Registrar General

[Ady]

Good morning.

A quick question. My fiancee, Shei, is annulled - we have now visited the Registrar here in the UK, and her documents (annulment) were forwarded to the General Registrar Head Office.

The letter back confirms that all is OK.

But one thing they pointed out is that

"The Registrar General can give no assurance that the divorce would be recognised as valid by the Courts of the Country or elsewhere".

Is this the usual thing people would expect to see?

Did others in this position get a similar statement?

Thanks in Advance

Ady

[Pepe n Pilar]

"The Registrar General can give no assurance that the divorce would be recognised as valid by the Courts of the Country or elsewhere".

This is the first time i have known a statement like this.

The Registrar General should know that there are countries that doesn't have divorce. Ex. the Phils we have the annulment instead. So when you submit your paper to the county where you intend to have the civil wedding they will send your paper to their H.O. to confirm what is the equivalent of that to their country as every country has different laws.

Your fiancee is annuled in the Phils so when she register here in the UK she should use the status "single".

Best of luck Ady.

[Mrs.JMajor]

yap, on my letter stating...

"The Registar General can give no assurance that the annulment would be recognized as valid by the courts in this country or elsewhere and that if any time it becomes necessary for you to satisfy other United Kingdom authorities as to the legality of marriage which you propose to register. You may be called upon to satisfy those authorities as to validity of the annulment"


well...dont worry about that,because they hard to understand the annulment in the PI, which I always said the marriage was null and void, unlike here in the UK , Divorce or dissolve,

Carry on friend,dont worry that words..
Best wishes on the wedding...

[bornatbirth]

do they mean if you get divorced here in the uk?,because if she is anulled already how can she get divorced?

i think there just covering there backs?

[Ady]

Hi there itsme_iye.

We have to amend our notice of marriage to show Shei as single, since the annulment means that she reverts back to her status before her last marriage. For example, someone may be a widower, remarry, annul, so the status will be widower again.

Maybe different regions have different instructions - I was just curious if anyone had that note before.

[Ady]

Thanks Juliet.... seems the same message - thanks for sharing with us, so no problems there!

BornatBirth - I am sure it is just them covering their backs. Just threw me slightly!

Thanks all for the responses!

[Pepe n Pilar]

Hi there itsme_iye.

We have to amend our notice of marriage to show Shei as single, since the annulment means that she reverts back to her status before her last marriage. For example, someone may be a widower, remarry, annul, so the status will be widower again.

Maybe different regions have different instructions - I was just curious if anyone had that note before.

For example, someone may be a widower, remarry, annul, so the status will be widower again

The present status will be based on the last or the latest. So in this case if she is annuled then she is "single".
If he remarry and the last status before he remarried was widower, then his status at present is "widower".

Cheers!

[johncar54]

In English law 'annulled' has only one meaning, 'the marriage never took place, thus it was never a marriage. In law it was void ab initio, or void from the beginning' Such a case would be where one of the parties was already married or where the person performing the marriage was not legally authorised to do so.

An annulment in the Philippines usually would the equivalent to a divorce in UK. in that the couple were legally married at sometime. It’s a sort of way around the Filipino law which does not permit something called divorce. However, a person with an annulment in the Philippines, who was legally married, cannot get married in the catholic church; a person whose ‘marriage’ has been declared void ab initio can, as they were never married.

For a person who has a Filipino annulment to declare themselves as single in UK would probably be incorrect. For example, when a divorced person gets married again, they are single but in law are divorced. To state single would not be a legal statement and probably could result in a prosecution.

[Pepe n Pilar]

For a person who has a Filipino annulment to declare themselves as single in UK would probably be incorrect. For example, when a divorced person gets married again, they are single but in law are divorced. To state single would not be a legal statement and probably could result in a prosecution..

Filipinos thought once the annulment is done then her status is annulled not single.
The Registrar General corrected that, they said the status should be "single".
because a person whose marriage has been declared "void ab initio" meaning
a marriage never took place therefore...... she is single now....

unlike Divorce

once a person is divorced he should have the present status as "divorced".
Because even it is the counterpart of annulment in the Phils
divorced means legal dissolution of marriage ( a marriage took place) but was dissolved.

This was the explanation of the Registry Officer. A lawyer can explain more about this..

[johncar54]

I repeat.

In UK law a person who has been lawfully married can never have the marriage annulled.

