Atheist

[scott&ligaya]

WOW, just read my own reply, I did not realise how much the subject aggravated me. Time to chill, go home early and play with our baby, he has no view on this matter....

[Piamed]

just my observations first.... remember the same posters commentary on WHY the Philipiinnes is poor.... here were my comments at the time

The Pope could reduce poverty, enrich family lives and strenghthen poor countries overnight just by saying three words CONDOMS ARE OK!!!! ..... but then children might get educated and become more self reliant and begin to question some of the other teachings and where would the catholic church and more importantly the wealthy and powerful bishops be then?

My problem is not so much with religion or faith as I was brought up through the Church of Scotland where ny father was a deacon and elder but importantly you join at 18 by taking new communicants classes. there was no pressure even from my father to join.

My wife is JIL and loves going to her church in Palawan, in Hong Kong (packed out 400 at each of three services and what an atmosphere) and has found a filipino christian fellowship here in Bham. I go along and enjoy the services as they are bright, full of feel good factor and not at all like dour Church of Scotland services. I cannot quite get into all of the exhortations some make but all in all it is good to be there and I genuinely can see that the congregation get something from the experience. I prefer to keep my own counsel, and believe that faith is a personal journey and down to the individual. I totally agree with the view that children should not be brainwashed and forced to confession at six... how ridiculous is that!!!!.

You can see when you visit the Phils that the only growth industry is churches, have you seen an iglesia ni christo church!!!? talk about money! they are all there peddling their "brand" and grabbing the poor dumb filipinos money (some up to 30% of their meagre earnings). They sell hope and a better afterlife when they should be helping the poor filipino to improve his/her lot, get educated and self reliant but that would be self defeating for them.

I do get angry when I see jehovas witnesses, 7th day adventists, mormons and others all queuing up to steal the minds of people who for too long have been let down by their leaders.

Sorry if this seems like a rant but it does irratate me to see this going on.

Another poster summed it up well when they said religion needs faith but faith does not religion and also spoke of organised repression. People should take personal responsibility for how they live out their lives. Good morals, deceny and natural justice are not confined to the bible,Koran or other religous teachings.



and

I think your post uncovers some interesting and insightful points. Namely, as I mentioned in my earlier post, that given a church is a body of people and as such is a sum of the individuals within it. What i mean by that is that all churches are different. Even within the one denomination.

The classic Catholic church is very different to a Pentecostal one for example. I have attended many churches. The one I favour now but can only attend on occasion is in London, whilst I am in Leeds. I love this church as the body of people there have all bought into the concepts of developing progressive families. Thus we focus on strengthening men to be choice men, empowering women and developing children.

Our services are not about repetititious and incomprehendible rituals as some might think. All services are practically based and related to real family issues.

We tackle wife abuse, men showing love to their children and other issues that society is concerned with but few address. We dont talk about others we talk about tyhe church memmbers to make sure that we are the best we can be so that by doing so we can influence others positively by our conduct. We are imperfect but we aspire to progressive improvement.

I have invited some of my non-believing friends to my church and what they found was a group of very intelligent, successful and socially concious individuals who are not afraid to to dicuss and tackle the isssues that matter most. Their attendance was not about trying to indoctrinate and thus, they come whenever they feel like it bevcause they want to.

We sponsor local activities for the locals in neighbourhood (Kilburn). We have a day once a month when we go to the homes of the local elderly and do their shopping, tidy their gardens, etc. We also have a community barbecue once a year when up to 600 hundred attend. The men in the church pay for it our of their own pockets. There are so many other initiatives we undertake each year.

As far as I can determine there is no harm that we generate and consider it inappropriate to class all bodies of faith oriented individuals as being the same. Individuals are at fault and not faith per se.

My final point is that as has been said, faith is a personal thing. This I do not believe in Christening babies as it requires that a baby has a relationship with God which is not possible at that age. A baby dedication is an entirely different thing I believe.

[walesrob]

Thanks Piamed, your post is probably the most informative and balanced in this whole thread.

[aposhark]

Hi Aposhark. I'm assuming that you are speaking in some semblance of a metaphor. People are always campaiging for their faith and/or money on the transport systems. I find that travellers are either receptive or at worst, just ignore them. People in the UK are mostly socially tolerant. Often to the extreme.

Hi Piamed.
My thoughts were not connected to a metaphor.
I just think that people in the UK would not tolerate religious people spouting off and asking for money afterwards.

The whole point for me is respect for people and tolerance for peoples' beliefs or lack of beliefs.
I personally don't go around telling everybody I am an atheist, but I find it so obnoxious that religious bods feel they have to tell everybody about their beliefs. They actually SHOUT in the streets . What a bore and what a liberty, and if anyone asks them why they do this, they shout even louder
I also do not ask for money from people because I am an atheist.

I realise that people in the Philippines are "god-fearing" and if that is their belief then good luck to them, as long as they go about their business in a quiet dignified manner.

But you see, religion does strange things to people and they feel it their right to try to convert others.

As you know, the "RC" or "C of E" religions are fading away as every week goes by.

People just don't care about them anymore in the way they did in days of old.

I don't know why religious people feel they cannot live with non-believers.
That is bigotry and intolerance.

If we all observe our history we will notice that Europe was subjugated and spent hundreds of years by religious zealots who killed people because they did not want to believe.

That is one of the main reasons that people in Europe fled in their droves to the "New World".

I understand that people, like my father, strongly believes in the church.
That is fine by me, as long as it is not rammed down my throat.

I will continue to ignore the church as many millions now do here in the UK. However, if a poster here or anywhere asks how people can live together with differing beliefs, then the answer is clear for all to see. Don't rock my boat and I will not rock yours.

God does not exist and no amount of brow-beating, shouting or persuasive language will convince me otherwise.

[Piamed]

Thanks Piamed, your post is probably the most informative and balanced in this whole thread.

Thank you so much Rob. I always try my best to temper what I say with love and to offer my thoughts in a constructive way. That you think I am part way to achieving that means a lot to me.

Hi Piamed.
I personally don't go around telling everybody I am an atheist, but I find it so obnoxious that religious bods feel they have to tell everybody about their beliefs. They actually SHOUT in the streets . What a bore and what a liberty, and if anyone asks them why they do this, they shout even louder
I also do not ask for money from people because I am an atheist.

I realise that people in the Philippines are "god-fearing" and if that is their belief then good luck to them, as long as they go about their business in a quiet dignified manner.

But you see, religion does strange things to people and they feel it their right to try to convert others.

As you know, the "RC" or "C of E" religions are fading away as every week goes by.

People just don't care about them anymore in the way they did in days of old.

I don't know why religious people feel they cannot live with non-believers.
That is bigotry and intolerance.

If we all observe our history we will notice that Europe was subjugated and spent hundreds of years by religious zealots who killed people because they did not want to believe.

That is one of the main reasons that people in Europe fled in their droves to the "New World".

I understand that people, like my father, strongly believes in the church.
That is fine by me, as long as it is not rammed down my throat.

I will continue to ignore the church as many millions now do here in the UK. However, if a poster here or anywhere asks how people can live together with differing beliefs, then the answer is clear for all to see. Don't rock my boat and I will not rock yours.

God does not exist and no amount of brow-beating, shouting or persuasive language will convince me otherwise.

I understand how you feel about people approaching you to share their faith. Remember, that those that attempt to share their faith with you are only doing so as they think it a loving act to share something that they personally benefit from with others. When I myelf share my beliefs with an individual, I try to be sensitive to who I am sharing with and tailor what I say accordingly. But then, I have to do that every day in my working life.

If the approach of some is less sensitive, then perhaps it is just that they are passionate in their quest to help others or just clumsy in their interpersonal skills. In either event, a polite statement of disinterest should see them off with neither party the worse for wear.

People do not try to raise money because they are Christians; they attempt to raise money to futher a charitable cause that they believe in, so on that basis I understand that you would of course, have no need to canvass for money in the same way.

I'm not a religious person but I do have a faith and have absolutely no problem engaging with non-believers. Just as not all non-believers are the same, the same is also true of believers.

You are right that millions are moving away from the more traditional churches pre-modernist practices and perspectives. However, the post-modern churches are growing at a faster rate than at any other time historically.

I accept that your belief is that God does not exist and respect your view as you have your own personal reasons underpinning it.

[Gavanddal]

I love being an atheist. I live in the real world. I've never been shown one scrap of evidence that there's a "god". I have seen plenty of poor religious folk who believe that it's gods will that they are that way.
My wife was brought up Baptist but has happily married an Atheist and only been to church about once since being in the UK. She certainly lives a better life in my godless world than she did before.
I tolerate religious people, I don't "respect" their beliefs because I think it's bunkum but all the same I don't have the disrespect or hatred that other religions may have for them. I'm against division and nothing is more divisive than religion.
As has already been said, many religions keep poor ignorant people in their place and grew rich from it.
I've just done a job in a church and happily took their money. I heard them admitting that the church of England would be dead within 50 years. That long?

[Scouse]

You don't have to be religious to ask for money for charitable causes. My friends and I raise money for a school in the Philippines, but we provide entertainment for those that give via quiz nights etc.

I have been involved in the past with political groups who don't just ask for money but give time to help others/highlight problems that less fortunate people have.

You don't need religion to have passion and morals. Most of the morals we live by pre-date any of the modern religions, eg not killing others, having one partner etc.

If anyone can prove that their god exists then I will change my life. Until then I will challenge the existence of a so called greater being.

[Piamed]

I've never been shown one scrap of evidence that there's a "god".

You will no doubt agree that evidence is comprised of items, observable or otherwise, that can be used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. How one comprehends evidence is determined by ones epistemological and ontological paradigms.

Many of the worlds brightest positivist observers attest to God existing based on historical truths. Additionally, many millions of people around the globe have evidence by faith which is one of several ontological paradigms. Consequently, there is phenomenal evidence supporting God's existence but some cannot comprehend it because their paradigms are heterogeneous.

My wife was brought up Baptist but has happily married an Atheist and only been to church about once since being in the UK. She certainly lives a better life in my godless world than she did before.

That your wife has now told you she is happier and better off in a godless world leaves me speechless although I'm happy she is happy.

I tolerate religious people, I don't "respect" their beliefs because I think it's bunkum but all the same I don't have the disrespect or hatred that other religions may have for them.

I wanted to comment on this but am worried I may not quite understand what you are saying as it seems a tad contradictory to me.

I'm against division and nothing is more divisive than religion.

I think that what causes most division and problems in the world is lack of respect and tolerance for human heterogeneity. That you have a different view of my belief is interesting to me and I love to understand how views such as yours were developed, just as I love to understand how others who share my faith developed their views.

Unfortunately, my experience has been that some non-believers can get very rude and frustrated when asked to present their thoughts in a structured manner. I'm sure that is also sometimes true of believers, though they at least, should not be rude. I have had Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses become frustrated when I ask them to provide Scriptural support for some of their beliefs and practices.

Suffice to say that we are human and thus are all imperfect.

As usual these are just my thoughts.

[KeithD]

You will no doubt agree that evidence is comprised of items, observable or otherwise

Observable only, otherwise it is not evidence!

No one has any evidence of the existence of a God, ghost, etc, but the evidence of evolution is now so overwhelming, that is why the church now accepts it, no questions asked. It has been proven way beyond any reasonable doubt, and every creationist argument has been blown away.......I still say it was the butler who done it.... in the library though

[Piamed]

You don't have to be religious to ask for money for charitable causes. My friends and I raise money for a school in the Philippines, but we provide entertainment for those that give via quiz nights etc.

I have been involved in the past with political groups who don't just ask for money but give time to help others/highlight problems that less fortunate people have.

You don't need religion to have passion and morals. Most of the morals we live by pre-date any of the modern religions, eg not killing others, having one partner etc.

If anyone can prove that their god exists then I will change my life. Until then I will challenge the existence of a so called greater being.

I di not mean to suggest that religious people have high morals and i ndeed avoided the word religious where possible. good and bad exist whether faith centered or not.

Observable only, otherwise it is not evidence!

hmmn! That is so not true but i think you might be kidding. Also it depends on what you mean by observable.

No one has any evidence of the existence of a God ... but the evidence of evolution is now so overwhelming, that is why the church now accepts it, no questions asked. It has been proven way beyond any reasonable doubt, and every creationist argument has been blown away.......

That is falsifiable. The Church? It would take so long to really lay the foundation for a challenge to these points and i have hogged enough of this thead unless someone wants me to address this privately.

Anyway its been excellent discussing on this thread in a mutually respectful way.

[Gavanddal]

You will no doubt agree that evidence is comprised of items, observable or otherwise, that can be used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. How one comprehends evidence is determined by ones epistemological and ontological paradigms.

I don't have any paradigms, I have an open mind. It's insulting to suggest that evidence is interpreted by one's personal viewpoint. Are you suggesting that only the chosen ones can see the truth and the rest of us only see what we want to see?

That your wife has now told you she is happier and better off in a godless world leaves me speechless although I'm happy she is happy.

I didn't say that she said that. She wants for nothing now and I know she is happy.

I think that what causes most division and problems in the world is lack of respect and tolerance for human heterogeneity. That you have a different view of my belief is interesting to me and I love to understand how views such as yours were developed, just as I love to understand how others who share my faith developed their views.

My views are that I make up my own mind based on evidence and don't submit to enforced ideologies

[KeithD]

How can you have evidence that has never been observed?

[andypaul]

Good evening and welcome

Had a bizare day involving a bottle of chicken tika sauce westminster city hall, the mi5 building and the house of lords. So will write randomly like my Brain is

Richard dawkins programe the other week was good. I think it showed up Organised religion for what it is, a bunch of people looking for power, prvillige or some gain in some way.

Does not mean i dont belive there are greater forces that we dont understand. Science just like religion does not have all the answers. Still a lot of things science cant explain it seems from experience.

I think there is some thing up there most likely a lab technician looking at a test tube. I just hope its shatter proof.

More power to whatever you do or dont belive in but remeber to always keep an open mind

Rousseau, the French philosopher and champion of liberty was hunted and pursued from one place to another because of his opinions. When Voltaire, another philosopher and writer heard of it, he invited Rousseau to come and live in his house. When Rousseau finally arrived, Voltaire said, "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

If you cant marry some one with different beliefs to you then what else would get in the way? Opposites attract in many cases surely?

Peace love and hapiness and thank god/lab technician the MI5 security left my Chicken tikka sauce alone

Laters earth beings i have a Curry to eat

[Piamed]

I don't have any paradigms, I have an open mind. It's insulting to suggest that evidence is interpreted by one's personal viewpoint. Are you suggesting that only the chosen ones can see the truth and the rest of us only see what we want to see?



I didn't say that she said that. She wants for nothing now and I know she is happy.

My views are that I make up my own mind based on evidence and don't submit to enforced ideologies

Please be assured that I dont mean or intend to insult anyone. At the very least anyone who has a set of values, beliefs or a perspective has a paradigm. Afterall, thats what a paradigm is. Paradigms and the willingness to embrace new thoughts are not mutually excusive. Paradigms can change but it is not 'normally' possible to exist without one at any given moment in time, although the paradigms will vary according to the prevailing context. Having an open mind refers to ones ability and preparedness to alter ones paradigm based on a particular context. To have no paradigm at any point in time, one would have to have no experience, no perspectives or feeling about a given topic/context. Is that truly possible? I personally dont think so.

That evidence is interpreted according to ones viewpoint or in other words bias is the reason that clinical trials are blinded, i.e. because of researcher interference. Remember, evidence is often subjective. If a glass is filled to 50% of its capacity, is the glass full or is it empty. Surely, the answer is it depends, based upon how one sees things.

I'm not sure what these chosen ones are that you referred to in your post but suggest as do most of the extant literature on this subject, that all people see things according to their paradigms.

Example: If you had 2 individuals with 'open minds' walk around a corner and 1 received a pleasant experience and the other one not so pleasant, would you expect them to go around the same corner again later on without having an perspective on what would be likely to occur to them?

Ones paradigm determines what we see and how we see it.

How can you have evidence that has never been observed?

Evidence and knowledge can be acquired/perceived in many ways. Essentially, if one is a positivist, which many scientists are, they will invariably see things based upon direct observation.

Rationalists will derive their evidence based upon concepts.

Constructionists base their view of evidence on social perceptions and interpretations.

Of course these are gross generalisations.

The bottom line is that not all things that we believe to be true are based upon direct use of our senses.

[USA]

Hi cheesewiz
For me, it is all about respect.
As an atheist, I would never stop anyone from following their beliefs.
Likewise, I would expect them never to try to convince me that there is a God or that religion is important.
Intolerance is unacceptable from anyone.

How about intolerant people? Dont they have rights also?
I think you are being very intolerant of the empathicly challenged- or as you would so crudely put it "intolerent people"
People have the right to their own points of view. And if they wish to be narrow minded they shouldnt have to bother with you trying to make them feel "less than" or you trying to impose your will upon them by trying to shape the world to fit your idea of what "tolerence" is.
I really think you should maybe be banned from this forum or at least censored for a time until you can learn to be more tolerent.

[joebloggs]

I watched body shock on channel 4 the other night, it was about the girl with 2 faces , little Lali was widely worshipped as the incarnation of a Hindu god/goddess, but when she died, she was shunned by the village priest because she was of the lowest caste

one of the most disturbing parts of the program was even after death, not even religion would help an 'untouchable'.

R.I.P your better off out of this world

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nth-birth.html

[Piamed]

I watched body shock on channel 4 the other night, it was about the girl with 2 faces , little Lali was widely worshipped as the incarnation of a Hindu god/goddess, but when she died, she was shunned by the village priest because she was of the lowest caste

one of the most disturbing parts of the program was even after death, not even religion would help an 'untouchable'.
]

That was appalling indeed. Of course the issues related to that case were derived from superstition, cultural, educational and traditional perspectives as well as a specific religion. Unfortunately, people all over the world are shunned because they are different. It's a terrible thing to occur but it does because that is what individuals do sometimes for their own personal reasons, which are often not related to any religion. Most people with or without a religion would not treat the little girl like that.

I believe that faith and religion are very different things. Also, no two religions are the same just as no two faiths are. Additionally, individuals differ in terms of their understanding and behaviour, even within any given religion and faith.

Just as it is inappropriate to say that all non-belivers are the same, it is impossible to say that of people with a religion, not least of all as there are so many religions, each with distinct and fundamental principles, cultural and often traditions, etc.

Anyway, I've done my bit on this thread - I'm off to the airport!

[aromulus]

To lighten up a little bit guys.....


"I hear Glenn Hoddle has found God. That must have been one hell of a pass."


(Bob Davies).

[scott&ligaya]

Hi USA, interesting point you make, however just because someone has a right to a viewpoint (see comment by famous French philospher earlier) does not mean that it should be tolerated or accepted by the society it is expressed in, for example holocaust deniers or anti war protesters turning up at US soldiers funerals. Some views/actions SHOULD NOT EVER be tolerated. People who hold socially unacceptable views can be and generally are shunned. The problem with this is that they then congregrate together, form communitys - white supremacists and become more extreme.

off topic I know but just wanted to respond to your point

[KeithD]

The bottom line is that not all things that we believe to be true are based upon direct use of our senses.

[Piamed]

Hi USA, interesting point you make, however just because someone has a right to a viewpoint (see comment by famous French philospher earlier) does not mean that it should be tolerated or accepted by the society it is expressed in, for example holocaust deniers or anti war protesters turning up at US soldiers funerals. Some views/actions SHOULD NOT EVER be tolerated. People who hold socially unacceptable views can be and generally are shunned. The problem with this is that they then congregrate together, form communitys - white supremacists and become more extreme.

off topic I know but just wanted to respond to your point

Excellent points!

Which of your senses have provided you with evidence there is no God?

[aposhark]

How about intolerant people? Dont they have rights also?
I think you are being very intolerant of the empathicly challenged- or as you would so crudely put it "intolerent people"
People have the right to their own points of view. And if they wish to be narrow minded they shouldnt have to bother with you trying to make them feel "less than" or you trying to impose your will upon them by trying to shape the world to fit your idea of what "tolerence" is.
I really think you should maybe be banned from this forum or at least censored for a time until you can learn to be more tolerent.

If you read my posts before, you will know that I made a point of saying that all religious people feel they have the right to impose their beliefs on non-believers. You are right, I have absolutely no time for people who bother other people in the name of religion.
I also made the point, religion in the UK is dying and has been doing so for many years now.
These are facts, and facts that make me happy.
"banned from this forum"?
You have just joined, you have no reputation and few posts and you are already spouting off.
It is not for individuals to ban people here, it is for moderators, who incidentally are moderate people.
I have been all over the bible belt in Tenessee, having lived in the USA for many years.
What a sorry part of the USA that is - you can't even get a drink in Nashville late at night
Now, that's not living and it's no fun either.
When I lived in the USA, almost every week I had people knocking on my door in the name of religion and wanting donations for this, that and the other.
Now I never knocked on their doors bothering them, but as you would imagine, I sent them packing before they even got through their first sentence. What a liberty - knocking on MY door
Meanwhile, I live in a country that sees through all the religious brainwashing that is still prevalent in your country.
We do not pander to religious parties, and as I mentioned before, the churches are emptying due to, amongst other things, scandals that have rocked, and still rock the trust that is supposed to be offered to the flock.
The whole christian religious movement thing is tarnished beyond belief in my opinion and no amount of apologies from the churches in the USA and the UK will ever stop the terrible pain that the MANY young victims have suffered.
The christian church is outdated and corrupt, too much money and land is owned by the church, but once again I will reiterate, the church is emptying.
I wonder why ????????????????
Now I love my wife and we accept each other for our differences and I love children in any country, and I would always protect an innocent child from harm if I could.
Has the church?
You BET it didn't.
Bah

[aromulus]

I really think you should maybe be banned from this forum or at least censored for a time until you can learn to be more tolerent.

Judging by this.... your own tolerance level seems inexistent....

We are all expressing our views, in an open and fair forum, nobody, as far as I could follow, is trying to convert anyone to anything.

So... Banning and censoring ain't on the cards.

Editing....might be....

[Gavanddal]

Which of your senses have provided you with evidence there is no God?

If I've seen absolutely no evidence of something for 47 years then why would I believe it? I've no evidence that there's no fairies at the bottom of the garden apart from the fact that absolutely no-one has ever seen them.

Belief in god primarily derives from peoples inability to explain their origin or the world around them. It's an easy cop-out to attribute it to a mystical higher being. There's plenty of religious people who deny evolution despite the hard evidence. So it's more believable that someone made everything in 6 days, put two people on the earth who then had two sons whose wives mysteriously appeared from nowhere as there's no explanation of that? Someone started a great con trick with that nonsense.

[Piamed]

If I've seen absolutely no evidence of something for 47 years then why would I believe it? I've no evidence that there's no fairies at the bottom of the garden apart from the fact that absolutely no-one has ever seen them.

Belief in god primarily derives from peoples inability to explain their origin or the world around them. It's an easy cop-out to attribute it to a mystical higher being. There's plenty of religious people who deny evolution despite the hard evidence. So it's more believable that someone made everything in 6 days, put two people on the earth who then had two sons whose wives mysteriously appeared from nowhere as there's no explanation of that? Someone started a great con trick with that nonsense.

I've not seen baby Bush's brain but I know he has one. Some say they have seen fairies btw.

Anyway, suffice to say we have both stated our perspectives alongside those of others. I'm happy with that and will now atempt to retire gracefully!

[aposhark]

If I've seen absolutely no evidence of something for 47 years then why would I believe it? I've no evidence that there's no fairies at the bottom of the garden apart from the fact that absolutely no-one has ever seen them.

Belief in god primarily derives from peoples inability to explain their origin or the world around them. It's an easy cop-out to attribute it to a mystical higher being. There's plenty of religious people who deny evolution despite the hard evidence. So it's more believable that someone made everything in 6 days, put two people on the earth who then had two sons whose wives mysteriously appeared from nowhere as there's no explanation of that? Someone started a great con trick with that nonsense.

Excellent Gavanddal

[andypaul]

How about intolerant people? Dont they have rights also?
I think you are being very intolerant of the empathicly challenged- or as you would so crudely put it "intolerent people"
People have the right to their own points of view. And if they wish to be narrow minded they shouldnt have to bother with you trying to make them feel "less than" or you trying to impose your will upon them by trying to shape the world to fit your idea of what "tolerence" is.
I really think you should maybe be banned from this forum or at least censored for a time until you can learn to be more tolerent.

So let me get this right.

Aposhark supports those who wish to belive what they do as long as they dont wish to harm or bother others.

I would say thats a typical British (hopefully worldwide) belief.

[andypaul]

Hi USA, interesting point you make, however just because someone has a right to a viewpoint (see comment by famous French philospher earlier) does not mean that it should be tolerated or accepted by the society it is expressed in, for example holocaust deniers or anti war protesters turning up at US soldiers funerals. Some views/actions SHOULD NOT EVER be tolerated. People who hold socially unacceptable views can be and generally are shunned. The problem with this is that they then congregrate together, form communitys - white supremacists and become more extreme.

off topic I know but just wanted to respond to your point

[USA]

Judging by this.... your own tolerance level seems inexistent....

We are all expressing our views, in an open and fair forum, nobody, as far as I could follow, is trying to convert anyone to anything.

So... Banning and censoring ain't on the cards.

Editing....might be....

Ok, sorry to any that didn`t get it that I was making a joke.
I wouldn`t want to ban or censor anyone anywhere. Just a joke, in my own unusual sense of humor.(and I was so sure that almost all of the Brits at least would understand it was a joke, but guess not)

Humorous or not though I was making a larger point that "tolerence" has become a new mantra in our Western society.
Being that I`m kind of different from most folks I should embrace the idea with zeal, or so one might think. Instead I`m not all that thrilled with it. It`s less of a new liberation and closer to a new inquisition in and of itself. Are you "tolerent" enough to fit in? If not, the new "church" of tolerence will not tolerate you for long.
Most people, it seems to me, that push so hard for "tolerence" will tolerate almost anything-except an opinion that differs from their own.
I`ll try using more smilely faces etc when making a joke in the future.
Actually I`m somewhat suprised I havent been banned or at least reprimanded for something with some of the stuff I say on here.
How very tolerent of everyone.
Thanks

[joebloggs]

How very tolerent of everyone.

this country is too tolerant and PC. stories from the last few months..

Dennis the Menace was "toned down" to avoid accusations of "gay-bashing"

"Manning the phones" and "man on the street" deemed to be sexist phrases by council.

Mr T Snickers ad cancelled after human rights group complains of homophobia.

Sniffer dogs to wear Muslim bootees

Police apologise for dog advert after claims it may upset some Muslims http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2229...omplaints.html


etc...................................



well at least you can count on scouser Keith telling it straight