Fiancé Visa Refusal advice

[Rb2004]

Hi, just wondered if people could offer some advice? It would be much appreciated, as I feel the reasons for refusal was not justified. I have also read about people contacting Stephen Lillie ambassador to the UK in the Philippines with success in getting a visa granted.

Background information is, we hired an immigration barrister to help us submit the application to the UKBA.

My fiancé took her English test and got a B2 score on it. We also submitted as much evidence as we could, a letter from me, a letter from my fiancé, a letter from her auntie, a letter from my parents, previous mobile phone bills showing lots of text messages from me to her during previous months each month, photos of my visit there with her, receipts for engagement ring, receipts for e tickets for air travel in the Philippines together. Etc

My mother is Filipino, my father is English and so I am half Filipino.. I met my fiancé during a visit to the Philippines and travel there regularly, 3 times in 2 years so far.. I met her through my cousin.

Accommodation, my parents own 2 houses that I have free use of with her when she arrives here and my uncle owns a further 4 including the one he lives in and again has given us free use of any one I want before he rents the rest again.

We hired a barrister, because it is an awkward situation regarding income, I am self employed and business is not great and I'm still trying to build it up, so my last years tax return only showed around £5000 and when I'm not doing work of my own, I help out my father and uncle in renovating houses to rent and existing owned properties.. Hence why there is so many properties owned in the family. But it does mean money coming in from that is family money.. Rather than my own, we support one another as a family and do work to help each other out... So that's where the income comes from.

And as a result my father put himself forward as her sponsor using the form available from the UKBA and we put that forward with the application and financially wise.. As a family between my uncle and father we demonstrated that in the bank in savings there is more than a sufficient amount to support my fiancé for the period of 6 months. £6000 in 1 bank account, another £10,000 in another, and another £107,000 in another account.. Total, £123,000 or equivalent money to somebody earning in a period of 6 years.. At a decent wage of £20,000 per year after tax... So more than enough to support somebody for the 6 month duration of a fiancé visa.

Even the barrister said to us that there is more than enough money there... Somebody else was told they only needed to show £64k in the bank.

We submitted the application before the rules changed in July.

But despite showing evidence of a relationship, adequate accommodation existing and more than adequate financial support available.

The ECO declined her visa, using both accommodation and money as an excuse along with not enough evidence to persuade them a marriage would take place.

So had to pay barrister more money to setup an appeal.. They did this in July.

They wanted a further letter from my father and uncle confirming the money would be available to use for her support and maintenance... So right we did this.

They also wanted to see a surveyors report on the property.. So we did this also from a surveyor who just does property inspection reports for immigration purposes.. So tick..

Then I wrote a further letter outlining plans for wedding and what would happen once she got here etc how we would visit the registry office, pay the relevant fees, book a date, post notice.. Where the reception and ceremony would be held etc how she is presently looking for wedding dresses... I was told after I could have got a provisional booking but the registry office was not too helpful on this because they kept telling me she had to be in the country first.

So hopefully all the reasons for it being denied were fulfilled.

We got a letter from the courts saying after January 6th we would hear something.

It has now been almost 4 months into that time period but we have not heard anything back since, so we don't know if its been reviewed and denial upheld or what.

But I find it outrageous how they can say that when enough money exists in an equivalent amount to somebody's income at £20,000 a year for 6 years after tax! Is not sufficient to support somebody for 6 moths!

Under the old rules they allowed 3rd party sponsors so it was acceptable.

Even more why I'm anxious about the result because a new application under new rules don't allow 3rd party sponsors any more.

So I'm presently working on a backup plan, had to borrow some money off my uncle and setup a 2nd business with a higher yield income.. So I can meet new requirements, problem is the business is seasonal so I won't have any kind of projected accounts until end of next summer and I miss her now and just want to get married as soon as possible... My family is very supportive and as above we look after one another.. But all this waiting is just upsetting for everyone because she misses me, I miss her... Even my mother misses her lol! Because she gets on well with her and I think she likes the idea of having another Filipino around who she can treat like a daughter lol.

Does anybody have any advice on what I can do to move this along or get it approved? Or do I need to sit it out and wait till it goes to court if they don't overturn it before hand:

Will writing to Stephen Lillie help? Or interfere with the appeal?

Because I do feel we met the requirements adequately and the reasons for it being overturned weren't really justified.

[Terpe]

.........Because I do feel we met the requirements adequately and the reasons for it being overturned weren't really justified.

The appeals process is a long and difficult pathway.
I'm sure your immigration advisor has outlined the various steps.
The responsible ECM has time (usually up to 6 months) to review the decisions of the ECO against immigration rules and the submitted application.
The ECM has authority to overturn the original decision or to continue a defence of your appeal.
One the ECM has made the decision you will be giving a hearing date.

Interventions may be made at any time during the ECM reconsideration stage, and often are made. But cannot be made once the ECM has completed the reconsideration.

Everyone's case is different. It's difficult to give meaningful advice without knowing the wording of the original refusal letter.

Are you able to share that?

We've known cases here that were clearly wrong and unjust and yet UKBA pressed on, only to pull out at the very last moment just before the actual hearing.

[joebloggs]

I'm sure in the rules and regs, 3rd party financial support for a fiancee should not be allowed, but maybe it was never enforced. after all she cannot work probably for 6 months so you should have the funds to support her.

as terpe has posted need to know the exact reasons for refusal.

[Rb2004]

I'm sure in the rules and regs, 3rd party financial support for a fiancee should not be allowed, but maybe it was never enforced. after all she cannot work probably for 6 months so you should have the funds to support her.

as terpe has posted need to know the exact reasons for refusal.



Hi will try to type out the refusal letter.

3rd party support was allowed under the old rules. Not allowed under new rules, they even had a form to fill in for 3rd party sponsors, sponsorship undertaking form. Yes I know she can't work for 6 months :)

But regardless of where the money was coming from the fact remains that there is adequate financial support available to mean she won't be claiming benefits or working in that 6 months.

[bigmarco]

Hi and sorry to hear about your refusal.
Let the guys know the wording of the refusal as there is some good information available here.
Having recently gone through the refusal and appeals process myself I fully understand what you are going through at the moment.
It seems that as you have now heard from the HMCTS they have in fact forwarded your appeal back to Manila for the ECM to review the case. He will then either overturn or uphold the refusal. If he upholds the refusal then he returns the pack to HMCTS who will then issue a date for hearing. FYI my actual hearing date was almost 2 months before the date set by the court so hopefully things will start moving quickly for you.
Is your immigration specialist UK based ?
I myself wrote to Stephen Lillie but that was after I won my case. I know of someone who was very recently refused on financial grounds and they wrote to Stephen Lillie at the time they had submitted the appeal. His office replied and said they would make sure the matter was considered properly and a short while later he heard that his refusal was overturned and the visa was issued. So there is no harm in sending an email to him but I would suggest you do it quickly as from what you have said your papers are now back in Manila.
Stay positive and be aware that some cases don't even reach the court. My case was cancelled the day before the hearing and the visa issued because their legal people in the UK didn't wish to defend the case. I had also hired a very good solicitor to act on our behalf.
I wish you well.

[Terpe]

Hi will try to type out the refusal letter.......

Please do.
Based solely on what you've said it does seem strange for the ECO to decide refuse primarily on Maintenance and Accommodation.


......3rd party support was allowed under the old rules. Not allowed under new rules, they even had a form to fill in for 3rd party sponsors, sponsorship undertaking form. Yes I know she can't work for 6 months :)...

Yes, under the old rules third party support may be factored into the consideration, but not given

Here's what UKBA state:-


There is no explicit minimum figure for what represents sufficient maintenance. If dependants of the main applicant are going to accompany him / her to the United Kingdom, resources must be available for the whole family unit to be maintained.

The ECO should bear in mind the position taken by the UK Asylum and Immigration Tribunal (UKAIT):

In 2006, the UKAIT in UKAIT 00065 KA and Others (Pakistan), strongly suggested that it would not be appropriate to have immigrant families existing on resources that were less than the Income Support level for a British family of that size.

More information is available on the British & Irish Legal Information Institute (BAILII) website.

If it is more likely than not that the total amount that the applicant and sponsor will have to live on will be below what the income support level would be for a British family of that size, then it may be appropriate to refuse the application on maintenance and accommodation grounds.

Maintenance may be provided by either:
The applicant with their own funds or with funds available to them; or
The sponsor; or
A combination of applicant and sponsor funds; or
Third party support (see below).

A couple or other applicant who is / are unable to produce sufficient evidence to meet the maintenance requirement may provide an undertaking from members of their families that those members will support the couple / applicant until they are able to support themselves from their own resources.

Third party support is not precluded from consideration under the maintenance requirements relating to spouses, civil partners, fiancé(e)s, proposed civil partners, unmarried partners, same-sex partners, children, parents, grandparents and other dependent relatives of sponsors who are settled in the UK.

The Entry Clearance Officer will need to verify and assess an offer of third party support in order to determine whether an applicant satisfies the requirement that he / she can be adequately maintained in the UK without recourse to public funds. The ECO may request evidence (for example, original bank statements over at least three months) of the third party's assets.


.....But regardless of where the money was coming from the fact remains that there is adequate financial support available to mean she won't be claiming benefits or working in that 6 months.

Well, it actually does matter where the money was coming from.
If the Maintenance & Accommodation was considered to be adequate there would not have been a refusal.

We really need to see the exact wording of the refusal. That's the key to determining what's needed in order to counter the UKBA position.

I am now just wondering if there may have been 2 or 3 reasons for the refusal? Perhaps they are linked together and hold the primary view of the ECO.

Why did you need to secure an independent property inspection report?

Why not put the money into a savings account and then in 6 months re-apply using savings of £62500 as meeting the Financial Requirement.

It just seems to me that given your position it would be easier to secure a settle visa under new rules using savings. The savings would need to be under your control for 6 months, but you're already tied into a long term appeal and/or long term plan for re-application.
Just brainstorming:icon_rolleyes:

[Rb2004]

Hi,

Immigration barrister is located in the UK, we used them because they seemed good and a barrister we felt would be more beneficial in an appeal if it goes to a judge.

But to be honest they haven't been best help, they charged a lot of money, and for that just provided us with a list of things we need for the application.. They was supposed to check the supporting documents and feedback but a lot of the time they checked them said they was ok and didn't provide feedback.

Then we had to prepare the application, print everything out etc.. They filled in the application form and provided a cover letter from themselves.

So then we sent in the application, and to he fair the reasons for refusal was out fault because we should of and could of provided the evidence that was the justification for refusal better.


Here are the first 2 reasons, 3rd was financial which I'm still typing out.




