on public funds

[marikistin]

hello everyone...:)
just wanted to cite a situation and ask for your advise, comments and opinions about it:

a fiancee is in receipt of public funds (incapacity & disability living allowance) do u think this will affect their application of a visa.is it possible to obtain a successful visa despite this situation...what do u advise?what is best to do?

is it possible for them to get a fiancee/spouse visa, or alternatively a visit visa

what are the things they can opt to do to have a remedy on this...

thankx everyone.

[KeithD]

As long as he/she can support you with his/her own finances, then no problem regarldess of where they come from.

Use the search, other situations similar on here this year.

[joebloggs]

as long as he does not claim any extra 'public funds' becuase you are with him, you both should be ok.

[nethlewy]

If your friend that is claiming public funds can get a family member who is working and can give proof of income and is willing to sign the declaration that they are willing to assist with his spouse's living/repatriation costs if necessary (act as co-sponsor). There is no need to be living with this other family member and they should also enclose their own bank statements etc. Then everything should be ok.

[joebloggs]

i'm not so sure about that now, recently there was a case where 3rd party support was no longer allowed, which is confusing many people, i think that it might have been for a work permit, cannot remeber, i would need to check, and as for a spouse visa, 3rd party support is at the discretion of the case worker.. having said that thou, i've always used 3rd party support ( my mom :D) and not had a problem, but if its not family, then their is a risk of refusal... :NoNo:

[andypaul]

i'm not so sure about that now, recently there was a case where 3rd party support was no longer allowed, which is confusing many people, i think that it might have been for a work permit, cannot remeber, i would need to check, and as for a spouse visa, 3rd party support is at the discretion of the case worker.. having said that thou, i've always used 3rd party support ( my mom :D) and not had a problem, but if its not family, then their is a risk of refusal... :NoNo:

When i was reading up like crazy i think you could have third party support on a finace visa, but not a spouse visa. I also noticed on the ILR form that you could volunteer info on suport from realtives.
AS you say i would think a lot is up to the case worker/eco.

[joebloggs]

yes your right about the finacee visa for 3rd party support, as on the fiancee visa your not allowed to work, thats the reason for the 3rd party support, but not on spouse visa, as you can work on that visa (thou its actually at the discreation of the case worker or was !!, still is ??), crazy thou, as how long do they think it takes to get a job, nat number ?

the ruling on 3rd party support was only recently .. and i'm not sure that all case workers know of the ruling.. also it mentions about benefits, so maybe i'm now wrong with what i said earlier about benefits, i wonder if they are enforcing these rulings ?


Third Party Support no longer permitted in Entry Clearance cases.

Following the decision of AM v Ethiopia 2007 UKAIT00058, the Immigration Tribunal have category stated that third party support is no longer permitted in entry clearance cases being made under paragraphs 2317 (dependent children) and 281 (spouses).

They also seem to have ruled that the benefits being awarded to a UK national cannot be assessed as enough to support a non-UK national spouse, as the assumption is that the benefits are the exact amounted needed to support one individual and not enough to be given in support of a spouse. Although the judgement specified disability benefit and income support, we expect that this will also apply to other benefits.

They have also ruled that family life (Article 8) can be exercised even if the partied of the family are in different countries, and that a delay in making a decision is unlikely to carry more than minimal weight, even if it is a relevant factor. And finally, poor living conditions abroad will have no real bearing on whether Article 8 rights are breached.

It is too early to see how these later points will be applied in cases, but it is clear that the Third Party Support issue is an absolute and not negotiable. We propose that all those on low incomes seeking to bring partners or dependent children to the UK look very carefully at their finances before making an application.


from http://www.medivisas.com/news080807.asp

[ginapeterb]

i Know some of you have given advice to the author of this thread about disablity living allowance and incapacity benefit, of course the author does not make the circumstances of the fiance very clear. and we would need more information to assess the chances of such a sponsor being able to bring someone from the Philippines.

Im not so sure you are all giving marikistin good advice, whilst DLA is not means tested, and incapacity benefit is also not means tested (to the best of my knowledge).

These benefits are in fact public funds, or in effect tax payers money, if we want to be blunt about the matter, I appreciate neither of these benefits are in themselves means tested, nor are they universal such as child benefit, but it does raise the question

"if these benefits constitute public funds, can the applicant on a fiancee visa be granted entry clearance ?

Its my understanding, that such an application would fail and the visa would be declined.

I'm not trying to upset the author of the post, nor am i in any way being prejudiced towards that person, but it would seem that I have a case to cite in support of this.

A certain British sponsor was in Manila and was in receipt of public funds, he lived on DLA and Income support, Income support is means tested and is based on their own personal situation, hence the name Income support, the DLA is based on the assessed entitlement to money to compensate them for not being able to work and living with a disablity that prevents them from taking up paid employment.

The result of his wifes application to come to Uk was a refusal to issue a visa, based on lack of income of which to support the applicant without further recourse to public funds.

I am just cautious about some of your advices, dont be quick to rush in and give an opinion based on so little information that which has not been put in the post..

We invariably find there is more to it than meets the eye, and on first glance its so easy to give an opinion without all the facts.
I wish them well..but feel that the application is destined for a refusal unless other income can be shown such as a substancial amount of savings, to cover the applicants stay in the UK for 24 months.

[joebloggs]

yes i agree with you, but i know some people have got a visa while on certain benefits, thou, maybe those who have succeeded in getting the visa had substantial savings?, i don't think the OP mentions savings, so we don't know..

anyway, i've heard some where, that if you are claiming benefits then you will not be allowed to sponsor a visa app?, as the state benefits are designed only for one person, not 2, so its not possible to sponsor someone if you are.. i cannot remember where i heard this thou, but it was in the last few days? anyone else heard this..or am i going :Cuckoo:

[andypaul]

yes i agree with you, but i know some people have got a visa while on certain benefits, thou, maybe those who have succeeded in getting the visa had substantial savings?, i don't think the OP mentions savings, so we don't know..

anyway, i've heard some where, that if you are claiming benefits then you will not be allowed to sponsor a visa app?, as the state benefits are designed only for one person, not 2, so its not possible to sponsor someone if you are.. i cannot remember where i heard this thou, but it was in the last few days? anyone else heard this..or am i going :Cuckoo:

Im only going by what i have read of others experiences and those who have suceeded seem to have had savings or another income of some form, if they lived hand to mouth off benefits, as you say if they are designed for one person then how could they support two?

[Durkhaima]

Hello there. I got my visa within 6 weeks after my husband and i filed the application at UKVACS despite the fact that my husband is in receipt of public funds (DLA and Housing Benefit). My husband has never had any substantial debt (any debt at all) and also i have my own savings and properties in the Philippines. There is no fast and sure rule in assessing a application for a Visa so please do not give up but i suggest instead of applying for a fiance visa you two get married here in the Philippines and apply for a Spouse Visa instead. I wish you all the luck. God bless...

[KeithD]

Pete I was on Incapacity, DLA, and a war pension when I brough Ping over, no problems at all, and a few others on disability benefits on here have succeeded. As long as you can prove you can support her, they do not care where you get the money from.

.....and now I run my own company I'm worse off!!! :rolleyes:

[ginapeterb]

Hiah Keith, yep I remember you telling me that, i Know you are injured and was on incapacity benefit, and DLA, in your situation you genuinely could not work in the normal way, and therefore I understand you needed it.

Someone like me who although being a large person shall we say, has never had to cope with some of the disabilities that others have had, even though I could if I wanted probably claim DLA, actually my Doctor has told me that with my present excruciating back problem he is treating, I would quite easily qualify for Incapacity Benefit, and DLA if I wanted to claim.

The things my back prevents me from doing seriously impede my work, but I have resisted it, if I am correct Kieth, DLA is not means tested, in other words, it is not based on income you receive from work.

I still go out many days with excruciating back pain, and am constantly on tablets, there are days when I cannot get out of bed, one morning I could not tie my shoe lace, or get down to it, Gina was in Philippines, it was a nightmare Keith I can tell you, I sympathise with anyone who is in the position that they have difficulty working because of injuries.

However, i have to say there are a large number of claimants who are draining on our every increasing welfare state, it is those claimants who I am against, and feel they are quite frankly taking the proverbial.

I have listened to Durkhaima's post about her husband being on DLA and housing benefit.

I am suprised the visa was given in those circumstances, and I suspect there is more to it than she is letting on, I have a moral issue with some of these posts I am seeing, and I might as well put my cards on the table, I personally have to pay a large amount of income tax per year, and that income tax goes into central funds, which pays for the welfare state this is done collectively with the many millions of other people who like me have to contribute a large part of their income to the welfare state.

I and many other of our citizens have to pay the basic rate of tax at 22p in the pound after our personal allowance of £5225.00 , up to the 1st 33,300 at 22 per cent of that, and then followed by a further 40 per cent tax over 33,300, as you can imagine, I get hit pretty hard with tax every hear, and Gina and I go mad at having to make these payments which we do on giro every month, then to find there are people out there, happily claiming housing benefit and Disability living allowance.

Not only that, my poor wife has to also pay income tax at the standard rate of 22p in the pound on her own modest salary, because my wife is a Filipino citizen and works for Essex County Council she cannot simply dissapear into the Tago ng Tago system that seems to prevail with the Filipinos in our country and not just them, they represent a small group of the 500,000 plus who are not paying any income tax, because she has done things the right way as many of you reading this have done, she after her personal allowance is then paying 22p in the pound, and works long and hard hours for her salary, she has no concept of coming to UK to claim benefits, in fact as you all know, she is not entitled to receive public funds, interesting isnt it, considering she pays income tax and national insurance contributions and has been doing so for the last 24 months of her working life here in the UK.

I am sure there are people on this forum who will support me in my feelings on this matter, there will be others who will not support me, such is the diversity of different peoples circumstances.

Getting out of bed in a morning at 6am, as I do, and then being on the road by 7.30am, travelling hundreds of miles a day to try and cut a living, is not rewarded under the current tax system we live in, the more you try to help yourself and do better for your circumstances, the more you are punished for doing so in unfair tax system.

Personally, I do not agree with foreign nationals coming to the UK to live with those who are in receipt of public funds, not withstanding those individuals who through no fault of their own, have been injured or been inflicted with physical injuries that prevent them from taking up regular employment or running a business, for those ones, they have my heartfelt sympathy and of course they should be entitled to state assistance, and I wish them well.

Foreigners from the Philippines should not expect to come and live in our country under those circumstances where their prospective spouses or fiance's are in receipt of tax payers money to fund their lifestyles, when they themselves full well know, that they could work in gainful employment if they tried, the problem with these ones, is that they are workshy, and too reliant on a state system, that is not available in such countries as the Philippines, there if yo dont work, or you dont have money, you simply have to rely on the benevelence of OFW's in the family, which multitudes do, or find other ways to make a living.

I have watched some Filipinos come up with the most innovative and amazing ways to cut out a living, so if they can do it, so can these ones I talk about back in UK.

Working for yourself or being in employment brings self respect, relying on the tax payer to fund your lifestyle makes you dependant on others and brings no respect.

As I have said in the past, I categrorically will state for the record, my own opinion, and I am entitled to my viewpoint as a tax paying citizen, that those ones who come from foreign countries, whether in this case it be from the Philippines or from any other country, should not be allowed entry clearance to live with those who are in receipt of state benefits for more than 6 months.

I know for the purposes of visa entry, Keith has pointed out, that


As long as you can prove you can support her, they do not care where you get the money from.

That may be true, and if that is the rules set by our government of the moment, then I have to support that view under our parliamentary democracy.

However, whilst our Government may not have a problem with that, I as a tax payer do !!!

I beleive its wrong, and the rules need to be changed, as I belong to a political party and am a local party worker, I will fight to change the rules by writing to ministers who are responsible, and I will continue to do so whilst I am able.

Thanks for listening, thats my view...I am sure I will be shot by someone,...but thankfully, its over internet..so you wont succeed...
but I welcome all views for a debate on the issue if you want a debate.

[KeithD]

Two points Pete:
1) Contact my account, 2 years of business resulting in less than £100 of taxes :cwm24:
2) NO DISABILITY stops anyone from working, everyone can do something. There are many different ways of making money on the Internet for a start, and I use nearly all of them :xxgrinning--00xx3:. It's not easy for me on the days I'm really ill, but a lot is not automated (took me 1 week to learn PHP/MySQL, that values me at £30,000-£50,000 a year just for that if I got a job). But then even when I'm crippled, can hardly move, pain is close to the passing out level, getting out of bed and having a business to run gives plenty to do. Never boring, something to learn every day.

I still get my decent war pension, so don't have to work, but I do it so I'm not living in my own self pity every day, with nothing to do in life.

[ginapeterb]

As always Keith, you have my support and sympathies, good for you mate....you make me feel proud of you.

[andypaul]

I agree with what you put Pete, thats why My wifes working on a saturday (which we both hate as its one of my two days off)as she has a career she has bulit up her self and feels proud to support her Brother, sister and other cousins though her Earnings not handouts from me or the goverment.
People from various backgrounds have said to her why you bother just stay at home and now she has Ilr start looking for ways to claim money:cwm23:

Who as like many i have always belived state benefits are for those who need them, not for those who want it easy.

[ginapeterb]

I applaud your wife Andy who has taken the bull by the horns and found way to work, she is one of lifes go getters, and it should be encouraged, in 1947 when Clem Atlee's labour party commenced the welfare state, it was meant back then as a safety net, access to free healthcare at the point of demand was a brilliant concept, sadly, the welfare state which amounts for 130 Billion pounds per year, is a mammoth dinosaur, out of control, and coupled with the NHS 150 Billion a year, accounts for over 280 Billion pounds, this simply cannot go in in its current form, urgent reforms are needed, and those that provide for themselves certainly will be able to go along with those reforms.

I could say more, however, its been a long Saturday out shoppping, I am exhausted from carrying my wifes shopping bags...and could do with a much needed rest....thanks for listening everyone.

[KeithD]

More shopping....more taxes :)

[andypaul]

More shopping....more taxes :)

I think Petes, his wife and my missus shopping trips are keeping the ecomony afloat at the moment:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[baboyako]

More shopping....more taxes :)

you should get yourself a VAT number :xxgrinning--00xx3: :Hellooo:

[joebloggs]

nhs is being 'reformed' its been slowly shutdown :NoNo: just like post offices, parks, libraries , public toilets, nhs dentists, etc..............................

i don't think anyone really wants to be on benefits, oh you'll find the old few who have given up on finding a job and on living, and those who milk the system, but i'm sure most would rather work and get paid a decent wage, than sleep all day or worse, watch daytime tv :cwm24:.

:xxgrinning--00xx3: to those who GOYA, (get of your :butthead:), and try to improve their skills and finances, but remember everyone is not the same, and its easy to criticize people, when you've not been in their shoes, and people go thru stages of hard times, believe me i had some, and i wouldn't wish it on anyone..

i don't see why someone shouldn't be able to marry, bring their wife/husband to the uk if they are on certain benefits, as not all benefits are means tested, so if they have the finances to support them why not, its not just about the benefits they might be now taking from the system, its what they've put in that counts to, if someone has worked for 20+ yrs and never claimed a benefit in their life, who has the right to tell them that they cannot bring with wife here, becuase they are now claiming benefits..

as for the nhs, treatment being free at the point of demand, yes until the hospital dumps you onto social services, who can means test you, and start to charge you.

i still think everyone should have the right to marry who they want, and live where they want, and no pen pusher in lunatic house should be judge and jury :NoNo:

[KeithD]

More hospitals shutdown under the Tories than under Labour, it's on the parliamentary stats site.....and Labour have opened up the walk in places, which are great for the elderly, and helped my lad out instantly with his problemo. Their is also the cost of machinery these days, we never had CT, MRI, etc back in the 80's (and look how many lives these save), and these are very expensive (£Millions), and so are all the new drugs based on RNA, DNA manipulation, B/T cell targetting, etc. They work well , but some cost £20,000 a year per patient, it is our taxes that pay for them. The new treatment on B-Cell RNA manipulation I'd like to try is £5,000 a year, and I doubt under the Tories they would have done my jaw for the £10,000+ it cost.

Post offices are losing money, it's a business. Simple as that. Same as the few hospitals that are in debt, bad management, nothing else, you can't put the blame on the government for everything, that is a kop out.

I know plenty of folk who want to be on benefit Joe, and they do everything they can to get as much as they can....while working for cash....and no they are not just in Liverpool, all over the country. Waste of time grassing them up, nothing really happens, apart from they are asked by the courts to pay back £1 a week :NoNo:

[joebloggs]

I don't know who's is to blame for the hospitals, but there are NO hospitals in Salford now with maternity wards, little joe will be one of the last to be born in a salford hospital, a city that goes back a 1000 years, city of salford has a population of near 1/4 of a million and no maternity ward, don't tell me thats not :Rasp: . every week you see in the local papers charities raising money to buy hospital equipment. bad management, gov , who ever is to blame, doesn't make this right.

i don't mean parks, i mean playgrounds for kids to go, at least 3 have gone from where i live, the local library shut down years ago, these places that build a community, once gone, are gone for ever.. they will never be replaced or return.

as for the cost of drugs, drugs companies have been ripping the nhs for years thru price fixing, they could buy a generic version of the drug :NoNo:, as any chemist will tell you where i live, to buy the generic version instead if its cheaper.

as for working for cash, who's to blame there, the person who is working for a bit more money, or the employer who is not paying tax and nat insurance, without the employer taking the :censored:, then there would be no cash in hand, and if i remember right, for every £ you earn working, the SS take a £ off your benefits. great incentive for people to work part time or work at all, and your near same age as me, you'll remember the great 80's of high unemployement, especially in the cities of liverpool and manchester. some of the school leavers who left then, have still not had a job, long term unemployment is a big problem, as many of them are now phsyically and mentally unemployable, low self esteem, depression, feeling lonely, isolated and stigmatised and lost self-respect, and unemployment benefit is £59 a week, try living on that :NoNo:

well as i start work tomoz at 8:30am and leave after 5:30pm, even thou i don't like the job, i'll thank myself lucky that i'm not unemployed yet ( oh in the last 6yrs, 3 companies i've worked for have gone into liquidation) . coming from liverpool i think there is a good chance you've been unemployed scouser keith ? then you know how it feels, so from an 'i'm alright jack' , i hope we all keep working :rolleyes:

[KeithD]

Our GP gets plenty of 'generic' versions of some drugs, but you can't buy generic of some, especially the new ones, as the drug companies need to make enough profit to cover research, and most folk don't understand that to get to one drug, it can take millions (no exageration) of tests with molecules & proteins to even get to a beta version, and research has dropped over the last 20 years as it has become more expensive.

New genetic medication will be a lot cheaper in the long run, but this is very expensive at the moment as it is all still in the early learning mode.

Never been unemployed for 1 day, left school, started work the next day :) Always changed jobs every 3 years, stops routine getting into your life.

[ginapeterb]

Joe,


i don't see why someone shouldn't be able to marry, bring their wife/husband to the uk if they are on certain benefits, as not all benefits are means tested, so if they have the finances to support them why not, its not just about the benefits they might be now taking from the system, its what they've put in that counts to, if someone has worked for 20+ yrs and never claimed a benefit in their life, who has the right to tell them that they cannot bring with wife here, becuase they are now claiming benefits..


I know what I wrote would not always be popular with other readers, but commenting on individual cases does not for me get the point across, with reagard to dictating whether someone's wife or fiancee should come here, i dont get to make that decision.

I am merely giving my political opinion as I see my own conviction, my convictions tell me that it doesnt matter how long you have been gainfully employed, whether its 2 years or 20 years, and your stance on its a matter of how much they put in, is not valid.

Just because you put in, doesnt mean it gives you a guaranteed right to take out, National Insurance contributions and General Income tax, does not offer a bank in, bank out system.

Benefits are awarded to individuals based on their own circumstances, if the state says they qualify, then they are only taking the benefits they are lawfully entitled to.

I have no issues with that, my issue is simply, those who wish to bring foreigners into our country, should not be able to do so, if they are in receipt of publicly funded payments.

I think my position is very clear, you have to draw the line somewhere, and provided that person is able to support their wife/fiancee subject to their own finances, then I believe they are not going to add a burden on the taxpayer.

Its so easy to say the state will pay, but just who is the state ? the state is the collective input of millions of taxpayers, I agree that not all taxpayer benefits are means tested.

And if the Entry clearance officer decides that the applicant has a right to come and live in our country, then I will live with that decision, however, my view tends to be an ideological view, and not always a practical view, I also believe that the foreign born wifes of those resident in the United Kingdom, should be given automatic right of entitlement to join their husbands without this absolutely potty and ridiculous entry clearance system that prevails under the Amended Immigration rules.

Why should the wife of a British Citizen have to jump through hoops and hurdles and apply to join their husband in the UK, whoever came up with that amendment, i.e. marriage is not an automatic right of entitlement to live in the UK, needs to be shot...

Fiancee's thats a different matter, since if they came to UK, there is not guarantee they would get married, so I stick with the view, they should have to apply just like anyone else, once they are married, then they should be given automatic entitlement to remain indefinately.

[joebloggs]

Just because you put in, doesnt mean it gives you a guaranteed right to take out, National Insurance contributions and General Income tax, does not offer a bank in, bank out system.



National Insurance contributions does thou, Jobseekers Allowance
(JSA) (formerly known as Unemployment Benefit) is a Benefit for those who are unemployed (or work less than 16 hours a week but are seeking full-time work). There are two types of JSA: one relies on a National Insurance contribution record, and the other works on a means-tested system similar to Income Support.

what if someone who is not on a means tested benefit, would you refuse them a visa ? . i can undestand if its means tested, but if its not, that person could own thier own home and have substantial savings.
so no recourse to public funds would be needed.

[ginapeterb]

Joe
I understand your line of thought, JSA is based on NI Record, but its only for 6 months, i think the general thrust of my argument is that if you were totally reliant on tax payers money to live, then bringing another into the country would be irresponsible.

I think that sums up my position, however, my experiences show me that its unlikely that anyone would want to do that, and if they did, the fact that they met in the Philippines, where it cost them money to get out there, and to live etc etc, its hardly likely they would be so destitute as to be soley reliant on public funds.

I think I am trying to stress that bringing someone into UK to live on public funds may be seen in some quarters as immoral.

However, I am sure it happens, having said that Joe, everyone to their own, does it affect me ? not really, it wont change my tax bill will it ?

[Durkhaima]

Regarding my husband's application for my visa, eventhough he is on DLA why should he not be allowed to sponsor me? My husband is on DLA which he does not like to receive but his total nervous system was messed up by long term prescription drugs which at the age of 40 the medical profession in their ultimate wisdom tried to withdraw him from. He was a fairly successful plumber and heating engineer then, he owned his own business and due to the reaction from the sudden drug withdrawal he is now unable to work. My husband is a model citizen who has never had any CCJs or criminal record of any kind. So does your thinking rule out the fact that my husband has not got a right to life?

[ginapeterb]

Durkhaima

If you had followed the thread, you would have noted that I will not be drawn into individual cases since it personalizes the situation, but since you mentioned it, you told us previosly your husband is in receipt of DLA and housing benefit, your comment:


My husband is on DLA which he does not like to receive

Is this a serious statement ?

Its easy to make those sort of statements when the system allows you to receive such benefits without let or hindrance, thats like me saying I won 4.6 Million quid last night on the lottery, but I dont like to receive it.

I accept he may have been in his own business, and that he can no longer work through no fault of his own, if that is the case, then he has got the benefits he is entitled to.

There has been no suggestion from me or others about your husbands credit record or his lack of a criminal record, nor is their any suggestion that they might be in a negative light.

I am not suggesting either for one moment your husband should not have been entitled to a happy life, nor am I suggesting that your visa should not have been issued.

If you qualified under the rules, and the entry clearance officer decided you should be admitted to our country, then his or her decision has been given, it is not a matter for me or others here to assess whether any one paticular person qualifies to come to our country, that is not our job.

I will restate my position to you, at this moment in time, I do not believe that someone who is in receipt of public funds either through local authorities or state assitance should be able to sponsor a foreigner to come and live in our country.

Housing benefit comes from local authority tax payers money, funded through the council tax, rate support grant, and central government grant, also those in receipt of housing benefit do not pay any council tax to support local funded services such as the Fire department, Police Service, having your trash emptied, meals on wheels, libraries, parks, public amenities.

Housing benefit payments generally mean that person is on Income support as well, its rare that someone on Housing benefit will not also be an Income support claimant.

If that person is on Income support as well as Housing benefit and Council tax benefit, child benefit and Income support for any children, this can result in someone who works in the job market having to earn an Income through their job of around £22,000 - £24,000 per year.

For those in receipt of such a generous package, may consider that in this day and age, its hardly worth working, when they do the maths, and decide they are better off as they are.

Should they be able then in that situation to genuinely sponsor a foreigner to enter our country to live from such benefits, and be accomodated then at the tax payers expenses ?

If so....then I have a real problem with that.

I think my position is clear...

NO THEY SHOULD NOT !!

[KeithD]

Regarding my husband's application for my visa, eventhough he is on DLA why should he not be allowed to sponsor me? My husband is on DLA which he does not like to receive but his total nervous system was messed up by long term prescription drugs which at the age of 40 the medical profession in their ultimate wisdom tried to withdraw him from. He was a fairly successful plumber and heating engineer then, he owned his own business and due to the reaction from the sudden drug withdrawal he is now unable to work. My husband is a model citizen who has never had any CCJs or criminal record of any kind. So does your thinking rule out the fact that my husband has not got a right to life?

If that is true, he can sue them for a lot of money to support him till he dies. You are compensated in this country for any medical cockups. If he hasn't sued, then something doesn't sound right here.

[KeithD]

...and my views are the opposite of Pete, I think people should be able to do what they like with money. Sicknes benefits are given to people to improve quality of life, if that means a happy marriage to a Filipina then great, better than spending tax payers money on alcohol, drugs, ciggies & women............and then wasting the rest!! :rolleyes:

We live in a democracy and can have these chats without being shot, even if I'm always right :icon_lol:

[charlwill]

...and my views are the opposite of Pete, I think people should be able to do what they like with money. Sicknes benefits are given to people to improve quality of life, if that means a happy marriage to a Filipina then great, better than spending tax payers money on alcohol, drugs, ciggies & women............and then wasting the rest!! :rolleyes:

We live in a democracy and can have these chats without being shot, even if I'm always right :icon_lol:
I agree with you Boss kEITH!!!

[ginapeterb]

Keith I thought that also, this story is a half story, its lacking certain facts to make it ring true, and Durkhaima's statement that "He does not like to receive' quite frankly is laughable, I mean who does not like to receive free money ?

I complained to Kentucky Fried Chicken about one of their restaraunts about 2 weeks ago, they wrote back to me this week and sent me a voucher in apology for an 8 peice family meal at at any KFC restaraunt of my choice.

Do you think I was not happy to recieve it......GAGU !

Of course I was, Gin Gin and I had a fantastic meal at another KFC on Saturday afternoon, and I can tell you, not paying for it from my own income is a far nicer thought than actually paying for it.

So people who say to me, "They dont like to receive it" they look Gagu !

[joebloggs]

i can understand what your saying peter, but no visa app or case is the same, where does the case worker draw the line for granting a visa or refusing it, there must be many borderline cases, and your dealing with peoples lifes. i know many of immigration rules, as i've had to get to know what they are, when i was applying for ILR for my stepson, who had turned 18. I'm sure they take into account wether the applicant owns their own home and has savings, i can understand if they are on nothing but JSA, then yes,i can understand a refusal, as that benefit is for one person only, and like you say after 6 months it can be means tested.

as for DLA, would you swap places with him peter? i'm sure he would rather work, that be ill and be on DLA, i don't think you would, i know i wouldn't.. , i kinda know how he feels, i've been pushed to the edge myslef a few times, but not far enough as i'm a stuborn :censored:, unlike my mother who had a total breakdown, and believe me you would never wish it on anyone, you and a doctor can see and heal your broken bone, but not a broken mind.. :NoNo:

[kimmi]

hi everyone,

i do learn a lot reading this thread.. it gives me knowledge and information about how public funds work in UK and I can say now that I have a better understanding on it..

I understand peter's sentiments when he talked about paying high taxes..and i agree when he says that no people will say they don't like to receive it (public funds) but I was moved with Joe's explanation above and for me it depends on the person who are on receipt of public fund on how he will use the money that he is receiving..

and we should be thankful that we're not on their situation,that we are strong enough to work and do the jobs which we think will help us..I know most of the people who are in public funds dont like their situation but there are some who are taking advantage of the opportunity.

we should look at the bright side of life, i know how hard it is to work just to earn money to make a decent and comfortable life but i guess it is better that we should feel blessed that in our own little ways we can help other people.

[ginapeterb]

Charlwill


agree with you Boss kEITH!!!

On what basis do you agree with Keith ? perhaps you can explain your position on why you think he is right in his assertions ?
I would be very happy to hear it, and then you can add your very valuable contribution to the debate.

Keith has his position, of which I respect his opinion, I am duty bound to say I have to 100 per cent disagree with him, but it does not mean we are not mates here at this forum.

I think Keiths argument is fundamentally flawed, by saying that its much better for the benefits to be spent supporting a life with a foreign citizen rather than the money being spent on drugs and alchohol, I think both examples are misuse of public funds.

I am also in agreement that public funds are wasted also in other areas too numerous to mention on this forum, but our debate is whether those funds should be used to supplement the lifestyle of a foreign national.

Joe, I absolutely agree with you, ECO's arbtirarily make decisions that affect peoples lifes, that I have no doubt, its one of the frustrations of the whole system, Joe I would agree with you, that if the applicant has one or two benefits paid to them to enhance their life as Kieth has pointed out, then provided they have other income and provided they can demonstrate that they are not soley reliant on state benefits, I would concede to you, that I have no problem with them being granted entry clearance for their partners.

As for DLA you are 100 per cent spot on, I would not wish to swap places with them, personally I agree with you, I would much rather work than have DLA, of course I would, I would not wish to live on benefits, because I know what restrictions the system places on ones who have to live that way.

I want to be free to earn my own money, and spend it in a way that I would wish, I ask the state for nothing, and expect nothing, if I was ever in a position where I could not work, naturally I may find myself in a position where I needed state help to pay my way through life, on that basis, I refer you back to a couple of posts on this thread I made earlier, I fully accept that there are needs in some cases.

You asked where they draw the line ? to be quite honest with you, I dont know the answer to that question ! thankfully I dont get to make those decisions, yes I am sure there are borderline cases, where income is weak, but the rules remain the same don't they ?

"The sponsor must be able to show evidence that they can support the applicant without recourse to public funds"

If this rule is hard and fast, and from what some of you tell me, its not the case, then many of the cases where sponsors are reliant on public funds, would result in a refusal to issue a visa, as happned in Kennys case, that I saw back in 2004.

At the end of the day, its not down to me who comes to this country and who does not !

I have a viewpoint, its been stated, I do not agree with people who are in receipt of public funds, sponsoring foreign nationals to come and live here, the benefits they claim are paid to them, not to foreign nationals to come and live on at the tax payers expense.

We can all beg to disagree on a freindly basis, it all makes for a good debate, and lets face it, who would want to bring their babae over from the Phils on JSA...

Lets be serious about it ? how long is that going to last !

[joebloggs]

I agree with you about the debate bit :D

the number of people who are on benefits and want to bring their wife/husband here must be small, as on this forum, i can only remember a couple of people asking about it.

i find most of the visa process a joke, we've mentioned people on benefits, what about low incomes- those who apply for child benefit and tax creds/working creds or use 3rd party support, this would have effected me, but you have to look long term, my wife within months of coming here was looking for a job, took her months to find one, she now works part time for the NHS, but is a doctor of medicine, shes taking 1 of her board exams on thursday, and the next prob in jan, at the moment we're claiming tax creds for our daughter and son, but soon as she starts work as a doc, we will no longer be able to, nor do we expect to claim any benefits, but she plans on being a consultant, and will be then paying a higher rate of tax, most filipinas are educated to a higher level than your average brit, and i'm sure most would not want to or be on any sort of benefit for long.

to me a bigger problem is people who overstay on a visa here, or are illegal immigrants and can go back home and successfully apply for a spouse visa, and then come back legally. they've broken the law and yet it may not effect their spouse visa app.

talking about a burden to the tax payer, what about eastern europeans, or infact any europeans are able to claim child benefit or tax creds for thier children back home, and when they've worked in the uk a year, they are allowed to claim benefits just lthe same as any brit. but my wife on a spouse visa cannot claim for 2 years, even if shes worked for nearly a year.

and finally my moan about cultures, i work with two libyans, and just before one of them got married, he meet his wife to be, twice in a tent in the desert for 1hr a time !, yet that is enough evidence of a relationship to get a visa, but for most of us, its months of emails, letters, visits etc and then wondering if we have enough evidence to convince the case worker.

I want a fair system for all, same rules for everyone, if you need to be working, have a minmum salary, certain amount of savings, evidence of a relationship - 3 months/ 6 months what ever the figure, but the same rules or a point system that applies to everyone, so everyone knows what the rules are and what you need to get that spouse visa..

i know the gov is bringing in a point system for workpermits/immigrants? as they have already for HSMP. and they are going to 'simpilfy' immigration law' , i'll wait and see what they do :rolleyes:

[KeithD]

I actually have less in my pocket than when not working :BouncyHappy: , if you include rent/council tax, incapicity, and war pension supplements I lost, I'm down around £200 a week!!!

[charlwill]

Pete, I do understand your sentiment regarding this topic, I live long enough in this country to understand how the public funds work. I do agree with Keith for what said that people should be able to do what they like with money. But of course I am against people receiving benefits from the government, then, they have to spend it with ciggies and alcohol.

[joebloggs]

well, if anyone wants to try it, send me your weekly wage, and i'll send you £59 a week to live off :D, see if you last a couple of days. :icon_lol:, £59 a week will buy you what a pack of cigs and a pint of beer a day? :Erm:, not sure as i don't drink or smoke, i don't have the money for them luxuries :doh, and remember for some of those on benefits, its prob the only luxury they have :NoNo:...

[Gie]

Its alright for people to depend on public funds if they are unable to work (e.g. long term sick, had an accident) that means that taxes they pay before are working for them when they need it.

But some people depends on benefits are just plain lazy! And I hate those people! Especially a family with 10 children and both parents are not working and just depending on benefits, duh!

[andypaul]

I think someone who is unable to work and has paided into the system should get something back thats the whole point and why we pay tax (well ok apart from mr admin who dodges them:omg: with the help of his accoutnant)
National insurance as it states is an insurance fund just as many of us pay further income protection/house/bulidings and motor insurance.

If the people only claim for themselves and waste their "insurance income" on candyfloss then good for them but then they can afford it as they get free dental care, when they become diabetic due to the sugar again they don't need to bother about prescriptions as its paid for them. Which they don't need to pay for as they don't pay any income tax or national insurance.
I think people need to have cvill responsbilty, yeah i pay National insurance for people like Durkhaima husband because they paid in when working incase i became ill thats how soceity works. We look after one another but if Durkhaimas hubby was drinking ten pints a day and needing far more medical care because of this i would be offended as a citzen of the country we have to have responbilty for our actions. Which from what you have written he would agree with.

Im sure he has savings and insurance payouts which helped him show that you could be supported for two years with out requiring public funds like many of us did. I also bet the savings counted agaisnt him when looking to claim benefits which were rightfully his to look after himself.

My Wife was told by various people that she should claim as much as she could from the goverment now she has ILR. This goes agaisnt all our beliefs and that benefits are for those who geniunely need them like Durkhaima husband and others who have hit hard times, not so my wife can sit at home or subsidise her income.
If only those who really need to be supported were entitled to money from the NI funds im sure higher payouts could be achieved which would benefits those who really deserve it.

There are a small but signifcant minority of the workforce in the UK who im sure we all know could get a job and work but find it easier not to. Strange how fillpinas can find jobs, many with out any qualfications recognised in the UK and not all at the minimum wage.

[joebloggs]

Its alright for people to depend on public funds if they are unable to work (e.g. long term sick, had an accident) that means that taxes they pay before are working for them when they need it.

But some people depends on benefits are just plain lazy! And I hate those people! Especially a family with 10 children and both parents are not working and just depending on benefits, duh!

10 kids :yikes:, i pitty them, if you've got 10 kids, you got no time for work :icon_lol:, and the cost :NoNo:, 10 would drive you :Rasp:


yes i know what you mean, and i don't think there are many like that thou, the parents are just irresponsible, not many people can support 10 kids,i've got trouble with 3, and we both work :cwm24:. the thing is, both parents would have to work, and i dont think they could get a job which paid enough to feed and clothe 10 kids :NoNo:, just my little gal cost us, £8 for her lunch a week, £30 a wk for child minder (less than 1hr aday) to take her to school and kidzone at school £7 a week, thats £45 awk just for one :cwm24:

problem is, as i've said, not many employers will give someone who is long term unemployed a job, like a said before some are unemployable, most thou just need for someone to give them a break, a bit of self esteem and dignity, and a new start:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[andypaul]

10 kids :yikes:, i pitty them, if you've got 10 kids, you got no time for work :icon_lol:, and the cost :NoNo:, 10 would drive you :Rasp:


yes i know what you mean, and i don't think there are many like that thou, the parents are just irresponsible, not many people can support 10 kids,i've got trouble with 3, and we both work :cwm24:. the thing is, both parents would have to work, and i dont think they could get a job which paid enough to feed and clothe 10 kids :NoNo:, just my little gal cost us, £8 for her lunch a week, £30 a wk for child minder (less than 1hr aday) to take her to school and kidzone at school £7 a week, thats £45 awk just for one :cwm24:

problem is, as i've said, not many employers will give someone who is long term unemployed a job, like a said before some are unemployable, most thou just need for someone to give them a break, a bit of self esteem and dignity, and a new start:xxgrinning--00xx3:


Joe many of us have had a time where we have worried if we will get another job wheter its a week or years. Its a horrible feeling and those who want a new start never stop even if really depressed and down i have had mates in that situation. But if i offer them some work assiting me with some DIY or know of some temp work at my workplace or at an associates they will always apply whatever it is as i would.

But sadly there is a hardcore who just know how to use the system. I've met them, and know some and see them in the pubs as i go past after work. I have had to interview people who come to the interview who will make sure i don't want to offer them the role.
Even sometimes if its a temp job starting the role and somehow managing to get out of it by the end of the day. Those few make me so dam angry as they only do it to keep the benefits from what i belief.