If you knew somone

[PeterB]

... but, this is not a completely victimless crime. All those who follow the prescribed channels in order to gain legitimate entry to the UK are having to make a stronger case in their application, paying higher fees, waiting longer for a decision.

In addition, those who are illegal stayers will almost certainly taking other liberties, such as not be paying their taxes. This increases the financial burden on every honest member of society.

[keithAngel]

... but, this is not a completely victimless crime. All those who follow the prescribed channels in order to gain legitimate entry to the UK are having to make a stronger case in their application, paying higher fees, waiting longer for a decision.

In addition, those who are illegal stayers will almost certainly taking other liberties, such as not be paying their taxes. This increases the financial burden on every honest member of society.

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

[andypaul]

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

Think your be surprised how well some people here who shall we say are comiting visa fruad do.
Yes some live like virtual slaves and surely they should be rescused by the authorities and helped to return home to safety.

But i have personal experience of people who are here on say student visas for long long periods and have very nice jobs and earning well over the minimum wage.
I can also say i have witnessed people from cleaning firms and temp agencies who i knew who borrowed others NI and id. Some of these people i had personal contact with spoke very good english and had been in the UK for considerable times.

A few years ago there was one guy who had a very well paid job who was only caught when he left the UK and was on the way back from the channel isles and found to be a crimnal and deserter from i think it was ukraine. He also had a fake driving license which he was driving on, having been in his company car on many occasions he made you think how you were covered if he did have an accident? This was before in depth checks were made in most UK firms.

I think we have to be careful we dont either demonise people on one hand or treat them as always helpless victims on the other.

Many of those with out the right to either live and/or work in the UK, who I had personal contact with also for various reasons in some cases concocted other lies about themsleves both at work and in their social lives. Often even lovers and very close friends had no idea of their true identiy.
For example one cleaner who once found to be ilegaly here in the Uk was sacked on the spot. He disapeared and his girlfriend who worked with the one of the companies security guard at another workplace. The security guard told me it was he who had got the guy his job and had as a favour to the guys girlfriend even handed the guys cv and some paperwork to the cleaning company supervisor.
Both the Girlfriend and Security guard ended up with being investigated and fingers of suscpion pointing at them even though both had been fed lies by the chap.

I understand people would keep their cards close to their chest but it must have been worrying to these people what else they hid from them?

[joebloggs]

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

not true, some illegal immigrants come here hidden in the back of lorries, no visa required

many come on a visitor or student visa, these visa's are a lot cheaper than a settlement visa.

they earned less than the minimum wage, because their illegal immigrants and in most cases exploited by bosses who don't pay their NAT or TAX.

why should they be entitled to benefits, my wife wasn't entitled to maternity pay on a spouse visa, and she was working, so why should others be able to who are illegally here??

my and my wife work like dogs to send money back to her family..

people should go by the rules, i had to and everyone on here did, everyone on here ( except Europeans in the uk - dom ) had to pay alot for their visa, and to provide evidence they were in a relationship, and show they could support their wife and the play the waiting game.. something that those illegal immigrants you talk about didn't

i'm all for fair play and rules everyone abides by,

and keith, this country has a major problem will illegal immigrants, which there are estimated to be 1 million of in the uk.

[keithAngel]

joebloggs

[/left];96214]not true, some illegal immigrants come here hidden in the back of lorries, no visa required

many come on a visitor or student visa, these visa's are a lot cheaper than a settlement visa.

they earned less than the minimum wage, because their illegal immigrants and in most cases exploited by bosses who don't pay their NAT or TAX.

why should they be entitled to benefits, my wife wasn't entitled to maternity pay on a spouse visa, and she was working, so why should others be able to who are illegally here??

my and my wife work like dogs to send money back to her family..



people should go by the rules, i had to and everyone on here did, everyone on here ( except Europeans in the

UK

-

dom

) had to pay

a lot

for their visa, and to provide evidence they were in a relationship, and show they could support their wife and the play the waiting game.. something that those illegal immigrants you talk about didn't

I'm

all for fair play and rules everyone abides by,

and

Keith

, this country has a major problem will illegal immigrants, which there are estimated to be 1 million of in the uk.

If the

figuer

is

realy

at the million mark Joe Id suspect

colusion

on the "authorities" part as that would mean about one in every 40 adults was one reasonably easy to deal with and think of the jobs it would create for local councils.

Clearly if you make it on a lorry our border controls are crap and

that's

what we should be tackling after all they could be terrorists.

As you may have gathered I am not a supporter of a fortress mentality and I agree with you that our rights under the European Laws are being

flouted

by our Government once the state acts in such a way it becomes very difficult if not impossible to expect support from the informed population that is not drugged with their daily dose of Big Brother

etc

But the thing that I am responding to in this thread is that to the question in the O.P.

!, Would not turn some one in for simply wanting what I already have

2, I find it offensive to "Demonise" people by generalising them as "not righteous" and "wicked"

3. It is my view that I should be able not only to love who I choose but also not be subject to ANY form of control economic or otherwise regarding where we live

4, As to the hard pressed taxpayers what would it cost to catch and repatriate 1,000,000 illegals? Current

expenditure

is a drop in the ocean compared to what taxpayers have just given the banks and no

doubt

more to come

[andypaul]

If the

figuer

is

realy

at the million mark Joe Id suspect

colusion

on the "authorities" part as that would mean about one in every 40 adults was one reasonably easy to deal with and think of the jobs it would create for local councils.


