US Ambassador to Libya killed

[grahamw48]

Why do we bother 'helping' these animals and their pathetic religious nonsense ? :NoNo:

.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5i57RPNQST002NohqguubjReEuCog?docId=N0116121347409466243A

[andy222]

oil.

[grahamw48]

That's the truth...sadly. :NoNo:

[CBM]

I grew up in Libya; my childhood friends were Libyan, Palestinian. Egyptian, Lebanese, French, British and American.

This thread saddens me.

Ambassador Stevens was a very fine man, a true friend of the Arab world in general and of Libya in particular, who died risking his own life to save others.

An American friend has pointed out in another place that Libyans risked their own lives to get Ambasador Stevens to hospital, where he died, and to save his body and those of his colleagues from desecration.

I am not sure that, confronted with, literally, a howling mob, I would have had the courage to do that.

As for the whipping up of the crowd, anyone who knows anything knows how easy it is to do that, anywhere - we British can hardly be proud of last summer's riots - and it is of course particularly easy in countries like Libya, with a large population of unemployed and underemployed young men in the big cities.

And as to what really happened, here are two articles which are worth reading.

This is from The Atlantic and was published before the news of the attack on the Benghazi consulate:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/the-movie-so-offensive-that-egyptians-just-stormed-the-us-embassy-over-it/262225/#.UFCLmqcuHdo.facebook

whilst this is from NBC a couple of hours ago; it suggests that far from this being a riot triggered by a film, the attack on the Consulate was carried out by a couple of dozen Islamist extremists on orders from al-Qaeda, to "avenge" the killing of al-Libi in a drone strike, using the fuss caused by the film as cover. Noman Benotman has a very good track record in this area - as indeed he should have.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13824089-us-wont-rule-out-islamist-militant-link-to-attack-sends-forces-to-libya?lite

[lastlid]

Yes. I wondered if this was Islamist extremist driven. Now that Gaddafi and Mubarak have gone it is a bit of a gamechanger in that part of the "Middle East" or should I say that part of the Meditteranean.

[CBM]

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/5614871f7f7fa8ff86472fa43ceb3f23_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/2d69957ce22934ce5a140c44faebb1f1_600x398.jpeg

[grahamw48]

Yes. I wondered if this was Islamist extremist driven. Now that Gaddafi and Mubarak have gone it is a bit of a gamechanger in that part of the "Middle East" or should I say that part of the Meditteranean.

Well yes, that theory was being discussed on the Today programme this morning.

[CBM]

An article in Al-Jazeera English about the curious origins of the film, almost suggesting that it was financed by Islamist extremists.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/201291214042970150.html

Personally I am rather inclined to think that the Quilliam Foundation are on the right track:

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press-releases/the-attack-on-the-us-consulate-was-a-planned-terrorist-assault-against-us-and-libyan-interests/

[lastlid]

I grew up in Libya; my childhood friends were Libyan, Palestinian. Egyptian, Lebanese, French, British and American.






I have been a Libyan watcher ever since I spent 3 solid years there working in 1979 and the early 80's.

I guess it will take some time for the effects of the revolution to settle down but in the mean time there will be some vulnerability to the extremists.

[CBM]

Exactly.

There have been other similar attacks by these people, but these did not make it into the western media because the targets were Sufi mosques.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291125110843653.html

[lastlid]

Personally I hope it all settles down over there. I want to go back as tourist and look at the other Roman remains that I didn't see. The best outside Italy. There is no reason why Libya can't harness tourism again and like its neighbours in Tunisia etc.

[lastlid]

The other reason that I keep a keen eye on Libya is that it is on Europe's doorstep. If it is a problem then it ain't so far away in this day and age. Perhaps another reason for our vested interest in its future, for us in the UK.

[CBM]

Exactly.

Like you, I am keen to re-visit Libya with my family.

When the "Arab Spring" began, I assumed that the Tunisians, a well educated people with no oil and who depend on tourism and from remittances from overseas workers (bit like somewhere else we know...;)) would suceed, that the Egyptians might get somewhere but not where they wanted to get to, because the Army are so deeply embedded, but that the Libyans had no chance aganst Gaddafi.

I was wrong.

Imagine what North Africa would look like with Libya as a well developed, friendly, place.

[lastlid]

Exactly.

Like you, I am keen to re-visit Libya with my family.

When the "Arab Spring" began, I assumed that the Tunisians, a well educated people with no oil and who depend on tourism and from remittances from overseas workers (bit like somewhere else we know...;)) would suceed, that the Egyptians might get somewhere but not where they wanted to get to, because the Army are so deeply embedded, but that the Libyans had no chance aganst Gaddafi.

I was wrong.

Imagine what North Africa would look like with Libya as a well developed, friendly, place.

Exactly. Loads of potential and only 3 hours away. Its a Mediteranean country just like Italy, France, Greece etc. Well, almost. It is no further away from us than Greece.

[CBM]

Leptis Magna, Sabratha, the cave paintings in the Acacus Jebel...all World Heritage Sites...

[lastlid]

Leptis Magna, Sabratha, the cave paintings in the Acacus Jebel...all World Heritage Sites...

I managed to get to Sabratha. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[CBM]

The cave paintings are astonishing because they are quite recent - say 10,000 BC down to just a few years BC - and yet they show elephants, giraffe, zebra - fauna that you now have to go to Kenya to see - so we know that the climate must once have been very different, with no Sahara. The Romans called Libya "the granary of Europe", it was so fertile. The Emperor Septimus Severus died in York but was born in Leptis Magna.

[lastlid]

The cave paintings are astonishing because they are quite recent - say 10,000 BC down to just a few years BC - and yet they show elephants, giraffe, zebra - fauna that you now have to go to Kenya to see - so we know that the climate must once have been very different, with no Sahara. The Romans called Libya "the granary of Europe", it was so fertile. The Emperor Septimus Severus died in York but was born in Leptis Magna.

Yep. When I was out in the desert, there were places where there were flint arrowheads everywhere. From a time when man was hunting the local animals for food etc. ( I wasn't aware of the cave paintings ). It was a different landscape then.

[CBM]

I have been a Libyan watcher ever since I spent 3 solid years there working in 1979 and the early 80's.

I guess it will take some time for the effects of the revolution to settle down but in the mean time there will be some vulnerability to the extremists.

Exactly. Gaddafi did a first class job of destroying all the elements of civil society, because he thought they - be they the legal system, the Police, the judiciary, the Press, the education system, even shopkeeping - might threaten him. (The only things he never tampered with were the Ministry of Petroleum and the Faculty of Engineering, because that was where the money came from. What he didnt anticipate was that you would find Libyan engineers in every oilfield in the Middle East).

Putting them all the elements of a modern state back into place will take time and a lot of effort.

[lastlid]

Exactly. Gaddafi did a first class job of destroying all the elements of civil society, because he thought they - be they the legal system, the Police, the judiciary, the Press, the education system, even shopkeeping - might threaten him. (The only things he never tampered with were the Ministry of Petroleum and the Faculty of Engineering, because that was where the money came from. What he didnt anticipate was that you would find Libyan engineers in every oilfield in the Middle East).

Putting them all the elements of a modern state back into place will take time and a lot of effort.

Hey. But what about the Green Book? :icon_lol: