Fiance and her daughter.

[Ady]

I am applying for a fiance visa. The only thing is, my fiance's daughter is coming too. The reason is, my gf doesn't want to leave her behind especially as the only ones that can care for her daughter are elderly. I know, ideally, we would get married here, and bring her daughter later. Neither of us want to leave her behind, even for a few weeks.

Do we have to fill in a different VAF4 form for her? And also, I presume that means another circa £515 visa fee?

[jta]

yes ady 1 form for each applicant and another payment as well

[IainBusby]

I am applying for a fiance visa. The only thing is, my fiance's daughter is coming too. The reason is, my gf doesn't want to leave her behind especially as the only ones that can care for her daughter are elderly. I know, ideally, we would get married here, and bring her daughter later. Neither of us want to leave her behind, even for a few weeks.

Do we have to fill in a different VAF4 form for her? And also, I presume that means another circa £515 visa fee?

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

[Mrs.JMajor]

You really deserve for a point Iain

[IainBusby]

You really deserve for a point Iain

Thanks for that. I hope someone gives me another one soon cos I'm now on 13 and I'm very supersticious.

[menchkin]

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

Good point!

[Ady]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

[IainBusby]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

Hi Ady,
I think you mis-understood my line of thinking, they won't see it as irresponsible if your fiancee leaves her daughter behind in the Philippines. If she doesn't apply for a visa for her daughter, they will not consider her daughter's welfare in any way shape or form. They will just make a decision about your fiancee's visa based on the normal criteria they use, ie, your ablility to support her and house her etc and the evidence of your relationship.

It's only if you try to bring her to the UK that this will become part of the equation and as I said in my earlier post, I think this would complicate things greatly.

Also, I think that if she added a note to the application stating that her daughter would be staying with relatives until she was married and settled in the UK, at which time she hoped, with your support, to apply for a visa to bring her over to join you both, that this would show (to their minds) a stronger degree of responsiblity on her part
Iain.

[Ady]

Iain,

I can see where you are coming from. If you put it that way, then yes it makes sense not to include the daughter in the fiancee visa application. However, the genuine problem is that there is no-one to take care of her daughter - no relatives willing or able to do it.

I am considering getting provisional approval from schools, and including quotes for extra tuition in our application - to show the daughter's welfare has been considered. The alternative is to marry in The Philippines, but that is not an option for my own (and families) personal reasons.

I am visiting the Immigration Advisory Service mainly over this matter in a week's time.

I agree with what you say, however sometimes there are reasons why the fiancee will bring a child with them. I have seen it happen with a man bringing his Russian fiancee here, and by countless American and Indian fiancees doing the same thing. I also know the Manila ECOs are stricter than others, particularly when considering Visit visas. One could argue that there is discrimination between poorer nations and G7 stature nations, but I wouldn't suggest that for a moment.

I have taken them both to HK and Singapore, they have returned back home each time. I am even renting a bigger place in readiness for the application. But, you are quite correct to think of it from an ECO view, and this is definately one area that has a potential to trip us up.

[joebloggs]

if i was you, i would apply for a visa for her, it shows more commitment from you, that you do intend to marry if you bring her daughter. strengthens your g/f and her daughters visa app. surely your g/f and you would want her daughter/your future stepdaughter to be at your wedding and in the uk with you

how old is your g/fs daughter ?

if you leave her behind, then you will have to provide evidence when you do apply for a visa for her, showing financial support, also who's been looking after her etc.

is the girls father mentioned on her birth cert? does she have contact with her father? you know your g/f has to prove she has 'sole responsibility' for her daughter.

a good letter of support for your future wife, and mentioning your future stepdaughter, stating her future is as important to you as your futures wife's is. and leaving her behind is not a option as your family would not be complete if separated should help

good luck

[Ady]

Thanks Joe... Iain is right too, as are you. It is how the ECO potentially looks at these things. That is the big unanswered question. But, the way you put it is certainly something that may find itself in our cover letters ;-)

My g/f has sole responsibility following the annulment.

[benb]

if i was you, i would apply for a visa for her, it shows more commitment from you, that you do intend to marry if you bring her daughter. strengthens your g/f and her daughters visa app. surely your g/f and you would want her daughter/your future stepdaughter to be at your wedding and in the uk with you

how old is your g/fs daughter ?

if you leave her behind, then you will have to provide evidence when you do apply for a visa for her, showing financial support, also who's been looking after her etc.

is the girls father mentioned on her birth cert? does she have contact with her father? you know your g/f has to prove she has 'sole responsibility' for her daughter.

a good letter of support for your future wife, and mentioning your future stepdaughter, stating her future is as important to you as your futures wife's is. and leaving her behind is not a option as your family would not be complete if separated should help

good luck

Ahh...you beat me to it again!

Commitment is a crucial factor for fiancee visa! I would certainly go with Joe's advice instead.

[joebloggs]

Thanks Joe... Iain is right too, as are you. It is how the ECO potentially looks at these things. That is the big unanswered question. But, the way you put it is certainly something that may find itself in our cover letters ;-)

My g/f has sole responsibility following the annulment.

if you both want her here, then apply for her, if they refuse her, you should have a right to appeal, and if you've got good evidence, (financial/accommodation/relationship) then you will most likely win that appeal

pros and cons of doing either of them, but for me doing it ASAP is usually the way to go

[Ady]

I think, personally, it is better to apply for her daughter. She is just 10 years old, 11 in April, and that is when they start Comprehensive in September. It would be easier for her to settle into a new school when all the other kids are also settling in.

Like you said, pros and cons to both scenarios, but her daughter is just 10 - we both (myself and the daughter) get along like a house on fire, and we would be applying for longer term settlement following the marriage anyhow.

Thanks guys - feels like we are almost ready to get all the things together and make the application now.

[joebloggs]

then she will be starting secondary school in sept next year, so that's another reason to get her here asap, so she starts secondary school when all the other 11yr olds start at that school , so she's not disadvantaged as much, if she joined later

[joebloggs]

Ady, it could be difficult to get your g/f's daughter a visa after looking at the requirements

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/cha...oint%20fifteen

these 2 are not what you want to see

there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which make the child's exclusion undesirable;

and

there is no other person outside the UK who could be reasonably expected to care for the child;

[Ady]

Hi Joe,

Am I misreading that? This comes under additional requirements. There is nobody there that can take care of her, so that is one requirement that we satisfy (if that is the correct term).

Maybe our interpretations of this are different?

But, thanks for the link - it is one of the things I was looking for. Maybe I will ask the immigration solicitor next week.

Ady

[PeterB]

I think that this sentence, in the following paragraph, covers your case and should give you cause for hope.
"In assessing whether there are serious and compelling considerations it would normally be undesirable to exclude a child who had largely been cared for by the "fiancé(e) / proposed civil partner parent"

[joebloggs]

Hi Joe,

Am I misreading that? This comes under additional requirements. There is nobody there that can take care of her, so that is one requirement that we satisfy (if that is the correct term).

Maybe our interpretations of this are different?

But, thanks for the link - it is one of the things I was looking for. Maybe I will ask the immigration solicitor next week.

Ady

sorry ady & peterb, i had only skimmed the text, it was 6am and i had to get to work


I'm surprised and a bit , that they have these additional requirements for a dependant child who is under 18

these types of requirements are similar to those for a dependant child who is over 18, or for bringing your retired parent to the uk.

with good evidence, i still think you would get it. what do they expect your g/f not to see her daughter for 9 months or so

your seeing a solicitor ? try your local law centre, they give free advice

[Ady]

No problems Joe! And, in fact, the link you provided was a huge help. I read your message at 7am (before I was going off to work) and it was a scary start to a day haha... but seriously those requirements are expected. I am grateful that someone found those details at 6am - and your effort and help is greatly appreciated. There is an immigration advisory service in Cardiff, and I will pop there for some advice about it. I will let you know what they say - it may help someone else in the future too.

Thanks Pete and Joe.

[keithAngel]

Just read this thread Ady and my two penneth is absolutely that you should apply for both , its important emotionally for her daughter and as you have said you wont marry her in the Phills, which would remove that issue It ,for me would mean entering the process with immigration recognising that it may take a bit more effort which also demonstrates your commitment

[joebloggs]

but seriously those requirements are expected.

years ago, when i spoke to a immigration solicitor, when i was after advice about my stepson, he told me, whatever happens visa wise to his mom, has to happen to my stepson, in this case it's not thou, these additional conditions on a under 18yr old dependant are disgusting.

there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which make the child's exclusion undesirable; -

like peterb said, "In assessing whether there are serious and compelling considerations it would normally be undesirable to exclude a child who had largely been cared for by the "fiancé(e) / proposed civil partner parent"- mentioning her daughter is only cared for by her mother and no one else, never been left with anyone else, doesn't and has not had contact with her father for many years? ,leaving her behind for 9 months could put her well being at risk so it is not an option.


there is no other person outside the UK who could be reasonably expected to care for the child;

as it doesn't define who this 'person' is or can be .. for some other types of visa's they define a close relative as...

Defining close relatives
Close relations may be sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, grandchildren, uncles, aunts and possibly nephews, nieces or in-laws. However, it should be stated that this will vary with the local culture. For example, in the sub-continent married women may be unable to provide support. Alternatively, if there are a number of close relatives there is no reason why there cannot be a collective ability to support the applicant.

The application of a couple who have no other close relatives should not be refused solely on the grounds that they have each other to turn to.

Enquiries and evidence
A Tribunal has taken the view that a decision to refuse an entry clearance on the basis that the applicant has close relatives to turn to in his or her own country is sustainable only if proper enquiries into the circumstances have been carried out and sound evidence has been obtained. It is therefore vital that any decision to refuse on that basis can be backed up with evidence which is as comprehensive as possible.

In cases where an applicant claims without supporting evidence that no relative is willing or able to provide support or where there is a conflict of evidence, the ECO will need to consider whether there are any ways of seeking evidence elsewhere. In certain cases it may be necessary to defer the application for an interview of the sponsor in the UK to corroborate the claims made by the applicant.

i stress this is for dependant visa for someone over 18. but it gives you an idea of what they are looking for, for other types of visas. but getting a signed letter from say your g/f's mom or other relatives stating they have no emotional bond with her daughter, they are too far way from where she lives, they cannot afford to support her, etc.. may help... i'm sure they don't or can not consider that you can leave your 10yr old girl with a uncle or other relative who is doesn't really know.

may be i'm over reacting to these extra requirements, and her visa app would be straight forward like her moms, and like we expect it to be. but all the visa's i've applied for i got first time, and i try to provide all the evidence i can and minimize them from refusing the visa. more i look at it, the more stupid these extra requirements are on a under 18yr.

i hope the immigration advisory service can give you the right advise , but i would still apply for the visa, i really cannot believe they would refuse a 10yr old a visa to be with her mom

good luck

[Ady]

Thanks KeithAngel and thanks again Joe.

Joe, those rules for over 18's are crazy. My flabber is gasted that these requirements are needed for young adults. This is very useful information again, of course we will apply for her daughter. I will think of a way to phrase things in the cover letter (the cover letter is the only real opportunity for me to make my case) and show that the daughter's care is at the forefront of our minds. It is a good idea to maybe get some sort of letter from my gf's parents. However, what sort of person would have issues about a young daughter flying to the UK with her mother? Well, we probably all know the answer to that one .

We had a visit visa refused 2 years ago, and I think that we have learnt a lot from our initial naivety. That is why I am picking through all the details of all the application. I will probably be the same as you in including a lot more information than is actually required for this application. Better to be safe than sorry as they say.

[quickwillow]

Any more news on your application,
Did you get provisional approval from a school? As I have thought about this for evidence to prove that I’m taking my future son’s welfare in to consideration.
The other thing I was going to do was get a certificate of no impediment, to strengthen my evidence but still plan to marry in the UK what do you think?

[quickwillow]

I’m soon to start the process for a fiancée visa she also has a son just turned 5 yrs old and have found this thread quite helpful, I have been worried about which path to take and what would be best and quickest for a successful application.
In my mind it would be far better for my fiancée to adjust to living in the UK with her son by her side, and not have to go through the emotional trauma of leaving him behind. It also goes without saying what this would do to her son, as they have never been apart before.
This has been a bit of a moral dilemma for me as I feel I already know what would be best for the kid, but have been worried about trying to satisfy what the ECO want.
Maybe I should mention I work in social services but with adults with learning difficulties, and have seen the emotional damage that family separation does to both parties. As the government’s policies in care tend to be to keep the family unit together, I would hope the ECO would be sensitive this also.

[joebloggs]

if you have accommodation for them both without overcrowding and you have finances to support them without the need for 'recourse to public funds' then your only problem left is that of 'sole responsibility'

is the father named on the birth cert?, does the child still see his father?, is the child's mother still in talking terms with the father?..

it's better if you bring them both together, as you have already said, they have never been apart.

[trader dave]

very interesting for me also as my fiancee has a 3yr old son [father done a runner as soon as the seed was planted so father unknown on his birth cert]when we applied before for a tourist visa her refusal stated that a child IS NO PROVE THAT YOU INTENT to return to the philippines so we are getting married first in the philippines get her to the uk first then we will cross the next step and bearing in mind i will be retiring to the phils in the next 2-7 years take things as they come.

[quickwillow]

I have the accomodation and finances, but I'm not sure about the birth certificate but I will would imagine he's on there, but will check, and no he has only seen the father 1 time when he was about a yr old, I'm kind of hoping this would have been addressed in the annulment process, as the father has never given them support and this was part of the grounds for annulment. I need to ask a few more questions

[quickwillow]

hi dave

I think I can see why you were refused if you were trying for a tourist visa, maybe now your getting married it would be different ?

[joebloggs]

hi dave

I think I can see why you were refused if you were trying for a tourist visa, maybe now your getting married it would be different ?

most tourist visa's are refused, and in many cases it's seems to be at random, people have had a job, money and property in the phils but are still refused, while some people have had nothing and been granted

so it's a bit of pot luck if you get one, thou if you apply for a family member and its refused you will have the right to appeal, and then you have a fairly good chance it will be granted at IAT hearing.

if there has been not contact with the father recently and the mother looks after the child then you shouldn't have a problem really with 'sole responsibility' and if the father is not named on the child's birth cert then your chances increase even further of getting a visa.

last thing the embassy want is to be pig in the middle btw 2 parents of a child, one who wants to take the child to the UK and the other doesn't ( for what ever reasons - sometimes jealously,wants some pay off -php )

just prepare your visa apps with what your asked and make your evidence as good as possible and you shouldn't have a problem