Is it a sin??????

[David House]

Life and death are antithetical terms. Summarily, your comments are tantamount to an assertion choice is synonomous with death. Quite preposterous in anyones view, surely. I can't fathom the rest of this paragraph of your post unfortunately.

That you reconcile the plight of desperate women scratching out the life inside them with a general perception that it is ok to kill it so long as its by some other means defies reasoning and again is somewhat paradoxical to your stated position of being repelled by the thought of abortion. Death is death period. It's quite pathetic to position pro-choice as some soft fuzzy good ending for all concerned. A life is being terminated. You seem to be aware of that but at the same time are in conflict.

This issue is so very much more complicated than those who hold the "pro-life" viewpoint wish to present it. I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion" and I certainly feel it has to be the choice of last resort, when it becomes the least worst option. I respect those, who through their own personal religious convictions, would never wish to have one, in any circumstances. I just wish that they would accept that there are many who do not share that view and then do their best to comfort and support those who through circumstances either feel forced into having to abort or are recommended to do so by their doctor.
I think there is a lot of confusion going on, partly brought about by the wonders of modern science. These days it is not simply the mother who can feel the changes going on in her womb, both she and her partner can "see" the developments through scans. I can understand why you might then believe that what you are feeling and seeing is a "baby". It is not though. It is still work in progress, incapable of existing independantly. It has the potential to become a baby, but may not for several reasons. It is not yet "alive" so cannot be killed. Abortion is a nasty business, but it is not murder and it is almost evil to describe it so, for it seeks to make already emotionally distressed women feel guilty. Pity the poor, with already too many mouths to feed and knowing that she cannot feed another, denied contraception by an ignorant Church and then denied a safe early abortion. Pity the mother, whose own life is under threat, having to give birth in all circumstances. Don't tell me that this is what God commands, for sure He has more pity than this.

[bornatbirth]

so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anthing other than that is pure nonsense!

[JudyHon]

Life and death are antithetical terms. Summarily, your comments are tantamount to an assertion choice is synonomous with death. Quite preposterous in anyones view, surely. I can't fathom the rest of this paragraph of your post unfortunately.

That you reconcile the plight of desperate women scratching out the life inside them with a general perception that it is ok to kill it so long as its by some other means defies reasoning and again is somewhat paradoxical to your stated position of being repelled by the thought of abortion. Death is death period. It's quite pathetic to position pro-choice as some soft fuzzy good ending for all concerned. A life is being terminated. You seem to be aware of that but at the same time are in conflict.

I can’t fathom the start of your post, myself, but it appears you are putting words in people’s mouths.

There is no difficulty in reconciling - however abhorrent I personally might find a practice, I can only guess at what must be going through a person’s mind when they would resort to mutilating themselves and put their lives in real danger rather than see the pregnancy through to term. Perhaps the deaths that sometimes do result are less important? Oh no, death is death. You seem to see things is such black and white terms.

I think in such cases their right not to be forced into such an extreme and intolerable situation subordinates the right to life of their foetus. It is living but it is not a person.

No one is positioning pro-choice as happy ending. You create yet another straw man. It is in my opinion the least bad option, and not a ‘general perception that it is ok to kill’.

Do you advocate that women who are raped and become pregnant must give birth also? What about where severe birth defects are picked up in a scan, and the child wil have no real quality of life?

[Jamesey]

It should be impressed upon her that you cannot come back from a murder.

This piece of "advice" is appalling.

The woman is obviously in a very difficult situation, and the last thing she needs is to be told that she is considering "murder", even if it is a misplaced definition of it.

[Mrs Daddy]

Oh dear we`re on page 5 now!I am trying to digest your opinion guys and to be honest I find it very confusing and I am losing my mind now All I really hope for her is to get through all this mess and hopefully she`ll get her strenght back

[David House]

Oh dear we`re on page 5 now!I am trying to digest your opinion guys and to be honest I find it very confusing and I am losing my mind now All I really hope for her is to get through all this mess and hopefully she`ll get her strenght back

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

[adam&chryss]

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

An excellent post that sums up the situation well
We all have our opinions of which you know many now
Good luck for the difficult times ahead.

[Mrs.JMajor]

Just be a friend. Show compassion and understanding. Don't be judgemental or try to impose your own views or beliefs. She will have enough emotional baggage right now without anyone adding more. What she needs is someone to show they care, and dare it be said, some love. There is no need to be confused about the different views being expressed here. They match the deep divide which exists on this issue, it's nothing new, they cannot be reconciled and you should not try. Separate your own position from your duty as a friend who has a friend in need. Good luck to you both.

And i want to say you made a good thread and everyone had said thier different views, but the fact this words I quoted is the best thing you need to do Wheela, I wish for her recovery

[Piamed]

This issue is so very much more complicated than those who hold the "pro-life" viewpoint wish to present it. I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion" and I certainly feel it has to be the choice of last resort, when it becomes the least worst option. I respect those, who through their own personal religious convictions, would never wish to have one, in any circumstances. I just wish that they would accept that there are many who do not share that view and then do their best to comfort and support those who through circumstances either feel forced into having to abort or are recommended to do so by their doctor.
I think there is a lot of confusion going on, partly brought about by the wonders of modern science. These days it is not simply the mother who can feel the changes going on in her womb, both she and her partner can "see" the developments through scans. I can understand why you might then believe that what you are feeling and seeing is a "baby". It is not though. It is still work in progress, incapable of existing independantly. It has the potential to become a baby, but may not for several reasons. It is not yet "alive" so cannot be killed. Abortion is a nasty business, but it is not murder and it is almost evil to describe it so, for it seeks to make already emotionally distressed women feel guilty. Pity the poor, with already too many mouths to feed and knowing that she cannot feed another, denied contraception by an ignorant Church and then denied a safe early abortion. Pity the mother, whose own life is under threat, having to give birth in all circumstances. Don't tell me that this is what God commands, for sure He has more pity than this.

I accept that you do not understand that an early stage life can be perceived by others as a baby. We all have our individual views.

I never mentioned anything about religious convictions and am not using them to temper my position because I do not believe it is necessary to and nor did I make any reference to being pro-life. I am not pro-life as it is used within this context. Pro-life is not opposite to pro-choice. I am anti-abortion which according to my understanding is what this thread is about. It is not about choice at all.

The author of this thread has raised the issue of abortion being a sin or not. That seems pretty back and white to me. Others have sought to modify the it being a sin aspect so as to make it more palatable. But it is what it is. Would members of the pro-choice-to-abort party be happy if any of the arguments they have espoused relating to the validity of life, etc. were applied to them and their children?


In response to the notion that it is not living and therefore cannot be killed - When a mother unfortunately miscarries at an early stage of pregnancy, why does the doctor tell her that her baby has died? Do you think its because the doctor believes that she cannot comprehend that the child was not living? Or could be be that he wants to use warm and fuzzy albeit inaccurate language in his communications with her?

The rest of my comments are reiterated and highlighted in bold in my original posting.

so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anything other than that is pure nonsense!

That is clearly your view and I accept that. I think pro-choice advocates should side with maintaining a life as if it has been extingushed further options/choices are redundant.

I can’t fathom the start of your post, myself, but it appears you are putting words in people’s mouths.

There is no difficulty in reconciling - however abhorrent I personally might find a practice, I can only guess at what must be going through a person’s mind when they would resort to mutilating themselves and put their lives in real danger rather than see the pregnancy through to term. Perhaps the deaths that sometimes do result are less important? Oh no, death is death. You seem to see things is such black and white terms.

I think in such cases their right not to be forced into such an extreme and intolerable situation subordinates the right to life of their foetus. It is living but it is not a person.

No one is positioning pro-choice as happy ending. You create yet another straw man. It is in my opinion the least bad option, and not a ‘general perception that it is ok to kill’.

Do you advocate that women who are raped and become pregnant must give birth also? What about where severe birth defects are picked up in a scan, and the child will have no real quality of life?

I never said anyone must do anything. If an early-stage life has severe defects indicated on a scan do you believe it should be terminated? If one does then they believe that many happy individuals alive today should have been aborted. If you've seen any documentaries with parents of so-called abnormal children you would know that most disagree with any suggestion that they should have been aborted - the children in question also. Please also see highlighted points on my original posting.

What is the difference between being living and being a person? What is this extreme and intolerable situation you speak of that subordinates the right to life of an unborn person? Are you referring to motherhood and responsibility? If your thoughts are representative of what society considers extreme and tolerable, were are in phenomenally bad shape I would suggest.

This piece of "advice" is appalling.

The woman is obviously in a very difficult situation, and the last thing she needs is to be told that she is considering "murder", even if it is a misplaced definition of it.

You are right; advising another that it is simply ok to abort any early-stage life inside her time and again is a far better option and much more palatable to some. Apologies for the sarcasm - I do admit that the advice i've put forward should not be communicated quite in the nanner i've done here. It's a mixed audience on here and some things are iterated in a manner precipitated by specific individuals.

I suspect that the notion that what is effectively murder is misplaced, stems from a desire to tone down the truth. What I have said is correct both legally and morally as any review of the extant literature will reveal.

Everyone has a choice and all things in life are impacted by the choices we make. For the record, I have counseled women prior to abortions and supported them through both decisionary paths. I held the hand of one of my closest friends during her abortion and drove another to the hospital have one and picked her up afterward with tears in my eyes. They chose me as people who know me well know that I may disagree with something and will say so but at the end of the day will fiercely defend our friendship and am always there for my friends. I present my counsel to involved parties in a different way to how I communicate on here but the essence is still the same and then it's their choice. This has nothing to do with religion but is about wisdom, choice and consequences. Through my work I have seen more abortions than you could ever imagine. There is never anything satisfying about it and women do not say, "Yehey, I'm exercising pro-choice" as they sit there crying afterward. They say, "I have just murdered my baby". Not to advise friends when solicited for advise is a failing.

[Mrs Daddy]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint

[bornatbirth]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint

thats alot of pints

where are we going to meet up?

[Mrs.JMajor]

thats alot of pints

where are we going to meet up?

No, you didnt explain well, more pints for Piamed

[Pepe n Pilar]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint

Thanks Mrs. Daddy...

thats alot of pints

where are we going to meet up?

Count me in Wheela...

No, you didnt explain well, more pints for Piamed

Mrs Daddy is thanking each and everyone.....

[Mrs.JMajor]

Mrs Daddy is thanking each and everyone.....

I am just kidding to bornabirth,
and I guess he wont take it seriously

[Mrs Daddy]

Its getting serious around here come on!lets have a reunion at Boss place

R u reading Boss

[bornatbirth]

thanks to each and everyone I owe you all a pint

was that pints of ice tea?

I am just kidding to bornabirth,
and I guess he wont take it seriously

im already pikon and followed by tampo!!!

[Mrs Daddy]

was that pints of ice tea?



im already pikon and followed by tampo!!!

Is a pint of water would do for you?


anytime pm me where is the meeting place?I have tried phoning ate ping but I bet they`re still in vegas playing casino I just wonder if we could visit you next sunday Mr. and Mrs. Boss

[joebloggs]

so whats the answer?

a baby is not live until it can breathe by its self anthing other than that is pure nonsense!

now that's pure nonsense , a unborn baby with a heart beat is not a live i think a heart beat is a good sign of life

also if that is so, then why is there a 24wk limit for abortions in the uk then ? seems the law thinks that a unborn baby that has not taken a breathe on its own does have rights.

Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a former nurse who proposed a 20-week limit, said a baby's rights should be considered at the point it had the "chance of life".


piamed looks like i agree with you, and so does the misses

[bornatbirth]

i dont pay much attention to tory mps! pity you do?

and how does that 20 week old baby survive? without help,thats playing god and humans are not god?

why is there a 24 week law? and not lower because the doctors cant agree!

so when does life begin?

[Piamed]

now that's pure nonsense , a unborn baby with a heart beat is not a live i think a heart beat is a good sign of life

also if that is so, then why is there a 24wk limit for abortions in the uk then ? seems the law thinks that a unborn baby that has not taken a breathe on its own does have rights.

Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a former nurse who proposed a 20-week limit, said a baby's rights should be considered at the point it had the "chance of life".


piamed looks like i agree with you, and so does the misses

Cheers mate! Each perspective will have it's own supporters. I'm exceptionally happy to have you both side with me on this issue.

[joebloggs]

i dont pay much attention to tory mps! pity you do?

and how does that 20 week old baby survive? without help,thats playing god and humans are not god?

why is there a 24 week law? and not lower because the doctors cant agree!

so when does life begin?

no i don't pay much attention to any MP's, but its funny you only mention the MP part and not the former NURSE part , so she will probably has a better idea of what she's talking about than you or I, or many if not all the MPs .

playing god , if your ever ill and need hospital treatment, are you going to refuse it , are the doctors not playing god then

changes in medical science means that babes have a better chance of surviving and sooner, of course not all doctors agree with the 24wks (but i'm sure the 24wks will be reduced to 20wks soon), but all doctors like my wife, who took the Hippocratic oath, that doctors should not harm the patient(s)

[David House]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement. When we were in Cebu earlier this year we were involved on a daily basis with a family member who has terminal cancer. Although the neurologist knew she was going to die within 2 years he would not say so directly because of his faith and his belief that such matters are only in the hands of "God". It made handling the situation in the best way much more difficult.
When treating a pregnant women is the doctor primarily concerned for the mother or her potential baby? It cannot be easy, given the strongly held opposing views expressed here.
My position is clear. I don't believe "life" begins until it can survive alone. Until then it is not viable. I can understand the emotional attachment of parents to the changes happening within the mother, and why they feel as they do. Just because one part starts to work ( like the heart) does not mean that "life" exists. It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

[joebloggs]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement.

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.

It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it

how many women on here who have had a baby agree with you ? fact or fiction without a heart beat your dead

[adam&chryss]

I don't envy any doctor faced with such decisions, especially if they also have strongly held religious convictions which might conflict with their clinical judgement. When we were in Cebu earlier this year we were involved on a daily basis with a family member who has terminal cancer. Although the neurologist knew she was going to die within 2 years he would not say so directly because of his faith and his belief that such matters are only in the hands of "God". It made handling the situation in the best way much more difficult.
When treating a pregnant women is the doctor primarily concerned for the mother or her potential baby? It cannot be easy, given the strongly held opposing views expressed here.
My position is clear. I don't believe "life" begins until it can survive alone. Until then it is not viable. I can understand the emotional attachment of parents to the changes happening within the mother, and why they feel as they do. Just because one part starts to work ( like the heart) does not mean that "life" exists. It is a bit like saying that a F1 car exists when you are testing the engine in the workshop. Until it goes out onto the track as a finished car, with a driver able to operate it, it is not viable on it's own. I don't intend any insult to anyone but its important to remove the emotion and look at the facts.

Once baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs?

nagpipilosopo lang po

[David House]

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it

If you read what I said I was talking about the "engine" being only part of the car. Of course a car would still be a car if left in the garage, the same way a person is a person if they never left home. The point is that having a heartbeat is no more relevant than any other muscle movement. There is too much emotional meaning attached to the "heart" meaning that there is life. The brain is much more important.

baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs?

I have accepted that many women have an understandable emotional response to this. It is not just the heartbeat which is essential, but it is the thing which is most noticeable and which therefore gets the most attention. Once born a baby does not need their mother to survive. Clearly they cannot survive alone but that is a different matter. They are then a viable being, are clearly alive and need full protection and nurture.

[adam&chryss]

my misses tells me, many docs in the phils give women who have tired to abort a baby a difficult time, because it goes not just against their religious convictions but also goes against the reasons why they became doctors.

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.

so a car has been built to be a F1 car, is it not still a F1 car even if it never leaves the garage ? its like saying a tv is not a tv unless someone turns it on and is watching it

If you read what I said I was talking about the "engine" being only part of the car. Of course a car would still be a car if left in the garage, the same way a person is a person if they never left home. The point is that having a heartbeat is no more relevant than any other muscle movement. There is too much emotional meaning attached to the "heart" meaning that there is life. The brain is much more important.

baby is born still he/she can't survive alone.. Still needs his/her mum to survive. So life begins when you are able to work and earn money to survive your daily needs?

I have accepted that many women have an understandable emotional response to this. It is not just the heartbeat which is essential, but it is the thing which is most noticeable and which therefore gets the most attention. Once born a baby does not need their mother to survive. Clearly they cannot survive alone but that is a different matter. They are then a viable being, are clearly alive and need full protection and nurture.

Same with a woman when pregnant. She eats alot of healthy foods to protect and nurture her baby inside her womb.

In everything you'll say I will have an answer or will contradict with it. And in everything I'll say you'll also have an answer on it.
This is a never ending debate or conversation because of what views or beliefs each of us have.
Which is fine because members have something to read at the same time we have something to post

just being cheeky

[joebloggs]

Shame on them then! I think that rather proves my point. Surely their primary duty is to their patient who is the mother, and not the potential child she carrying.

part of the original Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

why do you keep mentioning about the mother only being the patient, the unborn baby is also a patient !

as just posted by adam&chryss, we're never going to agree.

but i wish all future moms to be, good health for you and your baby

i've said my bit, and time to go and play with ex-foetus little joe

[bornatbirth]

so when does a babies life begin?

and why are you quoting that oath!

[joebloggs]

and why are you quoting that oath!

it begins when you think it does

it's an oath (or similar) all doctors have to take

[bornatbirth]

it begins when you think it does

it's an oath (or similar) all doctors have to take

then we have a never ending argument dont we?

and that oath needs updating and modernising?

when would you feel a baby should be terminated?... if ever,as its seems doctors should do everything to keep a baby alive when should they allow one to die?