Doctors from the EU to face language tests

[Dedworth]

Doctors from the EU to face language tests for the first time in 30 years to improve patient safety

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2568213/Foreign-doctors-prove-English-skills-rigorous-new-tests.html#ixzz2uQrOLmSl

About time too.

This should be retrospective and all foreign doctors regardless of nationality and how long they've practiced be subjected to tests. Any failing should automatically be struck off and barred.

[Arthur Little]

:iagree: ... damned right they should! :23_116_6[1]: ... if
our Filipino partners - all of whom are already taught in English - are required, by law, to pass such Tests for settlement, then how much more important it is for non-British EU medics treating the sick and infirm to learn our language in order to be able to communicate clearly and effectively with the patients under their care.

[Arthur Little]

Talking about the importance of clear & effective diction, I've just this minute had the misfortune to receive one of those f:censored:ing phone calls from a bloke with an Indian (or similar) accent - canvassing, :icon_rolleyes: I've no doubt, on behalf of some obscure firm ... whose name I didn't hang on long enough to interpet :nono-1-1: - I simply cut the guy off without further ado!

[Dedworth]

Talking about the importance of clear & effective diction, I've just this minute had the misfortune to receive one of those f:censored:ing phone calls from a bloke with an Indian (or similar) accent - canvassing, :icon_rolleyes: I've no doubt, on behalf of some obscure firm ... whose name I didn't hang on long enough to interpet :nono-1-1: - I simply cut the guy off without further ado!

A sure fire way to get shot of them Arthur is to say you're bankrupt or that you are the person they're asking fors cousin and that he died yesterday :biggrin:

[Arthur Little]

A sure fire way to get shot of them Arthur is to say you're bankrupt or that you are the person they're asking fors cousin and that he died yesterday :biggrin:

:NEW3: ... good :idea:!

:yeahthat: ... although I suspected the :telephone: caller might've been an Indian ... a fakir (spelt faker!) possibly even ... :anerikke: ... he was most likely just
a lowly employee of yet another of those pesky "cowboy" outfits. :laugher:

[Terpe]

For many months I was plagued by an overseas fax :cwm23:

Anyway back on topic......I'm glad to see some common sense being applied where it's seriously needed.
Adequate language competency should be imposed on nursing staff too ....IMHO

[Dedworth]

For many months I was plagued by an overseas fax :cwm23:

Anyway back on topic......I'm glad to see some common sense being applied where it's seriously needed.
Adequate language competency should be imposed on nursing staff too ....IMHO

Quite right in fact it should apply to all NHS staff medical, nursing, admin the lot - it is the British National Health Service - not the Indian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Hungarian etc National Health Service

[grahamw48]

About bloody time. :mad:

[Doc Alan]

Of course good communication skills are vital for all doctors working in the UK :xxgrinning--00xx3:.


It’s regrettable that testing of non-UK European doctors – about 1/10 of all those on the UK register - has been delayed so long, and is not expected to come into force until this summer. Under European legislation the GMC has not been allowed to ask EU trained nationals to demonstrate language competency as a requirement for registration in the UK.


The GMC will, from this summer, require an overall score of 7.5 out of 9 in the IELTS for European doctors as well as doctors from overseas. It is responsible for undergraduate and postgraduate medical education and standards. As IELTS was NOT designed for doctors the GMC should have taken this chance to require more medically orientated tests of communication skills for ALL doctors ( as happens in other countries ).



There is indeed also a strong case for nurses to have good communication skills, part of which includes effective communication in English. Our Nursing and Midwifery Council ( NMC ) still, to my knowledge, claim that they are not allowed to require the evidence of IELTS for EU nationals which they routinely do for non EU trained applicants ( at least 7 overall ). By the same reasoning, why not also test dentists, managers, and others in responsible jobs where ability to communicate well is vital ?


The buck may stop with the GMC. However, it’s not just up to the GMC to ensure good communication skills. Employers, including locum agencies, already play a vital part at the time of recruitment, and must continue to do so. They are more likely to recognise, early and at a local level, ideally at time of job interview, a doctor with substandard communication skills, so keeping errors to a minimum.



It’s also worth noting that the required communication skills should be what patients – and their representatives - think correct, not just doctors, managers, and regulators . Not all patients speak English ; some clinical specialties require greater language skills than others ; and good communication doesn’t just depend on proficiency in the English language. The work and skills required of a Bradford GP are very different to an " X-Ray " doctor, or university medical professor. One reason a third of UK doctors have their primary medical qualification from abroad ( 1/10 from India ) is because they are in vital specialities which are unpopular with UK graduates. ALL patients living legally in the UK have the right to expect the best treatment and appropriate communication skills.


http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/44664-Communication-by-foreign-doctors-in-the-UK?highlight=doctors

[joebloggs]

it is the British National Health Service - not the Indian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Hungarian etc National Health Service

dedworth most of them will have got 7.5 in each section of the academic version of IELTS already . even some British doctors will have had to take it.

[Dedworth]

dedworth most of them will have got 7.5 in each section of the academic version of IELTS already . even some British doctors will have had to take it.

I'd also be doing thorough checks and verification of their qualifications, IELTS results etc to weed out those who have fraudulently obtained employment

[joebloggs]

I'd also be doing thorough checks and verification of their qualifications, IELTS results etc to weed out those who have fraudulently obtained employment

dedworth GMC already check them, i've even been to the GMC to drop some papers off for the misses.

[Dedworth]

dedworth GMC already check them, i've even been to the GMC to drop some papers off for the misses.

That's good to hear Joe but I feel that the state should be doing the checking

[joebloggs]

That's good to hear Joe but I feel that the state should be doing the checking

i know some IMG's have waited many weeks for the GMC to register them becuase of checks being carried out.

not all IMG'S are bad http://www.itv.com/news/2014-02-28/surgeon-helps-to-rebuild-lives-of-acid-attack-victims/:xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Dedworth]

Forgive my ignorance Joe what is an IMG ? I don't think a professional body should be trusted to do the checking, this should be done by the Govt - not foolproof I know look how many UKBA/Home Office sub continent and Nigerian employees have been up in court ( one at the moment http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/51270-UBKA-quot-director-quot-passed-sensitive-data-to-fake-immigration-lawyer?highlight=director)

[Doc Alan]

Please forgive me for offering an opinion – again – on this thread.


IMG’s are international medical graduates. The primary medical qualification of just over a third of these 260,000 doctors is from a country other than the UK ( around a tenth from India, 4% Pakistan, 2% each from South Africa, Ireland, and Nigeria, and so on ). Just over 10% are from the European Economic Area ( outside UK ).


It may well be – in some people’s ideal world - that the NHS is British, staffed entirely by healthcare workers trained in the UK. The reality is that our medical graduates don’t wish to work in certain specialties, nor can they be forced to do so. Paying agency doctors at extortionate rates is not a long term solution. Graduates from other countries are willing to take on these jobs. Of course a minority will prove to be inadequately or even fraudulently qualified. Others may have the communication skills and language abilities ( not always English, in our multicultural society ) required in such specialties . There are also a significant number of doctors from other countries who are highly skilled in their specialty and of great value to our NHS and / or universities.



The GMC is the independent regulator of the UK’s doctors. Its aim is to ensure proper standards in the practice of medicine. It does this by managing the entry to the medical register, which all doctors need to be eligible to work here. It sets educational standards for all UK doctors through our 32 medical schools. There are no two curricula which are the same across these medical schools. The GMC accepts the validity of them all. It also sets and tries to ensure acceptable standards in the foreign medical schools where IMG’s obtained their primary qualifications. It is responsible for postgraduate education and training in the UK, which must continue for the doctors’ working lives.


The GMC is of course not immune to criticism or errors, nor is it a quango limited to doctors. A small number of UK doctors do fall seriously short of the standards expected of them, and a few of these ( perhaps 1/3000 registered doctors ) are eventually struck off. Considering how costly it is to train doctors, and how hard it is to fill certain specialties, this is not a path to be undertaken lightly.


Neither the GMC nor any Government body is perfect, and IELTS is not necessarily the ideal – and certainly not the only - way to ensure good communication skills. Medical students are all taught – and doctors should continue to learn – a wide range of good communication skills.

It’s vital that these skills are assessed together with all other relevant qualifications, by the LOCAL appointments committee at the hospital, practice, or university where the doctor hopes to work. Such committees include doctors, managers, nurses, laboratory / other support staff, and members of the general public, in addition to regional and university specialists. Ideally the doctor is appointed for a provisional length of time, or does a locum, before definitive appointment. The GMC can’t possibly be involved directly in every UK appointment.



Our Filipino members may find this type of thread hard to understand – not because of poor communication – but because our NHS is the type of service they would so love to have. In the Philippines if you can’t afford treatment, the outcome is not good.

[Iani]

This could make me unpopular for expressing such an opinion, in fact a "right-on" some years ago tried to paint me as something I'm definitely not for expressing this.

The thing is - I understand some countries qualifications aren't recognised in the UK, but others are. It's already been said the origins of some medical staff in the NHS in this thread.

In personal experience, I've never met a decent doctor from one certain country. I won't name the country, or the doctors, I certainly could and am very tempted to, but...

Example one, this man was notorious in my town for being a complete ..... Rumour had it he was a failed surgeon and took his failure out on patients all his working life. He put my grandfather at risk. Well, I'll tell the story. My grandad could hardly move with pneumonia. My dad phoned the emergency line and the doctor on duty was unfortunately Dr "M". My dad described what was happening, and this M was abrupt as usual and demanded my dad bring him to the surgery. It was sleeting, my dad wrapped my grandad up and somehow got him there. M took a look at him and started shouting at my dad telling him off for bringing this man out. My dad flipped and shouted back saying it was his bloody insistance, with M saying you will not talk to me like that I am a doctor.
I know many many cases regarding this atrocious doctor.

Another Dr "U", he was known to have a racial dislike of whites, but nothing that could be proven. Plenty of stories of his abruptness and dismissal of patients concerns.

Another, Dr "G", I was warned not to go to him as everyone in Brighouse hated him. He got my medical history up, and started laughing at me because I had depression at 14-19, he made fun of the thing I was worried about.

Another at a local surgery, it was near impossible to understand him, he wore a dirty hat and the receptionists warned everyone to try avoid him.

All these have a thing in common, not just where they got their qualifications from, but that they were in the wrong profession?

[joebloggs]

The thing is - I understand some countries qualifications aren't recognised in the UK, but others are. It's already been said the origins of some medical staff in the NHS in this thread.



explains what is an acceptable qualification.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

for the phils there are 41 medical schools
https://imed.faimer.org/results.asp?country=748&school=&currpage=1&cname=PHILIPPINES&city=&region=AS&rname=Asia&psize=25

but its not just a simple as that, to register with the GMC, you need alot more than just a medical qualification from medical school on the list.

you need evidence of internship, certificate of good standing, pass IELTS academic with 7.5 in each section, pass PLAB1 exam (theory exam) PLAB2 exam (practical exam) just to get registered with the GMC.

some then go onto do foundation years 1 and 2 (what a British medical student would do after they have passed their degrees.) my misses has done this.

http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home/about-the-foundation-programme

some would then want to start specialist training, for example GP's
that a further 3yrs training and 2 exams ( a theory and a practical one)

it's a long process and your monitored along the way