Ouch, that's quite a strong statement........Originally Posted by Bluebirdjones
It would be hypocrisy to say i'm not offended by it,
but then again, that's your personal opinion and you are entitled to one, and i respect that...
I hope you do thesame........
"10% of life is made up of what happens to you, 90% is decided by how you react"
"The way to love anything is to realize that it may be lost"
I'd rather have a God that teaches me to love thy neighbour, than having none and be a heartless person...
why are you considered heartless unless we believe the same as you?
i could say your heartless for no other reason than i can write it!
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
Duly noted and aknowledged.....
Thanks for the thought....
We love you johnNot in a homo way or anything
But as a genuine nice guy
Group hugs all around
We love you John and thank you from the bottom of our hearts....
Very gentlemen of you!!!!
Thank you Aromulus, Tawi2 and Pepe N Pilar for your very kind comments. Yes hugs all round in a male bonding way - not homo way! Cheers!
As the days of Noah were so shall be the coming of the Son of Man........ When You see these things happening, know that the time is close.
Matthew 24 :
Check Out My Blogsite For Evidence Why The Bible Can Be Trusted
Thanks John,when I said I loved you it was as a geezer because you come across as a decent guy to be honest
Sometimes you're flush and sometimes you're bust, and when you're up, it's never as good as it seems, and when you're down, you never think you'll be up again. But life goes on.
The beauty of a woman is not in the clothes she wears, the figure that she carries, or the way she combs her hair. The beauty of a woman is seen in her eyes, because that is the doorway to her heart, the place where love resides. True beauty in a woman is reflected in her soul. It's the passion that she shows to the outside world.
Apollo is a real God, I seen it land on the Moon!
Keith - Administrator
You have better eyes than me then!Apollo is a real God, I seen it land on the Moon!
It's the big round white thing in the night sky.....appears a lot more than the big orange thingy during the day
Keith - Administrator
Didnt he appear in RockyApollo is a real God, I seen it land on the Moon!
Oh lord why did you make so many clothes and shoe shops
Proof: Scousers have evolved quicker at car theft than Mancs
Keith - Administrator
Proof: Socusers have evolved quicker at car theft than Mancs
Proof: Socusers have evolved quicker at car theft than MancsLol Mod, edit it
isnt the moon rocky?
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
Made of cheese or was it a button
Oh lord why did you make so many clothes and shoe shops
Hi Scouse, Tawi2 and everybody else. Greetings!
I am sorry I have not given my answers yet. I have been very busy. It is difficult to find enough time to respond to all the questions and criticisms. I would love to have the time. However, I do feel a bit overwhelmed by the response.
I do NOT believe that strong enough holes have been made to my argument. The answers are purely based on scientific theories and not proof, anyway.
The reason I began the thread in the first place was because I am tired of the way evolution and scientific theories are presented. As it is 200 years anniversary of Darwin I wanted to readdress the issue.
I was brought up believing that these theories were fact because this is the way it was presented. Even now (maybe much more) it is presented as if fact. For example the experiment to “recreate the conditions before the big bang”. Why didn’t they say something like “we want to experiment with the theory of the big bang” . Why do they say “a billion years ago this happened” They should be saying “it is our theory that a billion years ago this happened”. This is deliberately misleading people and is nothing less than deception ie not the whole truth. Quite honestly, if you accept the THEORY of evolution as fact why shouldn’t the creation viewpoint be equally valid and equally reasonable?
I would love to (when I have time) respond to all your questions because I do have answers, but I am actually wondering if I should respond, any more. It seems to me that my replies and material are not given serious consideration or thought. But instead the replies I get just mock us Christians spouting the teaching received from a godless society who want a reason and excuse not to believe in God.
However, I will answer one of the questions now.
How do I prove that God exists to those who choose to live lives in the dark? Well ….. It is like trying to prove to a person born blind and deaf that the sun is bright? I cannot, although he may sense things about the sun, eg the warmth but he cannot know for sure that it is bright and may even doubt that it exists but if his eyes were suddenly opened he would know for himself that the sun was bright and would know for sure it existed. That is what it is like. There is masses of evidence for those who truly want to know. I cannot prove to you that God exists if you refuse to know, but for those who seek Him with ALL their heart, they will find Him.
