Vote Labour at your peril at the next election

[aromulus]

Are you a supporter of the the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable brigade then Dom?

Nope.

I am a supporter of real democratic process and, in the instance you highlighted, there was none.

Ignoring personal feelings about the subject, I felt that an issue such as fox hunting, affecting thousands, if not millions of UK citizens, should have been put to the Nation, and not arbitrarily decided behind closed doors to glean MP support for other dubious policies.

[IainBusby]

Nope.

I am a supporter of real democratic process and, in the instance you highlighted, there was none.

Ignoring personal feelings about the subject, I felt that an issue such as fox hunting, affecting thousands, if not millions of UK citizens, should have been put to the Nation, and not arbitrarily decided behind closed doors to glean MP support for other dubious policies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was voted for by the majority of MP's in a parliament of 650 odd who were elected by those entitled to vote and in a free and fair election. I don't think it could be classed as an issue of national importance of kind the that calls for a referendum.

Had it not been for the fact that it's a sport (for want of a better word) that is supported and indulged in by the upper classes and royalty no less, it would have been banned many years ago at the same time as cock fighting and dog fighting etc.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if they chase little foxes and let the hounds tear them apart, but to me this whole argument just smacks of one law for the rich, who can afford to sit on a horse and watch the animal being killed and another law for the rest of us, who shouldn't be encouraged to indulge in such bloodlust in the name of sport.

[aromulus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was voted for by the majority of MP's in a parliament of 650 odd who were elected by those entitled to vote and in a free and fair election.

arbitrarily decided behind closed doors to glean MP support for other dubious policies.

There is your answer.

If you remeber, it kept going back and forth to the Lords, until it was passed by act of Parliament, thus bypassing any more shenanigans from the Lords, which, even including labour stooges, wanted it amended.

It was not voted on, in its present form.

[IainBusby]

There is your answer.

If you remeber, it kept going back and forth to the Lords, until it was passed by act of Parliament, thus bypassing any more shenanigans from the Lords, which, even including labour stooges, wanted it amended.

It was not voted on, in its present form.

That's because the Lords always has had an inbuilt conservative majority with most of the hereditary peers who continually tried to thwart the bill belonging to the landed gentry (the fox hunting brigade) wheareas the government that we the people elected has a labour majority and the parliament act was put in place so that the unelected house of lords could not continually thwart the will of the elected government of the day, which ever party it may be, in the house of commons.

[aromulus]

That's because the Lords always has had an inbuilt conservative majority with most of the hereditary peers who continually tried to thwart the bill belonging to the landed gentry (the fox hunting brigade) wheareas the government that we the people elected has a labour majority and the parliament act was put in place so that the unelected house of lords could not continually thwart the will of the elected government of the day, which ever party it may be, in the house of commons.

Excuse me, but by then the Hereditary lot was well gone, and the place was 3/4 full of labour hired, by headhunters, stooges.
And they still saw flaws in that bill, so much, so that they sent it back to the commons a few times.

[IainBusby]

Excuse me, but by then the Hereditary lot was well gone, and the place was 3/4 full of labour hired, by headhunters, stooges.
And they still saw flaws in that bill, so much, so that they sent it back to the commons a few times.

There are still a number of hereditary peers in the house of lords to this day, 92 of them in fact, because the labour government decided not remove them all until it there was cross party agreement with regard to how their relacements would be selected and as far as the place being 3/4 full of labour stooges that is just totally untrue. Historically the lords has always had an inbuilt tory majority and as far as I am aware they still have today.


Reform of the House of Lords

There has been a movement in Britain towards reforming the second chamber because of its undemocratic nature. This has been advanced by the New Labour party who started the reform by abolishing most of the Hereditary Peers. They left only 92 of these Hereditary peers which was part of a deal made with the Conservative party to get the measure through Parliament. The Conservatives agreed to let the bill through if there would remain 92 Hereditary Peers (most peers are Conservative and the Conservatives have a strong strangle hold on the House of Lords which is useful when it isn't in power in the House of Commons).
However, when this agreement was reached, the Conservatives didn't realise that New Labour would do anything else that could annoy them. They were wrong! Tony made the Hereditary Peers vote for their survival. 75 peers where to be elected to stay in the House of Lords (the other 17 had a special reason for remaining, holding certain posts) by the Hereditary Peers themselves. Any of the Hereditary Peers could stand for election but when they did they had to write, in no more than 75 words (sic), why they should remain an Hereditary Peer. This most annoyed the Leader of the Conservative party in the Lords who was outraged (partly because he had to stand for election himself and was having difficulty cutting down his locution). The reason for this word limit was apparently to stop the Lords from writing colossal election manifestos.



Just one article I googled very quickly though I'm sure I could find many more to prove my point if I looked hard enough.

[walesrob]

Not that it matters much now, as Labour don't have long to go...I'm sure Gordons £££'s of cleaning bills claimed on his expenses will really endear him to the public, along with Jacqui Porn and her house. This Labour government has lost all credibility.

By the way Iain, that article seems a bit childish (must have been written by a 10 year old Ed Ballsup) - its the Labour Party, not the "NEW" Labour Party. Words like "They were wrong!" and "Tony" (Tony who?) hardly makes it a balanced and credible.

[Northerner]

To me. The most important thing in my mind is civil liberties. And Labour have attacked them left, right and centre.

This was the government that gave us the asbo. A way to criminalize someone who does not break any laws (and in one case I know of was abused to criminalize a woman later found to be the victim of liars for neighbours). Remember the ID cards? Despite a huge opposition to them, the government still went ahead to try and force them onto us. Only the recession saved us from that one!