While I note your engagement to your sponsor in the UK, you have provided no evidence of any marriage plans or preparations with your application form. The UK Border Agency’s online clearance guidance states at SET 1.18 “The ECO needs to be satisfied that it is intended that a marriage in the UK will take place. The law relating to marriage in England and Wales does not allow for any arrangements to be made with a Registrar until the foreign national has arrived in the UK. Of itself, a booking at a Registrar office or church is not proof that a marriage will take place. The ECO can reasonably expect the couple to have made some tentative plans for the wedding.
Any evidence that may be available that wedding arrangements are in hand may help in this respect” You have made no mention of a date or location for your proposed marriage on your application form and I note that your sponsor makes no mention in his covering letters. In the absence of any evidence I am not satisfied that you have made any marriage plans or preparations and thus that you are genuinely seeking entry to the UK to be married to your sponsor. I am therefore not satisfied that you meet the requirements of Paragraph 290(i) of the UK immigration Rules HC395 (as amended)

You state that you will reside with your sponsor in his family’s home. You state that your sponsor lives in his parental home together with his siblings and parents. You have not provided satisfactory evidence in respect of his accommodation that you propose to occupy. While you have provided a mortgage summary/statements and what looks like a copy of an estate agent’s flyer , no independently provided information has been provided as to the size, quality or present occupancy of this property. I am therefore unable to assess whether the accommodation you propose to occupy has sufficient bedrooms in the property for the size and gender mix of your family. Therefore I am not satisfied that the accommodation you propose to occupy has sufficient bedrooms in the property for the size and gender mix of your family. Therefore I am not satisfied that the accommodation you propose to occupy is capable of accommodating you and your sponsor without overcrowding as defined by the housing act 1985. Therefore I am not satisfied that the accommodation is secure or that there will be adequate accommodation for you and your sponsor to exclusively occupy without having recourse to public funds (including the provision of local authority housing and homelessness assistance). Therefore I am not satisfied that you meet the requirements of Paragraph 290(iv) of the UK immigration rules HC395 (as amended)



First one, I only mentioned that she was looking for a wedding dress, and provided photos of engagement ring and receipt.. So that could of been I proved upon... So I can understand that and feel that was a failure on the part of our advisor for not requesting further details that we needed to provide.

I have since provided with the appeal further details, like how we will attend our local registrar in grays, together, pay the fee and Post notice for the minimum period required, then return after that period and make a booking together at the soonest opportunity, and pay the deposit. Afrer once we have a dare we will write and distribute invites etc...

Then on the wedding day who will be our witnesses by name, rough estimate on guests... Where the reception will be held. Also again stated she is looking for a wedding dress.. But tried to provide as many detail as possible.

Again could of tried to make provisional booking but when I asked about it they was not very helpful at the registrar office on how I do this.

2nd one accommodation we included room sizes, and some photos and amount of bedrooms on the estate agent flyer which had those details on.

That obviously was not enough hence them declining on that reason.

So this time we paid a qualified surveyor who just does immigration related property inspection reports.. He came around here measured every room and did a proper report which we have now sent with the report.


So those 2 reasons for declining it I hope have now been satisfied. If so I hope they don't uphold their descision to decline the visa.

But after it was declined the barrister then charged us more money for working on the appeal, this time they filled in the appeal, I assume included a cover letter and our evidence and sent it off.. If it goes to judge they will also personally represent us infront of the judge.

Will post the 3rd financial reason in a bit once I've typed it up.

[stevie c]

Hi RBI so sorry to read about your visa refusal I truly hope that you have a successfull appeal I notice that you are from the grays area is that grays Thurrock me & my wife are from tilbury Thurrock 2 miles from grays

[Rb2004]

Hi yep I am also from the Thurrock area lol.

Here is the 3rd reason, which we always knew would be a problem.. That was why we hired a barrister in the first place.. Because the problem was more than enough funds exist easily to support her, I've been told that by our barrister.. And by a few other immigration advisors who also said in this situation common sense should prevail as with that amount of money sat in the bank it's very hard to say its not enough to support somebody for 6 months when it is an above normal amount of savings. But it's not exactly how they want to see the income in savings form they want to see incoming money and outgoing money.. And seem to have a view that's all that matters forget the fact somebody might have 6 years worth of 20k a year income sat in a bank. Which was always going to be a big hurdle and problem.



You state that your sponsor is self-employed. As evidence of your sponsors financial circumstances and commitments you have provided a letter from him explaining his circumstances and some invoices for work he has been undertaken as well as a tax return. You have not provided any other evidence of your sponsor’s finances. In the absence of this evidence or a P60 tax certificate I am unable to ascertain whether he has sufficient income to meet the costs of your maintenance in the UK. However I note though that you have also provided a letter and sponsorship undertaking form from your sponsor’s father in which he indicates that he will support you in the UK. It would appear though that this person is not engaged in formal employment and therefore does not have a regular income. No satisfactory evidence of his formal employment and income has been provided. Although you have provided a bank book for an account held jointly by your sponsors father and mother, a further bank book for an account held jointly by your sponsors father and his brother (sponsors uncle) and a statement for funds held by your sponsors uncle. You have however not provided a letter from your sponsors uncle to indicate that he has given authorisation for his statement of funds being used as evidence with your application and no evidence that he agrees to the funds being used for your maintenance in the UK. Likewise you have provided no evidence that he agrees to the funds held jointly with your sponsors father being used for your maintenance. You have provided no evidence to satisfy me that the funds shown in your sponsors parents account would be genuinely available to meet your maintenance costs. In view of the above I am not satisfied that you and your sponsor will be able to adequately maintain and accommodate yourselves without recourse to public funds or your taking employment. I am therefore not satisfied you meet the requirements of Paragraph 290(iv) and (vi) of the UK immigration rules HC395 (as amended)


The letters not provided by my parents and uncle were not told to us as a requirement by our immigration advisor again.. A bit of a failure again on their part but their argument was we could of provided the letters then they find something else to refuse it on.

