Hoping no horses die this year in the Grand national.

[cheekee]

Just really hoping that all the horses finish safely this year with no fatalities or injuries.

[Arthur Little]

Just really hoping that all the horses finish safely this year with no fatalities

:gp: ... we've already had enough :222:meat in our burgers! :biggrin:

[stevewool]

:gp: ... we've already had enough :222:meat in our burgers! :biggrin:

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[stevewool]

i must say i have enjoyed the tv adverts with the horses running through the streets and oven the cars, even jumping the cabbage patch too :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[stevie c]

All horses & riders safe as national finishes :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[KeithD]

Anyone see the jet ski Grand National in the Mersey? :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[imagine]

is tesco in the running :biggrin:

[Ako Si Jamie]

It's always sad when horses die. Stay safe GG's and good luck. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Dedworth]

No coupons in the papers for free £1 bet at Ladbrokes :bigcry:local shop was busy earlier....... they're all PaddyPower & Joe Coral -

[cheekee]

Another horse dies needlessly over a race which only serves as a pleasure for humans.

http://uknw.co.uk/grand-national-tragedy-as-horse-dies-after-violent-flip-over-fence/

[raynaputi]

Any horse in the fields or in the wild would get an accident while galloping or free running. Even a dog can break its neck if you let it run in the woods (as one episode of Supervet showed). These horses are very well taken care of and are even treated better than some humans (air conditioned stables, eating the best food they can have, best vets to look after them, etc.)! Horses won't run or jump if they don't like to. Many races have shown this (we watch horse racing every single day on TV).

[cheekee]

Any horse in the fields or in the wild would get an accident while galloping or free running. Even a dog can break its neck if you let it run in the woods (as one episode of Supervet showed). These horses are very well taken care of and are even treated better than some humans (air conditioned stables, eating the best food they can have, best vets to look after them, etc.)! Horses won't run or jump if they don't like to. Many races have shown this (we watch horse racing every single day on TV).

Yes but if they sustained an accident in the wild that's different. Not because of human gain. Any animal can sustain an accident in the wild. The horses in this race were forced to jump all bunched up together being pushed to their limits for human pleasure. They are whipped to be pushed harder. At least then take the whips away and reduce the amount of horses running at the same time. That would prove if they really enjoyed it. They get the best treatment because of the money generated from human interest.

I'm not talking about all horse races. I am talking about the grand national. It is not the first time a horse has been killed in this event.

I'm sorry raynaputi I respect your opinion and I am always grateful for you're advice re spouse visa issues but we are going to have to disagree on this one. I hope you understand.

[raynaputi]

One documentary I've watched about horse racing, a trainer was showing how they know if the horses would be for the hurdles or for the flats racing. They've put one young horse in a training area, and let it do its thing in it, running free. There are hurdles in this enclosure and there were no jockeys or anyone telling the horse what to do. This young horse hasn't been raced or seen any hurdles before that day. And what did the horse do? Jumped on its free will on these hurdles and kept on doing it a lot of times without any human interaction, until one of the stable girl got in the enclosure to get it.

The horses won't jump or run if they don't like it, even if the jockeys force them. I've seen races where the horse just stood there at the start and they have to restart it because one would not run. The 2nd start, it still won't run and they were forced to pull it out. Not just in the hurdles, but a lot of times as well in the flats racing. Vets won't let them run if their condition is not good before the start, and they always check them at the start and end of the race. When Synchronised died in the Grand National 2 years ago, it broke its legs when it was running free and not doing the hurdles.

You need to study what's going on in the racing industry, how they train the horses, how they handle them and all in it aside from just looking about the money they are making. Of course there will be bad apples. But most of these horses are considered pets and family by the owners, trainers and stable people, just like any pet dogs, cats, etc which are all for human pleasure as well. I'm more concerned of horses that regular people are having especially when they don't have the money and area they are supposed to have for these horses. A lot of those end up dead if not rescued.

[Tawi2]

Not because of human gain
If your wearing a leather belt,leather shoes,eaten a beefburger this week then a creature was killed for human gain,horse racing is no different from bullfighting or sabong in pinas,if every incidence of man using creatures for food,clothing or entertainment were eradicated the world would grind to a halt,if you have eaten pig in pinas chances are it wasnt stunned humanely but died squealing as its life-blood dripped and spurted into a receptacle,if you have eaten tuna they suffocated when hauled aboard a fishing vessel,if your a total vegan then you have every right to take the moral high-ground.

[cheekee]

One documentary I've watched about horse racing, a trainer was showing how they know if the horses would be for the hurdles or for the flats racing. They've put one young horse in a training area, and let it do its thing in it, running free. There are hurdles in this enclosure and there were no jockeys or anyone telling the horse what to do. This young horse hasn't been raced or seen any hurdles before that day. And what did the horse do? Jumped on its free will on these hurdles and kept on doing it a lot of times without any human interaction, until one of the stable girl got in the enclosure to get it.

The horses won't jump or run if they don't like it, even if the jockeys force them. I've seen races where the horse just stood there at the start and they have to restart it because one would not run. The 2nd start, it still won't run and they were forced to pull it out. Not just in the hurdles, but a lot of times as well in the flats racing. Vets won't let them run if their condition is not good before the start, and they always check them at the start and end of the race. When Synchronised died in the Grand National 2 years ago, it broke its legs when it was running free and not doing the hurdles.

You need to study what's going on in the racing industry, how they train the horses, how they handle them and all in it aside from just looking about the money they are making. Of course there will be bad apples. But most of these horses are considered pets and family by the owners, trainers and stable people, just like any pet dogs, cats, etc which are all for human pleasure as well. I'm more concerned of horses that regular people are having especially when they don't have the money and area they are supposed to have for these horses. A lot of those end up dead if not rescued.

You make good points.

I think you misunderstood me. I think horse racing needs to be made safer. I am annoyed and upset that a beautiful creature had to die because of a race. I detest that whips are used. I know the horses are treated well and are loved. I have worked in animal rescue and have seen some awful abuse cases. Yes I also worry about the horses that cant be cared for properly as well.

Thank you for your well constructed reply.

[cheekee]

If your wearing a leather belt,leather shoes,eaten a beefburger this week then a creature was killed for human gain,horse racing is no different from bullfighting or sabong in pinas,if every incidence of man using creatures for food,clothing or entertainment were eradicated the world would grind to a halt,if you have eaten pig in pinas chances are it wasnt stunned humanely but died squealing as its life-blood dripped and spurted into a receptacle,if you have eaten tuna they suffocated when hauled aboard a fishing vessel,if your a total vegan then you have every right to take the moral high-ground.

Sadly you are correct :(. But predators eat meat in the wild. So do we to survive. Yes there are other sources of protein that we are aware of now and we can be vegan. Some scientists argue the human race wouldn't have advanced as far as we have unless we were meat eaters. Could it be argued that using animals for entertainment is a separate argument though ? Yes I did eat pork in the Philippines and I will be honest I was unaware of the methods you talk about. It was a new culture to me. I guess I have to accept that.

[raynaputi]

According to Keith, these whips don't really do any harm to the horses. It's like a tap to them (have you seen the stable girls/boys who taps the horses after the races? It's the same thing). And the jockeys are only allowed 8 times I think to whip the horse at the race. There are counters for that and jockeys are punished if they exceed the number of whips allowed. They are banned for racing for a number of days or a week I think (and these jockeys usually races a number of times everyday). And most jockeys don't do any harm to these horses. When a horse fall down on hurdles in the race, you can see the jockeys staying beside the horse until he/she is sure the horse is fine (like what Ruby Walsh did on Thursday with Arctic Fire and today with Balthazar King). I remember when Synchronised died, AP McCoy was so upset that he didn't race for a few days.

[cheekee]

According to Keith, these whips don't really do any harm to the horses. It's like a tap to them (have you seen the stable girls/boys who taps the horses after the races? It's the same thing). And the jockeys are only allowed 8 times I think to whip the horse at the race. There are counters for that and jockeys are punished if they exceed the number of whips allowed. They are banned for racing for a number of days or a week I think (and these jockeys usually races a number of times everyday). And most jockeys don't do any harm to these horses. When a horse fall down on hurdles in the race, you can see the jockeys staying beside the horse until he/she is sure the horse is fine (like what Ruby Walsh did on Thursday with Arctic Fire and today with Balthazar King). I remember when Synchronised died, AP McCoy was so upset that he didn't race for a few days.

I don't confess to have as much experience of watching races as you but the ones I did the jockeys seems to be hitting the horses very hard with the whips. I didn't realise there was rules regarding the whips. Thank you for telling me that. Would be interesting to see how races would progress though if whips were not used. Just a thought really. I have seen the stable boys/girls do what you say. Thats like a gentle "Pat on the skin" which I believed was different to being hit with a whip. Animals in the wild don't express signs of pain because that would be seen as weak and they would be easy prey for predators. I have seen many injured animals that don't show any signs of pain.

[Tawi2]

I have seen many injured animals that don't show any signs of pain.
Maybe they are in shock,badly injured creatures start to shut-down,I cant remember the name of the naturally occuring chemical but there is one,that calms herbivores such as zebra when they are being eaten alive by a pride of lions (nature is far crueller than man),a sort of natural pain-killer.

[cheekee]

The fight or flight mechanism using adrenaline/cortisol ?

The animals I am talking about were not fatally injured.

[Tawi2]

When your hyped up with adrenaline you dont feel pain,I once had a really nice fall,damaged myself,and leapt straight to my feet (which wasnt a good thing to do),I dont think its adrenaline in prey-animals,I seem to remember another name,its a sort of natural tranquiliser which allows them to not to feel the pain as a lion eats their haunches off :Erm:

[cheekee]

When your hyped up with adrenaline you dont feel pain,I once had a really nice fall,damaged myself,and leapt straight to my feet (which wasnt a good thing to do),I dont think its adrenaline in prey-animals,I seem to remember another name,its a sort of natural tranquiliser which allows them to not to feel the pain as a lion eats their haunches off :Erm:

Endorphines ?

[Tawi2]

Endorphines are pleasure chemicals I think,it might be,I will try and find out the name and report back :Erm:

[cheekee]

Endorphines are pleasure chemicals I think,it might be,I will try and find out the name and report back :Erm:

Maybe a mixture of adrenaline and endorphines. the adrenaline blocks the pain and the endorphines protect the animal against what is actually happening to them. Also I imagine the hypoxia that results from the loss of blood creates a high blocking the traumatic experience. I know the patients I look after that are hypoxic can act "high"

[Ako Si Jamie]

Maybe they are in shock,badly injured creatures start to shut-down,I cant remember the name of the naturally occuring chemical but there is one,that calms herbivores such as zebra when they are being eaten alive by a pride of lions (nature is far crueller than man),a sort of natural pain-killer.I remember seeing a bird being eaten alive by a predator on YT but it wasn't fighting for it's life. It just lay there calm as a cucumber and didn't look in pain at all.

[cheekee]

I remember seeing a bird being eaten alive by a predator on YT but it wasn't fighting for it's life. It just lay there calm as a cucumber and didn't look in pain at all.

Yes probably shocked with all the chemicals just talked about flowing.

[Tawi2]

Maybe a mixture of adrenaline and endorphines. the adrenaline blocks the pain and the endorphines protect the animal against what is actually happening to them. Also I imagine the hypoxia that results from the loss of blood creates a high blocking the traumatic experience. I know the patients I look after that are hypoxic can act "high"
Might be,I just remember attenborough mentioning it as some young inexperienced lions fed on the back-end of a clearly still alive but seemingly calm zebra,incidentally europeans in colonial africa used to race,gallop and jump domesticated zebra,a sort of striped grand-national.

[cheekee]

A freeze response happens in nature not merely with humans. There are instances when a animal is suddenly confronted by a predator and the animal just freezes. I have heard people try to explain the behaviour by saying the animal was hypnotised. In reality the animal had a freeze response. Sometimes in the wild it has been observed that a predator chases down its prey and when the prey is finally cornered, it will have a freeze response. It stops running, it stands there and sometimes it will even fall over. What is happening is that the animal percieves that death is imminent, that there is nothing more to do. Hence the animal produces endorphins to make the pain of death less intense.

Fight or flight:the ultimate book for understanding and managing stress. Gary R Plaford

[raynaputi]

You make good points.

I think you misunderstood me. I think horse racing needs to be made safer. I am annoyed and upset that a beautiful creature had to die because of a race. I detest that whips are used. I know the horses are treated well and are loved. I have worked in animal rescue and have seen some awful abuse cases. Yes I also worry about the horses that cant be cared for properly as well.

Thank you for your well constructed reply.

Read this on how they are making it safer, particularly the Grand National race, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National Although some of the suggestions like lowering the fences or making it narrower would result to horses racing faster. Keith keeps on saying that everytime he sees people complaining about it on tv..haha. Also lowering the number or horses isn't a guarantee of no fatalities. Btw, the horse that died in this year's festival didn't run in the Grand National but in the novices hurdles, which has the regular fences, 3.5 ft in height.

[Ako Si Jamie]

Yep, there were only 12 horses in the race too. It died instantly after flipping over and was aged 6. It also won three of it's last four races so it had both experience and ability.