best of luck with an appeal or re-filing.

[sars_notd_virus]

good luck:xxgrinning--00xx3: