Hi everyone

[Sim11UK]

Hi again quickwillow, sorry to hear you are having a frustrating time with the annulment.
Many of us here, seem to have to go through all sorts of hardships to get the end result we want.
It just goes to show that if you want something badly enough, then anything is acheivable, usually though, with a lot of complications along the way.
You said surrendering wasn't an option, so good for you...Hang in there.

I hear your girlfriend isn't far away from Cagayan de Oro?

[Arthur Little]

Hello Mark, and a belated welcome to the forum. My own situation was a bit different from yours as my wife and I had both been widowed. However, I'm glad to see you've had loads of helpful replies from other members who are much better qualified than me to give you the advice you need.

So stick around, mate and the best of luck to you.

Arthur

[quickwillow]

Thanks Sim,

for the encouragment yes my fiancée lived near Ilagan for a while with grandparents after being robbed in Ozamis at gunpoint but has since moved back to Ozamis only for it to happen again about a yr later with her sister. We have known each other for about 3 yrs now and are deeply in love with each other.
I will be going back in August to see her and son and hoping to apply for visas but even is this is not possible we will probably go to Cebu then Bohol and on to the island of Panglao as we had a great time there. Sim have you been or do you know anything about Camiguin Island?

Never
cheers Mark

[quickwillow]

Thanks Arthur,
Everyone’s been great here, I'm happy to have found this forum and always interested in other peoples situations and experiences.
cheers mate

[Sim11UK]

Thanks Sim,

for the encouragment yes my fiancée lived near Ilagan for a while with grandparents after being robbed in Ozamis at gunpoint but has since moved back to Ozamis only for it to happen again about a yr later with her sister. We have known each other for about 3 yrs now and are deeply in love with each other.
I will be going back in August to see her and son and hoping to apply for visas but even is this is not possible we will probably go to Cebu then Bohol and on to the island of Panglao as we had a great time there. Sim have you been or do you know anything about Camiguin Island?

Never
cheers Mark

OMG! What a terrible experience.

I'm sure everyone would be interested to hear your story sometime.

I've been to Panglao Island & yes I've been to Camiguin Island...Really loved Camiguin, had a really nice relaxing time...Would love to go again sometime.
We stayed at a resort called Golden Sunset. Can't remember how much it cost to stay, but it was reasonable. Quite basic rooms, but ok, nice friendly people too. There is a video of it on youtube...You can see White Island from here. (There is a picture of me there, in my album on my profile haha!) You've gotta go there.
Also swam in Ardent hot springs, heated by the volcano Mt. Hibok Hibok.

Definately worth a trip, for a few days.

Simon

[quickwillow]

Sounds great Simon, I think I will ask you more about Camiguin closer the time, but will check your pics and take a look on youtube thanks Mark

[Jay&Zobel]

Quickwillow welcome... lots of help & advices you can find here...

[IainBusby]

Yeah makes me sick too they already live very comfortably there, as far a how many people know a whitey is involved it’s just the attorney. I think he was playing the nice guy when he said it was better not to say I was involved or just greedy, anyway I don't trust them in the Philippines or here.
Can I ask you Iain how long after the annulment decision was made did you wait to receive the paper work, I read after 15 days but the judge said 3 months what do you think? What should we expect to receive and were the your kids mentioned on this as to who has custody?

We didn't go down the annulment route, we opted for presumptive death instead because it's much faster and much cheaper than annulment. My wife's was all done and dusted in about 7 months and cost about £1200, plus 2 or 3 additional payments of about P5000 that her attorney dreamed up along the way.

Even when the whole legal process was complete, we still had to pay another bung, about P2,500, to get the clerk of the court to release the papers.

As far as kids are concerned, I don't think that they or their custody plays any part in a Philippines annulment.

Iain.

[joebloggs]

What is the general rule as to custody over children?

The general rule is that a child under seven years of age shall not be separated from his mother, which is based on the basic need of a child for his mother’s loving care. Article 213 of the Family Code provides that “[n]o child under seven years of age shall be separated from the mother, unless the court finds compelling reasons to order otherwise.” This is more pronounced in case of illegitimate children, as the law expressly provides that illegitimate children shall be under the parental authority of their mother.

Is this rule absolute?

This rule is not absolute. Even a mother may be deprived of the custody of her child who is below seven years of age for “compelling reasons.” Instances of unsuitability are neglect, abandonment, unemployment and immorality, habitual drunkenness, drug addiction, maltreatment of the child, insanity, and affliction with a communicable illness. Negligent and careless failure to perform the duties of parenthood is a significant element of abandonment, regardless of actual intention. A strong basis for a finding of the parent’s abandonment of his or her child is found in the case where the parent has left the child permanently or indefinitely in the care of others, given it to another, or surrendered it entirely.

custody and 'sole responsibility' are not always the same thing, you can have custody of a child but the British embassy might say you don't have 'sole responsibility' for example the mother might have custody but work, say in H/K and the child is looked after by the father, her mother or sister, if so its possible that the embassy might say the mother doesn't have 'sole responsibility'.

but really the only problem people face, is, if the child still lives with the father or has a lot of contact with the father (i suppose with his approval their shouldn't be a problem) or if the mother works in another country and the child has been looked after by someone else for a long time. but even then i would have thought most of these cases could be won on appeal.

so in most cases there shouldn't be a problem with 'sole responsibility'

[PAT]

Hello,welcome to the forum...!

[edelacruz]

Hi everyone,
I've just found this great site and have been looking around for some of the answers to my questions, but keep going off in all directions.
So far I've found it helpful as my fiancée has just had an annulment. We plan to marry later in the year, but need to ask some advice as she has a son and we want to know if he can come here(UK) when we apply for a fiancée visa but for now I will keep lookin

welcome, hope you will find some more info's soon! goodluck..

[quickwillow]

We didn't go down the annulment route, we opted for presumptive death instead because it's much faster and much cheaper than annulment. My wife's was all done and dusted in about 7 months and cost about £1200, plus 2 or 3 additional payments of about P5000 that her attorney dreamed up along the way.

Even when the whole legal process was complete, we still had to pay another bung, about P2,500, to get the clerk of the court to release the papers.

As far as kids are concerned, I don't think that they or their custody plays any part in a Philippines annulment.

Iain.

The first Attn. had £700 for filing the case arranging and paying for the psychology report and the newspaper adds for 3 weeks and 1 or 2 more appearances in court. We were then said to wait for another court date, which never happened. The second Attn. has manage to sort everything out, I must say quite quickly for £550, but still don’t actually have the papers. I’m sure like you there will be more charges before they are in our hands. Although the time scale has been longer than yours, part of this I believe is a 6-month cooling off period from filing the case to proceeding, which from my understanding is to give the couple time to change there mind. When I first started looking into this I was told about £ 1800 and if I was lucky about 9-12 months. It has taken 14 months for the decision, and we are now playing a waiting game for the papers until the 12 May.

[quickwillow]

What is the general rule as to custody over children?

The general rule is that a child under seven years of age shall not be separated from his mother, which is based on the basic need of a child for his mother’s loving care. Article 213 of the Family Code provides that “[n]o child under seven years of age shall be separated from the mother, unless the court finds compelling reasons to order otherwise.” This is more pronounced in case of illegitimate children, as the law expressly provides that illegitimate children shall be under the parental authority of their mother.

Is this rule absolute?

This rule is not absolute. Even a mother may be deprived of the custody of her child who is below seven years of age for “compelling reasons.” Instances of unsuitability are neglect, abandonment, unemployment and immorality, habitual drunkenness, drug addiction, maltreatment of the child, insanity, and affliction with a communicable illness. Negligent and careless failure to perform the duties of parenthood is a significant element of abandonment, regardless of actual intention. A strong basis for a finding of the parent’s abandonment of his or her child is found in the case where the parent has left the child permanently or indefinitely in the care of others, given it to another, or surrendered it entirely.

custody and 'sole responsibility' are not always the same thing, you can have custody of a child but the British embassy might say you don't have 'sole responsibility' for example the mother might have custody but work, say in H/K and the child is looked after by the father, her mother or sister, if so its possible that the embassy might say the mother doesn't have 'sole responsibility'.

but really the only problem people face, is, if the child still lives with the father or has a lot of contact with the father (i suppose with his approval their shouldn't be a problem) or if the mother works in another country and the child has been looked after by someone else for a long time. but even then i would have thought most of these cases could be won on appeal.

so in most cases there shouldn't be a problem with 'sole responsibility'

Thanks again Joe this has put my mind to rest, I must admit I’ve been stressed recently, and just trying to make a watertight case and getting as much facts and info as I can.
You all have been welcoming and really helpful.
Mark

[IainBusby]

The first Attn. had £700 for filing the case arranging and paying for the psychology report and the newspaper adds for 3 weeks and 1 or 2 more appearances in court. We were then said to wait for another court date, which never happened. The second Attn. has manage to sort everything out, I must say quite quickly for £550, but still don’t actually have the papers. I’m sure like you there will be more charges before they are in our hands. Although the time scale has been longer than yours, part of this I believe is a 6-month cooling off period from filing the case to proceeding, which from my understanding is to give the couple time to change there mind. When I first started looking into this I was told about £ 1800 and if I was lucky about 9-12 months. It has taken 14 months for the decision, and we are now playing a waiting game for the papers until the 12 May.

Hi Mark,
I'm not saying that your situation will be the same as ours, but when we went through this sort of thing, at this stage the attorney was the main problem, saying that the judge is not happy to release the papers yet and he thinks there maybe other procedures to go through etc, bull. He kept on saying that he would try to see the judge and see if he could sort it out, while we played our part by stupidly increasing the amount we were prepared to pay. After a while we got p off with this, so my wife started going to the courthouse every day and hassling the clerk of the court directly about it.

It is usual for the clerk of the court to accept the bribes on behalf of the judge, with a cut for himself of course, so the judge doesn't have to get openly involved. The problem with the attorney's is that at this stage, they want to be the ones who are doing the negotiating as this is the only way they can insure that they will get a big cut of however much they can squeeze out of you to get it completed.

As I said, in the end my wife started to go directly to the courthouse and eventually managed to get the papers released after about a week of hassling the clerk of the court..... and of course, paying the bung, which was no where near as much as the sort of figures the attorney was suggesting we might have to pay.
Iain.

[Florge]

Hi Mark,
Welcome to the forum. You can be almost certain that there will be another charge. Don't be surprised if you fiancee hears nothing from the court or her attorney because they will want her to think there is a holdup and when she does eventually contact them, they will say their has been a problem and she'll have to pay for some other ficticious administrative procedure or other. I think you'll find that when it comes to the end game, that she is not only fighting the court, but also the greed of her own attorney who will also be scamming her and they are usually quite practised at this sort of thing when they know that a foreigner is involved. In fact in some cases, it is not even the judge but only her own attorney who is holding out for another bung.

The best way to deal with this is to tell them that what ever amount of money they are asking for will only be paid when the paperwork is handed over. If you do this then their greed will get the better of them. Otherwise something else will come up and another payment will be asked for.

Iain.

This is exactly the reason why I suggest that you go for an attorney or law firm that offers a "package" or "all-in" deal... with all the admin charges in one amount... my lawyer friend offers 100k for everything... including filing fees, psychological tests, lawyers fees.. everything...

QWillow, congrats by the way for the annulment and the engagement... woohooo... all's well that end's well...

[IainBusby]

This is exactly the reason why I suggest that you go for an attorney or law firm that offers a "package" or "all-in" deal... with all the admin charges in one amount... my lawyer friend offers 100k for everything... including filing fees, psychological tests, lawyers fees.. everything...

QWillow, congrats by the way for the annulment and the engagement... woohooo... all's well that end's well...

That's what we did and the attorney quoted us P120,000, P60,000 up front and another P60,000 after the final court hearing which we assumed was the end of the whole process. If we had known exactly how things work in Phils, we would have insisted that the final installment should be paid after everything was complete and all paperwork handed over. The other thing is that most of these attorneys are men and Filipinas seem to be afraid to stand up and argue or be confrontational in any way when it comes to dealing with Filipino men.

Unfortunately quite a lot of the legal processes and contact between client and attorney happen when the bf/fiancee is back in the Uk somwhere and if the attorney says that an extra payment is required for some ficticious reason, then the Filipina involved is unlikely to argue and just find the money herself from somewhere. I should say that these extra payments only amounted to P5,000, P,5000 and P3,000 and my wife didn't tell me about them at the time because she new I'd go crazy about it, she just scrimped money from her own earnings and from the allowance I was sending her each month.

Luckily by the time it got round to end game, I was there in Phils, otherwise I'm sure we would have have stitched up even more to get things completed.

Iain.

[quickwillow]

This is exactly the reason why I suggest that you go for an attorney or law firm that offers a "package" or "all-in" deal... with all the admin charges in one amount... my lawyer friend offers 100k for everything... including filing fees, psychological tests, lawyers fees.. everything...

QWillow, congrats by the way for the annulment and the engagement... woohooo... all's well that end's well...

These were supposed to be all in package type deals, but after the first Attn. I'm not so sure there is such a thing. As for the 2nd one I have no reasons to not trust him ( other than i didn't trust the first) as he has done everything he said he would for his fee ..... well so far
But I do suspect like Iain he’s not going to just hand over the papers.

Iain I like this idea about bypassing the attn. and going straight to the clerk of the court