It is a complete waste of time arguing over whether God exists or not, as we have no scientific proof either way.
The balance of probabilities are massively in favour of it being a 'Does not exist', but nevertheless not one shred of evidence either way.
And as I said, a believer in God holds a belief, a person who believes in no God, holds a belief. So both are believers.
Keith - Administrator
Amen to that...............Originally Posted by Win2Win
I'm still rooting for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He/She/It/They talks to me and tells me I mustn't pay my council tax or ever put the toilet seat down or I will be doomed to Spaghetti-Hell.
Hold on... Think that's the bailiffs at the door.
Hope Judy doesn't see this...
SJ
Some have suggested that historical data is unreliable, saying 2000 years is a long time. 2000 years is a long time, yet we don’t question the historical evidence of several other ancient personalities:
Cleopatra 69-30 BC
Julius Caesar 100-44 BC
Alexander the Great 356-323 BC
Aristotle 384-322 BC
Socrates 469-399 BC
Confucius 551-479 BC
The effect Jesus had on the world greatly surpasses that of anyone else in history.
Some try to argue that if Jesus ever existed then there would be much more historicl data, writings, etc. AS you may know, most records in the day were Roman or Greek. Jesus never addressed the Senate, he was margininalised and criminalised and received the most demeaning and vile punishment - crucifixtion. Jesus never travelled much also.
Significant historical data exists over Jesus' existence. Of course written by observers of the day. THIs is an attempt to highlight some proof Jesus existed. Can anyone provide at least even a tiny amount of proof that Jesus never existed? It will never happen as the naysayers cannot provide any data to support any of their attacks. All they can say is, "it was a long time ago and I don't think it's reliable". Yet they accept more scant evidence about people with less historical impact from an age long beore Jesus.
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
Where is the proof?
Keith - Administrator
Im sure if God exists he believes in me
Absit invidia
DISCLAIMER: The information hereinabove may or may not be entirely accurate, relevant, forthright, verifiable, or coherent. KeithAngel, who shall herein be refered to as the 'Shining Beacon of Light', reserves the right to neither confirm, deny, justify, explain, or otherwise acknowledge any inquiry in regards to the validity, genuinity, construction, intent, and/or motive of any statements, gestures, and/or actions whether real, imagined, or transdimensional in origin. Further, the 'Shining Beacon of Light' shall be absolved of any and all legal, moral, and financial responsibilities for damages to life, limb, character, reputation, property, and/or business resulting from the usage, assimilation, incorporation, replication, and/or distribution of said statements whether partial, complete, misquoted, or imagined. This disclaimer remains in effect despite any discrepancies or claims as to its legibility, comprehension, interpretation, subliminal suggestiveness, political affiliation, legality, visibility, and/or physical presence
With a name like KEITH, I'm sure he doesIm sure if God exists he believes in me
Keith - Administrator
While your here on the question of soap??With a name like KEITH, I'm sure he does
Absit invidia
DISCLAIMER: The information hereinabove may or may not be entirely accurate, relevant, forthright, verifiable, or coherent. KeithAngel, who shall herein be refered to as the 'Shining Beacon of Light', reserves the right to neither confirm, deny, justify, explain, or otherwise acknowledge any inquiry in regards to the validity, genuinity, construction, intent, and/or motive of any statements, gestures, and/or actions whether real, imagined, or transdimensional in origin. Further, the 'Shining Beacon of Light' shall be absolved of any and all legal, moral, and financial responsibilities for damages to life, limb, character, reputation, property, and/or business resulting from the usage, assimilation, incorporation, replication, and/or distribution of said statements whether partial, complete, misquoted, or imagined. This disclaimer remains in effect despite any discrepancies or claims as to its legibility, comprehension, interpretation, subliminal suggestiveness, political affiliation, legality, visibility, and/or physical presence
Jesus Christ, is the central figure of Christianity and is revered by most Christian churches as the Son of God and the incarnation of God. Islam considers Jesus a prophet, and he is an important figure in several other religions.
Scholars have used the historical method to develop probable reconstructions of Jesus' life. A great majority of biblical scholars and historians accept the historical existence of Jesus.
Historians generally describe Jesus as a healer who preached the restoration of God's kingdom. Most historians agree he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified by the Romans. Jewish and Roman authorities in Jerusalem were wary of Galilean patriots, many of whom advocated or launched violent resistance to Roman rule. Jesus, a charismatic leader regarded as a potential troublemaker, was executed on political charges.
Some Proof sources of Jesus' existence follow. Where are the proof sources He did not exist?
D. A. Carson, Douglas J. Moo and Leon Morris. An Introduction to the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992, 54, 56
^ Michael Grant, Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Scribner's, 1977, p. 71; John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, Doubleday, 1991–, vol. 1:214; E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin Books, 1993, pp. 10–11, and Ben Witherington III, "Primary Sources," Christian History 17 (1998) No. 3:12–20.
^ a b Funk, Robert W. and the Jesus Seminar. The acts of Jesus: the search for the authentic deeds of Jesus. HarperSanFrancisco. 1998. Introduction, pp. 1–40
^ Amy-Jill Levine, The Oxford History of the Biblical World, New York, Oxford University Press, 1999, p. 371, Chapter 10: Visions of Kingdoms: From Pompey to the First Jewish Revolt (63 BCE – 70 CE), M. Coogan et al. (eds.)
^ a b c d Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993. "Introduction," p. 1–30.
^ a b c Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "The Historical Jesus" pp. 255–260
^ a b c d e Crossan, John Dominic. The essential Jesus. Edison: Castle Books. 1998.
^ Examples of authors who argue the Jesus myth hypothesis: Thomas L. Thompson The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Jonathan Cape, Publisher, 2006); Michael Martin, The Case Against Christianity (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1991), 36–72; John Mackinnon Robertson
^ Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. Carson, et al., pp. 50–56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, pp. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, HarperCollins, 1991, pp. xi – xiii; Michael Grant, pp. 34–35, 78, 166, 200; Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred B. Knopf, 1999, pp. 6–7, 105–110, 232–234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12–13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100–102, 222; Ben Witherington III, pp. 12–20.
^ Though many historians may have certain reservations about the use of the Gospels for writing history, "even the most hesitant, however, will concede that we are probably on safe historical footing" concerning certain basic facts about the life of Jesus; Jo Ann H. Moran Cruz and Richard Gerberding, Medieval Worlds: An Introduction to European History Houghton Mifflin Company 2004, pp. 44–45.
^ Irving, Amy-Jill (1999). "The Oxford History of the Biblical World". written at New York. Oxford University Press. 370–371; Chapter 10: Visions of Kingdoms: From Pompey to the First Jewish Revolt (63 BCE – 70 CE). http://books.google.ca/books?id=zFhv...sult#PPA370,M1.
^ For instance Raymond E. Brown in The Birth of the Messiah (ISBN 0-385-05405-X), p. 9
^ Friedmann, Robert (1953). "Antitrinitarianism". Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A597.html. Retrieved on 2008-06-08.
^ James Leslie Houlden, "Jesus: The Complete Guide", Continuum International Publishing Group, 2005, ISBN 082648011X
^ Prof. Dr. Şaban Ali Düzgün, "Uncovering Islam: Questions and Answers about Islamic Beliefs and Teachings", Ankara: The Presidency of Religious Affairs Publishing, 2004
^ Compendium of Muslim Texts
^ Notes to the New International Version Study Bible 2008, p. 288. ISBN 9780310939184
^ per The Catholic Encyclopedia[1]
^ Edwin D. Freed, Stories of Jesus' Birth, (Continuum International, 2004), page 119.
^ Geza Vermes, The Nativity: History and Legend, London, Penguin, 2006, page 22.
^ James D. G. Dunn, Jesus Remembered, Eerdmans Publishing (2003), page 324.
^ Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) pp. 1-2
^ Martin A. Larson, The Story of Christian Origins (1977), p. 186-9.
^ Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) p. 167
^ Howard Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and its readers, Indiana University Press, p. 13
^ Luke states that John's ministry began in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas.
^ Theissen, Gerd; Merz, Annette (1998), The historical Jesus : a comprehensive guide, Minneapolis: Fortress Press, pp. 64–72, ISBN 0800631226, http://books.google.com/books?id=3ZU...fox-a#PPA64,M1
^ Green, Joel B. (1997), The Gospel of Luke : new international commentary on the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., pp. 168, ISBN 0802823157, http://books.google.com/books?id=koY...ox-a#PPA168,M1
^ ""What the Old Testament Prophesied About the Messiah"". http://Christianity.com/Christian%20...esus/11541169/. Retrieved on 2007-10-11.
^ "synoptic". Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. 2nd ed. 1989.
^ a b c d e f g h i j Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985.
^ a b c d Ehrman, Bart D. Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why. HarperCollins, 2005. ISBN 978-0-06-073817-4
^ Durant, Will. Caesar and Christ. New York: Simon and Schuster. 1972
^ a b c d e f g h Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "John" pp. 302–310
^ Matthew 1:1–17
^ Luke 3:23–38
^ Joseph A. Fitzmyer, The Gospel According to Luke I–IX. Anchor Bible. Garden City: Doubleday, 1981, pp. 499–500; I. Howard Marshall, The Gospel of Luke (The New International Greek Testament Commentary). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978, p. 158;
^ Bienert, Wolfgang E. (2003). [9780664227210 "The Relatives of Jesus"]. in Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Robert McLachlan Wilson. New Testament Apocrypha: Gospels and Related Writings. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 487. 9780664227210.
^ Howard W. Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and Its Readers, Indiana University Press, 2003, p. 1
^ Matthew 13:55–56, Mark 6:3, and Galatians 1:19
^ The Greek word adelphos in these verses, often translated as brother, can refer to any familial relation, and most Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians translate the word as kinsman, brethren, or cousin in this context (see Perpetual virginity of Mary).
^ a b c d Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. "Matthew" pp. 272–285
^ For Egypt: Matthew 2:13–23; For Tyre and sometimes Sidon:Matthew 15:21–28 and Mark 7:24–3
^ Early Christian accounts reflect some perplexity at Jesus being baptized, especially by a subordinate figure. See "Baptism of Christ". Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ "John, Gospel of." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ "John, Gospel of St." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005
^ Mark 10:45
^ Luke 4:43
^ John 20:31.
^ Meier 1991 vol. 1:405
^ a b c Introduction. Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993.
^ "The Thompson Chain-Reference Study Bible NIV", published December 1999, B.B. Kirkbride Bible Co., Inc.; William Adler & Paul Tuffin, "The Chronography of George Synkellos: A Byzantine Chronicle of Universal History from the Creation", Oxford University Press (2002), p. 466
^ a b c d e f Funk, Robert W. and the Jesus Seminar. The acts of Jesus: the search for the authentic deeds of Jesus. HarperSanFrancisco. 1998.
^ Luke 14:26, Matthew 10:37. Luke contains a harsher version than the saying in Matthew, as does Thomas. Funk, Robert W., Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar. The five gospels. HarperSanFrancisco. 1993. p. 353
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
The effect Jesus had on the world greatly surpasses that of anyone else in history.
Again. Where is the proof of this statement? It cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt.
Keith - Administrator
There are many athiests such as Dawkins who believe it can!!!!!!!!!!!
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
never get to heaven on an ism skism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zTxUxFjLB0
Tocs what soap do you use?
Absit invidia
DISCLAIMER: The information hereinabove may or may not be entirely accurate, relevant, forthright, verifiable, or coherent. KeithAngel, who shall herein be refered to as the 'Shining Beacon of Light', reserves the right to neither confirm, deny, justify, explain, or otherwise acknowledge any inquiry in regards to the validity, genuinity, construction, intent, and/or motive of any statements, gestures, and/or actions whether real, imagined, or transdimensional in origin. Further, the 'Shining Beacon of Light' shall be absolved of any and all legal, moral, and financial responsibilities for damages to life, limb, character, reputation, property, and/or business resulting from the usage, assimilation, incorporation, replication, and/or distribution of said statements whether partial, complete, misquoted, or imagined. This disclaimer remains in effect despite any discrepancies or claims as to its legibility, comprehension, interpretation, subliminal suggestiveness, political affiliation, legality, visibility, and/or physical presence
Belief is not proof.
Keith - Administrator
Could you please explain (briefly) to the billions of followers of Islam and other religions why they are all wrong and you are right? You can't all be right. I suspect they could come up with long lists too.
And how likely is it that you would reach the same conclusion if you were born and grew up in Peshawar?
On a lighter note, I hear there is $1,000,000 reward for anyone who can provide empirical proof that Jesus was not the son of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It has yet to be claimed!
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/ Most amusing.
S
Peshawar,nice place
Wasn't it the Christians luck that Constantine took it up and it seemed somehow similar enough to solar monotheism or what ever it was called. So many Romans who believed in the various pagan rituals, the meeting on the day of the sun and praying facing the east. Which I belived they were more concerned about at the time? I maybe wrong im no theologian
Possibly like many companies/products some catch on lets say coke cola,microsoft,VHS and the iphone. When other rivals failed, not just because they were the best but for various reasons and good fortune.
