exam results

[joebloggs]

We all know paper mcse certs holders etc.

I think them days are well gone Andy, i think they ended around 2000 when Ms changed to adaptive testing. cannot just download the questions and answers like in the days of mcse nt4

but at least a mcse is more useful than a degree if your applying for a job in IT support etc.

Andy this country does NVQ's, there are many here studying them, filipinos coming to the UK to do NVQ's, and you know its being abused as cheap labour and illegal working by dodgy colleges above your local take away.

sure the gov should use a combination of nvq's, apprenticeships and uni degrees to educate the school leavers, but i don't think its up to the gov to tell you what you can or can't do. equal opportunities for all, but i don't think all kids would want to go to uni, many want out of school and start earning some money, and yes, don't forget these school leavers will have to pay your pension, so you should want the best for them

[RickyR]

Just to clarify, I'm not against a university education. As 'Somebody' said, it's all about what degree is being studied, what it is worth and how will it be used. But doing a degree in History just for the sake of having a degree, isn't a good enough reason to justify 4 years and tens of the thousands of pounds.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that everyone take a career at sea, its worked for me and just to mention that unlike Filipino Seafarers I normally work 1 month on / 1 month off (Filipino working conditions unfortunately are still catching up) which enables a lot of quality time with my family.

I think encouraging and supporting careers as Electricians, Plumbers and any other trade should be encouraged in schools. Taking an apprenticeship shouldn't be looked down up on. Unfortunately the focus in schools is that everyone should do the same, and there seems to be a strong focus on people becoming IT programmers or business management.

Then again in IT, as has been mentioned earlier, the best programmers I have met are people who knew C++ and Visual Basic at 14 years old, and were working in IT at 18 having never been to Uni. On the flip side, I've met people who have done degrees in IT and can write software which looks fine, but has to debugged by someone who actually understands the code. I'm not saying that a degree in IT isn't the way forward, but it isn't the answer in every case.

The Education system needs changes, but will that happen?

[somebody]

I think them days are well gone Andy, i think they ended around 2000 when Ms changed to adaptive testing. cannot just download the questions and answers like in the days of mcse nt4

but at least a mcse is more useful than a degree if your applying for a job in IT support etc.

Andy this country does NVQ's, there are many here studying them, filipinos coming to the UK to do NVQ's, and you know its being abused as cheap labour and illegal working by dodgy colleges above your local take away.

sure the gov should use a combination of nvq's, apprenticeships and uni degrees to educate the school leavers, but i don't think its up to the gov to tell you what you can or can't do. equal opportunities for all, but i don't think all kids would want to go to uni, many want out of school and start earning some money, and yes, don't forget these school leavers will have to pay your pension, so you should want the best for them

Nope plenty of people brain dumping still Mate trust me. Still have drones who come off boot camps with no prectical experience think all we want is someone who has crammed and passed an exam or two. Adaptive makes it tougher but not impossible to be coacheed though them.


Regarding the younger generation doing well

Exactly I want them to do well and the forcing people into schemes to fix targets take them off the dole or what have yuou really bugs me.

I know there are NVq's and plenty of other options other than the typical degree which will never suit all but way to many pupils are pressured into them.
The goverment shouldn't tell you what to do but it does seem pressure and spin is put on various levels of the education system for headlines

As well the school leaver possibly paying my state pension like me they should have there own one or some form of savings from early age.Are you aware of the huge issue of student loans, seen way to many people still burdened with the debt years later and often they didn't get a result which made the pain worth it. This are the ones who often have to put off saving in a pension scheme. They will burden the country far more surely?

Many who started the schemes when trainees or college leavers now i know have a decent pension pot sometimes very decent one as their wages have gone up and many are now self employed or owners of Business Employing others They also didn't waste huge amounts of goverment money in attempting to keep up with the joneses or ensure schools sent enough pupils off to uni

We have trainee Field engineers in another department they have degree holders in there and plenty who just went to college or straight from school. From the three different groups there is no particular pattern from what I can see.

The company wants people with a good attitude, mechnical and electrical know how. But mostly they want them to be trained up in the way they want them to work.

Now I know after a few years many are on 25-30k plus then of course regional allowances and good benefits. Chance of progression blah blah
So what is the point if a Pupil ask the careers advisor ( i remeber asking one "helping " me while at school what she had doen in the past a lot of mumbling happened ) who says oh yeah but look with your grades you may just clear at a uni in this degree not a popular uni or not many takers for the course "but your have a degree" Go on try it, even if its for the experience

So the pupil goes off changes course to media studies as they offered him a place after a year as not for him eventually passes the course but nothing special and needs a job. Theres a recession on the public services no longer require people with a degree any degree.
So the pupil relies at their school qualfications which were technolgy based and gets on a trainee scheme. They find themsleves selected due to doing well in the assements. They get a trainee pay rate which means they can pay off the student loan but not great.
A friend at school joined the trainee scheme at 18 now is fully qualified and earning a decent wage no debt imposed on them and able to bulid there life much quicker. Due to starting earlier in the career they pick up things quickly ready to adapt not set in there ways. Move on to managment.

