exam results

[RickyR]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were

One mother said her daughter had been removed from school after being accused of wearing the wrong trousers, another that her son had been permanently expelled for smoking.

A father claimed his son had been sent home for walking the wrong way down the corridor, another that his 16-year-old daughter was kicked out after getting a kiss from her boyfriend at the school gates. And underlying it all was a feeling that Trinity, the third state funded secondary to be run by an evangelical Christian and friend of Tony Blair, Sir Peter Vardy, was pushing an aggressive religious agenda. Cindy Denise, whose two children are both at Trinity, claimed pupils were disciplined if they did not carry the Bible on certain days and summed up the mood at the meeting, describing the school as "a complete joke". "They are kicking children out for nothing and won't listen to anyone who wants to know what is going on."

The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article

Trinity Academy in Thorne said it had nearly doubled the number of pupils achieving at least one A-level pass, from 44 in 2008 to a record 73 today. It also reported a record number of students heading to university with more than two-thirds of its passes at grade C or higher.

Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/ma...litics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/D...ove.5572290.jp

[les_taxi]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were



The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article



Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/ma...litics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/D...ove.5572290.jp

yep thats what my original post was all about

[somebody]

The education system is fundamentally flawed because the government thinks only of 'one size fits all' kind of system and also because of the failure to support the teachers and schools.
The schools which are successful are criticised. I live in Doncaster, a town where many of the outlying villages saw a dramatic rise in unemployment after the pit closures many years ago and still hasn't recovered fully. The behavioral issues that exist even at a young age in the schools is something the government doesn’t' want to face up to. Then along come the new 'Academies' which are part private funded and part state funded, but operated completely independent from the government. The parent’s criticisms when this school opened in 2006 were



The parents don't want to face up to the responsibility of their children’s behavior, so the schools must be given the authority to take a hardliner attitude. The parents and pupils will get upset, but it works. ZERO TOLERENCE. You don't need corporal punishment, that’s only when you've failed or the pupil is probably beyond the point they can be improved.

A few days ago, the Academy released this article



Bear in mind, this is only 2 years later, and this is one of the most deprived areas in the UK! The results tell the story...

Well, how about my story... When I was 18 I wasn't interested in going university despite my parents urging me too. Mostly I wasn't interested in doing a course without seeing the relevance in it. Instead I decided to take a Merchant Navy Officer Cadetship. My friends who were going to University laughed, "what on earth will you ever achieve in a job like that..." they said. So off they went to University, took courses in Business Management and similar themes.
Now I'm 24 and of the group of 5 friends I went to school with who all went to university; 3 of them are unemployed and the other 2 are in jobs much less grand than they were dreaming of 6 years ago.
For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

How about these so called 'Mickey Mouse' degrees? These 'quasi-academic degrees' such as Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses give absolutely nothing to society, and I personally would be embarrassed to have them on my CV!!!!!!!
What on earth would an employer say to these?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/ma...litics.schools

http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/D...ove.5572290.jp

Word.

All the new breed of career MP's and cvill servants who went to uni think everyone should go.

Its a waste for many, we need people to have more real world Experience and practical skills.

Although some of the acadmies we have links with at my firm sometimes i feel could do better for the pupils they are
improving as they go along. Mainly by getting employers in who help suggest what skills and knowledge they are looking for.

Also helps when a pupil is told that they wouldn't get a job by an actual potential employer rather than a teacher seen a few
suddenly find more urgency once that happens.

[joebloggs]

For myself I work 6 months a year and earn around 5 times as much as my Dad was earning after being a school teacher for 30 years! (After being very reluctant to support my desire for a career to sea, he's completely turned around his view). I have to admit, it wasn't easy at the start with 7 month trips working 6 on/6 off in the offshore oil fields of Angola. I was given the worst jobs onboard from cleaning sewage tanks, cleaning boilers to scrubbing the holds of a 40,000 t ship. The only consolation was that the aged Captain and Chief Mate giving me the job had done the very same jobs many years ago and would always chirp 'you need to know how hard these jobs are son, otherwise how could you ever give other people these jobs when your an officer...'

So what is wrong with University system, are there too many people coming out of university? Do employers value a degree anymore? Do employers actually understand what is on the CV in front of them, when the system seems to change so frequently?

my misses brother in law has worked on ships for many years, (misses thinks he might be a 1st mate or an officer of some sort) he gets paid well, but he's away 6 months' of the year,so he's missed his kids growing up and it has caused some problems with his relationship with his wife. so that's the sacrifice he has paid to bring home a good wage, but time is one thing money cannot buy you.

labour party want more students going to uni, which i think i read somewhere they have achieved, especially more working class kids.

money is not everything, you might get paid well but hate your job, or get paid but like what you do. i suppose you have to find a balance, but a degree with get your foot in the door, experience with probably get you the job.

i think some people who **** off degrees haven't been to uni, so maybe some jelly belly there

good you got where you did, but were all not the same

[somebody]

my misses brother in law has worked on ships for many years, (misses thinks he might be a 1st mate or an officer of some sort) he gets paid well, but he's away 6 months' of the year,so he's missed his kids growing up and it has caused some problems with his relationship with his wife. so that's the sacrifice he has paid to bring home a good wage, but time is one thing money cannot buy you.

labour party want more students going to uni, which i think i read somewhere they have achieved, especially more working class kids.

money is not everything, you might get paid well but hate your job, or get paid but like what you do. i suppose you have to find a balance, but a degree with get your foot in the door, experience with probably get you the job.

i think some people who **** off degrees haven't been to uni, so maybe some jelly belly there

good you got where you did, but were all not the same

Degrees like vocational courses have there uses. The current regime goverment/cvill service whoever think we need lots of people who have studied a degree any degree.

We need Technicans, we need Craftspeople we need people with practical skills.

Joe seriously Like Ricky I know plenty of people of various ages who in the nineties and noughties went to Uni wasted some time there and got no degree or a poor degree or switched to a "easier Degree" or qualfication. Also plenty who did post gradute. For the amount of investment 5-10-15 years later the career path they have taken does not justify the time, money and effort.

It maybe their choice/right but from the country's pespective its not clever sending huge amounts of people to Uni to do courses which they for various reasons are going to not achieve the best for them, industry private or public, or the country.

I was told by one young man who was working with our company on work experience who is the first to admit is not very academic but very practical minded and wants some sort of Engineer/craftsman role was told by some careers advisor he should consider University as he can achieve so much more.

Firstly a well paid Engineer/craftsman will earn far more than many a paper shuffler. Secondly the guy needs more hands on experience not learn how to write reports which being honest is just not his bag.

When he looked for practical courses the choice is very limited to the huge amount of academic courses.

I think Ricky like me knows you need people with good acadmeic skills you need scientists, doctors, even lawyers. But we need people with various skills surely?

Look at the academies many are teaching far more pratical/vocational skills. Why because the people who will employ or possibly hire tradespeople or crafts people know there are huge shortages. People with a so so Degree or one in a subject not required are ten a penny..

Look at the current crisis in many areas apart from the west midlands which manufacturing has been battered due to the lack of credit etc. In many comuter towns the ones who suppy the major towns and cities with office workers are the ones really being hit. Some commuter belt towns have levels of employment never seen. But I still see adverts for skilled crafts people.

Like in the private sector once the public sector have to reduce costs, local authorities and cvill service departments are surely going to reduce admin staff (more likely to be degree holders) but front line staff (less likely to be degree holders) who are needed to reach targets or bring in income etc. Will be less effected..

[joebloggs]

We need Technicans, we need Craftspeople we need people with practical skills.

apprenticeships hardly exist any more.

and where will they come from andy if it's not thru uni ? do you mean the practical skills gained by many Filipinos here, who applied for a student visa to do a nvq 'working' in a care home while 'studying' at 'joe bloggs' college

you might not use the knowledge you gained from your degree in the job you do, but the employer knows at least you had the capacity to pass your degree, something some school leavers couldn't do.

everyone is different andy, so what if you end up as a manager at mc dons with your arts degree if that's what you want to do

[Tawi2]

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[maria_and_matt]

I made a few quid,not in a way any of you have ever done I shouldnt think,but my kid has had it drummed into him from the off that he needs to go to Uni,I always wanted to go,my dad was old school 18 years in the navy and 20 years in the prison service,he always told me "Dont be stupid,forget university and get a real job"Sadly I followed his adviceI want my kid to have a decent Uni degree,he wants to be a Vet thankfully,but education is something that cant be taken away from us,unlike posessions,cash etc,its got a better value than anything monetary

very well said , my son thankfully is aware that in order to get a decent job he needs to go uni, at 15 he still has not made up his mind what to do, but he's got his heart set at either being a barrister ( he is thinking how he would be like if he has to defend a guilty person) or a games developer ( he sure has the imagination to be one).

[Tawi2]

.

[somebody]

apprenticeships hardly exist any more.

and where will they come from andy if it's not thru uni ? do you mean the practical skills gained by many Filipinos here, who applied for a student visa to do a nvq 'working' in a care home while 'studying' at 'joe bloggs' college

you might not use the knowledge you gained from your degree in the job you do, but the employer knows at least you had the capacity to pass your degree, something some school leavers couldn't do.

everyone is different andy, so what if you end up as a manager at mc dons with your arts degree if that's what you want to do

Thats the point we need more Apprenticeships and vocational course. Degrees are needed but not 60-70 percent of the nations students surely?

What uni course should a plumber/sparky going on maybe later he or she may want to do a degree if they go in to managment but learning to write flash reports wont help them in the early days.
Before you say there are plenty of apprenticeships avaiable there are not.

Many of my managers and directors were apprentices or went to on some vocational course.

As I mentioned before when i'm involved in employing people from trainnees to highly specialised IT experts. Im not intrested in if they can pass an exam, I want to know what they retain from it, what skills they have. Could they manage people, can they manage themsleves.

Rarely do I find people to work in projects or ongoing operations. where handing in some paperwork and then rememebering facts and formulas etc for an exam are the required requirments. So while a indicator the person has some intelligence and what not. There is far more required.

A huge cost to our is finding people is retraining people once they are employed. I know how our engineering department before we started the extra testing had to constantly fill the gaps in new candidates basic skills and make allowances while they catch.

We had Electronic engineers with a bsc after their name who couldn't use test equipment, unable solder or perform hands on work in general! Compuer science gradutes who can't code the list could go on.

The degrees they do seem to try and cram into much and worried to much about teaching them how to aim for the top. They forget you need to move on need to in many careers do the basics correctly first. Also not evryone can be the leader. Everyone finds there level, sorry 70 percent of the youth of england cant all be managment surely?
So why dont they give them the skills to get going the rest they can learn as they go along as the theory for the managment side will be out of date or they will have forgotten how to write the long report.

Lets face Joe very few phills would come here degree holders or not if econmonic factors were not involved. As we both know many are highly skilled and qualified like you, I know some of them personally. But many do gain practical skills and experience then move onto nursing etc and stay in the UK or move on.

A lot of the people teaching staff and careers advisors seem to think anything but a degree is of no use. That they must always try and make the pupil feel good and manual work/engineering for example why do that. Why be a nurse when you can be a doctor. Also ways good to aim high but you need to be a realist and ensure they reach at least a basic level
Chucking them on a degree course and them either failling or that their degree mark so poor they wasted their time is crueler surely? Now they are three or four years behind their peers.

Plenty of school friends got to a certain level gcse, a level, btec diploma or hnd and they never needed a degree. Others took the trainnee or apprenticeship route and worked there way to a satisfying career.
Many have exceeded the ones who went the degree route.

No one soultion fits all