Looks like its kicking off again

[andy222]

Israel and Palestine.:doh with a double c.:icon_lol:

[grahamw48]

Yep, and now our generous govt. is also talking about helping out the poor Syrians, so MORE wasted taxpayers' money and MORE allah be praised blinkin asylum-seekers on the way. :NoNo:

[andy222]

Yes where will it all end? I can see the israeli flag being burned in london.:doh

[KeithD]

I have no problem if we help the Syrian civilians, spending my tax money on saving women and children is much preferred to paying smackheads dole.

The Israeli government and military are more of a right-wing terrorist group than Hamas. The Israeli government and military keep trying to make out they are the victims...DUH!!! YOU ARE THE OCCUPYING ENEMY FORCE :action-smiley-081: GET IT IN YOUR THICK SKULL.

I feel sorry for the Israeli people, they voted in the more moderate party but not having enough of a majority to rule, the two right-wing parties got together and took over :cwm3: With splits in the government over the last year or so and an election in January the right-wing :action-smiley-081:'oles are trying to make a point, but in reality you are just confirming what the majority of the world already know, those in charge are murderous scumbags.

[andy222]

My thoughts are we should not get involved. Already William Hague is shouting his mouth off.:hubbahubba:

[KeithD]

May as well sit back and watch the slaughter of innocent women and children ..... AGAIN!!! It's all the West ever seems to do these days, and in a few years we'll have a multi £Million report on how useless NATO was. They've just released the one on Sri Lanka when we sat back then and let the slaughter continue. So much for a civilised human race :crazy:

[andy222]

So what should we do win? Send our forces out to get killed again?:doh. They are paid to protect this country not others.

[KeithD]

So what should we do win? Send our forces out to get killed again?:doh. They are paid to protect this country not others.

We never lost any in Libya, only the wars we followed the Yanks into.

[andy222]

I agree but we always follow the yanks. Only one PM has said no to them. But I still think we should keep our noses out. Just my opinion. I disagree with a lot of things ie giving money and I might add its my tax money too to pakistan. I believe the money is falling into the talibans hands and not helping the poor like it should be.

[stevie c]

I say leave them to it neither country would help us out if we was in this situation..... I don't want to see any more young Brit soldiers get killed we lost enough in Iraq, Afghanistan where we should not of been involved that's my honest opinion

[bigmarco]

I have no problem if we help the Syrian civilians, spending my tax money on saving women and children is much preferred to paying smackheads dole.

The Israeli government and military are more of a right-wing terrorist group than Hamas. The Israeli government and military keep trying to make out they are the victims...DUH!!! YOU ARE THE OCCUPYING ENEMY FORCE :action-smiley-081: GET IT IN YOUR THICK SKULL.

I feel sorry for the Israeli people, the voted in the more moderate party but not having enough of a majority to rule, the two right-wing parties got together and took over :cwm3: With splits in the government over the last year or so and an election in January the right-wing :action-smiley-081:'oles are trying to make a point, but in reality you are just confirming what the majority of the world already know, those in charge are murderous scumbags.

What an excellent post and so very true.
Israel quite literally gets away with murder and the world refuses to act. It doesn't always require a military intervention but simply a bit of courage on the part of the US and British governments to stand up and say that if you cant resolve your issues then the money and arms will no longer be available.
Palestinian Women and Children are being slaughtered on a regular basis and we all say nothing because it's Israel. Shame on Us :cwm23:

[andy222]

Well according to Mr Hague the palestinians started it. Israel in this instance has a right to defend their country. If we were attacked by france what would we be expected to do?

[bigmarco]

Well according to Mr Hague the palestinians started it. Israel in this instance has a right to defend their country. If we were attacked by france what would we be expected to do?

Andy this is the thing. They will always justify what Israel does as will the Americans.

[andy222]

There will never be peace there marco. Let them get on with it and we should keep our nose out. Our boys and girls have been dragged into conflicts before kuwait iraq and afghan. To what success I ask you? Answer none. So I say let them fight it out. All I am saying is if america and we get involved it will be a bloodbath.

[stevie c]

How many Israeli life's have been lost due to the constant missiles fired across the border from these Islamist fanatics as Andy says Israel has aright to its own people to protect them

[imagine]

seems to be 2 sides to this story , i dont think il ever figure which is the offender,

iv seen some terrible photos of what isrial troops have done to what seems innocent palastine people ,women and children, and wonder if this is only showing the one side of it,

iv heard of bombs and human palastinian suicide bombs against innocent israil people,

each side seems to claim the holy land belongs to them,

leave them to it, we cant afford to get involved, israel has plenty of fire power to defend themselves,
their problems have been for many years and will never be solved

[KeithD]

Some people miss the point.... Israel is an invading army occupying Palestinian land. Hamas is basically the Palastinian Army. So a country has been invaded, and the army is fighting back, as we would do if France invaded our land. The Israeli's started it decades ago, not the Palestinians who had lived there a damn site longer than the Jews. Simple as that.

Israel need to pull back to the UN agreed borders, and then sit down for peace talks. You can't expect Palestine to talk peace when they have an invading army and settlers on there land. :doh



How many Israeli life's have been lost due to the constant missiles fired across the border from these Islamist fanatics as Andy says Israel has aright to its own people to protect them

About 12 Israeli military in the last major flare up 4 years ago, and 1,400+ Palestinians, the vast majority civilians. Israel also committed war crimes according to the official UN report.

[Michael Parnham]

Al Jazeera news will tell the true story I'm sure.

[bigmarco]

There will never be peace there marco. Let them get on with it and we should keep our nose out. Our boys and girls have been dragged into conflicts before kuwait iraq and afghan. To what success I ask you? Answer none. So I say let them fight it out. All I am saying is if america and we get involved it will be a bloodbath.

I'm not for our troops being involved Andy. But we live in a world of pro Israeli Politics and a pro Israeli media.
Here's an old clip of a Jewish MP advising the house that Israel is behaving like Nazi's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

[bigmarco]

A jew calling for an arms ban on Israel.

[stevie c]

Some people miss the point.... Israel is an invading army occupying Palestinian land. Hamas is basically the Palastinian Army. So a country has been invaded, and the army is fighting back, as we would do if France invaded our land. The Israeli's started it decades ago, not the Palestinians who had lived there a damn site longer than the Jews. Simple as that.

Israel need to pull back to the UN agreed borders, and then sit down for peace talks. You can't expect Palestine to talk peace when they have an invading army and settlers on there land. :doh



About 12 Israeli military in the last major flare up 4 years ago, and 1,400+ Palestinians, the vast majority civilians. Israel also committed war crimes according to the official UN report.

How many civilians in the suicide bombings across the border targeting local cafes on a busy shopping time....it doesn't matter if it's one killing or one hundred killings it is still needless killings. Makes you think when Britain occupied half the world no seemed to bothered then

[KeithD]

How many civilians in the suicide bombings across the border targeting local cafes on a busy shopping time....it doesn't matter if it's one killing or one hundred killings it is still needless killings. Makes you think when Britain occupied half the world no seemed to bothered then

That's because our invading forces were more advanced than those overthrown. Once things started to equal out we lost the control. Israel is currently the advanced military force who is choosing, and has admitted it, to overthrow any hope the Palestinians have of a country of their own.

As with the French resistance which Britain supported during the war, murder of opposite supporters was part of the course by any means possible, even if that involved the death of civilians, as long as it worked towards the end game of getting the invading force out.

[andy222]

So what has it got to do with us? Its not our war. That attitude has got us into trouble in the past. Like I said let them get on with it.

[KeithD]

What we should have done during the IRA years is build cities within Eire, place 10,000's troops along the border, and bomb Belfast with our jets :xxgrinning--00xx3: ..... as that is exactly the scenario with Israel.

I can't wait till 2030 :biggrin: Arabs in Israel now have over 50% of the population, and so when they get to voting age you can bet mass changes will be coming, and yet today's politicians are so short-sighted and interested only in their own careers they can't see that :doh

[andy222]

Like I said win. What has this got to do with us?.

[KeithD]

Like I said win. What has this got to do with us?.

Nothing, unless you are heartless and couldn't care less about women and children being murdered on a daily basis for months on end.

[andy222]

Maybe we should bring them all over here then? I am not heartless of coarse I feel sorry for them just like they would for us I suppose. But they wouldnt help us.

[stevie c]

Nothing, unless you are heartless and couldn't care less about women and children being murdered on a daily basis for months on end.

Keith there are women & children getting killed on both sides whether it's 10 or 100
It doesn't matter the fact is there shouldn't be any women or children getting killed from any side

[KeithD]

You'll find, as with Israel, the vast majority of civilians dying is due to the army with overwhelming force.... the Americans have proved that :doh

[imagine]

What we should have done during the IRA years is build cities within Eire, place 10,000's troops along the border, and bomb Belfast with our jets :xxgrinning--00xx3: ..... as that is exactly the scenario with Israel.

I can't wait till 2030 :biggrin: Arabs in Israel now have over 50% of the population, and so when they get to voting age you can bet mass changes will be coming, and yet today's politicians are so short-sighted and interested only in their own careers they can't see that :doh

yeah but will it be honest voting i wonder

[andy222]

Quite right stevie but we have to draw the line. Syria is another one its the peoples choice why should we provide them with arms? It only comes back to bite us in the ass. And another thing this country thinks its still a super power where our forces are concerned. We are not. Just look at all the soldiers that got killed in afghanistan. They are being replaced by part timers. This is just my opinion.