The orignal pupil four/five years older and of course he has a degree much wiser doesn't find it so easy to pick up things or be told what to do. He has a degree those supervising/mentoring him for example his old class mate dont.

Do I know of examples of this maybe not people from the same school but plenty of Engineers in our company who are doing ok wish they had not been advised when they knew there path go on get a degree it will make you a better person.

[joebloggs]

and how long would someone last andy with a paper mcse ? a day , i'm sure the numbers are nothing like they were around 2000, when you could take all your exams in 1wk and memorise 200 questions on each and pass

sure going to uni for the sake of it is not a good idea, but even if you think a history degree is useless, it shows in the majority of cases that the student can at least study, read and write at a higher level than a school leaver who doesn't. try a level 3 course at uni and see the standard required.

as for programming, i was one of them kids, at 18-21 i was earning a lot more money then, then i do now. but someone who has been to uni will have studied the boring theory side, something self taught ones will not be bothered doing, such as programming techniques to minimize bugs and be able to write a structured program, like JSP - showing my age .


you need the theory so you reduce the risk of something up, and yes it all becomes experience, something you cannot buy, and it takes time . that's why i'm sure if 2 people had the same experience and one had a degree, the one with a degree would get the job, but if one person had a degree and no experience and another had experience of the job, the one with just the experience would probably get the job.

and i'm sure being at sea is a great life and adventure, but once your wed, with kids, then for me, they would come first.

[Peanutz]

Most millionaires and successful people has been dropped off from Uni

[somebody]

and how long would someone last andy with a paper mcse ? a day , i'm sure the numbers are nothing like they were around 2000, when you could take all your exams in 1wk and memorise 200 questions on each and pass

sure going to uni for the sake of it is not a good idea, but even if you think a history degree is useless, it shows in the majority of cases that the student can at least study, read and write at a higher level than a school leaver who doesn't. try a level 3 course at uni and see the standard required.

as for programming, i was one of them kids, at 18-21 i was earning a lot more money then, then i do now. but someone who has been to uni will have studied the boring theory side, something self taught ones will not be bothered doing, such as programming techniques to minimize bugs and be able to write a structured program, like JSP - showing my age .


you need the theory so you reduce the risk of something up, and yes it all becomes experience, something you cannot buy, and it takes time . that's why i'm sure if 2 people had the same experience and one had a degree, the one with a degree would get the job, but if one person had a degree and no experience and another had experience of the job, the one with just the experience would probably get the job.

and i'm sure being at sea is a great life and adventure, but once your wed, with kids, then for me, they would come first.

Many people who had certs used to get bumped higher in the ranks for a job as it was all points scoring certainly at our workplace. We found it was costing a fortune in retraining or simply then trying to get rid of those who simply couldn't hack it (sacking a person is not that easy or cheap as you know)
So like Many places we may ask for those with qualifications but we ask those with evidence based cv's to apply.

If we needed a person for a team leader, supervisor or junior manager for example we may ask to see qualifications but we also look for those with team leader skills possibly developed outside.
Competency based interviewing if done and in depth checks and tests done you can prove people can do what they claim. You also don’t think oh he has a business management degree and this other guy doesn't but has all the technical skills and experience of the company just because he has developed real world team leader and management skills he is any worse.

That’s why if they program or create things such as websites. We ask them to show us examples and then ask them to write or comment on existing lines of text or website. To see if they really can.

Many from the fresh out of Uni and no experience whether in the bedroom or in a charity job creating/admining the charities website. Would waffle on a lot but often not give us the responses we would expect. The guy who has actually done it we would ensure can do what we ask. Would you not give them the same opportunities?

It certainly beats relying on CV's, qualifications, and a couple of interviews.

I’m not involved so much but the apps writing team we have are a mixed bunch while many have degrees some have moved over from departments and are self taught. The ones I deal with if i need their assistance are normally the ones who are self taught it seems they are more opened minded and ready to take on more challenges. Why I don’t know but they are more can do.
I do know that they simply would not have got the job if they didn't produce the goods, while possibly the uni trained ones rely on techniques they learned at uni who knows possibly had to much help in getting it right?
Also From experience I know that in all levels of my Education when creating I.T based projects it was not about always completing the project but documenting that you could you may not get an A grade but definitely a pass or even a B. But we both know what people think on paper may work and what actually happens are very different.
Those who had to develop skills outside of education generally have to actually make a working product otherwise your like well you can’t do it can you.

I know the point of Degrees but don’t rely on it solely make sure you can show what you actually can do and be able to prove it