help please

[marlyn&kenny]

I am a british citizan born here. I was told by a visa consultancy i would not get a visa for my darling wife to be ( a natural born philippino ) They said its because we have only spent 10 days together then nearly 1 year appart because she went to work in kuwait.We love each other dearly and said after one year working appart we will get together and get maried. So i said ok we wont go for fiance spouse visa but a visitors visa !! He then said she would not get that to. We are heart broken.He said its because she cannot show she wil return ie by having a job there or buisiness or strong family comitment. So now our plan is for me to go to the phils for 1 month. While there i will marry her and be a proud husband.THen we wil go to the embassy and hope to get a visa for her to return. WE think this wil work!! Help guys ?? WE have all the stuff we need but one area remains uncertain. The money or finances !! Obviously its going to cost me a lot of money to go there get married then the 585 visa fee to the ebassy. Her flight back to the phils from kuwait, and her flight to uk if they grant her visa. So my bank acount will maybe have only 1000 pounds savings left after all this. Will they acsept this as enought to take care of her when she comes to uk ??? The other thing is i buy and sel cars as a sideline and a lot of the money is from selling of cars i have stood. So my bank account will zoom from minimul savings to over 4500 savings as i sel of two cars i dont need. Some say they want regular savings across the six months payslips ?? and even though i have a 1500 pounds overdraught i can use, i mist not show any of the six months payslips in overdraught ??Help me please on the money side ? what is exactly needed ?? My p60 states i made nearly 28,000 last tax year.Help us build our loving life together guys. god bless. kenny.

[ginapeterb]

Kenny

People are going to be reluctant to read your post when you group it together in only 1 paragraph, for anyone remotely trying to assist you, they will become disinterested when they see how you have written your request.

Secondly, your spelling mistakes do not help, if you re-write your post, I will read it, until then, I refuse to trawl through it and de-cypher what you have tried to ask.

[marlyn&kenny]

My apolagees, sory i am dyslexic and yes my grammer is terible and spelling to. Nothing i can do being dyslexic is so hard. sorry. kenny

[marlyn&kenny]

hi, im marlyn. I was so happy to inform my fiance about this site and suggest we should sign up to become a member (so we are now), But this happiness turned us into a hurt couple.

I understand you are a moderator and have all the rights whatever you wish to write on all threads, but i find you very rude of telling my fiance like that! JUST BECAUSE OF WRONG GRAMMAR AND SPELLING... YOU MAYBE VERY CLEVER (OUTSTANDING!!!) BUT PLEASE BE CONSIDERATE, (FYI, NOBODY IS PERFECT!)
I'M JUST SO HURT SIR/MA'AM GINAPETERB.

[scottishbride]

Marlyn & Kenny, if you knew Peter the way everyone else does on the forum you would I am sure not be so insulted. He has always been ready to offer advice to those who are really looking for uncertain answers. You are asking people the very obvious questions which can be checked out on the threads, VFS website. Why would the British Embassy refuse you guys, because you have only known each other for 2 weeks, unlike people like my husband and I who have been living together for 4 years. Do your research, Kenny needs more money, also he needs suitable accommodation for the two of you, you both are sounding a little desperate, go easy!

[pumpkins]

hi, im marlyn. I was so happy to inform my fiance about this site and suggest we should sign up to become a member (so we are now), But this happiness turned us into a hurt couple.

I understand you are a moderator and have all the rights whatever you wish to write on all threads, but i find you very rude of telling my fiance like that! JUST BECAUSE OF WRONG GRAMMAR AND SPELLING... YOU MAYBE VERY CLEVER (OUTSTANDING!!!) BUT PLEASE BE CONSIDERATE, (FYI, NOBODY IS PERFECT!)
I'M JUST SO HURT SIR/MA'AM GINAPETERB.

hi marlyn and kenny, sorry about the moderator replied on your post.he must be tired when he was reading your thread so must be grumpy that time, like my husband when he is tired especially last night he was so grumpy to me, irritable and bad mood. ..
i knew ginapeterb the moderator giving a helpful advice to members here, but to be honest i was shocked when he replied those words like that..it was'nt nice to say that especially to those new member here.i would also hurt by that.
i noticed also that the spellings are not right but you can still understand what is the word mean, for ex.. ebassy-embassy,overdraught-overdraft,citizan-citizen.. so those words can still understand even wrong spelling so it does'nt matter, we are not in a spelling quiz bee.

and also i would advice the new members here not to be too sensitive of what other members replies because you will be encounter some rude and judgemental members here and you will get used to that..
i am not good in english but i still try my best to deliver myself clearly here coz i dont want to be scolded by other member / moderators or whoever ...

to ginapeterb- a message from my husband
"writing is peter's strength..like gym is mine...how would he feel if he came into the gym while i was there and i critisized him for being fat and told him to loose weight before he came back into the gym before i would help him...he too would feel pretty bad.....same thing what peter is doin to the other guy"

most of these people are from the north of england so he said its there nature to be that way.. rude..so take no notice.

CHEERS for all..
Pikon is not allowed here

[thejarvs]

I am a british citizan born here.
I was told by a visa consultancy I would not get a visa for my darling wife to be ( a natural born philippino ) they said its because we have only spent 10 days together then nearly 1 year apart because she went to work in Kuwait.

We love each other dearly and said after one year working apart we will get together and get maried. So I said ok we won't go for fiance spouse visa but a visitors visa !! He then said she would not get that to.

We are heart broken.

He said its because she cannot show she wil return i.e. by having a job there or buisiness or strong family comitment. So now our plan is for me to go to the phils for 1 month. While there i will marry her and be a proud husband. Then we wil go to the embassy and hope to get a visa for her to return. We think this will work!! Help guys ??

We have all the stuff we need but one area remains uncertain. The money or finances !! Obviously its going to cost me a lot of money to go there get married then the 585 visa fee to the embassy. Her flight back to the phils from kuwait, and her flight to uk if they grant her visa.

So my bank acount will maybe have only 1000 pounds savings left after all this. Will they accept this as enough to take care of her when she comes to uk ???

The other thing is i buy and sell cars as a sideline and a lot of the money is from selling of cars i have stood. So my bank account will zoom from minimul savings to over 4500 savings as i sell off two cars i dont need.

Some say they want regular savings across the six months payslips ?? and even though i have a 1500 pounds overdraught i can use, i must not show any of the six months payslips in overdraught ??

Help me please on the money side ? what is exactly needed ?? My p60 states i made nearly 28,000 last tax year.Help us build our loving life together guys.

god bless. kenny.

So Kenny I think your problem is showing you have a real relationship because savings of £4500 will be fine and 6 months payslips/bank statements showing credit will be fine.

If you can show you have been in contact throught that year apart i.e. yahoo transcripts phone records etc. thats good, gather as much evidence as you can in your month in phil when you get married.

As for bringing Marlyn back with you I can't see that happening as the visa will take time to process so forget the plane ticket expense for that.

Hope this helps

[Sim11UK]

Hi.....for a start, I wouldn't bother using a consultant. All the information can be found here & on Pete's site...You just need to take your time to find things out.
Most of us have encountered problems, along the way, so don't think it is just you, believe me we've all been there.

It's very unlikely, you would get a visit visa, so keep working towards getting a fiance or spouse visa....Given some time, they are very much acheivable.

[trader dave]

pikon PIKON PIKON funny MRS T is always calling me that THATS BECAUSE OF LDR

my advice is to research this site all the answers are on here as PIKON PETE SAID

all i will say is slow down take your time because it is going to be a hard struggle and many times you will feel like throwing the towel in thats what an LDR does to you thats not to mention the damage to the bank balance and your sanity

dont bother trying to get a cheap fix like a visitors visa because i done that 3 times waste of money your only way forward in my view is to get married in the philippines and remember that is a lifetime commitement or is it a lifetime sentence

[bornatbirth]

as a member in this forum for a while,the one thing that annoys me is when new members post silly questions like "how do i get a visa"?.

the moderaters are short on time and you will notice they do there best to help,if you go to many other forums you will be lucky to get a reply,on this forum you will get a reply to every question?

i first asked silly questions too until i used the search and discovered all i need to know,you may notice that posts with "how do i do this" dont get many replys??? can you wonder why! because everyone is thinking use the search function?,well i am.

anyway we are here to help,so goodluck

ps use the search

[marlyn&kenny]

Marlyn & Kenny, if you knew Peter the way everyone else does on the forum you would I am sure not be so insulted. He has always been ready to offer advice to those who are really looking for uncertain answers. You are asking people the very obvious questions which can be checked out on the threads, VFS website. Why would the British Embassy refuse you guys, because you have only known each other for 2 weeks, unlike people like my husband and I who have been living together for 4 years. Do your research, Kenny needs more money, also he needs suitable accommodation for the two of you, you both are sounding a little desperate, go easy!

So sorry this is all my fault. My fiance new i was upset on cam and was just defending me. I am dyslexic and yes my grammer is very poor and spelling is terible. I spent 50 years living with it infact its a real disability. She was only aserting her opinion. Sorry guys. I am sure peter is a great guy. I am strugling because of my dyslexia. regards, kenny and marlyn

[marlyn&kenny]

hi marlyn and kenny, sorry about the moderator replied on your post.he must be tired when he was reading your thread so must be grumpy that time, like my husband when he is tired especially last night he was so grumpy to me, irritable and bad mood. ..
i knew ginapeterb the moderator giving a helpful advice to members here, but to be honest i was shocked when he replied those words like that..it was'nt nice to say that especially to those new member here.i would also hurt by that.
i noticed also that the spellings are not right but you can still understand what is the word mean, for ex.. ebassy-embassy,overdraught-overdraft,citizan-citizen.. so those words can still understand even wrong spelling so it does'nt matter, we are not in a spelling quiz bee.

and also i would advice the new members here not to be too sensitive of what other members replies because you will be encounter some rude and judgemental members here and you will get used to that..
i am not good in english but i still try my best to deliver myself clearly here coz i dont want to be scolded by other member / moderators or whoever ...

to ginapeterb- a message from my husband
"writing is peter's strength..like gym is mine...how would he feel if he came into the gym while i was there and i critisized him for being fat and told him to loose weight before he came back into the gym before i would help him...he too would feel pretty bad.....same thing what peter is doin to the other guy"

most of these people are from the north of england so he said its there nature to be that way.. rude..so take no notice.

CHEERS for all..
Pikon is not allowed here

THanks guys, I have lived with dyslexia for 50 years. Not many understand, and judgement is ready and avalable.It seams other disabliitys are acsepted but grammer and bad spelling are frouned upon. Thanks guys, god bless. Kenny and Marlyn.

[pumpkins]

PEACE to all
To marlyn and kenny Goodluck to your application
Just keep reading here guys.there are many relevant information here that you can get. Pete's site is very informative site.

God Bless...

[Sim11UK]

Nobody would have a go at you intentionally, if they knew you were dyslexic.
It must be very frustrating at times, expressing yourself on a forum like this.

Threads usually take a few days, before the replies start to come in... People haven't always got the time, to answer straight away.

You'll get there in time. ...Good luck!

[Arthur Little]

Welcome, Marlyn & Kenny.

"Writing" is MY strength too BUT, having said that, I can empathise with YOUR situation, Kenny ... as my son [37] is also dyslexic.

Marlyn, please be assured that ... far from meaning to be offensive ... Pete is keen to help newcomers and/or fellow forumers alike in every way possible ... based on his extensively knowledgable experience and expertise (which is second to none) in relation to Filipino culture. Indeed, he was one of the first to greet ME when I was a 'Newbie' here, between my two visits to the Phils last year. And thanks, in no small measure, to his wise counsel - in conjunction with the guidance of others on this site - I was able to defy the odds *against my Filipina wife obtaining a Spouse Visa *due to my being retired on an occupational pension.

With regard to spelling errors ... again, don't worry about these ... NOBODY is perfect! Besides, they have absolutely no bearing on a person's overall intelligence ... for instance, spelling has always been one of MY strong points while, on the other hand, my son-in-law is a teacher of Physics - yet HIS [spelling] has never been. Yet HE is the one with a University Degree ... something which I DON'T possess. Each and every one of us is unique in his or her own way.

I shall leave you both to be guided by the advice offered to you by others in the meantime, and which you will, no doubt, continue to receive. But in so doing, I would simply ask that you try to follow Pete's suggestion by 'paragraphing' subsequent posts in order to make their content easier to read and digest.

Thanks in anticipation ... and Good Luck!

[marlyn&kenny]

Kenny

People are going to be reluctant to read your post when you group it together in only 1 paragraph, for anyone remotely trying to assist you, they will become disinterested when they see how you have written your request.

Secondly, your spelling mistakes do not help, if you re-write your post, I will read it, until then, I refuse to trawl through it and de-cypher what you have tried to ask.

I spent 50 years coping with this disabilty, i am dyslexic. Sorry its not something you blow trumpetrs about. Most people just take time and patients to understand. But sorry you wernt to know. Regards kenny and marlyn.

[NtoN]

[QUOTE=Sim11UK;171037]Hi.....for a start, I wouldn't bother using a consultant....

Hello Marlyn & Kenny! I support Sim11UK on this..i mean having a consultant. My fiance & I, for one, have been together here in the Philippines for only 17 days but was granted a fiancee visa a week ago. We personally met on December 2008 after 8mos of continuous communication.

When we applied for a fiancee visa last April, we submitted everything to support our claims and I have to sincerely thank this site for this. As to evidence of relationship, I submitted the following:

1) My mobile phone's Statements of Account (from April 2008-March 2009) highlighting his number;
2) Screenshot of our daily emails since day 1 (I have to thank myself for being sentimental ). I also printed out some emails;
3) Our pictures together with corresponding documents (e.g. our pictures taken in Boracay - next page are the plane tickets, terminal fees, hotel booking & food receipts)

Just do your research & be guided by reading the threads relative to applying a visa. This forum will surely address some of your concerns. Good luck!

[marlyn&kenny]

Welcome, Marlyn & Kenny.

"Writing" is MY strength too BUT, having said that, I can empathise with YOUR situation, Kenny ... as my son [37] is also dyslexic.

Marlyn, please be assured that ... far from meaning to be offensive ... Pete is keen to help newcomers and/or fellow forumers alike in every way possible ... based on his extensively knowledgable experience and expertise (which is second to none) in relation to Filipino culture. Indeed, he was one of the first to greet ME when I was a 'Newbie' here, between my two visits to the Phils last year. And thanks, in no small measure, to his wise counsel - in conjunction with the guidance of others on this site - I was able to defy the odds *against my Filipina wife obtaining a Spouse Visa *due to my being retired on an occupational pension.

With regard to spelling errors ... again, don't worry about these ... NOBODY is perfect! Besides, they have absolutely no bearing on a person's overall intelligence ... for instance, spelling has always been one of MY strong points while, on the other hand, my son-in-law is a teacher of Physics - yet HIS [spelling] has never been. Yet HE is the one with a University Degree ... something which I DON'T possess. Each and every one of us is unique in his or her own way.

I shall leave you both to be guided by the advice offered to you by others in the meantime, and which you will, no doubt, continue to receive. But in so doing, I would simply ask that you try to follow Pete's suggestion by 'paragraphing' subsequent posts in order to make their content easier to read and digest.

Thanks in anticipation ... and Good Luck!

Thank you so much. I wil try in the future but it is so very hard for me. I am sure peter is a perfect gentleman and means no harm from his coments. Being dysexic means the paperwork is a bit of a nightmare for me.Thank you for the welcome. And yes what a fantastic site with a wealth of information. WArm regards. kenny and marlyn.

[marlyn&kenny]

Nobody would have a go at you intentionally, if they knew you were dyslexic.
It must be very frustrating at times, expressing yourself on a forum like this.

Threads usually take a few days, before the replies start to come in... People haven't always got the time, to answer straight away.

You'll get there in time. ...Good luck!

Thank you so much. ITs clear to me now i should have said i am dyslexic from the start.All my own fault.Yes its so very hard to express myself on this forum, and to write letters . THe papers to me are a nightmare, but my inteligence is all in order,and we wil get there. God bles you and good luck to you to. regards kenny and marlyn

[marlyn&kenny]

thank you so so much for your welcome and support. God be with you allways and forever. regards kenny and marlyn.

[marlyn&kenny]

THank you so much for your welcome and well wishing. ITs hard being dyslexic but i am inteligent and will get there.I should have stated i am dyslexic from the start.Its just i wanted help not judgement or sympathy. I am going back to the philippines after one year of our meeting. We spent two weeks toghether then.
So when i go back this october 18, how posible do u think it is to obtain a visa before i leave ( love to bring her home with me )I will be there for one month and getting marriied in that time to. I have the money to do it but most has come in a lump sum. So my bank statements dont show regular savings. Infact they show me in ( agread overdraft ) a couple of times.Most say i need to show six months with savings over 2000 !!
Warm regards. Kenny and Marlyn.

[scottishbride]

So sorry this is all my fault. My fiance new i was upset on cam and was just defending me. I am dyslexic and yes my grammer is very poor and spelling is terible. I spent 50 years living with it infact its a real disability. She was only aserting her opinion. Sorry guys. I am sure peter is a great guy. I am strugling because of my dyslexia. regards, kenny and marlyn

I am sorry to hear about your dyslexic problem, you sound like a really decent guy and I am sure that is why Marlyn is defending you so strongly! Best of luck with your fiancee application, I am sure you guys can get things sorted!

[IainBusby]

THank you so much for your welcome and well wishing. ITs hard being dyslexic but i am inteligent and will get there.I should have stated i am dyslexic from the start.Its just i wanted help not judgement or sympathy. I am going back to the philippines after one year of our meeting. We spent two weeks toghether then.
So when i go back this october 18, how posible do u think it is to obtain a visa before i leave ( love to bring her home with me )I will be there for one month and getting marriied in that time to. I have the money to do it but most has come in a lump sum. So my bank statements dont show regular savings. Infact they show me in ( agread overdraft ) a couple of times.Most say i need to show six months with savings over 2000 !!
Warm regards. Kenny and Marlyn.

Hi Kenny,
It will be almost impossible for you to bring her home with you. Once you are married there is a lot of work to do compiling all of the stuff for the visa application and one thing that is required that sometimes takes quite a while to get hold of is the NSO certified marriage certificate.

Once your new wife has all of the required documentation/evidence and is ready to submit her visa application, she will have to pay the visa fee into one of the specified banks and then make an appointment online to submit her application. Then she will have to travel to Manila and submit it.

After that, if there are no problems with it and your wife is not called for an interview, it can normally take up to 3 months for the visa to come through. I highlighted the word "normally" because lately the waiting times have been much longer than that, up to 18 weeks or so.

You say you'll be there for one month, well that's only just about enough time to get married and have a short honeymoon there.

Iain.

[sammy]

hi Marlyn & kenny
go to www.british-filipino.com. it will explain procedures on marriage and all info you need and then things you need to confirm/clarify post it here or search the threads here. Like everyone here is saying take your time and flamiliarise yourself with which path to take. Dont take my word for it but personally i think the spouse visa will be best for you, once you are married which shows your comitment to each other and then with the correct requirements you just have to convince the ECO.
good luck
Sammy

[marlyn&kenny]

Thank you so much for your welcomers and advice. I am sure its my own fault for not stating i am dyslexic.Its a fantastic site and he is doing a fantastic job. Thjis is much hardr for me being dyslexic.WArm regards and gods love. Kenny and Marlyn.

[marlyn&kenny]

hi Marlyn & kenny
go to www.british-filipino.com. it will explain procedures on marriage and all info you need and then things you need to confirm/clarify post it here or search the threads here. Like everyone here is saying take your time and flamiliarise yourself with which path to take. Dont take my word for it but personally i think the spouse visa will be best for you, once you are married which shows your comitment to each other and then with the correct requirements you just have to convince the ECO.
good luck
Sammy

Hi, i am sure its alol my fault, i got sio used to people hjust mudling through my grammer and making sence of it , i expect everyone to.Its a great site and fantastic members and information. really i owe peter a great deal of respect for doing this for us guys. The inbfo is first class. Regards and gods love. Kenny and Marlyn.

[neallie]

Hi Kenny & Marlyn,
Please dont take too much notice of Peter, Usually people so perfect as Peter have short falls some where else and dont like them to be pointed out to them. I to suffer from dyslexia and have fought against it for 40years all I can say is it has not stopped me achieving my goals.
In response to your question take the advice given on this site, forget the consultants, it takes time to achieve everything you need but it is very possible. The most important thing that they will be looking for is evidince of relationship, If you can get yourself out to the Phils it goes a long way, lots of photos, can you not get some time with her in Kuwait, for a few days it shows commitment and its closer. If you do come over to the Phills to get married then make sure everything is in place with paperwork as there is a lot to go through and if you dont have everything ready then you might not complete in a month, even then this could be looked on as a marriage of convinience without sufficient evidince.
Good luck to you both!!!

[Pepe n Pilar]

Hi Kenny and Marlyn,

As i was reading your post i can easily digest or decipher what you really mean. You're so upset about what kind of visa to apply and your finances. For sure some members here who has experienced the same will give you advice and also about the spouse visa. I can only share my experiences as to visit and fiancee visa.

Take it easy, you'll get there. Almost all of the members here had also experienced the long wait until they were able to get together with their loved ones.

Pls do use the search button and you will find answers to your queries. Don't be bothered with your grammar or spelling, what is important is the thought and your good intent.

I agree with the saying that nobody's perfect, we just have to be more broadminded to be able to understand and forgive other peoples faults or comments against us. I just take it as a constructive criticism... or in some instances it may serve as an eye opener.

As long as you gather enough evidence of the two of you being together and in constant communication aside from other requirements on the checklist, then you will be fine. Love can move mountains!..

Best of luck.
BTW a warm welcome to the forum!

Cheers!

[marlyn&kenny]

Thanks Pepe n Pilar! I apologize about how I reacted, at least we are learning each member's behavior, how to deal with it.
Im a filipna and in our culture, i found it offensive. lol
Regards,
Marlyn & Kenny

[Ady]

I am a british citizan born here. I was told by a visa consultancy i would not get a visa for my darling wife to be ( a natural born philippino ) They said its because we have only spent 10 days together then nearly 1 year appart because she went to work in kuwait.We love each other dearly and said after one year working appart we will get together and get maried. So i said ok we wont go for fiance spouse visa but a visitors visa !! He then said she would not get that to. We are heart broken.He said its because she cannot show she wil return ie by having a job there or buisiness or strong family comitment. So now our plan is for me to go to the phils for 1 month. While there i will marry her and be a proud husband.THen we wil go to the embassy and hope to get a visa for her to return. WE think this wil work!! Help guys ?? WE have all the stuff we need but one area remains uncertain. The money or finances !! Obviously its going to cost me a lot of money to go there get married then the 585 visa fee to the ebassy. Her flight back to the phils from kuwait, and her flight to uk if they grant her visa. So my bank acount will maybe have only 1000 pounds savings left after all this. Will they acsept this as enought to take care of her when she comes to uk ??? The other thing is i buy and sel cars as a sideline and a lot of the money is from selling of cars i have stood. So my bank account will zoom from minimul savings to over 4500 savings as i sel of two cars i dont need. Some say they want regular savings across the six months payslips ?? and even though i have a 1500 pounds overdraught i can use, i mist not show any of the six months payslips in overdraught ??Help me please on the money side ? what is exactly needed ?? My p60 states i made nearly 28,000 last tax year.Help us build our loving life together guys. god bless. kenny.

I think your issue is in proving your relationship. For me and Shei - we saw each other just 2 weeks a year before applying. But, in the other 50 weeks we built up yahoo transcripts, phone calls, letters, gifts, western union transfers and testimonies from parents.

Visitor visas are hard to get. I think fiance is your way forward - or to get married in Kuwait/Philippines.

Getting savings is good - do that now, and spend the next 6 months building up your transcripts of chats and calls. Then submit everything to the appropriate embassy. The man who gave you advice is, in my humble opinion, slightly wrong. Just because you only saw each other 10 days in one year - it doesn't discount against a successful application. However, another meeting in Kuwait or Philippines, with photo evidence, and plane ticket evidence, and passport stamp evidence would help too.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong in what I said.

But, to summise,

1) Meet her again. Doesn't really matter where. Take lots of pics.
2) Get your savings in order (preferably any large transfer will take place outside the 6 month's required statement - if not - explain why you have suddenly depositied £4,500)
3) Chat in Yahoo as often as possible. Take screenshots of you both on webcams, and highlight the date. Chat, if you use phone cards collect them and add them to the application.
4) Buy her some gifts from filgifts. Send her letters. There is more to a relationship than just meeting - relationships can be sustained by internet, letters and phone calls. After all, some blokes work in the middle of the North Sea for 6 months a year - and their marriages/relationships survive and grow. Why can't yours?

Good luck. Don't be too down about what the lawyer said.

Alternatively, get married in the Phils, and apply for a spousal visa. That would have the extra benefit in that Marlyn could start working as soon as she arrives - therefore self-sustained.