Is it a sin??????

[Mrs Daddy]

How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?

Tell that to the Priests and Nuns! They do it all the time, on this subject and many other matters!

Thats trueand that keeps me thinking

[Piamed]

[QUOTE=David House;138177]

To describe those on the other side of this debate as "pro-abortionists" is inaccurate and as emotionally charged as much of what is said by the "pro-life" lobby. No-one is, I believe, "pro-abortion". The argument is not really about whether you are in favour of abortion, only whether it can ever be acceptable. For some it is, for others it cannot be in any circumstances.
It is the same about trying to define "life". For some, me included, "human life" does not truly exist unless, and until, a baby draws it's first unaided breath. Until then it is an extension of it's mother and totally dependent upon her. Her life exists, but not a new independent one. Others have an alternative view but how far back do you want to go as "life" exists at many levels. In my view the debate needs to concentrate upon when a "human" exists, and that surely cannot be at the moment of conception. The distinction may be a fine line but it is a very important one in an ethical debate. Those who would put women at risk by denying them the opportunity to have a safe abortion, when no other reasonable option is available, have a lot to answer for. This is an imperfect world. Poor people, with too many mouths to feed, may be driven into the hands of dangerous back street abortionists. Practical solutions are required not theoretical concepts.

I don't believe calling those in favour of abortions in any variety of contexts, pro-abortionists is at all incorrect. From many of the postings it is clear that some are generally against abortions as options - anti-abortionists, and there are those who are in favour of abortions as options - pro-abortionists. Pro-life and and pro-choice are not substitutable terms in my view, as to my mind they are used inconsistently across the various forumers.

I do not believe the term pro-abortion is any more emotionally charged than the term pro-choice when used as an inappropriate antithesis to pro-life or anti-abortion.

The cardinal signs are demonstrated by the growing entity within the womb and thus according to biological principles it is living. It appears that biogy suited so many when used in contexts opposing religious ideology but is inappropriate now.

Anyway, I've said my peace.

Honestly, there is no need to call me Sir. I know my posts are compelling, but such reverence is excessive. Unless you are being facetious which seems a rather unchristian trait.

I am not limiting my expertise to the Dictionary. Actually, I do have some expertise in the field of biology, but don’t wish to crow about it. Referring to objective definitions to correct obvious misnomers seemed like a reasonable place to start however. I think your experience and expertise count for little as you have never had to take a decision on abortion. I have already indicated the single group whose experience puts them above the rest of us in such a discussion.

I know enough about the issue to be aware that there are myriad theories about when life starts, and no single biological ‘truth’ all accept. None is provable, and people more knowledgeable than you and I cannot agree on a specific ‘moment’. Some argue that life does not begin at all – it is a continuous cycle or continuum – hence my reference to sperm and ovum.

I don’t recall saying an unborn baby is not human. I stand by my assertion that a fertilised egg is not a human being. That there is a difference seems obvious to me and a great many people. Very few people (at least in the UK) equate the two and to say they are the same thing seems to me a fundamentally incredible statement.

Frankly I could argue the toss over this one until doomsday, but what is the point. We are going round in circles already, and life’s too short.

I would however, say that you do seem to have a bad case of double standards. When the discussion was on religion, you emphasised the need to respect believers views when I used the terms ‘brain-washing’, ‘fairy tales’ and ‘irrelevant’ in association with organised religion. But now you wade into this discussion banding around terms such as ‘preposterous, pathetic, myopic, naïve’ to other equally valid dissenting views. You do your argument no favours using such pejorative terms.

Perhaps your religious views are inherently more deserving of respect? Or maybe just your views? I suggest I am not the only one who could be accused of ‘tripping over their exuberance’ whatever that means. Everyone is entitled to express their views here.

Thanks. That’s my lot. Enjoy chasing your tails…

Sir, I do find much in your postings compelling. Btw, your statement that I have never had to make a decision is related to abortion false as you do not know what I've had to do. You categorised expertise and experience as being key criteria, stated you have expertise and minimised my own even though you have no idea what mine is That's not nice is it? As you know, there is absolutely nothing in life universally accepted. That's a given. We are clearly polarised on what you believe is an issue relating to the unborn being human beings. Sobeit.

Preposterous: Contrary to nature
Pathetic: Evoking sympathy (I don't recall saying that but assume you are correct that I did)
Myopic: Limited perspective
Naive: lack a critical examination


Saying that I believe that some your statements fell into the above does not disrespect you in my view. nor does it harm the essential you and further it does not pour scorn on any of your ideologies. Are you really suggesting I perjured myself? Come, come now!

Everyone is entitled to express their views as many have done! Nothing wrong with exuberance but it can lead to premature enthusiasm. Peace.

I've been travelling, am tired, hungry and want to go and kiss my wife and marvel at the new things Marikit is doing. Today she has learned to coordinate her arms so she can reach out and grab the teddy bears on the mobile. That takes precedence.

Wish you all the best, I shall gracefully retire from this thread. All the best to you out there.

[joebloggs]

How could anyone give advice on any subject if they havnt remotely experienced it?

Tell that to the Priests and Nuns! They do it all the time, on this subject and many other matters!

and you think the 60,000 women in the uk in 2006 who had abortions, and had already had at least one abortion, would be best people to give advice on abortions? maybe on making 'mistakes', they are surely are not qualified to give advice on contraceptive methods.

my wife has not experienced an abortion herself, but she has seen 100s of abortions in the phils, some for medical reasons, most because of women turning up at A & E bleeding from failed backstreet abortions, in just one night when she was a student doctor she witnessed more than 50 abortions, i think that gives her some experience of abortions, and maybe the reason why she and many doctors are against them.

[JudyHon]

Sir, I do find much in your postings compelling. Btw, your statement that I have never had to make a decision is related to abortion false as you do not know what I've had to do. You categorised expertise and experience as being key criteria, stated you have expertise and minimised my own even though you have no idea what mine is That's not nice is it? As you know, there is absolutely nothing in life universally accepted. That's a given. We are clearly polarised on what you believe is an issue relating to the unborn being human beings. Sobeit.

Preposterous: Contrary to nature
Pathetic: Evoking sympathy (I don't recall saying that but assume you are correct that I did)
Myopic: Limited perspective
Naive: lack a critical examination


Saying that I believe that some your statements fell into the above does not disrespect you in my view. nor does it harm the essential you and further it does not pour scorn on any of your ideologies. Are you really suggesting I perjured myself? Come, come now!

Everyone is entitled to express their views as many have done! Nothing wrong with exuberance but it can lead to premature enthusiasm. Peace.

I've been travelling, am tired, hungry and want to go and kiss my wife and marvel at the new things Marikit is doing. Today she has learned to coordinate her arms so she can reach out and grab the teddy bears on the mobile. That takes precedence.

Wish you all the best, I shall gracefully retire from this thread. All the best to you out there.

Sir,
Unless you have a uterus that you weren't letting on, you couldn't personally have had to take the decision I was refering to. I was talking in an earlier post about a pregnant woman who finds herself facing this decision, and the resulting experience that she would bring to a discussion. In some fields expertise may be a basis for advice, but I don't think is one of them.

Three of the four negative terms were not actually directed at my posts, but either other people's (who happened to have opinions that it is the individual's choice) and a 'pathetic' quality of the pro-choice view itself. But good to know they can be applied to all dissenters.

I don't believe I referred to perjuring at all.

[bornatbirth]

after all that is it still a sin???

[Mrs Daddy]

after all that is it still a sin???

that`s the question

[joebloggs]

we're not gonna get 10 pages out of this

time for me to call it a day.. i bet all you lot are pro hunting, pro vivisection

just joking


i think its time to go ... things are getting a bit nasty now..





caesar dom, you might be needed here soon

maybe time to lock this thread..

[Sophie]

we're not gonna get 10 pages out of this

time for me to call it a day.. i bet all you lot are pro hunting, pro vivisection

just joking


i think its time to go ... things are getting a bit nasty now..

now on page 8, i don't think going to 10 is unlikely

[bornatbirth]

if they was footie fans they could take a bit of banter?

[Mrs Daddy]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon

maybe time to lock this thread..

I second demotion as you all doing my head in

[Mrs.JMajor]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon

maybe time to lock this thread..

That is against human rights cant they just express thier opinion Mod Joe

[joebloggs]

That is against human rights cant they just express thier opinion Mod Joe

potential people don't have rights

[Florge]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers... and hmmmm.... i can't think....

[Sophie]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers

I will have to agree. I guess that's the simplest way to put it. We might as well just leave it at that. Debating about it further would be totally pointless anyway, IMO that is.

[adam&chryss]

I will have to agree. I guess that's the simplest way to put it. We might as well just leave it at that. Debating about it further would be totally pointless anyway, IMO that is.

yep!

why don't we just make a poll same as what mod did.. the answer will be just yes or no. no need to discuss or explain ur answer

coz as what i have said this is a never-ending debate.

[pennybarry]

the concept of sin and/or sinning is brought about by religion.. so I was just thinking that if you don't have a religion, then you don't believe in sin and sinning? right? so, is it safe to say that abortion is a sin in the eyes of a believer and not a sin to the non-believers... and hmmmm.... i can't think....

The problem is, the believers are the doers

It was the topic yesterday at BBC 1. NHS found out that ABORTION is falling in England while in Scotland, it is increasing.

[Florge]

The problem is, the believers are the doers

It was the topic yesterday at BBC 1. NHS found out that ABORTION is falling in England while in Scotland, it is increasing.

That's why the believers think that it is a sin...

[bornatbirth]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin!

[Mrs Daddy]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin!

Thats make me think of it as well

[aromulus]

caesar dom, you might be needed here soon
maybe time to lock this thread..

Do it yourself...

The thread is going quite nicely, the topic is not something I would like to talk and debate about, but opens the mind to the way people think.

[Florge]

so if you stop believing its no longer a sin!

yup.. could be the case...

[bornatbirth]

so we have gone from abortion being a sin,to the sin being committed more by people believing its a sin?

and all i thought that a mother should have the choice to have a baby or not but the big question is at what point can she terminate the baby???...as even the best doctors and even different countries cant agree on this?