[stevie c]

You'll find, as with Israel, the vast majority of civilians dying is due to the army with overwhelming force.... the Americans have proved that :dohR

yes agreed Keith but it doesnt alter the fact that you have women & children getting killed on the Israeli side...one wrong don't make a right

[jonnijon]

Israel has no right to be there, they never had a land in the first place. :NoNo:

[stevie c]

Quite right stevie but we have to draw the line. Syria is another one its the peoples choice why should we provide them with arms? It only comes back to bite us in the ass. And another thing this country thinks its still a super power where our forces are concerned. We are not. Just look at all the soldiers that got killed in afghanistan. They are being replaced by part timers. This is just my opinion.
Andy the majority of the trouble & wars in the world involve Arab or Muslim countries now IMO that says it all :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[andy222]

Obviously the egyptian muslim brotherhood will side with the palestinians. This could get messy.:doh

[KeithD]

Andy the majority of the trouble & wars in the world involve Arab or Muslim countries now IMO that says it all :xxgrinning--00xx3:

They could go on fighting like this for decades and never get anywhere near the numbers who died when the West was fighting in WW1 and WW2, or even Vietnam or Iraq. The majority of fighting countries is actually in Africa :wink:

[stevie c]

They could go on fighting like this for decades and never get anywhere near the numbers who died when the West was fighting in WW1 and WW2, or even Vietnam or Iraq. The majority of fighting countries is actually in Africa :wink:

Many of the African countries are Muslim fanatics

[imagine]

Israel has no right to be there, they never had a land in the first place. :NoNo:

i thought it was their promised land :icon_lol:

[andy222]

This is turning out to be a good debate. But i still believe let them get on with it. There will be enough bloodshed without us getting involved.

[grahamw48]

Just trying to figure out which of the sides (Is/Pal) I dislike the most. :Erm:

Personally I wouldn't vote for a brass farthing of OUR taxes being spent on any of these lunatics. :NoNo:

I see there are calls for our guys to be pulled out of Afghanistan pronto....as I've been telling our idiots in government for the past 11 years.

Yes, Al Q cleared out temporarily, but absolutely sod all else achieved and all for the cost of the lives over 400 of our boys and girls, plus many billions down the drain. :icon_rolleyes:

Any amount of glossing over this massive FAIL by govt. and those with vested interests will not hide the fact that fools rushed in not too long after the hugely powerful and less than gentle Russians had left with their tails between their legs...rushed out, in fact.

These (muslim) people despise us and our ways. They do NOT want democracy. Our kindness is seen as weakness.

That's all you need to know....and the Israelis are not much different, except that their friends are running a lot of America.

[bigmarco]

Cant see why your talking about our troops getting involved in this, it's a non starter because we are already to friendly with the occupying force Israel.

[grahamw48]

There is also Syria now, just waiting for the bleeding heart brigade to start volunteering our services. :NoNo:

[andy222]

Just trying to figure out which of the sides (Is/Pal) I dislike the most. :Erm:

Personally I wouldn't vote for a brass farthing of OUR taxes being spent on any of these lunatics. :NoNo:

I see there are calls for our guys to be pulled out of Afghanistan pronto....as I've been telling our idiots in government for the past 11 years.

Yes, Al Q cleared out temporarily, but absolutely sod all else achieved and all for the cost of the lives over 400 of our boys and girls, plus many billions down the drain. :icon_rolleyes:

Any amount of glossing over this massive FAIL by govt. and those with vested interests will not hide the fact that fools rushed in not too long after the hugely powerful and less than gentle Russians had left with their tails between their legs...rushed out, in fact.

These (muslim) people despise us and our ways. They do NOT want democracy. Our kindness is seen as weakness.

That's all you need to know....and the Israelis are not much different, except that their friends are running a lot of America.
We have been saying this for a long time but the powers that be dont listen.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[andy222]

Cant see why your talking about our troops getting involved in this, it's a non starter because we are already to friendly with the occupying force Israel.
I wish it was true but who knows if our troops will be drawn into this. We havent got a say in it.

[andy222]

I heard one guy say on tv the reason we cant bring our troops out of afghanistan is because it would damage relationships with obama.:doh

[bigmarco]

I have always believed that Afghanistan was a total waste of time. We have lost over 400 soldiers there and achieved nothing.
They are no threat to us other than providing training camps for terrorists which we only succeed in moving elsewhere. I couldn't believe when I read recently that Afghanistan is still the source of 90% of the heroin on our streets. We cant even stop that.
We should have pulled out long ago and the sooner the better and let this 3rd world country return to it's third world ways.

[grahamw48]

Exactly Marco, but don't forget those poor farmers (ours are all rich) had to be gently encouraged to grow alternative crops, despite the fact that the Taliban had guns trained on their heads. :NoNo:

Oh to be able to live in that perfect dream world that the NGOs and do-gooders occupy. :icon_rolleyes:

[Dedworth]

Just trying to figure out which of the sides (Is/Pal) I dislike the most. :Erm:

Personally I wouldn't vote for a brass farthing of OUR taxes being spent on any of these lunatics. :NoNo:

I see there are calls for our guys to be pulled out of Afghanistan pronto....as I've been telling our idiots in government for the past 11 years.

Yes, Al Q cleared out temporarily, but absolutely sod all else achieved and all for the cost of the lives over 400 of our boys and girls, plus many billions down the drain. :icon_rolleyes:

Any amount of glossing over this massive FAIL by govt. and those with vested interests will not hide the fact that fools rushed in not too long after the hugely powerful and less than gentle Russians had left with their tails between their legs...rushed out, in fact.

These (muslim) people despise us and our ways. They do NOT want democracy. Our kindness is seen as weakness.

That's all you need to know....and the Israelis are not much different, except that their friends are running a lot of America.

Its a long time since I studied political history but iirc the problem started with the Balfour Declaration

[grahamw48]

Yes, that's when our meddling started...1917, and I think the following sums up quite well the further meddling by us and others....resulting in the current mess:

.
'It was extremist zionist groups like the Irgun and Lehi who aimed to establish a Jewish state (not just a homeland within the state) and turned to terrorism to establish this, attacking British forces e.g. bombing the King David hotel in 1946.


They also attacked many Palestinian civilians, and Palestinians fought back. The situation was in danger of turning into a civil war, and extra troops were sent to impose order.

A big problem was that many illegal Jewish immigrants from Europe tried to enter Palestine, many of them traumatised by WW II and in no mood to coexist peacefully with the locals. This greatly added to the conflict on the ground, so British authorities intercepted the ships and detained the migrants. This influx was organised by the Jewish Agency who refused to consider resettlement of refugees in the UK, Empire or USA. After a detainment camp was attacked and detainees released, they were detained in Cyprus instead.

However, the Truman administration of the USA demanded that these immigrants be allowed into Palestine, threatening economic sanctions. The UK, almost bankrupt after WW II, was in no position to refuse, agreeing to the demands of a joint commission, and this influx of immigrants indeed made the situation far worse on the ground.


To try to find a Plan B, the UK turned the problem over to the newly formed UN, and announced an intention to quit the territory in 1948. The UN drafted a partition plan, but this could not be agreed by the parties in Palestine, so the White Paper plan continued. The unrest escalated into virtual civil war, and the British became less able to cope, particularly as upcoming Indian independence and partition was drawing in so much manpower there.


The civil war included certain massacres of civilians, such as at Deir Yassin, and this caused a number of people in Palestine to flee the territory to neighbouring countries until the fighting would subside.


One day before the end of Mandate, Zionists declared Israel as a Jewish state, and the Truman administration recognised it 11 minutes later. By this time the British were in no position to stop it. Open war broke out, drawing in surrounding Arab countries and the Israelis were victorious on the battlefield. However, they "ethnically cleansed" almost 80% of Palestinians in the process.


By the time a ceasefire was arranged, Israeli forces controlled 78% of Palestine, far more than was allocated to a Jewish state under the UN partition plan.


Although these cease-fire lines were meant to be temporary pending a settlement, Israel has maintained them as borders ever since, even expanding into more territory. UN resolutions demanded that Israel allow the refugees to return to their homes and reclaim their property, but instead it has continuously refused and has even confiscated their property.


So, they weren't 'given' Palestine, Jewish extremists took it by force, ethnically cleansing the indigenous population. This continued dispossession is the underlying cause of all the conflict ever since.

It's an example of religiously-inspired extremism making the idea of "god gave us this land" take priority over normal secular citizenship and property rights, as well as international law.'

RELIGION and DO-GOODERS ....as usual. :icon_rolleyes:

[imagine]

( they weren't 'given' Palestine, Jewish extremists took it by force, ethnically cleansing the indigenous population. This continued dispossession is the underlying cause of all the conflict ever since.)

sounds like do unto others what the nazis did to them :Erm:

[grahamw48]

Zionists....most of whom had probably never met a German in their lives...not that I could ever excuse what the Nazis did to millions of people.

[andy222]

Very interesting input you lads have done your homework.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[lastlid]

The Gazza Strip....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VoJ69BXf19Q#!

[andy222]

The Gazza Strip....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VoJ69BXf19Q#!
:biggrin: nice one lastlid.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[KeithD]

Excellent write-up clearly pointing out the facts of the situation without blurring it for media purposes http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/2012111874429224963.html

I see it didn't take long for the Israeli's to start hitting building containing Western media ..... like a media center... :doh Sky News was in one of the buildings hit, luckily they were in the cellar, one poor camerman lost a leg though. So much for military targets only :thumbsdown: