If the killer Marine is guilty, what about Blair?

[Dedworth]

Should ‘Marine A’ —the 39-year-old Royal Marines sergeant convicted of murdering a wounded Taliban prisoner — be shown clemency in the form of a shorter-than-usual jail sentence?
No, says the Chief of Defence Staff, Sir Nicholas Houghton. He insists that any kind of special pleading would be wrong. The military ‘can’t put itself beyond the law,’ by ignoring this ‘heinous’ crime, he says.
A former Chief of Defence Staff, Sir Charles Guthrie, said earlier: ‘The military should observe the highest standards, and if some crime is committed, like everybody else they should pay the price. I don’t know whether there were any mitigating circumstances, but murder is murder.’
Did Sir Nicholas and Sir Charles confer — or arrive independently at the same conclusion?
The trial has been going on for some time. It’s likely there was some discussion among service chiefs — and former senior officers who might be asked to comment publicly — about what line to take when the verdict was in.
The top brass have decided to support the verdict and likely life sentence. Only Major General Julian Thompson, who led 3 Commando in the Falklands, said of Marine A: ‘I won’t condemn him. It is like a member of the family who has broken the law — you don’t reject them, but you support them.’
Establishment determination to stick to the letter of the law over Marine A is in contrast to its behaviour in the Chilcot Inquiry into how we were led into the invasion of Iraq by Tony Blair.
The committee chairman Sir John Chilcot, discloses that 25 notes from then-president George W. Bush to Blair — and some 200 Cabinet- level discussions — have been withheld by No 10.
As a result, the publication of the report, four years after the inquiry began, is delayed. Chilcot calls the delay ‘regrettable.’

However, we do have an insight into the Bush/Blair re-invasion conversations. Blair’s chief of staff was Jonathan Powell, whose wife, Sarah Helm, wrote a play, Loyalty, about this period.
Although she insists the work is fictional, it’s widely suspected of being an actual account of what happened.
In it, the character playing the role of Powell notes that Blair tells Bush in a telephone call about invading Iraq: ‘We will be with you whatever.’ ‘Powell’ later changes it to read, ‘You can count on us, whatever.’ Making Blair’s promise far more vague.
‘Marine A’ faced the full force of military law and was convicted of battlefield murder in Afghanistan, in which 446 UK troops — many of them Marines — have been killed in Taliban bombings and ambushes. Part of the evidence against him was provided by film from a helmet camera of a fellow Marine. There was also the diary jottings of a colleague who was present.
But I wonder in the circumstances if he would have been convicted of murder by a civilian jury?
Yet the military establishment supports Marine A’s conviction and sentence. Chief of Defence Staff Houghton calls his crime ‘heinous,’ meaning ‘utterly evil.’
Only the place and circumstances of the crime — an Afghanistan firefight — can now mitigate, i.e. lessen, the length of time he has to serve.
Seeing colleagues blown to pieces, shot dead, or wounded severely, will be considered. So might the claim of troops that the Taliban taunted them by hanging the body parts of blown-apart British troops from trees.
Marine A’s life — and that of his family — is destroyed for ending the life of a grievously-injured Taliban fighter who would probably have died anyway.
The honour and reputation of our military is upheld by this prosecution, allowing our top brass to mouth platitudes about not putting themselves above the law.
But can they be proud, too, of the shady, behind-the-scenes manoeuvring to save the face of Tony Blair, delaying the inquiry into a controversial war estimated to have cost 189,000 lives?


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2499236/PETER-McKAY-If-killer-Marine-guilty-Blair.html#ixzz2kU0SPCST

[tiger31]

lets put the boot on the other foot ,do ya think the taliban .... would have shown the same mercy if it was the brit lying there exactly he would have got the bullit too .The guy should,nt even be convicted no wonder lads don,t want to join the army anymore .

[joebloggs]

lets put the boot on the other foot ,do ya think the taliban .... would have shown the same mercy if it was the brit lying there exactly he would have got the bullit too .The guy should,nt even be convicted no wonder lads don,t want to join the army anymore .

the marine was having a laugh about shooting the taliban guy, and then admits he just broke the Geneva convention, he wasn't a newbie he had 15yrs of service in the army.

i don't think the marine should get life thou :NoNo:

this is why people don't join the army and it must be true its in the news paper of the year :biggrin:

Morale in the Armed Forces has plummeted in the last three years as jobs losses and pay cuts take their toll.

New figures show the number of soldiers in the British Army reporting low morale has doubled since 2010 to 30 per cent.

Ministers admitted deep cuts to the Defence budget and restructuring was having an ‘inevitable’ impact on the mood among troops.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2454751/Low-morale-British-Army-DOUBLES-years-defence-cuts-toll.html

[tiger31]

do you not think the taliban laugh when they blow our troops to bits and shout god is great using IED,S .If I was in his shoes I would pump in the whole magazine just to make sure he did,nt breed more vermin .wether he was a 15 year man or not has nothing to do with it ,the taliban don,t recognise no geneva convention .Thats the problem with us we fight with one arm tied behind our backs .hey wait mr taliban while I get out my rules of engagement :cwm23: The taliban only chop off the prisoners heads in the end so for me eff them eye for an eye

[joebloggs]

they probably do laugh, but two wrongs don't make it right, why do you think they didn't release the video ?, imagine what the Taliban will do to any British soldiers they do catch now, even the moderate ones will be :mad:, i don't know if the taliban take prisoners, they probably will not anymore :NoNo: and that cant be good for those Brits fighting there :NoNo:

[andy222]

They are not there to make friends joe its a war. The taliban dont show any mercy.

[les_taxi]

do you not think the taliban laugh when they blow our troops to bits and shout god is great using IED,S .If I was in his shoes I would pump in the whole magazine just to make sure he did,nt breed more vermin .wether he was a 15 year man or not has nothing to do with it ,the taliban don,t recognise no geneva convention .Thats the problem with us we fight with one arm tied behind our backs .hey wait mr taliban while I get out my rules of engagement :cwm23: The taliban only chop off the prisoners heads in the end so for me eff them eye for an eye
Too right Tiger its a bloody war not a bun fight:doh
Have some rep for that:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[tiger31]

Too right Tiger its a bloody war not a bun fight:doh
Have some rep for that:xxgrinning--00xx3:
:xxgrinning--00xx3: I do get fed up with people defending the indefendable

[les_taxi]

I agree with that,at the end of the day we owe our freedom to these guys,Ok it wasn't ideal but it's the Enemy-you have to take em out no matter what.
I don't give a toss he was wounded-he would have butchered our guys given the chance,he was put out of his misery in a humane way-not chopped up while still alive.

[joebloggs]

so you've no problem in any future 'wars' the enemy doing the same to British soldiers :NoNo:

how many British soldiers have been chopped up les ?

[les_taxi]

They already do that the Islamic extremists so blow as many as possible away.
I have no problem with that in a war situation

[tiger31]

so you've no problem in any future 'wars' the enemy doing the same to British soldiers :NoNo:

how many British soldiers have been chopped up les ?

well the JAPS done quite a few in malaysia more than they cared to admit ,These animals the taliban use kids as suicide bombers do we really care if they if they die in unsavory circumstances no we don,t .why do you keep making statements about their rights when they offer none in return ?

[joebloggs]

I don't care about the taliban or their rights, this thread is about a marine with 15yrs experience who was found guilty by 7 other army officers of executing a wounded prisoner and laughed about it :NoNo:

[Pete/London]

Dealt with internally would have been better, then taught how to turn off helmet cameras.

[imagine]

whatever is right or wrong about this, every country that has been at war has carried out inhumane acts against its enemy, this includes british forces at war, its what happens in war, i listened to so many world war 2 veterens as i grew up stories of what they did to captured german soldiers, so on that score every country carries its guilt,
the difference these days is the media, do anything and the world can see and judge

[Dedworth]

Dealt with internally would have been better, then taught how to turn off helmet cameras.

As I said on another thread his punishment should be the standard left wingers one for when public servants fail miserably in their duty (Police, NHS, Social Services etc) suspend on full pay for a few months, find them in the wrong, sentence to "words of advice", 6 figure pay off and redeploy within same organisation

[joebloggs]

As I said on another thread his punishment should be the standard left wingers one for when public servants fail miserably in their duty (Police, NHS, Social Services etc) suspend on full pay for a few months, find them in the wrong, sentence to "words of advice", 6 figure pay off and redeploy within same organisation

dedworth your so quick to condemn doctors who have made a mistake and you want to throw the book at them, yet you defend the SAS guy who was caught with a loaded gun and now this marine who was found guilty of executing a prisoner by 7 army officers, looks to me like you've got double standards :doh

[tiger31]

I don't care about the taliban or their rights, this thread is about a marine with 15yrs experience who was found guilty by 7 other army officers of executing a wounded prisoner and laughed about it :NoNo:

if you don,t care about the taliban why highlight what happens to them under handliy .

[Dedworth]

dedworth your so quick to condemn doctors who have made a mistake and you want to throw the book at them, yet you defend the SAS guy who was caught with a loaded gun and now this marine who was found guilty of executing a prisoner by 7 army officers, looks to me like you've got double standards :doh

The double standards are evident in the "punishments" dished out by handwringers to public servants. Have any of the Police, Social Workers, Teachers etc in Coventry who failed in their duty over the murdered Polish boy been brought to court, lost their jobs ? No I thought not but they've all been given mealy mouthed "words of advice"

[andy222]

As I said on another thread his punishment should be the standard left wingers one for when public servants fail miserably in their duty (Police, NHS, Social Services etc) suspend on full pay for a few months, find them in the wrong, sentence to "words of advice", 6 figure pay off and redeploy within same organisation
They can gladly suspend me on full pay and give me a six figure sum thankyou very much.:xxgrinning--00xx3:. Now back to the topic. He wasnt a prisoner he was a member of the taliban there is a difference. Our army was sent out there to sort them out and thats what that guy did.

[Dedworth]

They can gladly suspend me on full pay and give me a six figure sum thankyou very much.:xxgrinning--00xx3:. Now back to the topic. He wasnt a prisoner he was a member of the taliban there is a difference. Our army was sent out there to sort them out and thats what that guy did.

:xxgrinning--00xx3: I doubt if you could misbehave to the extent that warrants that sort of punishment Andy

The Taliban scum are unlawful combatants and as such shouldn't have any "rights"

[andy222]

I agree.:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

The double standards are evident in the "punishments" dished out by handwringers to public servants. Have any of the Police, Social Workers, Teachers etc in Coventry who failed in their duty over the murdered Polish boy been brought to court, lost their jobs ? No I thought not but they've all been given mealy mouthed "words of advice"

you can blame your Tory gov dedworth for not changing the law and passing the buck :NoNo:

but maybe slowly there will be a change - I've posted about it on here and signed petitions to get it changed.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/daniel-pelka-headteacher-darren-clews-2710413

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/change-the-law-to-better-protect-vulnerable-children-like-daniel-pelka

[joebloggs]

if you don,t care about the taliban why highlight what happens to them under handliy .

its not about the taliban its about a marine executing a prisoner, would it be ok if he was German or some other nationality ?

[les_taxi]

Well interesting point Joe,but he was not a prisoner he was the enemy who we tried to kill,we only wounded him so the soldier finished him off and should be applauded.
I find it hard to give any compassion to the Taliban as they do the most in-humane things imaginable as posted on here.
Going back to Germans,Argies etc many will have been finished off no doubt and so have British servicemen too-surely in a war the aim is to eliminate the Enemy?

[joebloggs]

Well interesting point Joe,but he was not a prisoner he was the enemy who we tried to kill,we only wounded him so the soldier finished him off and should be applauded.
I find it hard to give any compassion to the Taliban as they do the most in-humane things imaginable as posted on here.
Going back to Germans,Argies etc many will have been finished off no doubt and so have British servicemen too-surely in a war the aim is to eliminate the Enemy?

your wrong Les, there were many British prisoners of war in WW2, why didn't the Germans just kill them ?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british_prisoners_of_war.htm

the Japs didn't sign til 1942 :NoNo:

[Pete/London]

the Japs didn't sign til 1942 :NoNo:

Actually I thought the Japanese Empire were signatories to the 1864 original Geneva Convention

[joebloggs]

Actually I thought the Japanese Empire were signatories to the 1864 original Geneva Convention

Japan did not sign the 1929 Geneva Convention on the Prisoners of War (except the 1929 Geneva Convention on the Sick and Wounded),[16] though in 1942, it did promise to abide by its terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Japan did sign the Convention, but did not ratify it. They were a "state signatory." The list of 9 countries that were only state signatories.
http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/States.xsp?xp_viewStates=XPages_NORMStatesSign&xp_treatySelected=305

[les_taxi]

your wrong Les, there were many British prisoners of war in WW2, why didn't the Germans just kill them ?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british_prisoners_of_war.htm

the Japs didn't sign til 1942 :NoNo:

I know there were many pow who were not killed in second world war as there was a code of honour,something the Taliban would never do so to hell with the Taliban.
The 2nd world war was different and many soldiers were captured in one go too,different times and scenario

[joebloggs]

I know there were many pow who were not killed in second world war as there was a code of honour,something the Taliban would never do so to hell with the Taliban.
The 2nd world war was different and many soldiers were captured in one go too,different times and scenario

end result is the same , do you kill a prisoner or not :NoNo:

[Dedworth]

end result is the same , do you kill a prisoner or not :NoNo:

Prisoner ? He was an unlawful combatant

I wonder if the Yanks and other allied forces have to put up with all this crap when they send a vile piece of trash to his maker ?

[joebloggs]

He was an unlawful combatant



:xxgrinning--00xx3:thats exactly what the marine was, we agree for once :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[les_taxi]

Yes in certain circumstances :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[joebloggs]

Yes in certain circumstances :xxgrinning--00xx3:

i'm glad you've finally seen the light les :biggrin:

[les_taxi]

That was yes to executing taliban:biggrin:
Hope you did not mis-understand:biggrin:

[joebloggs]

Prisoner ? He was an unlawful combatant

I wonder if the Yanks and other allied forces have to put up with all this crap when they send a vile piece of trash to his maker ?


:xxgrinning--00xx3:thats exactly what the marine was, we agree for once :xxgrinning--00xx3:


That was yes to executing taliban:biggrin:
Hope you did not mis-understand:biggrin:

unlawful combatant is a civilian or military personnel who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war. An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action; subject of course to international treaties on justice and human rights such as everyone's right to a fair trial

the marine is the unlawful combatant , he was found guilty by a court

no misunderstanding there les

[Dedworth]

unlawful combatant is a civilian or military personnel who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war. An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action; subject of course to international treaties on justice and human rights such as everyone's right to a fair trial




He may be detained. In this case he wasn't Marine A quite rightly finished off the Apaches job

[les_taxi]

Getting bored of this one now let's agree to differ:Brick:

[joebloggs]

Getting bored of this one now let's agree to differ:Brick:

you better get back to medal of honor les :biggrin:

:xxparty-smiley-004:

[les_taxi]

Cod ghosts thank you :biggrin:

[joebloggs]

Cod ghosts thank you :biggrin:

have you taken any prisoners :biggrin: can you take prisoners :Erm:

[les_taxi]

Take prisoners ha ha I even shoot my own men if possible:biggrin:
now getting distracted as I have got my 'Demo' Of the new Assassins Creed game to check out:xxgrinning--00xx3: