Homeopathy is rubbish and shouldn't be available on the NHS !

[Doc Alan]

• People around the world spend a lot of money each year on homeopathy - £4million by our own NHS - treating conditions by tiny doses of substances that would normally produce symptoms. It may have a "placebo" effect, making people happy because they believe it's working, although there's no good evidence that it can cure anything. But is that the final word ?





• That’s what I said on this forum nearly 3 years ago ( http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/23226-The-Great-Homeopathy-Deception-Final-Word?highlight=homeopathy ) . Evidently it’s NOT the final word.

• This week England’s Chief Medical Officer condemned homeopathy as “ rubbish “ which doesn’t work past the placebo effect (
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=12365

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2267120/Homeopathy-rubbish-shouldnt-available-NHS-says-chief-medical-officer.html ).
Other high profile figures such as Prince Charles, and current English Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, endorse it.

• Surely it shouldn’t still be available on the NHS ( and always has been ), already facing years of austerity.

• Possibly 15% of Britons have used homeopathy at some point in their lives. 400 GPs are said to practise homeopathy and treat 200,000 patients a year.

• In the Philippines possibly 70% of the population use traditional or complementary medicine including homeopathy – although only acupuncture services are covered by Phil Health. There are far more traditional healers in the Philippines than medically trained doctors – not least because they’re far more accessible.

• Modern medicine in all aspects must surely these days be evidence-based. Opinions not backed up by facts – but hunches, anecdotes and beliefs – should neither be used by healthcare workers nor relied on by patients, especially where serious illness is concerned.

[grahamw48]

I have aways put my faith in Science Alan. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Jamesey]

I totally agree! :xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3::xxgrinning--00xx3:

Homeopathy is absolute rubbish. If people want to waste their own money on it, that's fine. But it definitely should not be available on the NHS.

Homeopaths are nothing more than quacks.

Lots of good info here:
http://www.badscience.net/category/complementary-medicine/homeopathy/

Ben Goldacre is great at debunking this type of stuff!

[Steve.r]

I have aways put my faith in Science Alan. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Me too Graham.

I have a cousin who's wife is into all this stuff, she recommends all sorts of different lotions and potions for this and that ailment. To be honest I think its because she is a hypochondriac and has a sniffle at the first whiff of winter that spurs her on :doh

[KeithD]

I've been saying on my forums for about a decade it's utter crap.... water has memory! :icon_lol: ..... that would mean a water molecule is a sentient being :crazy:

I had accupuncture on the NHS for a few months and my conclusion was that's a load of crap as well .... another placebo treatment.

However, if placebo works for people then it saves giving them expensive drugs if given by a qualified doctor. It is making it freely available that is the problem, I've read about people with cancer using it instead of prescribed treatment :NoNo:

[lordna]

Just spent ages reading the old thread on homoeopathy..... and there is really nothing else i would like to add. My opinion remains unchanged.

[Doc Alan]

Some of the contributors who took part in debating this topic previously are no longer on the forum, and I appreciate those who have looked at the original thread and posted again – including Lordna.


The Daily Mail states that £10K prize money is on offer to anyone who can prove homeopathy works. It apparently remains unclaimed. Anecdotes, for example, about cancers being “ cured “ by homeopathy are unproven – we know that a tiny minority of patients who have refused proven treatments may recover spontaneously.


There is – to my knowledge – no new evidence available to change people’s minds. All the more remarkable that the NHS still spends on homeopathy despite expert advice, and the Department of Health says “ it’s up to local organisations to decide whether to fund it “.


Watch this space ! The “ reforms “ of the NHS in England – “ devolving power “ to GPs may make little positive difference to patients, but GPs ( not the Department ) could be targeted by the press and blamed for hospital mergers and closures, increasing waiting times, and lack of access to expensive drugs which are inevitable in austere times. Spending on unproven homeopathic remedies should be one of the first cost-cutting exercises – every little helps :smile:!

[lordna]

The 4million spent on homoeopathy is probably a drop in the oceon compared to the overall expenditure. However maybe it would be a good idea for the NHS to fund trials to prove or disprove that homoeopathy is worthwhile, thereby saving the NHS money in the long term whatever the result.

[grahamw48]

Charging all the binge drinkers and other timewasters would help. :icon_rolleyes:

[KeithD]

The 4million spent on homoeopathy is probably a drop in the oceon compared to the overall expenditure. However maybe it would be a good idea for the NHS to fund trials to prove or disprove that homoeopathy is worthwhile, thereby saving the NHS money in the long term whatever the result.

Trials would cost a lot more than £4Mill and would be a waste of money as they'd prove nothing :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Doc Alan]

• Detailed evidence on homeopathy is already available :-

• http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf
• http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/@ps/documents/digitalasset/dh_117811.pdf
• http://www.evidence.nhs.uk/

• The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) advises the NHS on the clinical and cost effective use of treatments. It does not include homeopathy in its list of recommended treatments for ANY health condition.

• In the UK “conventional “ medicine is regulated by special laws that ensure that practitioners are properly qualified and adhere to certain standards of practice.

• There is no professional statutory regulation of homeopathic practitioners in the UK. Anyone can practise as a homeopath, even if they have no or limited formal training or experience.

• Some doctors of conventional medicine and other regulated healthcare professionals also practise homeopathy. In these cases, the homeopathy practice is not regulated by the General Medical Council, or any other regulator.


• A number of professional associations and voluntary registers exist, which practitioners of homeopathy can join if they choose.


In summary, until there is evidence to the contrary :-





• If you feel unwell, or are eligible for a “ routine “ health check, see a GP first. Do not use a visit to a homeopath - no matter who is paying - as a replacement for a visit to a GP.


• The risk of serious side effects arising from taking homeopathic remedies is small, because
they are so diluted that they contain no unsafe substances. Some might contain substances not safe to take with other medicines that you are already taking.



• Talk to your GP before stopping any treatment prescribed by a doctor or avoiding procedures such as vaccination in favour of homeopathy.


• Thankfully we have this choice in the UK. In the Philippines, cost and accessibility come into the equation – there being possibly one “ traditional healer “ for every 300 people, and one doctor for every 80,000.

[bigmarco]

Surely if it's only costing £4million per annum its a relatively small price to pay and there must be far bigger savings to be made elsewhere. I'm not a believer in it but if 200,000 people a year think it helps them then why not.
After all how much of our money is wasted on other things that there is no scientific proof of. For example how much do we pay in to prop up the Church of England and one or two other organisations who try to convince us of virgin births, angels and demons and loads of other hocus pocus.
Perhaps the Daily Mail could double up on the prize and ask someone to prove that God exists because all we have to go on is a book that was written an awful long time ago and I seriously think the Archbishop of Canterbury and one or 2 others are a complete waste of money.

[lordna]

Trials would cost a lot more than £4Mill and would be a waste of money as they'd prove nothing :xxgrinning--00xx3:

If you read my post i said "prove OR disprove" so obviously its worth it whatever the result.

When the NHS was launched in 1948 it had a budget of £437 million (roughly £9 billion at today’s value). For 2011/12 it is around £106 billion. For more information about the spending review visit the Department of Health (DH) website.

Just proves 4 miliion is a drop in the oceon!

[KeithD]

I'm pretty sure we don't need to bother with trials on the magical properties of water.... we know it only has them in football :biggrin:

[Doc Alan]

£ 4 million out of an NHS budget of £106 billion or 0.4% of the total ( estimates ) is more than just a “ homeopathic “ amount – and could be more usefully used.



My advice ( # 11 ) remains unchanged, and is my final word, unless and until evidence convinces me ( and most other doctors ) otherwise.

[lordna]

£ 4 million out of an NHS budget of £106 billion or 0.4% of the total ( estimates ) is more than just a “ homeopathic “ amount – and could be more usefully used.


My advice ( # 11 ) remains unchanged, and is my final word, unless and until evidence convinces me ( and most other doctors ) otherwise.

((4 * 1000,000) /( 106 * 1000,000,000)) * 100 = 0.004% which is definately more" like a homoeopathic amount". Maths is obviously not your strong point Doc.

The above is correct unless you use the British definition of a billion in which case the percentage becomes
((4 * 1000,000)/(106 * 1000,000,000,000)) * 100 = 0.000004% although according to Wiklepedia we have now adopted the american definition.

[Doc Alan]

I give advice to the best of my ability - in clear English - and have no intention of descending into personal confrontations with members I don't know. The figures quoted are all estimates. Nobody has to take my advice, which is given freely in return for the friendship and interest other members have shown to me. My last words on this topic !

[lordna]

I give advice to the best of my ability - in clear English - and have no intention of descending into personal confrontations with members I don't know. The figures quoted are all estimates. Nobody has to take my advice, which is given freely in return for the friendship and interest other members have shown to me. My last words on this topic !

Sorry Doc, i wasn't intending to be confrontational, I was just intending to correct your maths, which was IMHO misleading. I think all on this forum have many times benefited from you sharing your knowledge and i thank you for it. However, i don't expect my GP to be a mathematician or you.

Please accept my apology, no offence was intended.

[lordna]

Regardless of whether homoeopathy is effective or not, the government witchhunt on excluding it from the NHS on the grounds of cost saving is a little ridiculous at 0.004% of the overall NHS budget.

There is an interesting parallel here in the governments policy to reduce immigration by focusing on non-eea immigrants rather than the real problem. Another drop in the ocean!

[Steve.r]

We had a quite charming chap from India register just to slag off our thread and forum. He has since been blown into spammers heaven so will not be back here. But below is his post, I think we touched a nerve. Maybe he has a 'pathy' for that!!!!

7862

[grahamw48]

He appears not to understand that 'Science' is evidence-based and that theories have to be proved and accepted by suitably qualified authorities.

Of course I accept that some of these homeopathic medicines may be effective (or at least one chemical compound in them), but they are not PROVEN as effective, or for that matter...SAFE.

It is also the belief in non-scientific mumbo jumbo that is leading to the extinction of creatures such as the Rhino and so many other animal species. :mad:

[Jamesey]

It is also the belief in non-scientific mumbo jumbo that is leading to the extinction of creatures such as the Rhino and so many other animal species. :mad:

Very true. I'm surprised that so many people are still deluded by this type of stuff!

[webclinician]

Homeopathy was long in Limbo at the NHS anyway. Not even common in the nice guideline apart from dementia when sensory perception is very important.