We have now provided the letters from my uncle and parents outlining use of the bank account funds for her maintenance and support, permission from my uncle to use his bank statement of funds and use of the money etc.. So again hoping that reason for declining it no longer exists. But with family as supportive as mine, with that amount of money in the bank the likely hood of us claiming benefits or council housing is nill.. Even more so when we own multiple properties which I'm allowed free use of rent free.. Why would somebody give up a rent free option and take a council house? A bit of a lapse of common sense on their part or just a n excuse to hide behind? My uncle was even prepared to sign one of the properties over to me, but we agreed not to because of the tax id have to pay. So idea is once she is here and settled he will let us move into one, house will still be his but we will be the one to just pay for the day to day bills.

[Rb2004]

Regarding, £62,500 in savings under new rules, I thought that you still had to show an income just a reduced amount?

[Rb2004]

I just posted the 3rd refusal point but it said needs approval first?

[Manila_Paul]

2nd one accommodation we included room sizes, and some photos and amount of bedrooms on the estate agent flyer which had those details on.

That obviously was not enough hence them declining on that reason.

So this time we paid a qualified surveyor who just does immigration related property inspection reports.. He came around here measured every room and did a proper report which we have now sent with the report

This is the one that seems very harsh. I've seen plenty of people who've just done as you did and had no issues. And indeed, we've just included pictures of the 3 bedrooms, stated the room sizes and the deeds to the house in our application. I can only guess that the number of people in the property might have been a cause for concern for this ECO? Still, it seems odd and overly harsh.

[Rb2004]

This is the one that seems very harsh. I've seen plenty of people who've just done as you did and had no issues. And indeed, we've just included pictures of the 3 bedrooms, stated the room sizes and the deeds to the house in our application. I can only guess that the number of people in the property might have been a cause for concern for this ECO? Still, it seems odd and overly harsh.

Yep it was, and while it was our mistake not to include more a the time main problem is financials.

They want to see things like incomings, outgoings, bank statements and that's all they know. But they don't seem capable of utilising common sense sometimes that if sufficient income is available in other ways then that is enough to ensure somebody will not use state handouts.

Truth is as well, but just my opinion lol but I found out after that it was just our luck that the ECO who reviewed the application is actually a head entry clearance officer for the region of Fiji and Papua new gineau. So probably being in that position he is more likely to be awkward and deliberately follow the regulations to the letter.

I found that info out because I read an online article that said he travelled to Fiji and Papua new gineau with mobile biometric equipment to process the visa applications for the Olympic teams there.

So he is a person of authority.

[bigmarco]

I'd be a bit nervous about the Barrister representing you at the appeal. He really doesn't seem to have helped much up to now.
I'd be tempted to change for the appeal.

[Rb2004]

Yep lol me also, just hoping it will be ok.. Difference will be though "I hope" that previously it was their office workers who were the ones dealing with applications and appeals but when it comes to representation I hope it will be an actual barrister.

Just too late now to change.. Like all these people they make sure they have their money up front so they have been paid for an appeal.

When it comes to the 2nd part of the visa, settlement which I understand will be an extension of the fiancé visa so considered under old rules (if fiancé visa granted) then I will change because no doubt will have to go through all this financial evidence again.. Next year I will hopefully have a higher income to demonstrate, but with her fiancé visa only valid for 6 months probably won't be soon enough, and it will be harder again if she has to leave the country again.. So need good legal help

[Manila_Paul]

Yep it was, and while it was our mistake not to include more a the time main problem is financials.

They want to see things like incomings, outgoings, bank statements and that's all they know. But they don't seem capable of utilising common sense sometimes that if sufficient income is available in other ways then that is enough to ensure somebody will not use state handouts.

Truth is as well, but just my opinion lol but I found out after that it was just our luck that the ECO who reviewed the application is actually a head entry clearance officer for the region of Fiji and Papua new gineau. So probably being in that position he is more likely to be awkward and deliberately follow the regulations to the letter.

I found that info out because I read an online article that said he travelled to Fiji and Papua new gineau with mobile biometric equipment to process the visa applications for the Olympic teams there.

So he is a person of authority.

I do vaguely remember something about only turning it down on these grounds if there was a concern that there was likely to be overcrowding. So it looks like it can largely come down to discretion. That was the old rules anyway but then you applied under those?

This would back up the theory about more people in the property being a concern for this ECO. But again, I remember something about requesting more evidence if their was any concerns on this front? Although I suppose there is probably no need to do that if they're also turning it down on other grounds as well? I suspect if this was the only issue, the visa would have been granted.

[Rb2004]

I do vaguely remember something about only turning it down on these grounds if there was a concern that there was likely to be overcrowding. So it looks like it can largely come down to discretion. That was the old rules anyway but then you applied under those?

This would back up the theory about more people in the property being a concern for this ECO. But again, I remember something about requesting more evidence if their was any concerns on this front? Although I suppose there is probably no need to do that if they're also turning it down on other grounds as well? I suspect if this was the only issue, the visa would have been granted.

Hi, yep it was under the old rules, maybe... The other 2 reasons was he wasn't convinced a marriage would take place and concerns over finances.. I dunno what happened to my finances reply lol the 3rd reason I posted it and it said something about needing moderator approval first.

[lastlid]

In terms of property, under the old rules, we just provided a copy of the tenancy agreement on our apartment and a letter from the landlord outlining the number of rooms, overall square footage and who the occupiers would be i.e. me and my wife.

That seemed to suffice.

I too used an agent (not a solicitor). It did cross my mind that they might, initially, put in a half cocked application in on our behalf to get the business on an appeal, but looking back this was not the case and we got the visa without a problem.

[grahamw48]

I just can't believe what I'm reading...what with EU immigrant criminals etc being allowed in by the millions. :NoNo:

I wish you the very best of luck with your application/appeal and also suggest that you stick with your legal representation, as this will hopefully put the wind up the UKBA and encourage them to fold rather than wasting more public money.

May I also suggest that you contact your local MP and seek help from him or her.

[Rb2004]

I just can't believe what I'm reading...what with EU immigrant criminals etc being allowed in by the millions. :NoNo:

I wish you the very best of luck with your application/appeal and also suggest that you stick with your legal representation, as this will hopefully put the wind up the UKBA and encourage them to fold rather than wasting more public money.

May I also suggest that you contact your local MP and seek help from him or her.

Yep I don't want to annoy anyone on here, but there's lots of problems with the immigration system, which need fixing.. But instead with the new rules they targeted British citizens trying to get their partners.

Work permits springs to mind, 1 person comes here to work on a permit, then they are allowed to get their husband, then their children.. And they end up with citizenship... Also seen a few cases where they even manage to somehow fiddle the system and get other relatives here as essentially baby sitters or nanny... Government then keeps extending their visa as well until they end up with indefinite stay.

Is it just me or does that seem wrong? Other countries you go there to work and that's all you do, you can't get your family and when your contract ends you return home.

But it is things like that compounding the immigration problem, and instead of fixing it, and like you say EU criminals and EU migrants flocking here they chose to target their own citizens.

[Terpe]

Regarding, £62,500 in savings under new rules, I thought that you still had to show an income just a reduced amount?

Here's what UKBA say:-



Income £
Leave to enter/remain:
Savings required
Further leave to remain:
Savings required
Indefinite leave to remain:
Savings required


No income
£62,500
(16k+ (18,600 x 2.5))
£62,500
(16k+ (18,600 x 2.5))
£34,600
(16k+ 18,600)


Income of £15,000
£25,000
(16k+ (3,600 x 2.5))
£25,000
(16k+ (3,600 x 2.5))
£19,600
(16k+ 3,600)


Income of £18,000
£17,500
(16k+ (600 x 2.5))
£17,500
(16k+ (600 x 2.5))
£16,600
(16k+ 600)



Just food for thought
Hope it helps

[Rb2004]

Thanks for the best luck, and to everyone who has given feedback and advice so far :) it's much appreciated.

I want to write to my mp and Stephen Lillie but don't know what to say.. In my mind now we have provided the extra evidence like the letters, property inspection report and details on wedding plans id hope there is no reason to decline it any more.

Money exists, accommodation exists.. We have proved that.

But I can't help but think they will still try to uphold their descision purely on the fact that they want to see regular income and outgoings etc... Even if common sense should prevail.

Guess that's 1 advantage of the court hearing. ECO go by rules and want evidence as per their list of requirements and if you don't provide evidence in the way they want it then no visa, whereas a judge might make descisions based on bare facts... And I'm hoping like in our situation take the view we are and the barrister that its insanity to say there's no money just because its not a monthly income when any idiot can see there's sufficient amounts sat in the bank.

[grahamw48]

Yep I don't want to annoy anyone on here, but there's lots of problems with the immigration system, which need fixing.. But instead with the new rules they targeted British citizens trying to get their partners.

Work permits springs to mind, 1 person comes here to work on a permit, then they are allowed to get their husband, then their children.. And they end up with citizenship... Also seen a few cases where they even manage to somehow fiddle the system and get other relatives here as essentially baby sitters or nanny... Government then keeps extending their visa as well until they end up with indefinite stay.

Is it just me or does that seem wrong? Other countries you go there to work and that's all you do, you can't get your family and when your contract ends you return home.

But it is things like that compounding the immigration problem, and instead of fixing it, and like you say EU criminals and EU migrants flocking here they chose to target their own citizens.

I think you will find a lot of members here are sympathetic with your frustrations regarding the crazy immigration situation right now.
It IS grossly unfair to British citizens...and in particular members of the forum who like yourself simply wish to marry whom they choose.

I also have a half-Filipino son (now 19), hence my interest. :smile:

(See if you can arrange a meeting at one of your MP's 'surgeries').

[Rb2004]

I think you will find a lot of members here are sympathetic with your frustrations regarding the crazy immigration situation right now.
It IS grossly unfair to British citizens...and in particular members of the forum who like yourself simply wish to marry whom they choose.

I also have a half-Filipino son (now 19), hence my interest. :smile:

(See if you can arrange a meeting at one of your MP's 'surgeries').

Hi, yep it is frustrating lol worst part is not knowing what will happen and the fact it drags out over months would any word of contact.

Hence why I wanted to know if there's anything I can do at this point to help the situation or speed it up.

Will have a look regarding the mp surgery haven't heard of that before lol.

[bigmarco]

I would write to Stephen Lillee now as from what you have said your appeal is in Manila at the moment. It will do no harm to contact your MP aswell.
I agree with having representation but I just question whether you have the right person acting for you. When I appealed and got a hearing date I contacted a Solicitor who asked to see the appeal pack first. When she read that, she agreed to do the case and said that she would be shocked if she lost the case. I know that wasn't a guarantee but it made me feel that more confident in giving her £1100 to represent us.
What's your barrister saying.
If you PM me your email address I can forward you a copy of an email a friend sent to the ambassador. It may be of some help as his refusal was overturned by the ECM.

[Rb2004]

I would write to Stephen Lillee now as from what you have said your appeal is in Manila at the moment. It will do no harm to contact your MP aswell.
I agree with having representation but I just question whether you have the right person acting for you. When I appealed and got a hearing date I contacted a Solicitor who asked to see the appeal pack first. When she read that, she agreed to do the case and said that she would be shocked if she lost the case. I know that wasn't a guarantee but it made me feel that more confident in giving her £1100 to represent us.
What's your barrister saying.
If you PM me your email address I can forward you a copy of an email a friend sent to the ambassador. It may be of some help as his refusal was overturned by the ECM.


Hi yep that is what I would like to do, because the evidence we sent for the appeal shows money exists and adequate accommodation.. I've also provided as many details of marriage plans as I could.

The barrister, we contacted these people.. http://www.ukimmigrationbarristers.com/

Who we later on found out are like a go between..

The actual barristers they put us in touch with were these people

http://kingscourtchambers.com/immigration.php

They charged, £1500 to sort out a fiancé visa and after the settlement visa... £750 each one all up front... Which is why it was £1500.

We got access to an online portal where they provided a list of all the documents they wanted for our application.. We uploaded them all, and they was supposed to check and feedback if any problems with the uploaded information... Only feedback we really got was that the letters needed a signature mostly... Rest of the time they just locked in the stuff we uploaded with no feedback.

After we had everything we then assumed being we uploaded everything they would put the application together.. But that was not the case, they did the online application for us and completed it, and provided us with a 10 page written cover letter quoting things like European convention on human rights and how declining it would breach my rights.. And other stuff backing up the evidence and application like any other cover letter etc. but we had to print everything out and pay to send it to Manila via ups.

Then it got declined, and the letters which the ukba said they wanted like letter from my parents and uncle confirming use of their money for her maintenance was not requested by the barrister from us... But whole time I got the impression it was usually a team of office workers who was supposed to be specialists rather than an actual barrister... Barrister was probably just overseeing it.

Then they said that it would cost another £1500 for them to do the appeal and represent us infront of the judge.. So they was going to take the £750 which we had paid them for the settlement visa application and put that towards the appeal then we had to pay another £750 to top it up and make the £1500.

So for her settlement visa we will use somebody else next time. We went with a barrister because we felt rhey would be better infront of a judge situation if it went to appeals and also barristers are supposed to be 1 up from solicitors. Which should of given us a better chance of success.

Since it got declined, barrister has only phoned us once, that was before we appealed and he didnt say much other than it should not of been declined and stated that there is money there to support us.. And that even if they did ask for the letters they might of declined it on something else instead and that in some respects it's better going court because the judge will base a descision on what's infront of him so if he feels theres money enough to support somebody that will be how they make their descision rather than is the money only in a certain format...and you get a chance to explain.. Rather than making descisions based on rules.

But it's hard to talk to them because they have this online portal and all communication is done through there.. If you try to phone them because its office teams working on it they don't have a mechanism to talk to an individual.

Thanks will pm you.

[Rb2004]

I would write to Stephen Lillee now as from what you have said your appeal is in Manila at the moment. It will do no harm to contact your MP aswell.
I agree with having representation but I just question whether you have the right person acting for you. When I appealed and got a hearing date I contacted a Solicitor who asked to see the appeal pack first. When she read that, she agreed to do the case and said that she would be shocked if she lost the case. I know that wasn't a guarantee but it made me feel that more confident in giving her £1100 to represent us.
What's your barrister saying.
If you PM me your email address I can forward you a copy of an email a friend sent to the ambassador. It may be of some help as his refusal was overturned by the ECM.


Here's what UKBA say:-



Income £
Leave to enter/remain:
Savings required
Further leave to remain:
Savings required
Indefinite leave to remain:
Savings required


No income
£62,500
(16k+ (18,600 x 2.5))
£62,500
(16k+ (18,600 x 2.5))
£34,600
(16k+ 18,600)


Income of £15,000
£25,000
(16k+ (3,600 x 2.5))
£25,000
(16k+ (3,600 x 2.5))
£19,600
(16k+ 3,600)


Income of £18,000
£17,500
(16k+ (600 x 2.5))
£17,500
(16k+ (600 x 2.5))
£16,600
(16k+ 600)



Just food for thought
Hope it helps

Thanks, didnt realise you could have 64k and no income and they accepted that, just thought it was ,£18,600 income or over that was acceptable.

If that's acceptable now, then really they should consider double that now to be sufficient. When my family has pledged that the money is available and we have permission to use it.

But for some reason they didnt.

Would contacting Stephen Lillie increase the chances of granting the visa?

I tried to pm but it doesn't allow me to or show as an option?

[Terpe]

I feel you need to understand a little about the requirements.
Under the old rules it's YOUR regular disposable income that is key.

Under the new rules when it comes to savings, those funds need to be in YOUR name and legally under YOUR own control for at least 6 months prior to application.
It's just not going to be good enough that combined 'family' assets are put forward.

No offence intended, but I feel that you were quite badly represented by your immigration advisor, and that you entered into the application submission without any basic understanding.

Just regarding the appeal, technically you're not allowed to submit NEW evidence. The correct evidence should have been submitted at the time of application. However, it's often the case that the 'judge' does allow a little extra new evidence if it's felt that it's fair and just. Discretion.

Are you personally convinced that your disposable income meets requirement?
Forget assets and savings that is of little consequence under old rules.
Have you presented bank statements and other supporting documents that clearly show a disposable income (after deductions for accommodation, secured loans, council tax etc) of at least £111.45 per week ?
You appeal cannot succeed if you just don't meet the basic rules.

We have seen many forum members whose income (even accommodation) has been highly marginal, but they worked hard to present the documentary evidence to clearly demonstrate that immigration rules were met and their visa's were granted.

I really believe, you need to keep on top of the activities of your advisors.
They are the ones who should be linking everything to the rules to prove compliance.
Please push them and request to see their work, you've paid for it.

Visa application is a very serious and expensive business.

Sorry if my line is hard, I mean no offence. I just want to help if I can.

[lastlid]

I really believe, you need to keep on top of the activities of your advisors.
They are the ones who should be linking everything to the rules to prove compliance.
Please push them and request to see their work, you've paid for it.


This is a fair point of Terpe's. I was in constant contact with my advisor.

[Rb2004]

I was in contact with them but it was hard because they didnt have a number you could call on.. All contact was trough an online portal unless they wanted to contact us. Then they called us.

Otherwise it was just posting messages back and forth.

My own personal income was not enough I knew that from the out set, and first solicitor I spoke to said they could get round that by doing a dead of gift transferring legal ownership of money from my uncle to me. Only problem is then id also be liable for tax.

But I was advised on another forum like this by members that would be a dodgy thing to do because its showing money where no money exists or something were their similar words, and to be weary of a legal representative offering to do that..

Then we contacted that first website which we found out was a go between and it was a bit hard sell and we fell for it...

But they knew the facts and circumstances before taking us on as a client we told them everything and they contacted the barrister relaying the situation who then agreed to take on the case and was told if they didnt think they had a chance they wouldn't take it on.. As it would effect their numbers if they were loosing cases. But they knowingly took us on as clients with the facts about income existing within the family only, and they said because it would be my parent who fills in the sponsorship undertaking form they would become the application sponsor.

[joebloggs]

No offence intended, but I feel that you were quite badly represented by your immigration advisor, and that you entered into the application submission without any basic understanding.

Just regarding the appeal, technically you're not allowed to submit NEW evidence. The correct evidence should have been submitted at the time of application. However, it's often the case that the 'judge' does allow a little extra new evidence if it's felt that it's fair and just. Discretion.


I have to agree with that, the fact is that they refused you for 3 different reasons, the immigration advisers that you used should have had an idea this might happen from what you submitted and ask you to submit the evidence you sent when you appealed.

[Rb2004]

I realise that now, can't do a lot about it now though as it is too late, they have taken their money and are half way through an appeal.

Just a shame that if the appeal fails we would of spent £2250 on their fees to no avail.. And a wasted £950 visa fee.

Probably should of gone with first solicitor but on another forum I was told the proposal to do a dead of gift would be a dodgy practice and they seemed to frown upon the idea.

Then we contacted uk immigration barristers who hard sold the service to us and put us in touch with these barristers.

[joebloggs]

you right about the gift of money, the embassy would probably want to know where any large deposits came from if this sum of money was showing on any of your bank statements you submitted.

[joebloggs]

when did you appeal? did you write a letter to the ECM manger asking for reconsideration when you found out they had refused your visa ??

[Rb2004]

Appeal was submitted by the barrister back in July and we then received a letter saying after January 6th 2012 we would hear something from the courts.

I dunno what the barrister submitted in the form of letters asking for reconsideration.

They filled in the appeal form, and asked us for the letters the Eco wanted to see which he used as an excuse to decline. So we submitted wedding plan details, letter from parents and uncle allowing use of their funds for her support and use of their bank statements.. As well as the property inspection report.

Then they did the rest, next we heard from the courts saying we would hear something after January 6th

[joebloggs]

that's 6 months of your life's put on hold thou :NoNo:

well hopefully the judge will accept your new evidence and you'll be granted your visa :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Rb2004]

that's 6 months of your life's put on hold thou :NoNo:

well hopefully the judge will accept your new evidence and you'll be granted your visa :xxgrinning--00xx3:


Yep 6 months.

I was hoping that a judge would be a little more impartial to the rules being they don't work for the ukba.. Hence HM courts and why government have had so much trouble with immigration cases on grounds of human rights which was annoying the government.

So I was hoping that a judge would look at it and say.. Adequate accommodation exists, parents and uncle have been supportive and pledged to support the application.. They have more than sufficient finances to carry out this pledge of support and use a little common sense that we wouldn't be resorting to public funds.. And over rule the decision.

Otherwise if judge is just going to write off the above average family assets and keep coming back to my income then it's just gonna get declined again.

In which case I've got a 2nd business which will hopefully return more quicker than my existing one and should meet the income requirement.

Or failing that I have found if I move to another European country for 6 months I can easily get her to somewhere like Poland because their rules are less strict.. Then under eu law I can bring her here freely with me and get married here as normal.

But the reason why I am in this situation and needing family support.. Not that the border agency would care is that I'm still quite young... Almost 26 and before I met my fiancé I was never really planning for any of this... I suffer from anxiety and easily get depressed... been on anti depressants a few times and sleeping pills lol.. because I struggle and find it hard to deal with pressure. So For me it is hard to do a normal job... Which ok is my problem everyone else manages I know.

That's why I'm self employed, because being self employed and working online or also with computers I can manage my workload...if I need time out because things are getting too much I can take it.. Or I can do other things to distract me and keep my work varied then get on with my usual work at night.. Something I often do, work late at night when it's quiet and get on with my work building websites and programming software for clients, or if its repairing computers I can leave them updating or reinstalling and walk off doing other things..or sometimes during the daytime I do other things unrelated to my computer work like odd jobs for people lol I'm quite skilled so I do lots of various things... or helping out my dad and uncle with renovating homes to rent and stuff.

But as above because I wasn't really planning for any of this prior to meeting my fiancé my business is steadily gaining income but it hadn't reached the amount required for a visa application as 2-3 years ago I wasn't even thinking I'd need it.

And of course because as a family as I said previously we are quite supportive of one another it means when I'm not working I help them out as well so that's not really paid income, as I'm helping my uncle and dad with the houses i don't get a wage for that.

But my income was enough for me and my family support me and I support them.

Mortgages weren't a concern to me really because the reason my uncle has his houses is because he is unmarried and he had nothing else to spend his earnings on before he retired so he iust brought houses...and because he is unmarried he just said he will sign one over to me later on or they will be mine and my brothers inheritance in the future and my parents also own 2 houses.

So because I was single and had nothing like mortgages to worry about I just concentrated on earning as much as I needed to buy the things I wanted and help out with the bills in the house.. Guess that's a bit of a Filipino trait lol wanting to help your family.

But because I do suffer from anxiety and depression, and I know some English girls won't be able to put up with that easily.. My mum wanted me to marry a Filipino and so when I went to the Philippines, My cousins friend... My now fiancé went to our house in the Philippines.. Because we have property there as well and that's where I was staying because my cousins also live there... And that's how we met, she liked me and we got on well.. Started talking and I just let myself go for it because she's a nice person and we get on.. She loves me and has a genuine care for me so in my mind something clicked and I said to myself I'm lonely and if I let this chance go then I might not find somebody like her again and also because I'm getting a bit older now I needed to start thinking about serious things like being responsible for myself, getting married, having a family lol and settling down.

But prior to meeting her I wasn't imagining any of that happening any time soon so I never planned for it.. Then it happened and now I can't prove to the ukba my income is sufficient.

Which is why my family, uncle and parents are the ones willing to put up the money and help support her for me until I can.
Because my uncle never married so he knows how lonely it can be.. He's always at our house lol, and my mum wants to see my married because she likes my fiancé and she worries if something happens to her god forbid what will happen to me if I have nobody to look after me... Because of my anxiety and depression... So that's why my family are trying hard to help me.

That's why I've now setup a 2nd business with the help of my uncle because that's kind of my plan B if 1 business isn't showing enough income for the new £18,600 then 2 businesses might so after another 12 month wait once I've got next years tax return after next summer I can show a better income.

Only good thing about new rules being they just wanna see £18,600 is I might be able to declare a higher level of income than I actually earned... I'd have to pay more tax on income I hadn't actually earned but if I have a tax return saying 18,600 or over I can use that as proof of income.

Can understand tax man caring if I declare a lower value lol but a higher value means more money in their pocket.

So I do have options at least

But while I appreciate why the UKBA wants to see bank statements so they can get a picture of your income and outgoings... They do place an over reliance on them as evidence, because for self employed people,Vincent cable the business secretary, actually said he sees no problem with cash in hand and its not morally wrong unless it is declared... I also took this up with hmrc and they agreed there's no problem with it as long as its declared.

But it does pose a problem when you need to submit statements to people like the ukba... Because when it comes to computer repair work its all cash payment usually, I do provide full receipts to customers and I do declare that income... And that income showed up on my tax return which I submitted to the ukba. So I'm not evading tax or doing anything morally wrong.

But because it is cash payments like most people it tends to be that you do a job, paid in cash, then some of that cash is spent directly on fuel, shopping or supplies without going through the bank. Which after confirming with hmrc is not wrong as long as its declared... And it's more so for limited companies where they prefer every penny to go through a bank account as limited companies have to keep more accurate and detailed accounts.

So not all the money earned and declared is visible on a bank statement and like in my case, my bank is 10 miles away.. So I can't get there every day.

So how do u show accurate income and outgoings?

Unless they wanna do my tax return for me lol I can send them all my fuel receipts and bills and they can add them all up alongside all my receipts to see my income.

Tax return shows profit and loss accounts anyway. But they didnt see it as sufficient I don't think

[lastlid]

I was in contact with them but it was hard because they didnt have a number you could call on.. All contact was trough an online portal unless they wanted to contact us. Then they called us.


Ah. Well, I had phone contact. I wasn't able to abuse it but was able to use it if need be and did so. If there was something that was urgent then I was able to call the advisor immediately or one of her colleagues.

I also had good email contact, normally with a reply within 24 hours on a weekday and more often than not just a matter of a few hours.

[Rb2004]

Hi, Thanks for the reply.

From the previous posts on here, sounds like I will be better off just waiting for it to go to court than trying to write MP letters and to Stephen Lillie... for simple reason that my income was never enough on its own.. and due to my reliance on external sponsors.. and this application proceeding on poor immigration advisor advice, needless to say I wont be using them any more after the amount they have charged for so far jack all... going to find another barrister to use next time and get in touch with the law society regarding this one.

So best hope is that the judge will be a little more impartial, looking at on the basis that I have an above average amount of family support, and their written pledges of support from them financially and overturn it based on that... which the ECM and ECO probably wouldnt be prepared to do as they will be looking for reasons to decline and follow the rules to the letter and because my income alone is not sufficient then that will be a declination again.

So just going to wait it out and give up hoping for a Visa this year now.

Then next year if the judge wont overturn it look at my other options, like moving to another european country temporarily and getting her there instead and using the european family route.

Looking at Italys immigration rules, they look quite relaxed and from what I can see have an attitude towards interfering in family life being a catholic country with the Vatican etc, and both of us are catholics.... they always do amnestys as well so it shows how lapse their rules are.

Im going to try writing to a shadow labour MP.. saw their name somewhere... they was completely opposed to the current immigration rules.. they had the better idea, of wanting to push for a system whereby you pay a bond of £10k and if you claim benefits they take the money back out the bond.

lol just had to delete a large portion of this.. because I have a bit of pent up anger inside about these rules because I see so many things which are wrong about the immigration system and its rules..so I started to rant.. but it feels better to type it down even if I do delete it.. but so many people abusing it and laughing at the UKBA.. and yet all I want is to get married, and live a happy life and the government is penalising me for wanting that.

Yes their rules are there for a reason, to filter out the people who genuinely cant afford to support somebody without public recourse... but I am not in that category because I have an above average amount of family support... and if it wasnt for them following their rules to the letter any idiot can see im not going to be relying on public funds.

[lastlid]

A barrister isn't necessary. An OISC approved Immigration Advisor is what I used.

http://oisc.homeoffice.gov.uk/

Ring around a few. Discuss your case with them before you decide on one. Many give away free information to get you on board.