Fiance and her daughter.

[Ady]

I am applying for a fiance visa. The only thing is, my fiance's daughter is coming too. The reason is, my gf doesn't want to leave her behind especially as the only ones that can care for her daughter are elderly. I know, ideally, we would get married here, and bring her daughter later. Neither of us want to leave her behind, even for a few weeks.

Do we have to fill in a different VAF4 form for her? And also, I presume that means another circa £515 visa fee?

[jta]

yes ady 1 form for each applicant and another payment as well

[IainBusby]

I am applying for a fiance visa. The only thing is, my fiance's daughter is coming too. The reason is, my gf doesn't want to leave her behind especially as the only ones that can care for her daughter are elderly. I know, ideally, we would get married here, and bring her daughter later. Neither of us want to leave her behind, even for a few weeks.

Do we have to fill in a different VAF4 form for her? And also, I presume that means another circa £515 visa fee?

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

[menchkin]

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

Good point!

[Ady]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

[IainBusby]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

Hi Ady,
I think you mis-understood my line of thinking, they won't see it as irresponsible if your fiancee leaves her daughter behind in the Philippines. If she doesn't apply for a visa for her daughter, they will not consider her daughter's welfare in any way shape or form. They will just make a decision about your fiancee's visa based on the normal criteria they use, ie, your ablility to support her and house her etc and the evidence of your relationship.

It's only if you try to bring her to the UK that this will become part of the equation and as I said in my earlier post, I think this would complicate things greatly.

Also, I think that if she added a note to the application stating that her daughter would be staying with relatives until she was married and settled in the UK, at which time she hoped, with your support, to apply for a visa to bring her over to join you both, that this would show (to their minds) a stronger degree of responsiblity on her part
Iain.

[Ady]

Iain,

I can see where you are coming from. If you put it that way, then yes it makes sense not to include the daughter in the fiancee visa application. However, the genuine problem is that there is no-one to take care of her daughter - no relatives willing or able to do it.

I am considering getting provisional approval from schools, and including quotes for extra tuition in our application - to show the daughter's welfare has been considered. The alternative is to marry in The Philippines, but that is not an option for my own (and families) personal reasons.

I am visiting the Immigration Advisory Service mainly over this matter in a week's time.

I agree with what you say, however sometimes there are reasons why the fiancee will bring a child with them. I have seen it happen with a man bringing his Russian fiancee here, and by countless American and Indian fiancees doing the same thing. I also know the Manila ECOs are stricter than others, particularly when considering Visit visas. One could argue that there is discrimination between poorer nations and G7 stature nations, but I wouldn't suggest that for a moment.

I have taken them both to HK and Singapore, they have returned back home each time. I am even renting a bigger place in readiness for the application. But, you are quite correct to think of it from an ECO view, and this is definately one area that has a potential to trip us up.

[Mrs.JMajor]

You really deserve for a point Iain

[IainBusby]

You really deserve for a point Iain

Thanks for that. I hope someone gives me another one soon cos I'm now on 13 and I'm very supersticious.

[PeterB]

I think that this sentence, in the following paragraph, covers your case and should give you cause for hope.
"In assessing whether there are serious and compelling considerations it would normally be undesirable to exclude a child who had largely been cared for by the "fiancé(e) / proposed civil partner parent"