In Christianity possibly the fact it incorporated most of the local festivals the locals celebrated rather than said this is the only way.
Why every Christian festival I remember from school also had a pagan equivalent and many of the "meanings" were taken from the Pagan beliefs it seems to little ol me.
So I guess yeah I can equate Jesus as Seattle Computer Products and Constantine as Bill gates and Microsoft.
So could it be that the cult of Jesus was handy at the time and though this that and the other ended up what it is to day?
That it could of been one of any other cults knocking about at the time which may have taken its place and may or may not have had the same effect?
A huge company took over and marketed it strongly? Mircosoft equals Rome.
I guess at least Rome didn't inflict Win me and Vista on us
Just as now you see People following the cult of MS and Apple and other brands and identies. Many people need to feel a part of a group, as a type of person, while others like to try and infulence people for the good and bad.
I wonder what people will be following in two thousand years. The Guru Gates or oh wise one Beckham
Oh lord why did you make so many clothes and shoe shops
All religions pass into oblivion eventually, history always repeats itself a bit like a our local curry house
Keith - Administrator
:Tocs what soap do you use?
magandang segway ba, hehehe
Yeah !Its obvious thou.... that british are 50/50 non believer/believermagandang segway ba, hehehe
Well I've heard it said often that 'Cleanliness is next to godliness'
It never used to work on me when my mother used it to try and get me in the bath as a kid.
S
I agree mrs.major. Medyo nakakashock lang to know and to read some posts here about people who strongly believe na walang diyos at hindi sya totoo. Nagkataon lang siguro na galing tayo sa bansa na majority (if not all) of the population are believers.Yeah !Its obvious thou.... that british are 50/50 non believer/believer
i dont either believe if "HE" exist
Oh ok, hehehe. Sorry, wrong send
Dude, why would I attempt to explain something I never said or believe?
In addition, as I alluded to on earlier posts, I focus where I can, on homogeniety rather than the converse. I said that Islam accepts that Jesus existed and was a prophet; in this I am correct and accurate. My understanding is that they believe Jesus was the last prophet before Mohammed 600 years later.
I pray with my very devout Muslim friends and friends of other denominations which I would not be able to do if I thought I was right about everything and they were wrong. Remember, I love everyone. I may disagree with or dislike the actions of some folk but I love them just the same. No matter what you may think Jesus loves you; I'm trying really hard.
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
Sorry - I think you misunderstood my point. Please let me clarify. You said previouslyDude, why would I attempt to explain something I never said or believe?
'Jesus Christ, is the central figure of Christianity and is revered by most Christian churches as the Son of God and the incarnation of God. Islam considers Jesus a prophet, and he is an important figure in several other religions.'
This is consistent with my understanding too.
The Christian faith view is that Jesus was the Son of God and the incarnation of God. However Islam indicates Jesus to be one in a line of Prophets, but certainly neither the Son of God or the incarnation. To me this seems to be a very fundamental difference, not interpretation or semantics. If you are convinced he was the Son of God, then as I stated Muslims must be mistaken. If they are right and he was just a prophet, then Christians must be wrong. Ditto the other religions you mention.
Hence my question on which one is correct... The Peshawar question follows from this also.
If one or other view is wrong, then there is also a possibility that they are both wrong.
Thanks
S
ooopppssss
to loved and beloved is the greatest joy on earth...
Ok I get it! Sure we may have differing beliefs but we don't debate on who is right or wrong but rather celebrate the fact that we have so much in common in terms of values. For example, raising families, being responsible and caring stewards with resources, etc. We also discuss misinterpretations of scripture from both sides.
For example many people know that Islam calls for separate Islamic states. What few people know, who are not Muslim, is that it qualifies this by saying within the context of the prevailing law of the land. A very imporant misunderstanding in my opinion.
I actually never thought of it in terms of wrongs and rights but simply my belief and the belief convergent in key areas and divergent in others.
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
Hindi amiga. Not at all; I respect JudyHon and only query him on things I don't quite follow and he has often been gracious enough to answer and seek to clarify the same.ooopppssss
I'm a lover not a fighter!
Michael Jackson - The girl is mine 1982
Be responsible with little so that you can be trusted with much!!
_____________________
Oh ok, hehehe. Sorry, wrong send
Hala Mrs.J hehe totoo? pambihira hahah! Wala ka rin bang Diyos?Kala ko sila lang, pati ikaw din hehe...
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