This is My testimony and why I know that He exists. I like most of you did not know whether God existed or not and certainly did not believe that the bible was trustworthy.
There came a day after seeking God, that Jesus showed me how much He loved me. He gave me a revelation of the cross and why He had to die for MY sins. He showed me that He suffered willingly for MY sins because He loved me. He poured His love into my heart. My hardened selfish/unloving heart was melted by His love. From that moment on my eyes were opened and I could hear clearly. He changed me from the inside. It was like a river washing my soul. I felt clean. From that moment I knew the bible was trustworthy.
Since that time I have been taught by His Holy Spirit (within). I just knew that God existed and that (because Jesus was alive) He spoke to men of old, inspiring them to speak and write His words accurately. Therefore, what may seem to be contradictions or errors cannot be but MUST have some explanation somewhere. As time has gone by I have found virtually all of these so-called errors to not be errors at all, as archaeology or understanding the culture etc or understanding the context in which things are written, become clearer the more I read the bible. Also when we see all the prophecies of the bible being fulfilled precisely, it is further evidence that the bible is trustworthy. For those who are truly interested I could say much about why the bible is trustworthy..
However, I did previously say that I would not respond to questions unless the criticisms or questions showed evidence that you had read my material or the material on http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers web page. In fact all the criticisms can be answered on that site. They base their teaching and experiments based on scientific discoveries made in our day, which prove that fossils etc can be produced much quicker than imagined. This is not just theory, they have examined the evidence of things happening before our very eyes. This is REAL science, actual proof as it happens, rather than theorising on something which may or may not have happened a long time ago (before any of us were alive). I am yet to read any replies solid enough to criticise what AIG have said. Why give criticisms until the material I send is digested first?
As the days of Noah were so shall be the coming of the Son of Man........ When You see these things happening, know that the time is close.
Matthew 24 :
Check Out My Blogsite For Evidence Why The Bible Can Be Trusted
John Chingford quoted ......How do I prove that God exists to those who choose to live lives in the dark?
It is light in my room here right now, thank you!
John Chingford quoted....masses of evidence for those who truly want to know.
As I said before, we don't WANT to know at ANY time, why do you persist in trying to tell some people things they have absolutely no wish to waste time on?
John Chingford quoted....I cannot prove to you that God exists if you refuse to know, but for those who seek Him with ALL their heart, they will find Him.
So, why bother? We do not "refuse", we have BETTER things to spend our time on.
John Chingford quoted....This is My testimony and why I know that He exists.
Exists? Where, when, how? And why "He" ???
John Chingford quoted....I like most of you did not know whether God existed or not and certainly did not believe that the bible was trustworthy.
Lots of us never bother reading it, we are TOO BUSY
John Chingford quoted....Since that time I have been taught by His Holy Spirit (within). I just knew that God existed and that (because Jesus was alive)
Where? Is he on his second cuppa now? LOL
Now, you do know the meaning of the word "Alive" don't you John?
So post a photo of him then, or at least tell everyone where "he" is having "his" breakfast today...
John Chingford quoted....For those who are truly interested I could say much about why the bible is trustworthy..
WHY DON'T YOU GET IT JOHN, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED, NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST?
THERE IS NO GOD, NO JESUS.
WHEN WE DIE THERE IS NOTHING ELSE.
END OF STORY.
I AND MANY OTHERS ARE HAPPY WITH THESE STATEMENTS
The majority of Geology is FACT.
Visit the Grand Canyon and take a look at 2 billion years worth.....and don't say it was made by a flood in the last 6,000 years....even to a simpleton, that just wouldn't add up as we know the rate a river cuts through rock.
Also you questioned carbon dating, that is FACT. Proof is simple. I guess you know what an atomic clock is? It works by by measuring the frequency of the microwave levels given off by caesium atoms, and is accurate to around 10(-10)...(add on 10 zero's). We measure that easily, and you can see how accurate it is yourself by looking not only at the time of atomic clocks, the most reliable on the planet, but also GPS, your TV frequencies, etc
What does that have to do with radiocarbon dating? Well it is MUCH easier to measure decay of carbon-14, than the frequency of caesium atoms at a unit of 10,000,000,000
All this is FACT otherwise atomic clocks would be incorrect, unreliable, GPS would not work, and you'd have no pictures on your TV....you can see it working with your own eyes.
Even the creationist scientists have given up trying to disprove it, and they'd been working on it since 1997!!!
Keith - Administrator
Having just stumbled upon this "debate" I confess I have not had time to read every post, but enough to get the flavour. It has started my day with a laugh. Those who seriously propose a creationist theory deserve the ridicule handed out here. This is one of those "self evident" matters. Evolution makes sense. All the evidence supports that sense. The story of creation was written by primative men to try to explain where everything came from at a time when they did not have our knowledge. That there are those who wish to try to make facts out of such out dated theories says much more about them than it does about the therories they propose, which are clear nonesense to most of us. What is sad is that accepting evolution as a fact, and accepting that the Bible is a work of fiction rather than the word of "God", does not actually make the slightest difference to whether you can believe in a higher being or not. It just changes the basis for that belief and modernises it in the light of our ever growing knowledge. I feel a little sorry for those who are so wrapped up in their own pet therories that they cannot see the wood for the trees.
John,
I took your advice and clicked on the link….
… but I decided to delve a little deeper into the people behind this sham.
I see that the Australian Ken Ham is the president and founder of Answers in Genesis-U.S.
Some “history” of him ……
In 1979, Ham co-founded what was to be later known as the Creation Science Foundation (CSF) in Queensland, Australia with John Mackay. Controversy arose when Mackay "was excommunicated in the 1980s after making allegations of witchcraft and necrophilia against a fellow member of the ministry".
In 1994, with the assistance of what is now Creation Ministries Int’l (Australia), he set up Answers in Genesis …….. in May 2007, (CMI) filed a lawsuit in the Supreme Court of Queensland seeking damages and accusing him of deceptive conduct in his dealings with the Australian organization. Members of the ministry were "concern[ed] over Mr Ham's domination of the ministries, the amount of money being spent on his fellow executives and a shift away from delivering the creationist message to raising donations."
Some statements from Ken Ham…
"If you disagree with what I'm going to say, please do not give me your opinion, because I'm not interested...
"Although racism did not begin with Darwinism, Darwin did more than any person to popularize it."
Since 1989, Ham has frequently made the comment, "Were you there?" regarding the origins of life and evolution, seeming to imply that knowledge of unwitnessed events is inferential and not observational.
Other’s views
Ham's beliefs and tactics have also been criticized by other Christians and creationists. Answers in Creation web site, has called Ham willfully ignorant of evidence for an old earth and said that he "deliberately misleads" his audiences on matters of both science and theology.
The Creation Museum has been the subject of controversy ever since it was proposed, because the exhibits are based on a young Earth creationist view of the origins of the universe and life. Local opposition caused the construction approval process to take several years. During construction Professor Lord Robert Winston Medical doctor, scientist) visited the site of the museum and remarked, “I admit I was dismayed by what I saw at the Ken Ham museum. It was alarming to see so much time, money and effort being spent on making a mockery of hard won scientific knowledge. And the fact that it was being done with such obvious sincerity, somehow made it all the worse”.
… additionally….. Educators criticizing the museum include the National Center for Science Education. The NCSE collected over 800 signatures from scientists in the three states closest to the museum (Kentucy, Indiana, and Ohio) on the following statement: "We, the undersigned scientists at universities and colleges in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana, are concerned about scientifically inaccurate materials at the Answers in Genesis museum. Students who accept this material as scientifically valid are unlikely to succeed in science courses at the college level. These students will need remedial instruction in the nature of science, as well as in the specific areas of science misrepresented by Answers in Genesis."
…..just got back from Leicester listening to Ken Ham talk about creationism this Thursday evening…. but it became clear during the talk that Ken Ham’s version is smoke and mirrors…...All the videos depended on the audience going “Wow, how amazing, so complex, there had to be a God”…… the leaps being made within seconds of one association over the other were breathtaking and liquid refreshment was needed to get over the nerve of someone that was prepared to say that they loved science and yet could pretend that the facts supported that the earth was thousands of years old and their view of Christianity.
I’ll let other decide who’s being "duped".
No man is an island, but Barry is
I continue this thread because I have been challenged by BlueBirdJones. I cannot leave the debate the way it is without responding.
Thankyou BlueBirdJones for at least taking some time to check out the site. I respect you for that! As you took the time to do this, I will reply to you.
Did you read and listen to just bits and pieces or the whole articles to get it in full context. Did you go to AIG with an open mind or did you go there simply to: find reasons to criticise it, check out the organisation, find out what anti creationists have to say about it?
It is easy to quote from a consensus of people who are anti. I could also choose a selection of pro comments if I wanted to. Just giving one side of the argument is unbalanced reporting. Your quotes are from people who are biased in what they say. Biased people tend to exaggerate or not always tell the truth and misrepresent what a person or organisation says or does. Surely you know what the media is like? If you want to know what an organisation is actually saying you should examine what THEY are saying, thoroughly – not just a few excerpts.
Quite honestly the quotes are mere opinion and conjecture, based on those who have been duped from childhood to believe what they have been told. These opinions are based on a collection of biased pieces of evidence, whilst choosing to reject any other evidence to support a God who created everything.. They reject these evidences because it does not fit in with the theories they want to uphold. I guess we can ALL do that.
You also state that over 800 signatures were taken opposing AIG. Come on! Just because 800 anti-creationist people signed a petition is NO proof that AIG are wrong. It just means that they are opposed. They could be completely biased.
It is feasible that I could get millions of signatures from Christians (of course equally biased) who would be supportive of AIG. Even if the majority believed something it does not prove it is right. By the way, atheists are easily the minority group in the world, but maybe in the highest percentage amongst British people. The rest of the world hates Britain (check out the political voting at Eurovision song contest for example) because of our arrogant attitude. Our attitude tends to be: “If the majority of BRITAIN believes it, IT must be right because WE are more educated therefore know more than the rest of the world”.
As the days of Noah were so shall be the coming of the Son of Man........ When You see these things happening, know that the time is close.
Matthew 24 :
Check Out My Blogsite For Evidence Why The Bible Can Be Trusted
The rest of the world hates Britain (check out the political voting at Eurovision song contest for example)
I cannot believe you’ve written this !
If this “theory” is to be believed, (like the other nonsence theories u believe in) then the fact that Germany has only won on one occasion (1982), is something to do with Europeans still punishing them for their Nazi past ?
…. And all of European hates Portugal (who’ve never won) ?
… and Ireland won on those many occasions as a punishment for Britain “occupying” Northern Ireland ? … mmmm ….
(Oh yes, I remember the headlines at the time … “Eurovision juries boycott Britain’s entry to force British troops out of Ulster”).
Actually John, I think it’s more to do with the crap songs (… as if anyone in Britain really cares)
I’ll reply to the rest when I’ve stopped laughing and managed to strap myself back into my chair.
No man is an island, but Barry is
Get a life, you do not speak for the rest of us.........What is this forum becoming?
Heavenly
Keith - Administrator
Recovered a little so ......
Your quotes are from people who are biased in what they say. Biased people tend to exaggerate
So …. if it’s written or spouted by Ken Ham, it’s TRUE…. whereas all other views are biased and UNTRUE.
the quotes are mere opinion and conjecture, based on those who have been duped from childhood…
such as Lord Professor Lord Robert Winston who graduated from The London Hospital Medical College, University of London, in 1964 with a degree in medicine and achieved prominence as an expert in human fertility. On returning to academic medicine, he developed tubal microsurgery and various techniques in reproductive surgery, including sterilization reversal. He was a scientific advisor to the World Health Organisation's programme in human reproduction from 1975 to 1977. Together with Carol Readhead from the California Institute of Technology he is currently researching male germ cell stem cells and methods for their genetic modification, and he has published over 300 scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals ?????
It makes the mind boggle to think on what he could have actually achieved if he hadn’t been duped all those years ago !
….. whereas your mate, your mucka, your mentor, Ken Ham has a bachelor's degree in applied science (with an emphasis on environmental biology) from the Queensland Institute of Technology and for his contributions to evangelism, he has been granted two honorary degrees (by Temple Baptist College in 1997 and by Liberty University in 2004.
Finally…
Just because 800 anti-creationist people signed a petition is NO proof that AIG are wrong. It just means that they are opposed. They could be completely biased.
If you’d actually read it, it says …” We, the (800) undersigned scientists at universities and colleges in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana”.
So… 800 scientists who teach, lecture, research in 3 US States are biased, deluded, wrong ?
By the way, I see that AIG’s income/revenues for yr-ending 2007 was US$17.2mln.
Can u give us a breakdown of what this figure was spent on ?
No man is an island, but Barry is
I think if you are talking a numbers game, then Christians are also in a minority group, but as you say that does not mean you must cede to Islam.
I am not sure the rest of the world hates Britain, but the resentment that is clearly there in many countries has more to do with our Imperial past and misguided recent military venture into Iraq with the US (especially in terms of our European neighbours) than an inherent arrogant attitude. Most nationalities think they are best – it is a natural attitude and often stoked by governments – like in the US and Russia.
Non-believers such as myself think that believers are deluding themselves, just as you see us as ‘being in the dark’. But mostly we don’t trumpet our opinion, and only make it known when we get irritated by the constant infringement of organised religion and their adherents broadcasting their views and making judgements upon others at every opportunity. I find non-believers generally more open-minded than the religious – our doubt allows for it, whereas the certainty of faith often does not.
I think there is something to say about the British as a nation being better informed than many parts of the world. I think it is not down to arrogance but to advantages in terms of access to information and education, and a relatively free press that is not available to the masses in some countries. If you are insinuating that the rest of the world hates us because we are secular, I think you are completely mistaken.
A Swedish consultant I work with once alluded to this ‘arrogance’. He told me with a grin. ‘People in every country in Europe think that they are the best. Except the British who know they are’.
SJ
We are all dignifying this "debate" by contributing to it. I cannot believe that there can be many others who agree with him but if they do then they must all be very impressionable and probably in need of some form of counselling. It is not often that you can say with total certainty that something is wrong, but this has to be one of them. A more interesting discussion is not whether this "therory" has any merit, as it is nonsense, but why the creationists, and their type, manage to have the influence they do in the USA. I am constantly amazed that a country as developed economically remains so backward in other ways. I spent quite a lot of time with several American guys whilst I was over wintering in Cebu this year and they were perfectly good company on a social level but as soon as the conversation got around to politics, world poverty, religion or similar subjects they displayed breathtaking ignorance and arrogance whilst maintaining a superior attitude that we Brits knew nothing any more.
We haven't even proven that we actually exist yet. You may think you observe yourself in a mirror and other things around you but how do you prove they actaully exist?
Saying because you see them doesn't wash, as you may think you see them, same for touch, you may think you touch something, but this is only your senses telling you, no outside proof is telling you, and if you think it is, maybe it is only your thinking that makes you think that is proof.
Keith - Administrator
Pleased I read this, or maybe I haven't read it
Can anyone else see this.
JOHN and VANESSA
I thought I could but now I have my doubts and I haven't even been to the pub yet! By 11.30 I am sure I won't know. Does beer exist? This is getting serious. Better go now.Pleased I read this, or maybe I haven't read it
Can anyone else see this.
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