If a legal definition of a person whose marriage as been annulled has been requested from a lawyer then they will be told they have never been married, thus are single.

If the proceeding were in the Philippines then the person asked would need to know the circumstances. If the marriage never took place then they were never married. If the marriage was legally accepted but then an action was taken to annul it under Filipino law then the position of those concerned cannot in UK law be considered as single. That refers only to someone who has never been married, ie. in a legally accepted ceremony.

Most so called annulments in the Philippines are in UK law divorces.

(I am a former UK Detective Chief Inspector)

[Ady]

Hi Johncar,

I can see your point, and that makes most sense.

However, I have been told by the Registrar General to amend Shei's status on her Notice of Marriage contract to "Single".

This was because "In The Philippines, an individual reverts to their pre-marriage condition following an annulment. Therefore, the authorisation for marriage cannot be issued until both of you arrend this office to witness a correction to your notice of marriage".

[Pepe n Pilar]

I repeat.

In UK law a person who has been lawfully married can never have the marriage annulled.

Yes under the UK law a person who has been lawfully married can never have the marriage annulled because there is divorce here not annulment.

If a legal definition of a person whose marriage as been annulled has been requested from a lawyer then they will be told they have never been married, thus are single.

Yes a person who has undergone annulment in the Phils has his/her status as single in her papers whilst in the Phils and when she goes to another country he/she bears that status as well.

If the proceeding were in the Philippines then the person asked would need to know the circumstances. If the marriage never took place then they were never married. If the marriage was legally accepted but then an action was taken to annul it under Filipino law then the position of those concerned cannot in UK law be considered as single. That refers only to someone who has never been married, ie. in a legally accepted ceremony.

Single - means never been married. Since a person who has undergone annulment is considered as marriage that never took place then if it never happend or never took place then the person is single...

Most so called annulments in the Philippines are in UK law divorces.

Yes we know that annulments in the Philippines are called divorces in the UK.

(I am a former UK Detective Chief Inspector)

Alright. so this is just a piece of cake for you then.....

Thanks...

Cheers!

[johncar54]

Ady.

I would never to suggest to anyone getting married in UK, whose marriage was annulled in The Philippines, to show single, unless the marriage was annulled in the sense accepted by UK law, ie. that the marriage never took place. Better yo safe than sorry.

[johncar54]

Itsme said, Yes under the UK law a person who has been lawfully married can never have the marriage annulled because there is divorce here not annulment.


There is annulment in UK law.

It is where the court accepts that there was never a valid marriage.

The same applies worldwide to the Catholic Church.

One such UK case was Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger's marriage to model Jerry Hall. It was found that they did not marry in Bali, when they went through a 'marriage type ceremony.'

[Florge]

Ady.

I would never to suggest to anyone getting married in UK, whose marriage was annulled in The Philippines, to show single, unless the marriage was annulled in the sense accepted by UK law, ie. that the marriage never took place. Better yo safe than sorry.

But it's UK Registrar General who said that the status be changed to single? Are you saying that Ady should listen to you and not to the Registrar?

[Pepe n Pilar]

To Johncar54,
I don't know about Mick Jagger's marriage to Jerry Hall in Bali, Indonesia. I was just referring to the Philippine law on annulment. A person annulled in the Phils and re marry in the UK.
For me it doesn't matter if a person will have the status of "annulled" if she/he has a previous marriage dissolved. It is just that the Registrar General approves that title(single).

[johncar54]

Florge and Itsme

Sorry I don't want to appear to be splitting hairs but if you are in UK and you tell the authorities your marriage was annulled. It must be accepted that you are saying that as it relates to the Law of the UK. That is that the ceremony which appeared to be a marriage ceremony was not and that you were not married. In that case you are single.



If you say you were legally married anywhere and that the marriage was dissolved then any advice to show single would be incorrect. (If the true status was reported to the UK Registrar General his advice would be the same as mine. But as I said, if you told him your marriage was annulled, as per UK law, then you are single.)

If you are in UK then UK law applies. For example if a person over 16 married in say Spain to a person under that age, if they visited UK and slept together they would be open to prosecution for underage sex. Jerry Lee Lewis many years ago was legally married in USA (Kentucky I think) to a girl under 16. He was told if he visit UK with his wife he would be open to prosecution.

The law is fascinating and not always obvious. That's why people can earn their living interpreting it.

Apologies, but unless someone has a new angle, please forgive me, but I do not see how I can add anymore.
If you disagree with what I have said we must agree to differ.

[Pepe n Pilar]

But it's UK Registrar General who said that the status be changed to single? Are you saying that Ady should listen to you and not to the Registrar?

Yes Florge i have mentioned it on post #9.
UK Registrar General says use "single"...

[Florge]

Florge and Itsme

Sorry I don't want to appear to be splitting hairs but if you are in UK and you tell the authorities your marriage was annulled. It must be accepted that you are saying that as it relates to the Law of the UK. That is that the ceremony which appeared to be a marriage ceremony was not and that you were not married. In that case you are single.



If you say you were legally married anywhere and that the marriage was dissolved then any advice to show single would be incorrect. (If the true status was reported to the UK Registrar General his advice would be the same as mine. But as I said, if you told him your marriage was annulled, as per UK law, then you are single.)

If you are in UK then UK law applies. For example if a person over 16 married in say Spain to a person under that age, if they visited UK and slept together they would be open to prosecution for underage sex. Jerry Lee Lewis many years ago was legally married in USA (Kentucky I think) to a girl under 16. He was told if he visit UK with his wife he would be open to prosecution.

The law is fascinating and not always obvious. That's why people can earn their living interpreting it.

Apologies, but unless someone has a new angle, please forgive me, but I do not see how I can add anymore.
If you disagree with what I have said we must agree to differ.

sorry but I'm not disagreeing with you in any way... just pointing out that putting single in the status is what Ady should do as this is what the UK Registrar General told him. I am guessing that's what itsme_iye was also trying to point out. No one is disagreeing with you po.

[Pepe n Pilar]

Florge and Itsme

Sorry I don't want to appear to be splitting hairs but if you are in UK and you tell the authorities your marriage was annulled. It must be accepted that you are saying that as it relates to the Law of the UK. That is that the ceremony which appeared to be a marriage ceremony was not and that you were not married. In that case you are single.



If you say you were legally married anywhere and that the marriage was dissolved then any advice to show single would be incorrect. (If the true status was reported to the UK Registrar General his advice would be the same as mine. But as I said, if you told him your marriage was annulled, as per UK law, then you are single.)

If you are in UK then UK law applies. For example if a person over 16 married in say Spain to a person under that age, if they visited UK and slept together they would be open to prosecution for underage sex. Jerry Lee Lewis many years ago was legally married in USA (Kentucky I think) to a girl under 16. He was told if he visit UK with his wife he would be open to prosecution.

The law is fascinating and not always obvious. That's why people can earn their living interpreting it.

Apologies, but unless someone has a new angle, please forgive me, but I do not see how I can add anymore.
If you disagree with what I have said we must agree to differ.

To Johncar54,

I'm just saying what the Registrar General says. I have the same opinion as yours that is use the title of annulled not single but because the RG say so then so be it.

Cheers!

[johncar54]

To Johncar54,

I'm just saying what the Registrar General says. I have the same opinion as yours that is use the title of annulled not single but because the RG say so then so be it.

Cheers!

You may have missed it where I said; If the true status was reported to the UK Registrar General his advice would be the same as mine, but if you told him your marriage was annulled, as per UK law, he would say you are single.

If you told him the marriage had been dissolved (annulled Filipino style) he would not say show single.

[Mrs.JMajor]

Ady.

I would never to suggest to anyone getting married in UK, whose marriage was annulled in The Philippines, to show single, unless the marriage was annulled in the sense accepted by UK law, ie. that the marriage never took place. Better yo safe than sorry.

Nope, if he will follow you he will be in trouble (kidding) seriously I had been on that situation, very fresh still Sir Johncar, put single and explain how annulment work in the Philippines and thats it...
But that words are words, dont get affected on it, carry on planning the wedding, and after the wedding will gone up on your thoughts..promise Ady, lol

[Pepe n Pilar]

You may have missed it where I said; If the true status was reported to the UK Registrar General his advice would be the same as mine, but if you told him your marriage was annulled, as per UK law, he would say you are single.

If you told him the marriage had been dissolved (annulled Filipino style) he would not say show single.

To Johncar54,

The true status was reported to the UK Registrar and the advice is not the same as yours Johncar54...... The advice is to use single.

Yes the RG knows that previous marriage was annulled (Phil Law). They always do the double checking that is sending the papers to the Head Office. Even if you don't tell them they know that every country has different laws.


To Ady,
Go ahead of your plans. You might be confused here. Your fiancee should use the title of single because if she use the title of annulled then she will be called to affix her signature on the corrections to be made...

Best of luck!

[Mrs.JMajor]

I think they(the words) are refering to the church, because in PI once you get married and annuled, church wouldn't accept you to have the wedding there ??

because believer said" ang pinagbuklod ng diyos,di pwede paghiwalayin ng tao"

because the god is the one make the couple, so no one cant make them apart ano ba un

[johncar54]

Mrs J Major

You have hit the nail on the head.

If a marriage never happened (because of a number of things, like one of the parties was already married or the person carrying out the ceremony was not legally qualified to do so) it can recognised as annulled by the catholic church and then both parties can marry in the catholic church. This is the only kind of annulment (being null and void from the beginning) which is recognised as an annulment in UK law.

For practical purposes a civil marriage can take place in UK so long as both parties are free to marry, single(never married) single(divorced) single (marriage dissolved) single(Filipino annulment).-

So best wishes to all getting married.

[Pepe n Pilar]

"What therefore God has joined together, let no one put asunder." Mark 10:9

[Pepe n Pilar]

Mrs J Major

You have hit the nail on the head.

If a marriage never happened (because of a number of things, like one of the parties was already married or the person carrying out the ceremony was not legally qualified to do so) it can recognised as annulled by the catholic church and then both parties can marry in the catholic church. This is the only kind of annulment (being null and void from the beginning) which is recognised as an annulment in UK law.

For practical purposes a civil marriage can take place in UK so long as both parties are free to marry, single(never married) single(divorced) single (marriage dissolved) single(Filipino annulment).-

So best wishes to all getting married.

I think Ady was referring to the Registrar General statements therefore they will have a civil wedding not in the church. He just want to clarify if what status Shei has to use.

You diverted the issue to grounds for annulment. What are those that can be recognised as annulled by the Catholic Church.

Best wishes to Ady and Shei..

[johncar54]

Itsme

You diverted the issue to grounds for annulment. What are those that can be recognised as annulled by the Catholic Church.

I did not intend that.

I was trying to clarify what I had said previously as it appeared some contributors failed to understand what I meant. That was probably my fault not theirs.

My main theme was that if a person has in effect been legally married, they can never be correctly described as Single under UK law.

There is confusion in that the meaning of the word annulment in the UK and in Phil are different. Thus in UK one must use the UK meaning. If someone says, "My marriage was annulled." Then legally one would understand that to mean the marriage never took place in which case they are single. If one said, "My marriage was annulled in Philippines" for any reason other than one of those listed as being grounds in UK for an annulment, then they are in effect divorced. That is, if the 'annulment' had taken place in UK it would be a divorce not an annulment.


As for the reason for annulment accepted by the RC church, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment

wow (yawn yawn) this is getting so boring.

[bornatbirth]

you could of just posted the above in your first post and saved me having to read the rest of this thread?

theres some jumpy ladies around!

[johncar54]

you could of just posted the above in your first post and saved me having to read the rest of this thread? :

Thanks Bornabirth for demonstrating how some folks miss the meaning of posts.

If you read my first post here, No.8 you will see I did say it first time around.

Unfortunately some posters seemed not to understand and kept raising points, which appeared to me, to trying to disprove something I had said.

Yawn Yawn, hope finally that's it.


To save you checking back this what I said in No. 8.:-


In English law 'annulled' has only one meaning, the marriage never took place, thus it was never a marriage. In law it was void ab initio, or void from the beginning' Such a case would be where one of the parties was already married or where the person performing the marriage was not legally authorised to do so.

An annulment in the Philippines usually would the equivalent to a divorce in UK. in that the couple were legally married at sometime. It’s a sort of way around the Filipino law which does not permit something called divorce. However, a person with an annulment in the Philippines, who was legally married, cannot get married in the catholic church; a person whose ‘marriage’ has been declared void ab initio can, as they were never married.

For a person who has a Filipino annulment to declare themselves as single in UK would probably be incorrect. For example, when a divorced person gets married again, they are single but in law are divorced. To state single would not be a legal statement and probably could result in a prosecution.