If you knew somone

[andypaul]

gee people get of ur high horse, i am certain at one point in our lives we all have broken rules, a parking ticket? parking on a disabled spot when its raining? speeding? only we never got caught. why do you worry yourselves with what others are doing? as long as we are doing right with others surely that is what matters?

So we should ignore all others that break the law Making it harder for the ones like oursleves who wish to follow the rules.

When you were at Wembley would you have been ok if someone broke the law and entered with a false ticket or none at all and took your seat?
I guess you would have looked the other way.

Thats why many on here complain that its so dangrous here and in phill. Because people just look the other way when people break the law or display unsocialable behaviour.

Feel free to ignore, just dont complain if they ever tighten up the rules so much due to people constantly breaking the condtions of a visa that a member of your family cant get over to the UK legaly, that or faces oppressive checks and doubts by those in a official capacity.

[Ana_may365]

exactly!

[sneaker23]

different strokes for different cultures.
best follow rules of where you are.

[IainBusby]

So we should ignore all others that break the law Making it harder for the ones like oursleves who wish to follow the rules.

When you were at Wembley would you have been ok if someone broke the law and entered with a false ticket or none at all and took your seat?
I guess you would have looked the other way.

Thats why many on here complain that its so dangrous here and in phill. Because people just look the other way when people break the law or display unsocialable behaviour.

Feel free to ignore, just dont complain if they ever tighten up the rules so much due to people constantly breaking the condtions of a visa that a member of your family cant get over to the UK legaly, that or faces oppressive checks and doubts by those in a official capacity.

Hear Hear.

[vbkelly]

if they are my good friends no

it doesn't matter if they are friends of mine they are breaking the law

[keithAngel]

I have to say guys that there is a lot of poppy cock on this thread!!

Our forebears broke all sorts of laws to win the freedoms that are now being eroded bad and unjust laws always require brave souls to challenge them and that's one of the rights and responsibilities that goes with living in a free country.

In fact every citizen in my view has the right to say NO you may have to take the sanctions that that entails but the alternative is to wake up one day and find you have no rights at all

Joe your point on Europe and unfair visa fees is well made but the responsibility to challenge it lies with one of us that feels strongly enough to do so otherwise it just goes on.

People who are working their butts off abroad to support their loved ones who happen to live in economically deprived areas of the world regardless of their visa or lack of it "ARE NOT CRIMINALS OR ROBBERS" we sent them to Australia already

We didn't fill out many visa apps when we controlled a third of the world and the sun didn't set so I for one think that any moral high ground here is hypocritical in the extreme and the Filipino response here might better be directed at the corrupt lawbreakers,often in positions of trust, in your motherland than to your fellow countrymen who's aspirations and needs you should all understand and empathise with

Rant Over

I think I,ll have a beer now

[Toyang]

it doesn't matter if they are friends of mine they are breaking the law

[Toyang]

I know some Filipinas who brougth here in the UK by their employers as a domestic helper-visitor visa, but they never attemp to stay illegally or run away from their employer`s household, because they do not want to break the law and preferred to go back to their origin with their employers. I salute those people who preferred to keep their name and dignity intact and keep teir immigartions record clean, yet all of them have family and children back home.
I do believe that having children and family to support in the Phils should not be enough reason to violate the rules, its just some people just chose to do wrong even they know it.
How would you feel when your close friends or relative have to go back to the Phils, because she have to leave the UK before her/ his visa expires, it is so sad to see our relatives leaving us, even you know she/ he can stay here without needing to work or seek public funds but she/he have to leave.

[keithAngel]

If you knew someone whose overstaying and working illegally in the UK, are you going to report her/him to the Immigration Police?

My personal point of view, if I knew someone whose overstaying, I will not tolerate him/her , because it unfair to all of us who did everyting and strictly follow all the rules to be able us to get to the UK legally even it cost us of long stressfull waiting.

No problem for those that choose I just don't personally feel comfortable making any kind of judgement about someone who took a different decision and in this thread you were asking would you turn them in, in my view long stressful waiting and fees paid don't have anything to do with the question, Who ever they are, they got here and I am in no position to interfere with their lives that's in Gods hands or Karma if you like.

The only difference between me and them is an accident of birth mine means I can go almost anywhere except the norf perhaps

[maria_and_matt]

No problem for those that choose I just don't personally feel comfortable making any kind of judgement about someone who took a different decision and in this thread you were asking would you turn them in, in my view long stressful waiting and fees paid don't have anything to do with the question, Who ever they are, they got here and I am in no position to interfere with their lives that's in Gods hands or Karma if you like.

The only difference between me and them is an accident of birth mine means I can go almost anywhere except the norf perhaps

well said keith finally someone talking sense!

[PeterB]

... but, this is not a completely victimless crime. All those who follow the prescribed channels in order to gain legitimate entry to the UK are having to make a stronger case in their application, paying higher fees, waiting longer for a decision.

In addition, those who are illegal stayers will almost certainly taking other liberties, such as not be paying their taxes. This increases the financial burden on every honest member of society.

[Toyang]

I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people.

[Toyang]

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/new...kers_arrested/

[keithAngel]

... but, this is not a completely victimless crime. All those who follow the prescribed channels in order to gain legitimate entry to the UK are having to make a stronger case in their application, paying higher fees, waiting longer for a decision.

In addition, those who are illegal stayers will almost certainly taking other liberties, such as not be paying their taxes. This increases the financial burden on every honest member of society.

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

[andypaul]

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

Think your be surprised how well some people here who shall we say are comiting visa fruad do.
Yes some live like virtual slaves and surely they should be rescused by the authorities and helped to return home to safety.

But i have personal experience of people who are here on say student visas for long long periods and have very nice jobs and earning well over the minimum wage.
I can also say i have witnessed people from cleaning firms and temp agencies who i knew who borrowed others NI and id. Some of these people i had personal contact with spoke very good english and had been in the UK for considerable times.

A few years ago there was one guy who had a very well paid job who was only caught when he left the UK and was on the way back from the channel isles and found to be a crimnal and deserter from i think it was ukraine. He also had a fake driving license which he was driving on, having been in his company car on many occasions he made you think how you were covered if he did have an accident? This was before in depth checks were made in most UK firms.

I think we have to be careful we dont either demonise people on one hand or treat them as always helpless victims on the other.

Many of those with out the right to either live and/or work in the UK, who I had personal contact with also for various reasons in some cases concocted other lies about themsleves both at work and in their social lives. Often even lovers and very close friends had no idea of their true identiy.
For example one cleaner who once found to be ilegaly here in the Uk was sacked on the spot. He disapeared and his girlfriend who worked with the one of the companies security guard at another workplace. The security guard told me it was he who had got the guy his job and had as a favour to the guys girlfriend even handed the guys cv and some paperwork to the cleaning company supervisor.
Both the Girlfriend and Security guard ended up with being investigated and fingers of suscpion pointing at them even though both had been fed lies by the chap.

I understand people would keep their cards close to their chest but it must have been worrying to these people what else they hid from them?

[joebloggs]

That seems strange to me Pete as all those who got in had already jumped over the prescribed hoops to get some kind of entry visa in the first place .

My thoughts on your secondary point are that for most in this position they will be earning well below minimum wages and would therefor be under the threshold for normal tax in addition they don't have any rights or benefits and like the rest of us will be paying vat, fuel taxes etc whilst working like dogs to support there dependants overseas there but for the grace of...T

Toyang I`m glad that still there are more people who stand for the righteousness and not delighted in the works of wicked people. 5 Hours Ago 11:44

To be honest Toyang your attitude with this statement is shocking to me and I am truly sorry that your life experience would lead you to these conclusions to accuse people you don't know of "wickedness" when it may well be they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

not true, some illegal immigrants come here hidden in the back of lorries, no visa required

many come on a visitor or student visa, these visa's are a lot cheaper than a settlement visa.

they earned less than the minimum wage, because their illegal immigrants and in most cases exploited by bosses who don't pay their NAT or TAX.

why should they be entitled to benefits, my wife wasn't entitled to maternity pay on a spouse visa, and she was working, so why should others be able to who are illegally here??

my and my wife work like dogs to send money back to her family..

people should go by the rules, i had to and everyone on here did, everyone on here ( except Europeans in the uk - dom ) had to pay alot for their visa, and to provide evidence they were in a relationship, and show they could support their wife and the play the waiting game.. something that those illegal immigrants you talk about didn't

i'm all for fair play and rules everyone abides by,

and keith, this country has a major problem will illegal immigrants, which there are estimated to be 1 million of in the uk.

[Toyang]

they are simply trying to put rice in there children's bellies flies in the face of all human kindness

Still not a valid reason, as Joe said earlier that some of them are on student and visitor visas, if they can afford to pay their tickets to come to UK with that sum of money for example if that person is from the Philippines or other parts of Asia, they can start a small ventures to make a way of living without leaving their country and not violating the rules.
Well, I do feel so sorry for those people having a hard time looking for job, because most of the job position has been filled- up by the illegal workers whose willing to accept the under minimum wage.

[Toyang]

The battle at the UK Border Agency comes at a price though.

Figures show overall expenditure for travel, accommodation and hospitality has quadrupled since 2003/04. Last year the department spent £10,520,541.

This included £1.7million on air travel and more than £4 million on hotels.

Taxi fares almost doubled to £732,000 while train travel went up a staggering £2.5 million to £3.2 million.

Shadow Immigration Minister Damien Green who obtained the figures said, "The Borders' Agency need a wake-up call: this money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from the pockets of hard-pressed taxpayers.




http://www...........s.com/news/the_...ration560.html

[Toyang]

Illegal working is unfair on honest employers who recruit staff with the right to work in the UK and who pay them a proper salary.

[keithAngel]

joebloggs

[/left];96214]not true, some illegal immigrants come here hidden in the back of lorries, no visa required

many come on a visitor or student visa, these visa's are a lot cheaper than a settlement visa.

they earned less than the minimum wage, because their illegal immigrants and in most cases exploited by bosses who don't pay their NAT or TAX.

why should they be entitled to benefits, my wife wasn't entitled to maternity pay on a spouse visa, and she was working, so why should others be able to who are illegally here??

my and my wife work like dogs to send money back to her family..



people should go by the rules, i had to and everyone on here did, everyone on here ( except Europeans in the

UK

-

dom

) had to pay

a lot

for their visa, and to provide evidence they were in a relationship, and show they could support their wife and the play the waiting game.. something that those illegal immigrants you talk about didn't

I'm

all for fair play and rules everyone abides by,

and

Keith

, this country has a major problem will illegal immigrants, which there are estimated to be 1 million of in the uk.

If the

figuer

is

realy

at the million mark Joe Id suspect

colusion

on the "authorities" part as that would mean about one in every 40 adults was one reasonably easy to deal with and think of the jobs it would create for local councils.

Clearly if you make it on a lorry our border controls are crap and

that's

what we should be tackling after all they could be terrorists.

As you may have gathered I am not a supporter of a fortress mentality and I agree with you that our rights under the European Laws are being

flouted

by our Government once the state acts in such a way it becomes very difficult if not impossible to expect support from the informed population that is not drugged with their daily dose of Big Brother

etc

But the thing that I am responding to in this thread is that to the question in the O.P.

!, Would not turn some one in for simply wanting what I already have

2, I find it offensive to "Demonise" people by generalising them as "not righteous" and "wicked"

3. It is my view that I should be able not only to love who I choose but also not be subject to ANY form of control economic or otherwise regarding where we live

4, As to the hard pressed taxpayers what would it cost to catch and repatriate 1,000,000 illegals? Current

expenditure

is a drop in the ocean compared to what taxpayers have just given the banks and no

doubt

more to come

[andypaul]

If the

figuer

is

realy

at the million mark Joe Id suspect

colusion

on the "authorities" part as that would mean about one in every 40 adults was one reasonably easy to deal with and think of the jobs it would create for local councils.


Clearly if you make it on a lorry our border controls are crap and

that's

what we should be tackling after all they could be terrorists.


As you may have gathered I am not a supporter of a fortress mentality and I agree with you that our rights under the European Laws are being

flouted

by our Government once the state acts in such a way it becomes very difficult if not impossible to expect support from the informed population that is not drugged with their daily dose of Big Brother

etc

But the thing that I am responding to in this thread is that to the question in the O.P.

!, Would not turn some one in for simply wanting what I already have

2, I find it offensive to "Demonise" people by generalising them as "not righteous" and "wicked"

3. It is my view that I should be able not only to love who I choose but also not be subject to ANY form of control economic or otherwise regarding where we live


4, As to the hard pressed taxpayers what would it cost to catch and repatriate 1,000,000 illegals? Current

expenditure

is a drop in the ocean compared to what taxpayers have just given the banks and no

doubt

more to come

Well we cant really afford the bank subs there was no other choice it was like the person who needed to pay the mortage with a credit card. last resort which means they will pay for later.
Now there is no money for many things( Its all on the never never now as you know)

The right to marry who you like i agree with.

No control ecomnic or on where you live sounds great in princple but what happens if we all wanted to move into one house or to one location?
It is no good for anyone the existing residents or those that move in.

Many of the countries that those coming here are from also have local controls to stop ecomonic migrants.

Sadly you have to have controls if we had them in place earlier they could have been far less harsh than they are now i feel. But hey ho we live and learn.

I still argue that it does impose a security risk not so much on a national scale most of the time.
In London from people i know in many walks of life and backgrounds a big fear that many share is having an accident with a person who doesn't exist.

If they have insurance its probably void if the company starts digging and most would not bother.

I know of at least one school in london where the cleaning companies staff were raided due to thefts at the school and many were not who they said they were. From what i gather they had nothing to do with the robberies.

But the very fact cleaners were not who they said they were and the named people on the documents were the ones security checked not them means that a big security flaw in place we would like to think is safe occured.

Would you like that in the school or nursery your children go to?
Would you like it at the hospital your family use?
Would you like it at the care home older family may use?

Many of the communities that really get peed of with this issue in my experience are the people coming from countries with high levels of people coming over ilegally.

Another issue which will rise its head is what will happen to all the ilegal workers who are not required as the ecomony shrinks and measures become tighter?

[joebloggs]

http://www.publications.parliament.u...70709-0003.htm

Illegal Immigrants

8. Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): What steps she is taking to enhance the effectiveness of the measures in place to prevent illegal immigrants from entering the UK. [147909]

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. Liam Byrne): There are two key steps to countering illegal immigration: biometrics to lock visitors down to a single identity, and intercepting and stopping illegal immigrants as far from our shores as possible.

9 July 2007 : Column 1185

Mr. Evans: I endorse what the Minister has said, but Migrationwatch UK states that there are 875,000 illegal immigrants in the country, and that 50,000 of them are detected every year but only one in four are returned home. We should thank goodness that we are an island. May I suggest three steps? First, we should link fingerprints to passport details in the worst offending countries so that no one can say, “I’ve lost my papers”, in between boarding an aeroplane and getting off it. Secondly, we should have a national border police so that we can secure our borders better. Finally, when illegal immigrants are detected and they fail asylum procedures, 100 per cent. of them should be returned to their country of origin.

Mr. Byrne: I saw some of the news associated with that Migrationwatch report. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, since exit controls were phased out from 1994 it has been difficult to know how many illegal immigrants are in the country; that is why we are introducing a system to count people in and out. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is a good idea to keep the problem as far away as possible from our shores. We are now introducing biometric visas, which have already led to us finding 4,000 people with an immigration history we had reason to be suspicious about who were trying to get back into the country. E-borders, which screens people at check-in, is already up and running and has already resulted in 1,000 arrests. Increasing our offshore border control will be an important part of what we do. However, more money is needed in order to remove more people who are here, but when we brought forward proposals this year to raise visa charges to provide an additional £100 million for immigration policing, Front-Bench Members of the hon. Gentleman’s party sat on their hands in Committee.


migrationwatch is not a pro immigration pressure group, so the figure could be less than that, but that was more than a year ago, so who knows how many are here, the gov estimated that less than 50,000 poles would come to the uk, and more than 500,000 came, so one thing is, the gov figures on illegal immigrants will be lower than the real figure.

some links for u to browse at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7564584.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...cy-immigration

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3075...me-Office.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ministers.html

one thing is Keith, the problem is a lot more serious and bigger than you think it is..

[bornatbirth]

i say goodluck to any overstayer,there are so many wastes of space in the uk already then whats so wrong with a few more.

any overstayer from the philipines in the uk we all know why they are still here,so they can earn and send the money home,but then isnt that why lots of polish are coming here.

if only all the countries in the world gave everyone the same chance in life most of them will stay in there own country,until then get use to it.

[joebloggs]

there are so many wastes of space in the uk already then whats so wrong with a few more.

space , is there any space left in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7618994.stm

[pennybarry]

Illegal working is unfair on honest employers who recruit staff with the right to work in the UK and who pay them a proper salary.

I know some here that works cash on hand (part time) and they are receiving benefits from government because they declrared they are jobless with kids.

I work fulltime and at the end of the week I have 80£ deductions from my wages. I am thinking if this deductions will help those benefits claimants, then this must be very unfair as I have hard day everyday

[keithAngel]

I know some here that works cash on hand (part time) and they are receiving benefits from government because they declrared they are jobless with kids.

I work fulltime and at the end of the week I have 80£ deductions from my wages. I am thinking if this deductions will help those benefits claimants, then this must be very unfair as I have hard day everyday

Different subject Pennybarry they are claim frauds not overstayers

[andypaul]

Different subject Pennybarry they are claim frauds not overstayers

To many hardworking Indigeous Brits and those orignaly from abroad on a Visa both are robbing resources that should be going to those that follow the Law of the land.

For example many overstayers or those who entered ilegally use the A and E in busier hospitals as their GP as they know they will not be asked to many questions.

I didn't read that in a paper or hear it off a mate of a mate, I have spent a few hours watching the goings on in several A and E receptions in central London. Due to a work project and customer visits..

It frustrates both medical and admin staff but know its not worth making a fuss.
I saw examples myself while there of people it was plain to see giving fake addresses and details in general. The staff even appeared to have addresses they use when its clear the person is too confused (due to not being well enough) to fib
Funnily enough i saw tourists/workers from EU countries who were being admitted who were aplogetic and wondering if they needed to pay or show details.

I noticed while there and had it confirmed to me by two clerks that many of those not entitled to care would come in big waves when they had busy periods to ensure they either went unnoticed or knew the admin staff were over stretched. Even though the staff admitted there was little they could do.
The biggest issue they had was with people releasing themselves in a hurry once the intial care or consultation was given. As they know as shown on posters that if you need aftercare hospitals may check up on your rights to it.

Some Im told would then have to be prescribed expensive medcines which they would just pay the prescription fee.

while we should never deny health care to any and no Doctor or nurse I met would dream of it.

They should not be taking them resources from those who have earned them imo.

[joebloggs]

well Keith maybe your views would change, when you have to go by the rules and thank yourself lucky, you've not had to pay £4,000 for visa fees like i have had to, then read on other forums what illegal immigrants will do to stay and prevent their removal from the uk. some have no intention of going back, some on the student visas have never attended a class, fake unis and collages, marrying eastern Europeans and other non uk Europeans to stay here.

some illegal immigrants come here hoping their will be an amnesty for the 500,000+ who are illegally here. maybe you've not heard of the 10yr or 14yr rule, for those here for 14 years lawfully or unlawfully without Removal Directions or a Deportation Order having been issued against you during that time, you may be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom under the long residence rule.

when a person applies for a student or visitor visa, they agree by signing the visa app form, they will leave the country before their visa expires, those who don't are not 'overstayers' but have broken the law and here Illegally.

just open your eyes, and see what's going on around you

[keithAngel]

Thanks Joe and Andy I do understand your views and you are of course entitled to them, Its clearly an emotive subject and I doubt any amount of "money" paid will change mine as it springs from a position ,formulated over long years that the developed countries have a vast ocean of "karma" to expiate from our imperialist past.

I got a nice picture of this here yesterday in the Santa Nino Basilique whilst looking at the series of portraits of the Spanish bringing "civilisation" to the natives, having set the standard to aspire to so many years ago it comes as no surprise to me that so many people would wish to come to the cradle of culture and experience the delights of Britain (so clearly expounded here on the forum) In fact I have done my best to explain to my beloved that the UK is not the land of milk and honey she has been led to believe.

Having already made various unanswered points I see no purpose in repetition.

maybe you've not heard of the 10yr or 14yr rule, for those here for 14 years lawfully or unlawfully without Removal Directions or a Deportation Order having been issued against you during that time, you may be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom under the long residence rule.

No I hadn't heard of that, but my logical mind jumps to the conclusion that forgiveness for past "wickedness" is therefor embodied in our laws, if you can get away with it for long enough

[fred]

it doesn't matter if they are friends of mine they are breaking the law

So glad you are not my..... "friend" !!
Geez...It does`nt bare thinking about!!