Cameron Backtracks On Pre Election Pledges

[London_Manila]

All the tough talk about taking the UK out of the European human rights agreement has come to nothing
Fearing a backbench rebellion and a major public outcry Cameron bottles it and kicks this idea into the long grass
Cameron proves again that politicians pledges before elections mean nothing :cwm23:

[andy222]

Yep how many weeks has he been PM? First pledge broken. :doh

[imagine]

just like all the rest of the politicians :NoNo:

[les_taxi]

All the tough talk about taking the Uk out of the European human rights agreement has come to nothing
Fearing a backbench rebellion and a major public outcry Cameron bottles it and kicks this idea into the long grass
Cameron proves again that politicians pledges before elections mean nothing :cwm23:

Erm is this the same Prime Minister who has kept to his pledge to hold a referendum in Europe-you conveniently forgot to mention that :doh
The human rights issue was not his main priority at all but it looks like they are working on it.

[Trefor]

The issue is that if the bill won't get through the various stages to become law due to opposition from both Conservative and opposition MPs, and then the liberal biased House of Lords then it is a waste of time going for it until he can be sure it won't be a wasted effort. He needs to get the UK Bill of Rights which replaces the Act finished, sold to them etc. first.

[KeithD]

We don't need a new bill, we just need some minor changes to the current one. But as we all know, you can't negotiate with FIFA... :doh sorry, the EU. Both the same, run by power hungry corrupt officials :biggrin:

[les_taxi]

Yikes I'm agreeing with Keith again. That's twice in a month!

[London_Manila]

Erm is this the same Prime Minister who has kept to his pledge to hold a referendum in Europe-you conveniently forgot to mention that :doh
The human rights issue was not his main priority at all but it looks like they are working on it.

Before they won the election Les it was all the tough talk about the UK withdrawing from the European Human Rights Agreement
The reality is that they dont have the support to push through this idea so I class that as deceiving the voters

[imagine]

Before they won the election it was all the tough talk about the UK withdrawing from the European Human Rights Agreement
The reality is that they dont have the support to push through this idea so I class that as deceiving the voters

:iagree: they all the same too full of :censored:

[Arthur Little]

Here's the latest update from around an hour ago.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32909896

:yeahthat:'s hardly an indication of Cameron reneging on his EU pledge. :nono-1-1: ... although, Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond does rather put me in mind of the undertaker :cwm24: who arranged for the disposal of my late mother's ashes without [I] first consulting the family.

[les_taxi]

Before they won the election Les it was all the tough talk about the UK withdrawing from the European Human Rights Agreement
The reality is that they dont have the support to push through this idea so I class that as deceiving the voters

Disagree - the talk was mainly about a referendum for Europe - we will get that, regarding on deciding our own laws that will be tougher and maybe the only way to get that is to pull out of Europe :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Dedworth]

Disagree - the talk was mainly about a referendum for Europe - we will get that,regarding on deciding our own laws that will be tougher and maybe the only way to get that is to pull out of Europe :xxgrinning--00xx3:

They've still got to get the bile out of their systems Les, I'm quite happy turning a deaf ear to the nonsense and having a snigger at the Labour Leadership shenanigans as we await the union barons to start bringing them into line :biggrin:

[London_Manila]

They've still got to get the bile out of their systems Les, I'm quite happy turning a deaf ear to the nonsense and having a snigger at the Labour Leadership shenanigans as we await the union barons to start bringing them into line :biggrin:

Just remember only 25% of the UK Population actually voted for the Tories :wink:
I dont call that a mandate to govern and thats whats wrong with this first past the post system
Nice to see the employees of Network Rail giving Cameron and Co a good slap in the face
The right wing gutter press will trot out their usual nonsense about how could anyone in this day and age even think about going on strike and they should be lucky to have jobs :yawn:

[Arthur Little]

The right wing gutter press will trot out their usual nonsense about how could anyone in this day and age even think about going on strike and they should be lucky to have jobs :yawn:

Well ... :anerikke: ... they'd be spot-on there :icon_rolleyes: for once! :smile:

[Michael Parnham]

It would be great to pull out of Europe, but we can't afford to! :Erm:

[KeithD]

Some people would rather be inside Jordan :cwm24:

[London_Manila]

Well ... :anerikke: ... they'd be spot-on there :icon_rolleyes: for once! :smile:

That's true Arthur but many unscrupulous employers out there use that as a stick to beat their workers with
Zero pay rises and awful terms and conditions
Thats why normal workers need the protection and advice a Union can offer
Unions are not about bankrupting any company they are there to get a better deal for the workers

[les_taxi]

unions have their place but not at the expense of creating conditions which affect other businesses,Also I could stomach it more if they are fully supported by members-we have had plenty of strikes where only as little as 20% have voted to strike-hardly democratic :doh

[London_Manila]

unions have their place but not at the expense of creating conditions which affect other businesses,Also I could stomach it more if they are fully supported by members-we have had plenty of strikes where only as little as 20% have voted to strike-hardly democratic :doh

All ballots are democratic Les :doh
In most of these strike ballots and just like in the general election many people don't even bother voting
Its a bit rich when people like Boris Johnston start to demand certain percentages when as he was elected as London's Mayor the same percentages never applied to him
I just see these kind of demands as just moving the goalposts and very much like when the company owners try and get the strike called off on the grounds of some trivial legality
The Unions already have to jump through hoops to call any strike and the outcome of any democratic ballot should respected whatever the turnout
What is the next idea the Tories will dream up maybe a minimum percentage of the vote in favour of a strike
we can start of with 51% of the vote and eventually ending up with 100% with yearly increases
So no strikes unless 100% of all balloted people vote in favour of it :wink:

[SimonH]

All ballots are democratic Les :doh
In most of these strike ballots and just like in the general election many people don't even bother voting
Its a bit rich when people like Boris Johnston start to demand certain percentages when as he was elected as London's Mayor the same percentages never applied to him
I just see these kind of demands as just moving the goalposts and very much like when the company owners try and get the strike called off on the grounds of some trivial legality
The Unions already have to jump through hoops to call any strike and the outcome of any democratic ballot should respected whatever the turnout
What is the next idea the Tories will dream up maybe a minimum percentage of the vote in favour of a strike
we can start of with 51% of the vote and eventually ending up with 100% with yearly increases
So no strikes unless 100% of all balloted people vote in favour of it :wink:

:Erm: How about all those in favour of a strike, vote yes and those against don't have to bother to vote. Therefore you'll always get 100% of the members voting :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[KeithD]

Maybe the government should change the rules so that the first 4,000,000 votes don't count for anything :wink:

[Iani]

It would be great to pull out of Europe, but we can't afford to! :Erm:

We can, easily.

Thing is, it's a bigger and more complex issue than the politicians are admitting to. Why for example did a prosperous country with a very different economy and trading partners sign up to the EU in the first place? I suspect it was a long term view of changing world politics and the need to.........use the school student scenario - join up with one gang so the other gangs don't pick on you.

The UK though if out the EU would immediately gain billions a year in saved funds, would regain control of huge fishing waters and would be free to trade with the rest of the world without EU tariffs.
The problem for the EU enthusiasts with their mantra of "They are our biggest trading partners, they would take sanctions, the factories are only here to gain a foothold in the EU" etc is that the balance of trading is hugely in the favour of the rest of the EU. Taking sanctions against the UK would be akin to cutting off more than your nose. They'd be forced through pragmatism to agree trading agreements.

In short, not much would change. What would change would be a decrease in Eastern European migration to the UK (Probably not from Poland as they have a long relationship with the UK going back many decades and there would probably be an arrangement there) and an increase in migration from the rest of the world, Australia and the Far East, and possibly India (If public opinion allowed). Open to debate if this is good or bad.

Anyway, the whole thing is a fudge. Cameron could go to the EU and almost demand anything. He could demand a much looser trading arrangement instead of full membership and the EU desperate to keep the UK on board would probably agree, but he isn't even demanding a reduction in the right of movement - something which most people are wanting.
They will fluster, pretend to object, then agree to what he's asking - making it look like he's won some huge concession. Then Cameron will come back and trumpet he's gained all this and say to vote to stay in. More proof - traditionally the "Yes" option is always for the change. He is fixing it so the "positive" yes option is to stay in, leaving those wanting change to campaign on the "no" option. The man is a fraud

[les_taxi]

At the end of the day you will have a choice in or out basically - how can he be a fraud :Erm:
It will be up to the public.
Like the general Election - they got that right and deserted Labour :biggrin:

[KeithD]

The public will vote to stay in by around 5%-10%. However, what worries Cameron is keeping his own clan happy when it comes to Europe. So, unlike John Major who took a stand against the rebels, Cameron looks like he is trying to get some concessions so that he keeps everyone happy.

We only need to make changes on what benefits immigrants can get, including tax credits, stop child benefit if the kid is not in the country, do not give immigrants priority housing (they can share like students), and more criminal checks.

If we break from the EU we would not have use of France's aircraft carrier every other Wednesday :yikes:

[les_taxi]

I'm taking your predictions with caution Keith,you were wrong on Labour getting in :biggrin:
I agree with what you say what needs to be done.
I think staying in would still be the best financial option tho :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[KeithD]

I'm taking your predictions with caution Keith,you were wrong on Labour getting in :biggrin:


Even the professional Tory statisticians got that wrong. :biggrin:

Stay in or go out, the economics would not change. Some companies would leave, but with lower tariffs and incentives, others would come in. JCB have said the same.

[Ako Si Jamie]

Cameron proves again that politicians pledges before elections mean nothing :cwm23:Nothing new there. Voting is a farce. You may as well pick a name out from a hat to decide which con artist runs the country.

[les_taxi]

Why Is it a farce ?
Someone has to run the country

[Ako Si Jamie]

Why Is it a farce ?
Someone has to run the countryRead the thread title. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[les_taxi]

Have done and challenged the headline!

[Iani]

At the end of the day you will have a choice in or out basically - how can he be a fraud :Erm:
It will be up to the public.
Like the general Election - they got that right and deserted Labour :biggrin:

My reasoning on him being a fraud are

He is painting himself as wanting big concessions from the rest of the EU. He isn't asking much. He wants to limit benefits paid to migrants, which could be resolved by internal laws anyway. He wants protection for the financial markets, again there isn't really the threat, nothing an internal law and being better than the competition wouldn't solve. He wants to limit migration from new member states until their economy was more on a par with the rest of the existing EU........well this is likely to happen anyway as many other states were stung last time, and besides who will be next to join? Nobody is on course for this for many years. Turkey won't join as too many other states are against this.

He will demand these, the other states will in private breath a huge sigh of relief that it's all he wants, he will come back here and run a referendum stating he has these massive concessions when he's got nothing of the sort, and he's "fixed" the referendum by making sure the postive "yes" vote will be to stay in............exactly what he wants.

To put it another way, he saw a threat from UKIP. He saw his power base being chipped away, so he's pretended to be anti-EU to head off a UKIP threat. He knows damned well there will be no vote to come out, he will make sure of that.

He COULD on the other hand have demanded associate membership, similar to Norways but a bit closer, other states would have agreed to this rather than totally lose the UK (And their massive massive contributions/market for their goods), but this isn't what he wants. He's only having this referendum, which he will make damned sure goes his way, because voters dared to potentially vote against his re-election.

The biggest proof is that the "yes" option will be for the status quo, very different to convention on such matters. The other proof - his "demands" are very minor changes indeed. I'd be more impressed if he demanded an opt-out from free movement

[Dedworth]

Interesting article by Daniel Hannan MEP which confirms a lot of what Iani has correctly said :

Say no to the scaremongers: Already the referendum doom merchants are lining up to insist Britain can't survive outside the EU. Twaddle, says leading MEP Daniel Hannan

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103249/Say-no-scaremongers-referendum-doom-merchants-lining-insist-Britain-t-survive-outside-EU-Twaddle-says-leading-MEP-Daniel-Hannan.html#ixzz3beaLU0R9

[KeithD]

Well, if Cameron gets any concessions, it'll be more than what Labour would have got. He's still a stuck up plonker though :biggrin:

[Trefor]

I can never understand this issue 'people' have with 'posh' people. They didn't choose where they went to school, their parents did. Depending on your perspective they were either lucky or unlucky in early life.

I was born in S London and dragged up in Scunthorpe (the only town with *unt in it's name), yet I have no issue with 'posh people'. Once you travel the world a bit you realise we are all the same inside. Take people for what they have made of themselves.

Just saying...

[les_taxi]

My reasoning on him being a fraud are

He is painting himself as wanting big concessions from the rest of the EU. He isn't asking much. He wants to limit benefits paid to migrants, which could be resolved by internal laws anyway. He wants protection for the financial markets, again there isn't really the threat, nothing an internal law and being better than the competition wouldn't solve. He wants to limit migration from new member states until their economy was more on a par with the rest of the existing EU........well this is likely to happen anyway as many other states were stung last time, and besides who will be next to join? Nobody is on course for this for many years. Turkey won't join as too many other states are against this.

He will demand these, the other states will in private breath a huge sigh of relief that it's all he wants, he will come back here and run a referendum stating he has these massive concessions when he's got nothing of the sort, and he's "fixed" the referendum by making sure the postive "yes" vote will be to stay in............exactly what he wants.

To put it another way, he saw a threat from UKIP. He saw his power base being chipped away, so he's pretended to be anti-EU to head off a UKIP threat. He knows damned well there will be no vote to come out, he will make sure of that.

He COULD on the other hand have demanded associate membership, similar to Norways but a bit closer, other states would have agreed to this rather than totally lose the UK (And their massive massive contributions/market for their goods), but this isn't what he wants. He's only having this referendum, which he will make damned sure goes his way, because voters dared to potentially vote against his re-election.

The biggest proof is that the "yes" option will be for the status quo, very different to convention on such matters. The other proof - his "demands" are very minor changes indeed. I'd be more impressed if he demanded an opt-out from free movement

Well you have researched it well fair enough, but my main complaint about the title of the thread still stands. The title indicates he is not following his pre-election promises - he is as he promised an in out option and no matter what you say that's what we will get. That is my argument :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[les_taxi]

I can never understand this issue 'people' have with 'posh' people. They didn't choose where they went to school, their parents did. Depending on your perspective they were either lucky or unlucky in early life.

I was born in S London and dragged up in Scunthorpe (the only town with *unt in it's name), yet I have no issue with 'posh people'. Once you travel the world a bit you realise we are all the same inside. Take people for what they have made of themselves.

Just saying...

I agree so many people jealous of what richer people have! Not me at all, I'm quite happy being a hard worker and having occasional treats. That's how it is for most of us. Gives you something to aim for and as I have said no-one owes you a living - make your own way in life. I don't see many of us giving all we have to some homeless person, we just carry on as normal. Now if someone on the Forum who complains about the rich gives away his big tv, mobile and car away you will impress me, but you won't. :biggrin:

[Ako Si Jamie]

I can never understand this issue 'people' have with 'posh' people. They didn't choose where they went to school, their parents did. Depending on your perspective they were either lucky or unlucky in early life.

I was born in S London and dragged up in Scunthorpe (the only town with *unt in it's name), yet I have no issue with 'posh people'. Once you travel the world a bit you realise we are all the same inside. Take people for what they have made of themselves.

Just saying...Not posh people as such but snobs. This is because they look down their noses at others and have a similar mentality to that of a white supremacist or those radical religious freaks - they think they're so superior :anerikke:

Most people wouldn't have a problem with those who speak posh so long as they came across as likeable. Princess Di, and Prince William and his missus are fine examples.

[London_Manila]

At the end of the day you will have a choice in or out basically - how can he be a fraud :Erm:
It will be up to the public.
Like the general Election - they got that right and deserted Labour :biggrin:

As long as both the yes and no campaigns receive the same amount of money for their advertising leading up to the vote

[London_Manila]

I can never understand this issue 'people' have with 'posh' people. They didn't choose where they went to school, their parents did. Depending on your perspective they were either lucky or unlucky in early life.

I was born in S London and dragged up in Scunthorpe (the only town with *unt in it's name), yet I have no issue with 'posh people'. Once you travel the world a bit you realise we are all the same inside. Take people for what they have made of themselves.

Just saying...

Of course i agree my problem is when the Tory Party is full of posh privileged people and then masquerades itself as a party for working people :NoNo:

[London_Manila]

Well you have researched it well fair enough, but my main complaint about the title of the thread still stands. The title indicates he is not following his pre-election promises - he is as he promised an in out option and no matter what you say that's what we will get. That is my argument :xxgrinning--00xx3:

Of course Less but what about the other promise he made about withdrawing the Uk from the European Human rights agreement ?

[London_Manila]

I agree so many people jealous of what richer people have! Not me at all, I'm quite happy being a hard worker and having occasional treats. That's how it is for most of us. Gives you something to aim for and as I have said no-one owes you a living - make your own way in life. I don't see many of us giving all we have to some homeless person, we just carry on as normal. Now if someone on the Forum who complains about the rich gives away his big tv, mobile and car away you will impress me, but you won't. :biggrin:

Sorry Les i feel you might be driving your Taxi for many millions of miles before you reach the wealth of the likes of Cameron and Johnson :wink:

[London_Manila]

Well, if Cameron gets any concessions, it'll be more than what Labour would have got. He's still a stuck up plonker though :biggrin:

We need to regain control over our borders again and Cameron has already been told thats not even up for discussion. Delaying benefits payments to the European migrants is not going to stem the tide.

[Michael Parnham]

I agree so many people jealous of what richer people have! Not me at all, I'm quite happy being a hard worker and having occasional treats. That's how it is for most of us. Gives you something to aim for and as I have said no-one owes you a living - make your own way in life. I don't see many of us giving all we have to some homeless person, we just carry on as normal. Now if someone on the Forum who complains about the rich gives away his big tv, mobile and car away you will impress me, but you won't. :biggrin:

The more affluent you are the bigger your bills, lots of people with money have more worries in life also, but they never talk about their debts and other problems in life!:Erm:

[KeithD]

Delaying benefits payments to the European migrants is not going to stem the tide.

That's the reason all the illegal migrants give for wanting to access the UK, while passing through many other EU countries they could remain in. Stop the 'free' money, and the incentive goes away.

[Ako Si Jamie]

The more affluent you are the bigger your bills, lots of people with money have more worries in life also, but they never talk about their debts and other problems in life!:Erm:If they stopped competing in a race that never ends and learnt to appreciate what they have, maybe they'd be a lot happier. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[Dedworth]

Of course i agree my problem is when the Tory Party is full of posh privileged people and then masquerades itself as a party for working people :NoNo:

Were the likes of Major, Thatcher and Tebbit born with silver spoons in their mouths?

[Ako Si Jamie]

https://creativesystemsthinking.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/pyramid-scheme.jpg

[Trefor]

That's the reason all the illegal migrants give for wanting to access the UK, while passing through many other EU countries they could remain in. Stop the 'free' money, and the incentive goes away.

Not completely true. The UK has been a multi-cultural society for hundreds of years, possibly a bit too multi-cultural now but that's another discussion. Immigrants are accepted into society in the UK, much less so in France or Germany. Just look at the social/racial divide in France. Benefits help, but the language, social/racism and other issues play a bigger factor IMHO.

[Trefor]

Of course Less but what about the other promise he made about withdrawing the Uk from the European Human rights agreement ?

Yes, I do want this to happen. See my earlier post about the UK Bill of Rights. Trouble is the SNP MPs and the House of Lords will veto Cameron's efforts. What to do? Work in the background and try to remove their objections (apart from the SNP who I'm afraid seem to be a completely self-serving bunch of ar5es so far, but I'd love to be proved wrong).

[London_Manila]

Were the likes of Major, Thatcher and Tebbit born with silver spoons in their mouths?

There will always be a few exceptions :wink: