Atheist

[Piamed]

Thanks Piamed, your post is probably the most informative and balanced in this whole thread.

Thank you so much Rob. I always try my best to temper what I say with love and to offer my thoughts in a constructive way. That you think I am part way to achieving that means a lot to me.

Hi Piamed.
I personally don't go around telling everybody I am an atheist, but I find it so obnoxious that religious bods feel they have to tell everybody about their beliefs. They actually SHOUT in the streets . What a bore and what a liberty, and if anyone asks them why they do this, they shout even louder
I also do not ask for money from people because I am an atheist.

I realise that people in the Philippines are "god-fearing" and if that is their belief then good luck to them, as long as they go about their business in a quiet dignified manner.

But you see, religion does strange things to people and they feel it their right to try to convert others.

As you know, the "RC" or "C of E" religions are fading away as every week goes by.

People just don't care about them anymore in the way they did in days of old.

I don't know why religious people feel they cannot live with non-believers.
That is bigotry and intolerance.

If we all observe our history we will notice that Europe was subjugated and spent hundreds of years by religious zealots who killed people because they did not want to believe.

That is one of the main reasons that people in Europe fled in their droves to the "New World".

I understand that people, like my father, strongly believes in the church.
That is fine by me, as long as it is not rammed down my throat.

I will continue to ignore the church as many millions now do here in the UK. However, if a poster here or anywhere asks how people can live together with differing beliefs, then the answer is clear for all to see. Don't rock my boat and I will not rock yours.

God does not exist and no amount of brow-beating, shouting or persuasive language will convince me otherwise.

I understand how you feel about people approaching you to share their faith. Remember, that those that attempt to share their faith with you are only doing so as they think it a loving act to share something that they personally benefit from with others. When I myelf share my beliefs with an individual, I try to be sensitive to who I am sharing with and tailor what I say accordingly. But then, I have to do that every day in my working life.

If the approach of some is less sensitive, then perhaps it is just that they are passionate in their quest to help others or just clumsy in their interpersonal skills. In either event, a polite statement of disinterest should see them off with neither party the worse for wear.

People do not try to raise money because they are Christians; they attempt to raise money to futher a charitable cause that they believe in, so on that basis I understand that you would of course, have no need to canvass for money in the same way.

I'm not a religious person but I do have a faith and have absolutely no problem engaging with non-believers. Just as not all non-believers are the same, the same is also true of believers.

You are right that millions are moving away from the more traditional churches pre-modernist practices and perspectives. However, the post-modern churches are growing at a faster rate than at any other time historically.

I accept that your belief is that God does not exist and respect your view as you have your own personal reasons underpinning it.

[Gavanddal]

I love being an atheist. I live in the real world. I've never been shown one scrap of evidence that there's a "god". I have seen plenty of poor religious folk who believe that it's gods will that they are that way.
My wife was brought up Baptist but has happily married an Atheist and only been to church about once since being in the UK. She certainly lives a better life in my godless world than she did before.
I tolerate religious people, I don't "respect" their beliefs because I think it's bunkum but all the same I don't have the disrespect or hatred that other religions may have for them. I'm against division and nothing is more divisive than religion.
As has already been said, many religions keep poor ignorant people in their place and grew rich from it.
I've just done a job in a church and happily took their money. I heard them admitting that the church of England would be dead within 50 years. That long?

[scott&ligaya]

just my observations first.... remember the same posters commentary on WHY the Philipiinnes is poor.... here were my comments at the time

The Pope could reduce poverty, enrich family lives and strenghthen poor countries overnight just by saying three words CONDOMS ARE OK!!!! ..... but then children might get educated and become more self reliant and begin to question some of the other teachings and where would the catholic church and more importantly the wealthy and powerful bishops be then?

My problem is not so much with religion or faith as I was brought up through the Church of Scotland where ny father was a deacon and elder but importantly you join at 18 by taking new communicants classes. there was no pressure even from my father to join.

My wife is JIL and loves going to her church in Palawan, in Hong Kong (packed out 400 at each of three services and what an atmosphere) and has found a filipino christian fellowship here in Bham. I go along and enjoy the services as they are bright, full of feel good factor and not at all like dour Church of Scotland services. I cannot quite get into all of the exhortations some make but all in all it is good to be there and I genuinely can see that the congregation get something from the experience. I prefer to keep my own counsel, and believe that faith is a personal journey and down to the individual. I totally agree with the view that children should not be brainwashed and forced to confession at six... how ridiculous is that!!!!.

