Appeal hearing date set.

[bigmarco]

At last I have received the paperwork through and our date of appeal hearing has been set for 12th september 2012.
Having read the Entry clearance managers review of the case I am increasingly convinced that they have thrown half our supporting documents in the bin.
He says that whilst we have provided Skype logs to indicate there is some evidence of a relationship we have provided no photographs or my passport to prove we have ever met.
He then goes on to mention that it is not credible that my wife would want to leave her child behind in the circumstances.
Firstly we provided them with plenty of photographs including photographs of our wedding day.
Secondly he says we havent included my passport and yet attached to the bundle of documents for the appeal that they have just sent me is a clear copy of my passport which shows entry and exit to philippines together with my visa......This is crazy.
I'm not feeling to brave now that judgement day is approaching so I propose to seek some professional help next week.

[imagine]

it does sound like they lost your passport copy and photos, either that or they are blind,:NoNo:

it must be a nightmare for you both, my prayers for you getting this sorted

[travina]

good luck big marco. im also worried now that they might also disregard our additional supporting documents. and if that would happen to us i cant imagine my bf wont stop calling the embassy until he could speak to the ECM and ECO. he actually just sent them an email again to oblige them to answer him in a personal approach to have the ECM or ECO t as they just replied to him in a standard statement that looks like being copied and paste.

[andy222]

What a mess mate like you say I dont think they looked at half the documents. No wonder we cant find out the names of these cretins. A good lawyer will sort it out mate.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Marie]

good luck to you bigmarco...my prayers for you on this battle...God Bless

[joebloggs]

He then goes on to mention that it is not credible that my wife would want to leave her child behind in the circumstances.
.

:NoNo: many have done that on here thou :doh, once they are settled they have applied for a visa for their child, some have in fact waited til they have got ILR before they applied to bring their child here .

good luck Marco.

also if they say they didn't get a copy of your passport, then why didn't they contact your wife asking for it ? why refuse the visa without asking for it first !

[lastlid]

What do you do when they turn around and say " you didn't submit any photos " when you plainly did? How does one counter that? And the photocopy of the passport copy.

Does it become a "yes we did", "no you didnt" affair?

BTW I presume they must have the photocopies of the photos? Did they lose both the originals and the copies? I guess they could easily have binned the copies?

[Terpe]

Good luck Marco :xxgrinning--00xx3:
I'm sure all will be well.

Personally, I would definitely secure some experienced professional help with this appeal hearing.
You need someone to tear the ECM and ECO to pieces.
I know it's all extra money, but try to find from somewhere.

[grahamw48]

As regards leaving the child.....what utter nonsense. :NoNo:

Thousands upon thousands of SINGLE OFWs leave their children in the care of family members for years on end.

My ex wife (at the time of her visa application) had two children, the boy in the care of her parents and the girl in the care of the father's parents.

Dependants' visas for both weren't applied for them until 5 years later.

They are both British Citizens now.

[sars_notd_virus]

Good luck Marco:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[lastlid]

I would like to think that as soon as they receive the application papers that they scan them to avoid this kind of scenario. I am sure that it is possible that they drop, lose or even mix papers. I would hope that they don't but wouldn't be surprised if they did occasionally. By scanning them upon receipt then that kind of c0ckup could be avoided.

Good luck Marco. Not so long to go now.

[andy222]

The more I look at this the more baffled I get. I feel for you and your wife marco its a total disgrace. I would be onto my mp about this. And phoning the embassy.

[Leen]

good luck marco....

[bigmarco]

I would like to think that as soon as they receive the application papers that they scan them to avoid this kind of scenario. I am sure that it is possible that they drop, lose or even mix papers. I would hope that they don't but wouldn't be surprised if they did occasionally. By scanning them upon receipt then that kind of c0ckup could be avoided.

Good luck Marco. Not so long to go now.

The thing is Lastlid I have a nice collection of photographs all attached to A4 sheets of paper that they returned to my wife with the original refusal. They have also enclosed copies of my passport on 2 seperate sets of documents, the original set they returned and the set they sent to HMCTS for the appeal. I cannot believe that these people are really this incompetent. I'm phoning Victoria Sharkey's office tomorrow to see if they will help me as she seems to have had some favourable mentions on the forum in the past.

[lastlid]

The thing is Lastlid I have a nice collection of photographs all attached to A4 sheets of paper that they returned to my wife with the original refusal. They have also enclosed copies of my passport on 2 seperate sets of documents, the original set they returned and the set they sent to HMCTS for the appeal. I cannot believe that these people are really this incompetent.

Curiouser and curiouser. Incredible.

[bigmarco]

Curiouser and curiouser. Incredible.

Indeed Lastlid. The other thing I find laughable is their assumption that its not credible that my wife would want to leave her son behind. This is coming from a bunch of :censored: who granted a mother a visa and refused the childrens application, which was posted on here not so long ago.
Our son is doing well in school at the moment and there is no reason to disturb his life at the moment. He lives with loving grand parents and when we feel the time is right we will submit an application for him to join us.

[lastlid]

Indeed Lastlid. The other thing I find laughable is their assumption that its not credible that my wife would want to leave her son behind. This is coming from a bunch of :censored: who granted a mother a visa and refused the childrens application, which was posted on here not so long ago.
Our son is doing well in school at the moment and there is no reason to disturb his life at the moment. He lives with loving grand parents and when we feel the time is right we will submit an application for him to join us.

What is bothering me and I am sure it is bothering you too, is the question of why this hasn't been overturned at the reconsideration stage, before coming this far. Maybe they just do crazy things now and again.

And I wonder how they are going to defend their decision at the appeal hearing.

Rooting for ya Marco.

[Rory]

I am sure you will win your appeal with the information you have told us, it is a joke that you were refused in the first place.

Good luck but i do not think you will need it this time.

[brinormeg]

This really does sound awful for you both!
If it isnt stressful and difficult enough, they dont even seem to be able to see the evidence under their nose! Evidence you both probably spent hours weeks and even months collecting and organising!

This is why we are very afraid of the visa being refused...regardless if everything at our end is in order!

Yeah ok you can appeal and go to court etc but this all takes precious time and money after all the time and money it has already cost!

[bigmarco]

This really does sound awful for you both!
If it isnt stressful and difficult enough, they dont even seem to be able to see the evidence under their nose! Evidence you both probably spent hours weeks and even months collecting and organising!

This is why we are very afraid of the visa being refused...regardless if everything at our end is in order!

Yeah ok you can appeal and go to court etc but this all takes precious time and money after all the time and money it has already cost!

Totally agree with you. Yes the refusal has the financial impact in as much as I've had to travel to manila twice since being married to see my wife and various other things, but the time factor far outweighs this. Our first anniversary is fast approaching aswell as my 50th birthday and the thought of not being together for these 2 events is hard to take.
Still fingers crossed we'll get there in the end.

[brinormeg]

Yeah really do hope it all works out for you soon mate...........best of luck anyway:)

Oh and the same to everyone else who is going through this process, especially with the new rules the ukba are following.

[Arthur Little]

At last I have received the paperwork through and our date of appeal hearing has been set for 12th september 2012.

:Hellooo: Finally ... a BIG step in the RIGHT direction, my friend. Suffice to say, we ALL hope and :pray: that justice will prevail for you and Grace. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[mike1]

At last I have received the paperwork through and our date of appeal hearing has been set for 12th september 2012.
Having read the Entry clearance managers review of the case I am increasingly convinced that they have thrown half our supporting documents in the bin.
He says that whilst we have provided Skype logs to indicate there is some evidence of a relationship we have provided no photographs or my passport to prove we have ever met.
He then goes on to mention that it is not credible that my wife would want to leave her child behind in the circumstances.
Firstly we provided them with plenty of photographs including photographs of our wedding day.
Secondly he says we havent included my passport and yet attached to the bundle of documents for the appeal that they have just sent me is a clear copy of my passport which shows entry and exit to philippines together with my visa......This is crazy.
I'm not feeling to brave now that judgement day is approaching so I propose to seek some professional help next week.

We had a sucessful appeal with the help of V.S two months ago ,the issue was dependency of family member on myself . I myself thought they never looked at the application properly as the proof was there .Since then they never have got in touch with us _over 2 months ago- what a farce :cwm23: Best of luck with the appeal :)

[bigmarco]

We had a sucessful appeal with the help of V.S two months ago ,the issue was dependency of family member on myself . I myself thought they never looked at the application properly as the proof was there .Since then they never have got in touch with us _over 2 months ago- what a farce :cwm23: Best of luck with the appeal :)

Yes I phoned their offices today and had an encouraging conversation with them. I am dropping my paperwork off tomorrow. I found the conversation today and the fact that they were not at all shocked by our treatment encouraging. According to them 75% of all refusals are overturned on appeal.
Mike are you saying that despite winning your case 2 months ago you have still not received the visa.

[andy222]

Its hard work Marco but you will get there mate. Its like anything else money talks. Something needs looking at over there I doubt whether other countries have this problem and if they do we dont hear about it.

[grahamw48]

This is all about discrimination.

I'm sure there will be 'unofficial' quotas in place.

As a country, the Philippines has no hold over the UK.

Countries like India and Pakistan do, along with most other former Commonwealth nations.

A Filipino national comes well down the pecking order when applying for a visa for this country (and remember...it is your partner applying, not you).

[yellowcloud]

Marco, how long did it take for you to get an appeal date since the date of the refusal? I have heard its normally months but seems like for you it was much faster?

[tone]

Hey mate just wanted to add my :xxgrinning--00xx3: and hope everything goes as it should do.
It appears that stupidity on the side of the ECO/ECM is totally to blame!
It's a shame there is no medicine for stupidity, I'm also guessing there will be no recourse to asking for costs in any way.
Our prayers are with you.
Best of luck and more importantly hope the idiots see the light of day.

Tone

[Steve.r]

It's an utter disgrace Marco, I wish you luck and once you have got your wife here, you need to try to find out just who has been so incompetent.

I feel sure you will have no problem at the hearing. We will all be thinking of you. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Dedworth]

Good luck Marco - when it's all done and dusted will you be raising the matter with the Government Ombudsman http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/home ? It would appear that an injustice has been done and financial costs incurred due to the UKBA's inept mishandling of the application.

I've only ever had experience of the Local Govt Ombudsman where I helped an elderly lady get a drainage issue resolved - she ended up getting c £2000 compo for flood damage to her garage & garden caused by the local authorities failure to provide and maintain adequate storm drains.

[andy222]

Good call Ded I was wondering if there was anyway to get compensation?:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[mike1]

Yes I phoned their offices today and had an encouraging conversation with them. I am dropping my paperwork off tomorrow. I found the conversation today and the fact that they were not at all shocked by our treatment encouraging. According to them 75% of all refusals are overturned on appeal.
Mike are you saying that despite winning your case 2 months ago you have still not received the visa.

Yeah its well over 2 months now - 2 e mails , 2 letters ,solicitors letter and they never even acknowledged any of them, I have now got an MP involved , :doh but do not despair ,you will get there:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bigmarco]

Good luck Marco - when it's all done and dusted will you be raising the matter with the Government Ombudsman http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/home ? It would appear that an injustice has been done and financial costs incurred due to the UKBA's inept mishandling of the application.

I've only ever had experience of the Local Govt Ombudsman where I helped an elderly lady get a drainage issue resolved - she ended up getting c £2000 compo for flood damage to her garage & garden caused by the local authorities failure to provide and maintain adequate storm drains.

Agree with you Ded. I'm obviously focusing on doing whats necessary to get my wife here asap. Obviously once that has been achieved I feel it would be wrong of me to let the matter lie.
This is an injustice compounded by the fact they have already ignored an opportunity to put the matter right.
The very fact that they are forcing us to go to court makes me determined to pursue the matter further once the case is resolved.

[yellowcloud]

Marc, how long did it take for you to get your appeal hearing from the point of the refusal?

[bigmarco]

Marc, how long did it take for you to get your appeal hearing from the point of the refusal?

Hi Yellowcloud. We were refused in March and received the appeal date this week for a hearing in September.
However there was a delay of at least a month as we originally submitted our appeal to the Embassy in error. By the time we submitted our documents to HMCTS in Leicester we were late so our papers had to go before a Judge to confirm it was ok for our appeal to go ahead which caused a further delay of at least 2 weeks.

[yellowcloud]

Thanks Marc, so the reason your appeal is being heard in Feltham Middx is because its your local court? Would that be the same for anyone who appeals? ie it would be heard at their local court?

[bigmarco]

Thanks Marc, so the reason your appeal is being heard in Feltham Middx is because its your local court? Would that be the same for anyone who appeals? ie it would be heard at their local court?

I'm assuming thats the case. Although Feltham is not really local to me it's a hell of a lot closer than Leicester.

[yellowcloud]

Does anyone know how the appeal process works in simple terms as its very confusing to me?

I think I have figured it out, but please correct me



The ECO refuses the application and sends a notice to the applicant along with their supporting documents.


If the applicant has the right to an appeal, the ECO will include a form with the notification of refusal.


The applicant must fill in the form, write the new statement in defense of their protest, and along with the original supporting documents, sends everything to the court at Leicester.



At Leicester an ECM (entry clearance manager) reviews the form, application, supporting documents, statement of refusal from the original ECO, and the statement from the appealing applicant. If the ECM reverses the ECOs decision, the applicant is notified. This can take up to three months after the initial refusal.


If the ECM continues the refusal, the paperwork is sent onto the Tribunal, a hearing date is set, the judge looks it over, makes a decision, and notifies the applicant of the outcome. This can take up to a year.

[Terpe]

yellowcloud, you're almost there, but please take a look here (http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/40485-Appeals-Visas-and-Entry-Clearance)

Hopefully it will help.

[bigmarco]

Does anyone know how the appeal process works in simple terms as its very confusing to me?

I think I have figured it out, but please correct me



The ECO refuses the application and sends a notice to the applicant along with their supporting documents.


If the applicant has the right to an appeal, the ECO will include a form with the notification of refusal.


The applicant must fill in the form, write the new statement in defense of their protest, and along with the original supporting documents, sends everything to the court at Leicester.



At Leicester an ECM (entry clearance manager) reviews the form, application, supporting documents, statement of refusal from the original ECO, and the statement from the appealing applicant. If the ECM reverses the ECOs decision, the applicant is notified. This can take up to three months after the initial refusal.


If the ECM continues the refusal, the paperwork is sent onto the Tribunal, a hearing date is set, the judge looks it over, makes a decision, and notifies the applicant of the outcome. This can take up to a year.



The ECM who reviews the case is based at the Embassy in Manila. If he upholds the refusal he then returns a photo copied bundle to Leicester who then forward this on to you together with the date of your hearing.
Its then upto you if you decide to seek professional advice.
Our appeal was submitted late which caused about 6 weeks of delays. The refusal was in March and our appeal date is september so it takes less than a year. I would say slightly less than 6 months if you do everything properly.

[yellowcloud]

Thanks Terpe!!!

Very helpful! What I dont understand is this


If you have any supporting documents that you did not include in your original application but wish to include now, include these with the completed form IAIT-2.

I didnt think that was allowed? For instance someone did not have 3rd party support but then adds 3rd party support with the appeal?

[yellowcloud]

The ECM who reviews the case is based at the Embassy in Manila. If he upholds the refusal he then returns a photo copied bundle to Leicester who then forward this on to you together with the date of your hearing.
Its then upto you if you decide to seek professional advice.

Marc, thanks. I notice you say


Its then upto you if you decide to seek professional advice

However would it not be better to get legal advice and help with filling in the appeal form before the 28 days are up first?

Marc, when you submitted your appeal form did you accompany it with all of the original documents you submitted with the Visa application? or photocopies of all the original documents? Did you also send in additional evidence other than what was in you original application?

Did you apply for Anonymity? if so do you think its a good idea?

If you have a representative acting on your behalf does your fiancée/spouse need to sign the appeal form or anything like that?

[bigmarco]

Marc, thanks. I notice you say



However would it not be better to get legal advice and help with filling in the appeal form before the 28 days are up first?

Yes of course you can do that.
Lets hope you dont have to cross that bridge. Stay positive :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[yellowcloud]

Marco, I hope not but after the way her interview went I think I will be in the same boat as you but not as far ahead of course. I expect the decision tomorrow or any day now.

Sorry Marc I edited my past post and you didn't see my other questions, when you submitted your appeal form did you accompany it with all of the original documents you submitted with the Visa application? or photocopies of all the original documents? Did you also send in additional evidence other than what was in your original application?

Did you apply for Anonymity? if so do you think its a good idea?

If you have a representative acting on your behalf does your fiancée/spouse need to sign the appeal form or anything like that?

[joebloggs]

Thanks Terpe!!!

Very helpful! What I dont understand is this



I didnt think that was allowed? For instance someone did not have 3rd party support but then adds 3rd party support with the appeal?

i don't think you can do that any longer, that's the reason so many appeals were won, because people submitted evidence they should have submitted in the first place, and if they did they probably would have been granted the visa and not been refused :doh

[Mags89]

Hmm hope this turns out well for you and your family Marco; I'm sure it will with the right representation.

It doesn't hope you but some advise to others.

For my fiancée's application, her rep (my UK lawyer) produced an index of all the evidence we submitted. The evidence was bound in a folder because the rep told us they often lose evidence and this minimises the risk of that. Then the rep's letter called out all of the evidence that we submitted and how it showed that we met each piece of the legislation requirements. The rep's letter was very compelling and walked the officer through the thought process they should be using and to the successful conclusion we had.

[Mags89]

i don't think you can do that any longer, that's the reason so many appeals were won, because people submitted evidence they should have submitted in the first place, and if they did they probably would have been granted the visa and not been refused :doh

This is what our rep informed us of; so the application we submitted contained everything that we would need if we had to go to appeal.

[andy222]

Just a question for you guys.
1. You submit your application in Manila
2. If refused all the documents must be sent back to the uk for the appeal? Is that right?

[bigmarco]

Just a question for you guys.
1. You submit your application in Manila
2. If refused all the documents must be sent back to the uk for the appeal? Is that right?

You submit your partners application in Manila if its refused they return original documents to her but they keep copies.
When you submit your appeal to leicester they send this to ECM in Manila if he upholds refusal he notifies Leicester and sends them a copy of the bundle which they forward on to you with the date of the hearing.

Thanks everybody for your kind words. Really appreciated.

[lastlid]

Hmm hope this turns out well for you and your family Marco; I'm sure it will with the right representation.

It doesn't hope you but some advise to others.

For my fiancée's application, her rep (my UK lawyer) produced an index of all the evidence we submitted. The evidence was bound in a folder because the rep told us they often lose evidence and this minimises the risk of that. Then the rep's letter called out all of the evidence that we submitted and how it showed that we met each piece of the legislation requirements. The rep's letter was very compelling and walked the officer through the thought process they should be using and to the successful conclusion we had.

This is what our Immigration agent did. Itemised everything that was included in the submission on a covering page. A sort of Index but grouped according to the order used on the website. And also related it directly to the legislation. Our submission papers remained loose though, as evidently even submitted in bound form VFS want the sheets separated.

[yellowcloud]

Does anyone know when you submit your appeal form do you accompany it with all of the original documents you submitted with the Visa application? or photocopies of all the original documents? Do you also send in additional evidence other than what was in your original application?



Do you think Anonymity is a good idea as it is offered in an appeal? If so why?



If you have a representative acting on your behalf does your fiancée/spouse need to sign the appeal form or anything like that?

[Dedworth]

Does anyone know when you submit your appeal form do you accompany it with all of the original documents you submitted with the Visa application? or photocopies of all the original documents? Do you also send in additional evidence other than what was in your original application?



Do you think Anonymity is a good idea as it is offered in an appeal? If so why?



If you have a representative acting on your behalf does your fiancée/spouse need to sign the appeal form or anything like that?


Do you need to go to appeal having had an application turned down Yellowcloud ? If not I can't really see any point in asking all these questions, however never having submitted a visa application I'm probably not qualified to comment

[yellowcloud]

Do you need to go to appeal having had an application turned down Yellowcloud ? If not I can't really see any point in asking all these questions, however never having submitted a visa application I'm probably not qualified to comment

No we dont, but as our application is marginal I dont want to just wait until we get a refusal and then spend days trying to understand the appeal process when we have a strict deadline and I know my head will not be thinking straight if we are rejected so would rather learn about it now while I can actually take it in. Plus, I think this information is helpful to others and for me I love to help others and by learning these things I will use what I know to reply to other people who are seeking or may need to know this if theres a real possibility they will need to know and understand these things.

[Dedworth]

Thanks for the answer but tbh I think with a bit of searching all the info is to be found on this forum

If I was in your shoes Yellowcloud I'd rather not tempt fate.

[yellowcloud]

Thanks for the answer but tbh I think with a bit of searching all the info is to be found on this forum

Thats what I do, unless there is something I can not find then I ask the question.


If I was in your shoes Yellowcloud I'd rather not tempt fate

Dedworth, funny as I have found the opposite to be true in my life haha. Most times when I expect something it doesn't happen but most times when I don't expect something it does :P

[Dedworth]

Dedworth, funny as I have found the opposite to be true in my life haha. Most times when I expect something it doesn't happen but most times when I don't expect something it does :P

Do you know that thought did cross my mind - good luck with the application !

[lastlid]

Do you know that thought did cross my mind - good luck with the application !

Always expect the unexpected. No one expected the Spanish Inquisition.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI

[yellowcloud]

Dedworth, haha its funny how life is like that. Have you ever been waiting for a bus and its due and you are expecting it to arrive, then you wait and wait and it still doesnt come and you think "right its not going to arrive now must have come early or who knows" and you walk off and just when you no longer think it is going to happen or expecting it and walk off and you look over your shoulder and there it coming down the road!!!!:Erm:

[gWaPito]

'' Spanish Inquisition'' I get that morning day and night :NoNo:

[bigmarco]

Marco, I hope not but after the way her interview went I think I will be in the same boat as you but not as far ahead of course. I expect the decision tomorrow or any day now.

Sorry Marc I edited my past post and you didn't see my other questions, when you submitted your appeal form did you accompany it with all of the original documents you submitted with the Visa application? or photocopies of all the original documents? Did you also send in additional evidence other than what was in your original application?

Did you apply for Anonymity? if so do you think its a good idea?

If you have a representative acting on your behalf does your fiancée/spouse need to sign the appeal form or anything like that?

Hi Yellowcloud
Our appeal contained very few documents because in our view the refusal was down to the fact that our original application had not been studied properly. We simply contested their reasons for refusal and submitted one or two photocopies of documents they already had (ie Photocopy My Passport). No additional documents were sent because we felt we had sent everything necessary with the application.
Anonymity wasn't requested and to be honest I didn't know you could.
The appeal form was completed in the Philippines and as far as I'm aware this can also be done online.

[yellowcloud]

Marco, thanks for that. Very helpful. I know you will be fine with your appeal and prayers are going your way!! Did you find out if you can be reimbursed due to the extra cost of what you have due to the ECOs error?

Does anyone know what this witness statement thing for an appeal is all about? What is it? Does it need to be submitted with the appeal letter?

[yellowcloud]

For anyone who needs to appeal I have simplied the whole thing for what you need to do.


How to appeal in laymans terms;

OK you want to appeal this is what you do.

1a)The applicant fills out the appeal form which is included in the package and post it to the appeals tribuneral in Leicester.

OR

b) Leave the appeal form blank and post it to a UK based Lawyer to fill it in and sign it on your behalf (you do not need to sign it if you choose this option, the lawyer/solicitor can do this on your behalf).

2) Write a defending statement, defending your application; in the letter you should write that you don’t understand how the ECO refused because you meet the requirements as evidenced by XYZ documents (here is where you take the ECO reasons and points out the documents that refutes the ECO decision and reasons). You sign it and post it to the appeals tribuneral in Leicester along with the filled in appeals form or your blank appeals form to your lawyer/solicitor acting on your behalf.

3) Alongside the Appeal letter and defending statement post everything the ECO sent back to you and the original letter from the ECO stating the refusal and why the application was refused straight to the court at Leicester or your UK BASED lawyer.

4) You send all the originals bundle (ie everything you gave to the ECO IN THE INITIAL APPLICATION + photocopies of the original bundle). But you do not send 'new' supporting documents or they will throw the appeal out saying you are submitting new documents and that constitutes a new application.

So check list of everything you send before your 28 days to appeal have run out to either your UK Based Lawyer/solicitor or directly to Leicester.

TO UK BASED LAWYER ALL IN SAME PACKAGE


BLANK UNSIGNED APPEALS FORM
DEFENDING STATEMENT
ORIGINALS BUNDLE
PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINALS BUNDLE
ANYTHING THE ECO GAVE BACK TO YOU INCLUDING REFUSAL LETTER



TO LEICESTER ALL IN SAME PACKAGE


SIGNED AND FILLED IN APPEALS FORM
DEFENDING STATEMENT
ORGINALS BUNDLE
PHOTOCOPY OF ORGINALS BUNDLE
ANYTHING THE ECO GAVE BACK TO YOU INCLUDING REFUSAL LETTER




Now this is something I am not totally sure of, I have heard that New evidence to prove a fact in the original application is allowed. The evidence must have existed at the time the application was submitted and not have been submitted for one way or the other. In this regard, it is not interpreted as new. However, I would like clarification on if this is OK?

[BriaNoreen]

Marcos - it is important to always feel brave and never give up fighting - these are your rights, your wife's rights, and your lives at stake and being wrongfully interfered with by the state.

I have noticed a number of cases where the ECO makes a number of false accusations, and speaks lies, against the applicant, to 'load the case' against you - to falsely justify the malicious refusal.

You must tell your lawyer that clearly the ECO is lying, you DID provide the evidence, and the accusations such as not genuinely marrying, did not talk etc [or whatever it may be in each case], are false.

Any decision delivered on the grounds of a number of false accusations, lies, and 'ad hominem' attacks against you - is unjust. It is not genuinely following points of law or procedure in any form.

I am ashamed that a British institution, the UKBA, is behaving unprofessionally as we might expect in corrupt nations such as the Philippines, China, N Korea or such like. We are supposed to have rights backed by law and procedure, due process, fair appraisal and so on.

This is not happening - and your first and last argument and fight must be simple - the ECO is lying, and making false accusations, there is no proper procedure.

Sometimes the ECO seems to work from an emotional discontent, such as not personally liking the couple or marriage, or in your case - your wife leaving her child behind. But what law and interpretation of law is the ECO using here? We would need a lawyer to explain that - but from a political science perspective - this behaviour can only lead to forms of discretion that form malicious applications of the law.

These points I have made will apply to all cases and yours. However, in your case - leaving the child behind in the Philippines will always be to your disadvantage, as a judge will argue the child has rights, and the personal circumstances of you and your wife or no less relevant - but how this permits an ECO to prevent you from living together in the UK is something I don't know. On this point alone, you will need to have a very in depth discussion with a lawyer. Mention the lies and false accusations to the lawyer and instruct him to fight on these also of course!

[yellowcloud]

Thanks Brinoren,

This is what my Lawyer has written in her letter to the ECO. What do you think?

Adequate maintenance until the date of the marriage is available from both the applicant and her partner. Our client’s current bank statement account number xxxxxxxxxxx indicates funds of £1,257. She also relies on a statement indicating her salary credits and a current salary of £320.59 per month. The money in her accounts is available to support her in the UK.

In addition our client relies on the funds available to her sponsor who is able to support her before their marriage. Our clients sponsors bank statement shows a balance of £3914.56 as of 14 May 2012. At the present rate of income support which is £111.45 per week for a couple our client and her partner have sufficient means to be supported without recourse to public funds for 46 weeks. In addition to this he has a balance of £3915.61 in his Cash ISA which indicates that our client can be supported for a total period of 81 weeks without recourse to other means of income.

Our clients partner is currently in receipt of contributions based Employment Support Allowance as he is presently unfit for work. He has provided evidence of his benefit and evidence of his medical conditions which evidence the reason for receipt of this benefit. The benefit is not a public fund for the purposes of the Immigration Rules under S 6 and therefore reliance on this benefit is permissible and can not lead to a refusal of leave to enter. The current rate of benefit payable to him is £105 per week which taken together which his current savings indicates clearly indicates that he is able to support our client without additional recourse to public funds both before and after the marriage .

[BriaNoreen]

I don't recommend that on point 2, you say on appeal you don't understand why the ECO refused. If you do this - they, as 'professionals', can countervene you by claiming that they have made full appraisal and if you need help understanding it, a lawyer or CAB advisor should talk you through it.

If you argue you DO understand how the ECO refused you, you can argue you understand why the ECO is wrong - and you are starting from a stronger argument and can build a better case with your lawyer.

[BriaNoreen]

This is good yellowcloud. Although where possible, 'support indefinitely', if it can be reasonably proven, supersedes 'support for xx weeks'.

Your ESA is not a public fund also because it is a means to faciliate you to live normally, so beyond Immigration Rules, you have an inalieable right to use this money as you see fit to live a 'normal life', which includes getting married [and you can't be refused the right to marry under International human rights convention simply because you are disabled - as no individual can be told by the state when they can or cannot marry and start a family, nor can the state lawfully hinder you from doing so - ESA helps not hinders therefore... You get the idea I'm sure! A lawyer will regard this as a politico-legal argument and not a purely legal one, but it still applies in law].

So go ahead and roll the dice if you got your housing issue sorted.

[yellowcloud]

This is good yellowcloud. Although where possible, 'support indefinitely', if it can be reasonably proven, supersedes 'support for xx weeks'.

Your ESA is not a public fund also because it is a means to faciliate you to live normally, so beyond Immigration Rules, you have an inalieable right to use this money as you see fit to live a 'normal life', which includes getting married [and you can't be refused the right to marry under International human rights convention simply because you are disabled - as no individual can be told by the state when they can or cannot marry and start a family, nor can the state lawfully hinder you from doing so - ESA helps not hinders therefore... You get the idea I'm sure! A lawyer will regard this as a politico-legal argument and not a purely legal one, but it still applies in law].

So go ahead and roll the dice if you got your housing issue sorted.


Yes, we have rolled the dice back in June and still waiting. We sorted out the accomdation, that is a strong area for us as we have no rent to pay and will be staying with my parents for as long as we need too (submitted all that evidence) we didnt get 3rd party financial support from anyone though.

So in your opinion on maintenance aspect do you think we should be OK?

[lastlid]

Marcos - it is important to always feel brave and never give up fighting - these are your rights, your wife's rights, and your lives at stake and being wrongfully interfered with by the state.

I have noticed a number of cases where the ECO makes a number of false accusations, and speaks lies, against the applicant, to 'load the case' against you - to falsely justify the malicious refusal.

You must tell your lawyer that clearly the ECO is lying, you DID provide the evidence, and the accusations such as not genuinely marrying, did not talk etc [or whatever it may be in each case], are false.

Any decision delivered on the grounds of a number of false accusations, lies, and 'ad hominem' attacks against you - is unjust. It is not genuinely following points of law or procedure in any form.

I am ashamed that a British institution, the UKBA, is behaving unprofessionally as we might expect in corrupt nations such as the Philippines, China, N Korea or such like. We are supposed to have rights backed by law and procedure, due process, fair appraisal and so on.

This is not happening - and your first and last argument and fight must be simple - the ECO is lying, and making false accusations, there is no proper procedure.

Sometimes the ECO seems to work from an emotional discontent, such as not personally liking the couple or marriage, or in your case - your wife leaving her child behind. But what law and interpretation of law is the ECO using here? We would need a lawyer to explain that - but from a political science perspective - this behaviour can only lead to forms of discretion that form malicious applications of the law.

These points I have made will apply to all cases and yours. However, in your case - leaving the child behind in the Philippines will always be to your disadvantage, as a judge will argue the child has rights, and the personal circumstances of you and your wife or no less relevant - but how this permits an ECO to prevent you from living together in the UK is something I don't know. On this point alone, you will need to have a very in depth discussion with a lawyer. Mention the lies and false accusations to the lawyer and instruct him to fight on these also of course!

Interesting slant, Brian Noreen and one I haven't seen before but have erred towards in my mind. ( In the past, I haven't thought of it so much in terms of lieing to load the case and have tended towards thoughts more along the lines of ECO incompetence. ) But since you mention it, it seems to make some sense.

In terms of Marco's case, I wonder why they (the UKBA) continue to pursue their side of the case, knowing that they have "lied" in this way. Maybe its because they think, erroneously, that Marco will give up or maybe they believe that (hopefully erroneously too) Marco won't be able to prove them wrong.....:Erm:

[joebloggs]

i doubt many ECO's are liars, if it goes to appeal then a judge would also see these lies, but on average only 1/3rd of appeals are won.

you have to minimize your risks of refusal before you submit your application, and if they say you didn't supply certain evidence, make an index that clearly states what evidence you've supplied and the page number.

[Terpe]

This is the methodology that most immigration advisors adopt.
Even to the extent of indicating the specific immigration rule complied with.

[bigmarco]

I'm not necessarilly sure that the correct approach when going to court would be to say they lied. It's more their incorrect interpretation of the application and also the fact that they missed things in the supporting documentation.
My lawyer even asked me the other day did we actually send photographs with the application because she found it strange that on 2 occassions they have stated that we never supplied photographs.
I took our original application over to her which included 28 photographs stuck in twos on A4 paper with writtten explanations of where when and who were in them. I also said that I found it even stranger that they have said on 2 occassions they havent seen my passport and yet they supplied a copy of it with the appeal papers.
D day is getting closer now so just hoping for a good performance from the lawyer and a Judgewho takes his time and studies the application.
The bottom line is I really wouldn't have appealed if I didn't think they got it wrong. Between the cost of appealing and my solicitors cost it comes to quite a bit more than simply submitting another application.

[joebloggs]

I'm not necessarilly sure that the correct approach when going to court would be to say they lied. It's more their incorrect interpretation of the application and also the fact that they missed things in the supporting documentation.
My lawyer even asked me the other day did we actually send photographs with the application because she found it strange that on 2 occassions they have stated that we never supplied photographs.
I took our original application over to her which included 28 photographs stuck in twos on A4 paper with writtten explanations of where when and who were in them. I also said that I found it even stranger that they have said on 2 occassions they havent seen my passport and yet they supplied a copy of it with the appeal papers.
D day is getting closer now so just hoping for a good performance from the lawyer and a Judgewho takes his time and studies the application.
The bottom line is I really wouldn't have appealed if I didn't think they got it wrong. Between the cost of appealing and my solicitors cost it comes to quite a bit more than simply submitting another application.

evidence probably does get lost, with the 100s if not 1000s of apps a month, no excuse for them losing it, but if people had made an index page which listed all your evidence, then you would have thought they would contact you and say we cant find this or that, can you send another copy instead of refusing the application.

when my misses applied for FLR, we sent it all in a nice folder, we didnt get the folder back :angry:also i know of one case where they told the lady applying for the visa to take every document out of the plastic wallets inside the folder - no wonder documents get lost :doh

good luck again Marco :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[lastlid]

I always felt that they might have scanned every incoming application first thing as it comes through the door. Part of the reason for charging so much. Maybe they dont but it would be a way of ensuring that material doesnt get lost or even mislaid within their own building or if it does get lost then there are copies to refer to. And what about the duplicate set? What do they do with that? I always thought the duplicate set was a backup against losing application papers.....

So if they had your photos in duplicate, if they lost one set of photos then they would have had the copies to refer to. But like you say, they returned the photos to you. How bizarre.....

Our application included an index / list of contents.

I still think admin error / negligence and are maybe trying to hide it.

[lastlid]

i doubt many ECO's are liars, if it goes to appeal then a judge would also see these lies, but on average only 1/3rd of appeals are won.

you have to minimize your risks of refusal before you submit your application, and if they say you didn't supply certain evidence, make an index that clearly states what evidence you've supplied and the page number.

We also included a list of contents of receipts. And a list of contents of YM chat logs (by date).

[joebloggs]

I still think admin error / negligence and are maybe trying to hide it.

from the time you hand in your app to an ECO looking at it, its probably been passed to more than one person, more than one office or building and certain pages have been taken out to be scanned or photocopied.

maybe they should staple or tie each page together when you submit it so its more difficult to lose any pages.

[lastlid]

from the time you hand in your app to an ECO looking at it, its probably been passed to more than one person, more than one office or building and certain pages have been taken out to be scanned or photocopied.

maybe they should staple or tie each page together when you submit it so its more difficult to lose any pages.

We deal with peoples valuable papers here at work and we use ye old treasury tags to keep them together in a wad. Simple but effective. But we have electronic (scanned) copies as backup. But we regard the originators as valuable customers. If we didn't take care it would be all too easy to lose sections or mix them up.

[travina]

4) You send all the originals bundle (ie everything you gave to the ECO IN THE INITIAL APPLICATION + photocopies of the original bundle). But you do not send 'new' supporting documents or they will throw the appeal out saying you are submitting new documents and that constitutes a new application.


Now this is something I am not totally sure of, I have heard that New evidence to prove a fact in the original application is allowed. The evidence must have existed at the time the application was submitted and not have been submitted for one way or the other. In this regard, it is not interpreted as new. However, I would like clarification on if this is OK?

hi yellowcloud

NEW EVIDENCE which postdates the decision cannot be considered by the ECM but an ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS relating to the initial application it should be taken into an account by the ECM. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ecg/apl/apl7/

[bigmarco]

Heard from the Lawyer today. She thinks we have a very strong appeal and we should be very positive about it. Not counting my chickens but it was good to hear.

[Dedworth]

Fingers crossed Marco http://www.theprofilebrotherhood.com/forum/images/smilies/crossed_fingers.gif

[andy222]

I hope everything goes well for you marco.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[bigmarco]

Cheers Lads nervous times as the day approaches

[yellowcloud]

Heard from the Lawyer today. She thinks we have a very strong appeal and we should be very positive about it. Not counting my chickens but it was good to hear.

Great news Marco!!!

Has the Appeal been sent to the ECM yet to review as it may not need to goto appeals court!

If it has but no luck from the ECM and its going to appeal, which appeal court is your hearing going to be held? London?

Who did you end up choosing for your lawyer?

[bigmarco]

Great news Marco!!!

Has the Appeal been sent to the ECM yet to review as it may not need to goto appeals court!

If it has but no luck from the ECM and its going to appeal, which appeal court is your hearing going to be held? London?

Who did you end up choosing for your lawyer?

No ECM upheld refusal. Appeal tribunal in London next week. I have hired Victoria Sharkey to act for us and she's saying we have a good case in her opinion.

[yellowcloud]

Good call!!

Let us know how you get on!! You might get a decision on the day or you may have to wait.

[rhaichard]

i asked something ... did your wife seperate all your documents from her documents when she passed her application ?its confusing :doh

[yellowcloud]

Richard, do you mean for the initial application? or for appeal?

[rhaichard]

her initial application ... :)

[rhaichard]

i got refused visa also for a wrong decision of ECO about our financial requirements
:bigcry:

[yellowcloud]

Well you put all the evidence together ie bank statements, letters etc in one bundle and make a photo copy of the whole bundle and keep it separate and then make another copy of everything for yourself and at the appointment hand in the originals bundle and the copies bundle but keep one of the copies bundle for yourself. Dont use plastic wallets or anything and stick the photos onto a piece of paper with prit stick. Does that make sense?
Do you know there is a new rule now about having to make £18,600?

[yellowcloud]

i got refused visa also for a wrong decision of ECO about our financial requirements

Why? what happened? Is this Richard or his wife here speaking? :icon_lol:

[rhaichard]

i dont know ... yeah they will ask to remove your documents into the plastic envelope .. i put clip on mine its 3 documents ...

1 for my original copies
2 for my photo copies and
3 for my husband documents with bank statements

[rhaichard]

uhhmm yeah we know about the rules but the ECO said in refusal decision that overtime and bonuses is not counted as income threshold..


but when we review the rules with the help of the expert member here ... overtime and bonuses is counted .. so as TERPE, LASTLID and ARTHUR LITTLE said its crystal clear that is the ECO error .. it means he dont the rules :laugher:

[rhaichard]

rhaichard is our mix name haha :icon_lol::laugher:

[rhaichard]

im wife not husband :icon_lol::laugher:

[yellowcloud]

OK..haha ok well Im off now as its late here :O

[lastlid]

Heard from the Lawyer today. She thinks we have a very strong appeal and we should be very positive about it. Not counting my chickens but it was good to hear.
:xxgrinning--00xx3: