He Is Dead

[Piamed]

Hi Piamed.

Leave the religious brow-beating out of threads and we will get on well.
The point is non-believers don't want to debate.

Richard Lederer: There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.

Enjoy your beautiful baby girl......

Hey Aposhark. I never try to brow beat on any plane. I responded initially to your statement that believing in God is nonsense. Any statement made which begs rational challenging will inevitably be debated.

Please note for the record that religion, Christianity and Catholicism are not synonymous. I think your view that non-believers do not like to debate raises quite a number of questions about how you see things and not about non-believers per se. I presume there is a purpose to you citing the particular individuals you have cited but I fail to see the relevance. Anyway, suffice to say that you have your views as do others. My initial point remains that we should all be respectful in the truest sense irrespective of our own positions in life. That should resonate with good people from opposing ideas of the religious divide.

I wish you a great journey back with your missus; I remember our journey back like it was yesterday albeit that much has happened since then.

[aposhark]

......I wish you a great journey back with your missus; I remember our journey back like it was yesterday albeit that much has happened since then.

Sorry, religious debate is never-ending so no more for me.....

Thanks for the comment about wishing us a great journey back.
For us, the journey is only just beginning :-)

[fred]

Sorry, religious debate is never-ending so no more for me.....

Wise words...Unfortunately,you went back on them..
And now look....

[aromulus]

My final contributions on this topic are founded

 
upon a reiteration of my assertion that love and respect should be maintained by ALL parties when discussing. Obviously, we all have differing interpretaions of what that means in practice and how they ought to be applied, so further elucidation would be redundant.
 
We are all entitled to our own theories of knowledge but it is difficult to debate when one's views are in opposition to those of any individual that postulates dismissively and with a conviction explicitly founded upon oxymora and propositions the veracity of which, are in my view, at best doubtful. 
 
Further, the definitions of qualitative and empirical 'proof' or 'evidence' are not as simple as some might believe; rather they are expansive and much broader than we can accomodate in this thread!

Eh.......???

It's a great day; I'm now gonna cuddle my wife and baby.

Make the most of it, mate.
Babies have the most akward knack in growing rather fast, and if you blink you may miss the best bits....

Peace to all

!

And to you and family

[Piamed]

And to you and family

Hi Dom. Sorry, i was trying to explain myself better but failed You are right, my most treasured moments are spent with my wife and baby, who has just made a mess while Pia was changing her

[Pepe n Pilar]

This is indeed a neverending debate. But.....even if you believe in science rather than God - science would have us believe in parallel universes and alien societies out there that may be a billion years ahead of us. Who is to say that one of them is not God? Personally, I find it just as easy to believe in God as to believe in multiverses and string theory. Neither can be proved one way or the other.

Peace to All!!!!....

[aposhark]

This is indeed a neverending debate. But.....even if you believe in science rather than God - science would have us believe in parallel universes and alien societies out there that may be a billion years ahead of us. Who is to say that one of them is not God? Personally, I find it just as easy to believe in God as to believe in multiverses and string theory. Neither can be proved one way or the other.

Peace to All!!!!....

Parallel Universes and String Theory, way hey, now there's an easy subject to discuss......

[KeithD]

This is indeed a neverending debate.

I love a massdebate!

[Pepe n Pilar]

I love a massdebate!

[Sconnie]

May your God go with you :-)

[Happy_Now]

May your God go with you :-)

"thank you"

[Pepe n Pilar]

Dear Happy_Now, you don't have to take it seriously. It is not directed to you. This is just a discussion about the thread you just started. We just have to accept that life in this world is full of excitements or else it would be boring...

Think of it as if you're in a classroom. Students are free to share their views whenever a topic is opened or started by the teacher/instructor.

You should be glad many got interested and shared their views.

Cheers to All!

[Happy_Now]

it is not only whom you hurt. God is hurting! Cryin for your souls

[Pepe n Pilar]

it is not only whom you hurt. God is hurting! Cryin for your souls

Read the posts by the members Happy_Now. They have different views about religion. You have to accept that, don't be sad.

I also refrain from talking about that subject. I'm used to be with people of different views in life, belong to different religions. (people are different) iba iba ang tao. My best friend when i was in High School is an INC but we get along well. I have friends who belong to diff denominations. We don't talk about religion.

If you want a topic about Religion then you have to be strong enough to face different views. Have you thought of that?
That is a very sensitive topic.

I just reply if it is asked.

Don't want to elaborate more.

Cheers!

[aposhark]

See what this religion thing does?

Is it devisive or not? If it is devisive, then don't mention it, it is best forgotten.

Religion, football and politics, bah.

Look, There's no god and Everton are the best team in England.

You see, nobody has EVER shown anyone any proof of a God or a Jesus, and, Everton have won more European Cups that Liverpool AND United combined.

AND all the politicians are decent honourable men and women who only want to TRULY serve the people, as they were elected to do so.

Now, you KNOW I am right..........

[Eljohno]

See i now know how far of the mark you are as Everton are not even the best team in Liverpool.

1/ Liverpool
2/ Tranmere
3/Acc Stanley
4/ Toffees

hehe

[Happy_Now]

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Eljohno]

I know this thread could take many turns with some getting annoyed so just let us agree the following;

Christians believe in Jesus the son of God and everything that comes with it....

Atheists do not believe in God (The short version)

The end....

[scott&ligaya]

ditto John

I suggest that the mods close this thread as it just causing unnecessary tensions within this membership. This is a great site with very helpful and friendly members and mods

[aposhark]

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain

http://atheistempire.com/reference/religion/bible.php

[Pepe n Pilar]

This is the end of this topic as what Eljohno said..

Coffee or tea.... anyone?

[scott&ligaya]

milk and one sugar in my tea please!

[Sconnie]

tea for me please.

"time for bed" says zebidee

Night night everyone

[Piamed]

The minutiae you want to avoid are only the facts missing from your rhetoric.

Metaphorically and speaking in jest:

A toothless lion will try to prevent prey it cannot defend being taken, by roaring loudly in the hope that might deter its competition without having to engage them directly and revealing it actually had no teeth!
Piamed 05:05, 14th April, 2009 (I know you like citations)

I have no more to add; this is my long overdue exit point. I think enough has been teased out of this thread for fellow forumers and visitors to make of it what they will.

All the best as you prepare for your loved one's arrival!!!!

[aposhark]

I know you like citations.

Yes, but even better are the pearls of wisdom from the bible:

What does the Bible Say About...?

GOD
"..the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts."
..........Isaiah 3:17
"I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."
..........Ezekiel 32:5
"I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rend them."
..........Hosea 13:8
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
..........Malachi 2:3
"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
..........Ezekiel 9:5
"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15
"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken."
..........Ezekiel 5:10, 5:17
"And I will fill your mountains with the slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall...Then you shall know that I am the Lord."
..........Ezekiel 35:8
"...I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things."
..........Isaiah 45:7

JESUS
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...."
..........Matthew 10:34
"'But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"
..........Luke 19:27
(parable) "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
..........John 15:6
"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
..........Matthew 13:49
"And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one."
..........Luke 22:36
"Do you think I have to come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother- in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in- law.
..........Luke 12:51
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him."
.........John 3:36
"And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating."
..........Luke 12:47
"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
..........Luke 14:26

SLAVERY
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
..........Exodus 21:20
"Let all who are under the yoke slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those that benefit by their service are believers and beloved."
..........1 Timothy 6:1
"If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
"Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes...."
..........Luke 12:37
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness."
..........Leviticus 25:44
"Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
..........Leviticus 25:45-46
"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect..."
..........Titus 2:9
"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...."
..........Ephesians 6:5

WOMEN
"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..."
..........Deuteronomy 22:20"
...they have rejected the word of the Lord, and what wisdom is in them? Therefore I will give their wives to others..."
..........Jeremiah 8:9
"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire will be for your husband."
..........Genesis 3:16
"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..."
..........1 Corinthians 7:4
"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man."
..........1 Corinthians, 11:8
"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord."
..........Ephesians 5:22
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
..........1 Corinthians 7:1
"...the Lord has trodden as in a wine press the virgin daughter of Judah."
..........Lamentations 1:
"Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..."
..........Zechariah 14:1
"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun."
..........2 Samuel 12:11
"Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives..."
..........Romans 7:2
"Likewise, you wives, be submissive to your husbands..."
..........1 Peter 3:1
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
..........1 Corinthians 14:34
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
..........Timothy 2:11
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem..."
..........2 Samuel 5:13

PERVERSION
"When men fight with one another, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity."
..........Deuteronomy 25:11
"Behold, I am against you, says the Lord of hosts, and will lift up your skirts over your face; and I will let nations look on your nakedness and kingdoms on your shame."
..........Nahum 3:5
"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord."
..........Deuteronomy 23:1
"...she played the harlot in the land of Egypt and doted upon her paramours there, whose members were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses."
..........Ezekiel 23:19
"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, remove the foreskin of your hearts..."
..........Jeremiah 4:4
"Any animal which has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut, you shall not offer to the Lord or sacrifice within your land..."
..........Leviticus 22:24
"David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines; and David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law."
..........1 Samuel 18:27
"Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?"
..........Romans 2:25
"...so when he went into his brother"s wife he spilled the semen on the ground...And what he did (spilling his semen) was displeasing in the sight of the Lord and He slew him also."
..........Genesis 38:9
"Bless, O Lord, his substance, and accept the work of his hands; crush the loins of his adversaries..."
..........Deuteronomy 33:11

[Piamed]

Out of 31,103 verses you have chosen these. Are you trying to make a particular point? Why did you use the New American Standard Bible Version? I'm just interested.

[Pepe n Pilar]

To Aposhark,

The argument that you cannot support your wife because you do not agree with her religious views is crazy. That is almost like saying that your wife would not support you because you like watching football and she doesn't. If that was the case there would be very few couples in the UK still together. :-) In any case it is variety, and the differences between people, that makes them interesting and often what attracts us to someone in the first place.
Vive la difference!

[Piamed]

To Aposhark,

The argument that you cannot support your wife because you do not agree with her religious views is crazy. That is almost like saying that your wife would not support you because you like watching football and she doesn't. If that was the case there would be very few couples in the UK still together. :-) In any case it is variety, and the differences between people, that makes them interesting and often what attracts us to someone in the first place.
Vive la difference!

Although I do not agree that it would be crazy as you put it, it would certainly be a misguided suggestion that one cannot support another in something that one did not believe in. Who do you believe put forward that argument? I've looked but cannot find it in this thread. Certainly, I never suggested thatsuggest that. My points related to Aposhark and his manner, etc. specifically. I deconstructed my queries in a particular way and raised some relevant issues which the honourable gentleman shied away from.

Likening a football interest to a lifestyle and in many cases a fundamental determminant of the essential them is perhaps not the most useful analogy. Clearly, variety is the spice of life etc etc. I agree with you totally. No intelligent person would challenge that on a general basis.

Being a Christian is about striving and is an ongoing struggle to be increasingly Christ-like. Being a Christian is not an absolute end-point as some seem to suggest. Because of that, Christians will always by definition be imperfect, just like everone else. Christianity is fundamentally about establishing and maintaining a relationship with God. There area variety of reasons that people attend church services.

The remnants of more traditional churches which tend to be steeped in tradition and rituals and are less scripture-led, are in decline but as stated before the Charismatic denominations that encourage bible-reading and understanding and a personal relationship with God and are more current, contemporary and engaging of the youth are on the up globally. London is a great example. It's difficult to address particular points by some unbelievers as it seems that the points raised are sometimes aimed at the wrong targets and without the understanding of the clearly discernable differences between Catholicism, Religion and Christianity.

It is true that some Christians are unfamiliar with the word of God. Much of that is historical. We could all do more in that regard. Many people should attend church as they can share the word of God and learn a great deal from their peers and often it is the one place where they can receive spiritual nourishment or indoctrination as some unbelievers may perceive it.

I think it's fine that Aposhark, I and others have differing opinions; as far as I'm concerned it does not detract from our friendship. That people can disagree on issues important to them helps develop relationships, e.g. marriage. Some of my good friends are devoutly-Islamic Arabians; I have on occasion found I have more in common with them than athiesits and many Christians. So long as true respect is given by all concerned we can overcome all things.

I as always, wish everyone the best and for one, have found all comments/responses really interesting whether I agree with them or not.

Peace to all as always!!!!

[joebloggs]

Likening a football interest to a lifestyle and in many cases a fundamental determminant of the essential them is perhaps not the most useful analogy.

i see your point, but how many people are dedicated to their religion, for many ticket holders football is their life, look how many fans go across Europe to watch a match and come straight back.

[Piamed]

i see your point, but how many people are dedicated to their religion, for many ticket holders football is their life, look how many fans go across Europe to watch a match and come straight back.

Noted Joe but football cannot define who an individual is and provide them a set of moral codes that help them contribute positively to society, raise their families and give them a divine source of conflict resolution.