You can see when you visit the Phils that the only growth industry is churches, have you seen an iglesia ni christo church!!!? talk about money! they are all there peddling their "brand" and grabbing the poor dumb filipinos money (some up to 30% of their meagre earnings). They sell hope and a better afterlife when they should be helping the poor filipino to improve his/her lot, get educated and self reliant but that would be self defeating for them.

I do get angry when I see jehovas witnesses, 7th day adventists, mormons and others all queuing up to steal the minds of people who for too long have been let down by their leaders.

Sorry if this seems like a rant but it does irratate me to see this going on.

Another poster summed it up well when they said religion needs faith but faith does not religion and also spoke of organised repression. People should take personal responsibility for how they live out their lives. Good morals, deceny and natural justice are not confined to the bible,Koran or other religous teachings.



and

[Piamed]

just my observations first.... remember the same posters commentary on WHY the Philipiinnes is poor.... here were my comments at the time

The Pope could reduce poverty, enrich family lives and strenghthen poor countries overnight just by saying three words CONDOMS ARE OK!!!! ..... but then children might get educated and become more self reliant and begin to question some of the other teachings and where would the catholic church and more importantly the wealthy and powerful bishops be then?

My problem is not so much with religion or faith as I was brought up through the Church of Scotland where ny father was a deacon and elder but importantly you join at 18 by taking new communicants classes. there was no pressure even from my father to join.

My wife is JIL and loves going to her church in Palawan, in Hong Kong (packed out 400 at each of three services and what an atmosphere) and has found a filipino christian fellowship here in Bham. I go along and enjoy the services as they are bright, full of feel good factor and not at all like dour Church of Scotland services. I cannot quite get into all of the exhortations some make but all in all it is good to be there and I genuinely can see that the congregation get something from the experience. I prefer to keep my own counsel, and believe that faith is a personal journey and down to the individual. I totally agree with the view that children should not be brainwashed and forced to confession at six... how ridiculous is that!!!!.

You can see when you visit the Phils that the only growth industry is churches, have you seen an iglesia ni christo church!!!? talk about money! they are all there peddling their "brand" and grabbing the poor dumb filipinos money (some up to 30% of their meagre earnings). They sell hope and a better afterlife when they should be helping the poor filipino to improve his/her lot, get educated and self reliant but that would be self defeating for them.

I do get angry when I see jehovas witnesses, 7th day adventists, mormons and others all queuing up to steal the minds of people who for too long have been let down by their leaders.

Sorry if this seems like a rant but it does irratate me to see this going on.

Another poster summed it up well when they said religion needs faith but faith does not religion and also spoke of organised repression. People should take personal responsibility for how they live out their lives. Good morals, deceny and natural justice are not confined to the bible,Koran or other religous teachings.



and

I think your post uncovers some interesting and insightful points. Namely, as I mentioned in my earlier post, that given a church is a body of people and as such is a sum of the individuals within it. What i mean by that is that all churches are different. Even within the one denomination.

The classic Catholic church is very different to a Pentecostal one for example. I have attended many churches. The one I favour now but can only attend on occasion is in London, whilst I am in Leeds. I love this church as the body of people there have all bought into the concepts of developing progressive families. Thus we focus on strengthening men to be choice men, empowering women and developing children.

Our services are not about repetititious and incomprehendible rituals as some might think. All services are practically based and related to real family issues.

We tackle wife abuse, men showing love to their children and other issues that society is concerned with but few address. We dont talk about others we talk about tyhe church memmbers to make sure that we are the best we can be so that by doing so we can influence others positively by our conduct. We are imperfect but we aspire to progressive improvement.

I have invited some of my non-believing friends to my church and what they found was a group of very intelligent, successful and socially concious individuals who are not afraid to to dicuss and tackle the isssues that matter most. Their attendance was not about trying to indoctrinate and thus, they come whenever they feel like it bevcause they want to.

We sponsor local activities for the locals in neighbourhood (Kilburn). We have a day once a month when we go to the homes of the local elderly and do their shopping, tidy their gardens, etc. We also have a community barbecue once a year when up to 600 hundred attend. The men in the church pay for it our of their own pockets. There are so many other initiatives we undertake each year.

As far as I can determine there is no harm that we generate and consider it inappropriate to class all bodies of faith oriented individuals as being the same. Individuals are at fault and not faith per se.

My final point is that as has been said, faith is a personal thing. This I do not believe in Christening babies as it requires that a baby has a relationship with God which is not possible at that age. A baby dedication is an entirely different thing I believe.

[scott&ligaya]

WOW, just read my own reply, I did not realise how much the subject aggravated me. Time to chill, go home early and play with our baby, he has no view on this matter....

[walesrob]

Thanks Piamed, your post is probably the most informative and balanced in this whole thread.

[Scouse]

You don't have to be religious to ask for money for charitable causes. My friends and I raise money for a school in the Philippines, but we provide entertainment for those that give via quiz nights etc.

I have been involved in the past with political groups who don't just ask for money but give time to help others/highlight problems that less fortunate people have.

You don't need religion to have passion and morals. Most of the morals we live by pre-date any of the modern religions, eg not killing others, having one partner etc.

If anyone can prove that their god exists then I will change my life. Until then I will challenge the existence of a so called greater being.

[KeithD]

You will no doubt agree that evidence is comprised of items, observable or otherwise

Observable only, otherwise it is not evidence!

No one has any evidence of the existence of a God, ghost, etc, but the evidence of evolution is now so overwhelming, that is why the church now accepts it, no questions asked. It has been proven way beyond any reasonable doubt, and every creationist argument has been blown away.......I still say it was the butler who done it.... in the library though

[Piamed]

You don't have to be religious to ask for money for charitable causes. My friends and I raise money for a school in the Philippines, but we provide entertainment for those that give via quiz nights etc.

I have been involved in the past with political groups who don't just ask for money but give time to help others/highlight problems that less fortunate people have.

You don't need religion to have passion and morals. Most of the morals we live by pre-date any of the modern religions, eg not killing others, having one partner etc.

If anyone can prove that their god exists then I will change my life. Until then I will challenge the existence of a so called greater being.

I di not mean to suggest that religious people have high morals and i ndeed avoided the word religious where possible. good and bad exist whether faith centered or not.

Observable only, otherwise it is not evidence!

hmmn! That is so not true but i think you might be kidding. Also it depends on what you mean by observable.

No one has any evidence of the existence of a God ... but the evidence of evolution is now so overwhelming, that is why the church now accepts it, no questions asked. It has been proven way beyond any reasonable doubt, and every creationist argument has been blown away.......

That is falsifiable. The Church? It would take so long to really lay the foundation for a challenge to these points and i have hogged enough of this thead unless someone wants me to address this privately.

Anyway its been excellent discussing on this thread in a mutually respectful way.

[KeithD]

How can you have evidence that has never been observed?

[Piamed]

I don't have any paradigms, I have an open mind. It's insulting to suggest that evidence is interpreted by one's personal viewpoint. Are you suggesting that only the chosen ones can see the truth and the rest of us only see what we want to see?



I didn't say that she said that. She wants for nothing now and I know she is happy.

My views are that I make up my own mind based on evidence and don't submit to enforced ideologies

Please be assured that I dont mean or intend to insult anyone. At the very least anyone who has a set of values, beliefs or a perspective has a paradigm. Afterall, thats what a paradigm is. Paradigms and the willingness to embrace new thoughts are not mutually excusive. Paradigms can change but it is not 'normally' possible to exist without one at any given moment in time, although the paradigms will vary according to the prevailing context. Having an open mind refers to ones ability and preparedness to alter ones paradigm based on a particular context. To have no paradigm at any point in time, one would have to have no experience, no perspectives or feeling about a given topic/context. Is that truly possible? I personally dont think so.

That evidence is interpreted according to ones viewpoint or in other words bias is the reason that clinical trials are blinded, i.e. because of researcher interference. Remember, evidence is often subjective. If a glass is filled to 50% of its capacity, is the glass full or is it empty. Surely, the answer is it depends, based upon how one sees things.

I'm not sure what these chosen ones are that you referred to in your post but suggest as do most of the extant literature on this subject, that all people see things according to their paradigms.

Example: If you had 2 individuals with 'open minds' walk around a corner and 1 received a pleasant experience and the other one not so pleasant, would you expect them to go around the same corner again later on without having an perspective on what would be likely to occur to them?

Ones paradigm determines what we see and how we see it.

How can you have evidence that has never been observed?

Evidence and knowledge can be acquired/perceived in many ways. Essentially, if one is a positivist, which many scientists are, they will invariably see things based upon direct observation.

Rationalists will derive their evidence based upon concepts.

Constructionists base their view of evidence on social perceptions and interpretations.

Of course these are gross generalisations.

The bottom line is that not all things that we believe to be true are based upon direct use of our senses.

[KeithD]

The bottom line is that not all things that we believe to be true are based upon direct use of our senses.

[Piamed]

Hi USA, interesting point you make, however just because someone has a right to a viewpoint (see comment by famous French philospher earlier) does not mean that it should be tolerated or accepted by the society it is expressed in, for example holocaust deniers or anti war protesters turning up at US soldiers funerals. Some views/actions SHOULD NOT EVER be tolerated. People who hold socially unacceptable views can be and generally are shunned. The problem with this is that they then congregrate together, form communitys - white supremacists and become more extreme.

off topic I know but just wanted to respond to your point

Excellent points!

Which of your senses have provided you with evidence there is no God?

[Gavanddal]

Which of your senses have provided you with evidence there is no God?

If I've seen absolutely no evidence of something for 47 years then why would I believe it? I've no evidence that there's no fairies at the bottom of the garden apart from the fact that absolutely no-one has ever seen them.

Belief in god primarily derives from peoples inability to explain their origin or the world around them. It's an easy cop-out to attribute it to a mystical higher being. There's plenty of religious people who deny evolution despite the hard evidence. So it's more believable that someone made everything in 6 days, put two people on the earth who then had two sons whose wives mysteriously appeared from nowhere as there's no explanation of that? Someone started a great con trick with that nonsense.

[andypaul]

Good evening and welcome

Had a bizare day involving a bottle of chicken tika sauce westminster city hall, the mi5 building and the house of lords. So will write randomly like my Brain is

Richard dawkins programe the other week was good. I think it showed up Organised religion for what it is, a bunch of people looking for power, prvillige or some gain in some way.

Does not mean i dont belive there are greater forces that we dont understand. Science just like religion does not have all the answers. Still a lot of things science cant explain it seems from experience.

I think there is some thing up there most likely a lab technician looking at a test tube. I just hope its shatter proof.

More power to whatever you do or dont belive in but remeber to always keep an open mind

Rousseau, the French philosopher and champion of liberty was hunted and pursued from one place to another because of his opinions. When Voltaire, another philosopher and writer heard of it, he invited Rousseau to come and live in his house. When Rousseau finally arrived, Voltaire said, "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

If you cant marry some one with different beliefs to you then what else would get in the way? Opposites attract in many cases surely?

Peace love and hapiness and thank god/lab technician the MI5 security left my Chicken tikka sauce alone

Laters earth beings i have a Curry to eat

[Scouse]

Not been on line for a couple of days but this really struck me

Many of the worlds brightest positivist observers attest to God existing based on historical truths.

Historical truth? Where is this published/held? Nobody has ever pointed me at it.

Additionally, many millions of people around the globe have evidence by faith.....

Faith is not evidence, it is simply accepting what you are told and not being prepared to question it. In my opinion the word gullibility should replace faith.

As Voltaire said “If there were no God, it would have been necessary to invent him.”

As Mikhail Bakunin said "A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished."

[joebloggs]

rob, like most brits, i treated people, the way i would like to be treated, nice to all, even if i don't like them, manners cost nothing

it's a bit one side because most who have replied are atheists, i asked a few questions but no one replied

why a 6yr old is asked to go to confession, and what beliefs does peterb or others have, who said that, they would only marry someone who had similar ones ?

[Gavanddal]

why a 6yr old is asked to go to confession?

To get them in a box with a pervy priest as usual I guess.

[KeithD]

Faith is not evidence, it is simply accepting what you are told and not being prepared to question it. In my opinion the word gullibility should replace faith......

See how us scousers work together without knowing it....

Rob, your local church is full as someone told them it was free wine

[aposhark]

Rob, your local church is full as someone told them it was free wine

Free Wine AND Strippers in Aberystwyth?

[Scouse]

like most brits, i treated people, the way i would like to be treated, nice to all, even if i don't like them, manners cost nothing

Couldn't agree more. There is too much selfishness about.

[walesrob]

...and on that note, maybe we should lock this thread as its starting to tread water. At the end of the day, we all have different opinions on this subject, but its good that we managed to have a discussion without resorting to extreme language or personal insults.

[KeithD]

...but its good that we managed to have a discussion without resorting to extreme language or personal insults.

I save that kind of things for the Mancs .........Remember last Saturday......The POOL WON

[kimmi]

...and on that note, maybe we should lock this thread as its starting to tread water. At the end of the day, we all have different opinions on this subject, but its good that we managed to have a discussion without resorting to extreme language or personal insults.

I second the motion..

[Scouse]

Remember last Saturday......The POOL WON

It's about time we did

[joebloggs]

celebrate while you can scouser Keith, it will be another 20yrs b4 you beat united again

as for

How can a Christian and Atheist live together happily?

Most of my Brits colleagues are very open being Atheist. Well, as they said its not end of the world...yet let see

lets see, don't hold your breath, known the misses more than 8yrs, married near 6yrs, and not a problem yet

[PAT]

This is a never ending issue...every one has a reason so be it. Atheist or not doesn't matter, love conquers all.

[andypaul]

This is a never ending issue...every one has a reason so be it. Atheist or not doesn't matter, love conquers all.

Well put.

I think as long as people are cvill these issues need to be dicussed, sometimes friends tell one anohter things they dont like to hear and they agreee to disagree. But when different groups dont talk and dicuss views, beliefs and why they do things you get igorance.

I was lucky as a young guy growing up i had friends from so many countries with various religous beliefs and view points. When younger i met very few people from different backrounds i lived back in the middle of white surbia. I really didn't know much about others cultures and beliefs.
Like a lot of phills i meet are untill they leave phill.

I used to ask as many questions as i could and with that i understood why people do certain things which seem odd to me. Many peole dont understand ramadan and how followers of islam follow it, now i think its only polite to understand enough if your a manager or workmate in partaking in ramadan. But belive it or not i have met people from various backgrounds who dont understand it at all. With there igorance they somehow manage to offended by continually offer them food saying a bit wont harm.
Just like on here many would be offended if some one tempted them during lent. You dont need to read either the bible or koran or belive in them to understand why people wish to do these things. As long as it does not harm others, who cares?

Many people who dont understand a group of people will either fear them, hate them or at least not know them as they are "different".

Cheesewhiz many partnerships and couples wheter friends, work mates, or husband and wifes seem to thive on the differences just as much as what they hold in common.

Many of the couples on here if you discount religion. Have very little on paper in common.

Race, mother tongue, foods, intrests, outlook on life, education (although the wife and I are both well educated in our respective countries it has formed to very different people imo)

If you swapped say religion for country grown up in then many on here would be going loopy and quite rightly.

I have seen many examples where to very intelligent and loving and caring of all peoples want only to be married to those similar to themselves, which is just as the same as all people who look for people with certain looks and type of charcters etc. Fair do's
But i also know a lot of mates who always loved certain charcters and looks of girls and married a very different type of lady in the end never say never
But if you stoped say your children from marrying someone of a different group then i think that would be wrong. If everything about the potential in law was ok and they compliment your child then why not?

Peace love and enjoy the sunshine But keep asking one another questions and politely debating things because they day we dont, we all will live a far worse world than the one we have at the present.

[Piamed]

celebrate while you can scouser Keith, it will be another 20yrs b4 you beat united again

as for

How can a Christian and Atheist live together happily?

Most of my Brits colleagues are very open being Atheist. Well, as they said its not end of the world...yet let see

lets see, don't hold your breath, known the misses more than 8yrs, married near 6yrs, and not a problem yet

I've not met your wife but based upon your posts you are clearly an intelligent, socially conscious, respectful, caring and supportive husband. It is no surprise to me that you have no problems.

[joebloggs]

I've not met your wife but based upon your posts you are clearly an intelligent, socially conscious, respectful, caring and supportive husband. It is no surprise to me that you have no problems.

me intelligent , the misses maybe thou

we had our problems early on, got them out of the way, so what ever happens in the future could never be bad as the past.