Clearly if you make it on a lorry our border controls are crap and

that's

what we should be tackling after all they could be terrorists.


As you may have gathered I am not a supporter of a fortress mentality and I agree with you that our rights under the European Laws are being

flouted

by our Government once the state acts in such a way it becomes very difficult if not impossible to expect support from the informed population that is not drugged with their daily dose of Big Brother

etc

But the thing that I am responding to in this thread is that to the question in the O.P.

!, Would not turn some one in for simply wanting what I already have

2, I find it offensive to "Demonise" people by generalising them as "not righteous" and "wicked"

3. It is my view that I should be able not only to love who I choose but also not be subject to ANY form of control economic or otherwise regarding where we live


4, As to the hard pressed taxpayers what would it cost to catch and repatriate 1,000,000 illegals? Current

expenditure

is a drop in the ocean compared to what taxpayers have just given the banks and no

doubt

more to come

Well we cant really afford the bank subs there was no other choice it was like the person who needed to pay the mortage with a credit card. last resort which means they will pay for later.
Now there is no money for many things( Its all on the never never now as you know)

The right to marry who you like i agree with.

No control ecomnic or on where you live sounds great in princple but what happens if we all wanted to move into one house or to one location?
It is no good for anyone the existing residents or those that move in.

Many of the countries that those coming here are from also have local controls to stop ecomonic migrants.

Sadly you have to have controls if we had them in place earlier they could have been far less harsh than they are now i feel. But hey ho we live and learn.

I still argue that it does impose a security risk not so much on a national scale most of the time.
In London from people i know in many walks of life and backgrounds a big fear that many share is having an accident with a person who doesn't exist.

If they have insurance its probably void if the company starts digging and most would not bother.

I know of at least one school in london where the cleaning companies staff were raided due to thefts at the school and many were not who they said they were. From what i gather they had nothing to do with the robberies.

But the very fact cleaners were not who they said they were and the named people on the documents were the ones security checked not them means that a big security flaw in place we would like to think is safe occured.

Would you like that in the school or nursery your children go to?
Would you like it at the hospital your family use?
Would you like it at the care home older family may use?

Many of the communities that really get peed of with this issue in my experience are the people coming from countries with high levels of people coming over ilegally.

Another issue which will rise its head is what will happen to all the ilegal workers who are not required as the ecomony shrinks and measures become tighter?

[joebloggs]

http://www.publications.parliament.u...70709-0003.htm

Illegal Immigrants

8. Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): What steps she is taking to enhance the effectiveness of the measures in place to prevent illegal immigrants from entering the UK. [147909]

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. Liam Byrne): There are two key steps to countering illegal immigration: biometrics to lock visitors down to a single identity, and intercepting and stopping illegal immigrants as far from our shores as possible.

9 July 2007 : Column 1185

Mr. Evans: I endorse what the Minister has said, but Migrationwatch UK states that there are 875,000 illegal immigrants in the country, and that 50,000 of them are detected every year but only one in four are returned home. We should thank goodness that we are an island. May I suggest three steps? First, we should link fingerprints to passport details in the worst offending countries so that no one can say, “I’ve lost my papers”, in between boarding an aeroplane and getting off it. Secondly, we should have a national border police so that we can secure our borders better. Finally, when illegal immigrants are detected and they fail asylum procedures, 100 per cent. of them should be returned to their country of origin.

Mr. Byrne: I saw some of the news associated with that Migrationwatch report. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, since exit controls were phased out from 1994 it has been difficult to know how many illegal immigrants are in the country; that is why we are introducing a system to count people in and out. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is a good idea to keep the problem as far away as possible from our shores. We are now introducing biometric visas, which have already led to us finding 4,000 people with an immigration history we had reason to be suspicious about who were trying to get back into the country. E-borders, which screens people at check-in, is already up and running and has already resulted in 1,000 arrests. Increasing our offshore border control will be an important part of what we do. However, more money is needed in order to remove more people who are here, but when we brought forward proposals this year to raise visa charges to provide an additional £100 million for immigration policing, Front-Bench Members of the hon. Gentleman’s party sat on their hands in Committee.


migrationwatch is not a pro immigration pressure group, so the figure could be less than that, but that was more than a year ago, so who knows how many are here, the gov estimated that less than 50,000 poles would come to the uk, and more than 500,000 came, so one thing is, the gov figures on illegal immigrants will be lower than the real figure.

some links for u to browse at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7564584.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...cy-immigration

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3075...me-Office.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ministers.html

one thing is Keith, the problem is a lot more serious and bigger than you think it is..

[Toyang]

they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

Still not a valid reason, as Joe said earlier that some of them are on student and visitor visas, if they can afford to pay their tickets to come to UK with that sum of money for example if that person is from the Philippines or other parts of Asia, they can start a small ventures to make a way of living without leaving their country and not violating the rules.
Well, I do feel so sorry for those people having a hard time looking for job, because most of the job position has been filled- up by the illegal workers whose willing to accept the under minimum wage.