And the "Respect for Religions" act, which would have made it a criminal offence to lampoon or even criticise any religion, lost by 1 vote (Tony Blair thought he had lost it by more and so went home early, otherwise it would have passed). These people wanted to extend the nanny state, telling us all what we can and cannot do. We live in a country where two women get criminalized if they agree to look after each others children (to save money) while the other goes to work...

And now it appears that Gordon Brown might have to pay back some of his expenses if they are shown to be excessive (in other words - fraudulent)....

I am no Tory, and if a conservative ever tells me they have plans to privatize the NHS, they lose not just my vote but I would canvass for their opposition (if they even had my vote in the first place).

[LastViking]

Nope.

I am a supporter of real democratic process and, in the instance you highlighted, there was none.

Ignoring personal feelings about the subject, I felt that an issue such as fox hunting, affecting thousands, if not millions of UK citizens, should have been put to the Nation, and not arbitrarily decided behind closed doors to glean MP support for other dubious policies.

Well said Aromulus, whatever you may feel about the subject, the process is now in serious question.

[bornatbirth]

an issue such as fox hunting, affecting thousands, if not millions of UK citizens, should have been put to the Nation

you mean some tory voting country folk,im not sure they go into millions

lets not forget everyone the tories have shafted everytime they are in power and would you believe that some are going to vote for a millionare former public school boy to be PM

[joebloggs]

lets not forget everyone the tories have shafted everytime they are in power and would you believe that some are going to vote for a millionare former public school boy to be PM

yes, thatcher sold the family sliver off
and brown the gold.

just as bad as each other
but at least the labour mob brought in the minimum wage

[walesrob]

and brown the gold.

...and now they plan to sell a lot more.....£16 billion worth

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8301787.stm

kerching

[somebody]

yes, thatcher sold the family sliver off
and brown the gold.

just as bad as each other
but at least the labour mob brought in the minimum wage

The Minimum wage was both a goodf thing and for some a bad thing.

It would be intresting to see how many jobs were brought down to the minimum wage as were brought up.

Dont get me wrong it did help a lot of people and families but im pretty sure it also hampered some others

I can remeber with the Wife looking in a jobe centre when she was first here and nearly every job was hourly and minimum wage when i had looked ten years before or so the wages per hour for temp work and shop jobs were not that much lower from memory.

While it may have raised wages up north and elsewhere it drove down some wages in London it seemed and possibly elsewhere. A good Idea which possibly was not so well thought out.

[Northerner]

Regarding the minimum wage.. When I was 18 I worked for £80 a week

My employer at the time was a mean little who no doubt would have cried poverty when the minimum wage came into being. The minimum wage by a vast scale has made a positive impact on this country.

[walesrob]

Regarding the minimum wage.. When I was 18 I worked for £80 a week

My employer at the time was a mean little who no doubt would have cried poverty when the minimum wage came into being. The minimum wage by a vast scale has made a positive impact on this country.

The only problem with minimum wage is that a lot of employers ONLY pay the minimum wage and nothing more. A lot of supermarkets are an example of this, although the one I work for (Where mums go to, and where Kerry got fired from ) we are very lucky in that we get 30p above minimum, plus we've had a 5% payrise this week, but I know the other big supermarket chains only pay minimum wage for checkout staff and shelf fillers. I was shocked to learn that the average wage in the UK is supposed to be £400 a week, so on £6.50 an hour I get, I would have to work 61+ (more if you take into account tax and NI) hours a week. Labour talk about an equal society for all, but nah, they've got a long way to go.

[Northerner]

The only problem with minimum wage is that a lot of employers ONLY pay the minimum wage and nothing more. A lot of supermarkets are an example of this, although the one I work for (Where mums go to, and where Kerry got fired from ) we are very lucky in that we get 30p above minimum, plus we've had a 5% payrise this week, but I know the other big supermarket chains only pay minimum wage for checkout staff and shelf fillers. I was shocked to learn that the average wage in the UK is supposed to be £400 a week, so on £6.50 an hour I get, I would have to work 61+ (more if you take into account tax and NI) hours a week. Labour talk about an equal society for all, but nah, they've got a long way to go.

I always doubt the offical average salary since the days of Thatcher. All governments like to make their figures look better. This little graph I drew up shows what used to be done years ago to create the so called average.. It would not suprise me if it is still done today.

[somebody]

Regarding the minimum wage.. When I was 18 I worked for £80 a week

My employer at the time was a mean little who no doubt would have cried poverty when the minimum wage came into being. The minimum wage by a vast scale has made a positive impact on this country.

Maybe up north but they didn't take regional differences into place which im sure they were thinking in their ivory towers would mean the whole job market would adapt but as we dont it takes more than that. It also has meant many jobs are now minimum wage and hourly rates etc when before they were permant salaried jobs

One very well known security firm used at work who many of the guards i have known for years. Has im told its older staff on salaried wages and the newer staff are hourly on rolling contracts and yes you guessed it minimum wage They gave the newer staff more holidays well actually they gave them the chance to take their bank holidays when they like and still have less holidays than the older staff

Many supermarket staff were salaried or had guaranteed hours when friends and I were students working in the evenings and weekends. Now you would be very lucky it seems to have this luxury.

Now many retail staff are zero hour contract so the minimum wage makes no difference. Sickness is now an offence and many companies big and small being far less genrous with sickness pay.



Well intentioned policy which as usual it seems backfired.

[Northerner]

Maybe up north but they didn't take regional differences into place which im sure they were thinking in their ivory towers would mean the whole job market would adapt but as we dont it takes more than that. It also has meant many jobs are now minimum wage and hourly rates etc when before they were permant salaried jobs

One very well known security firm used at work who many of the guards i have known for years. Has im told its older staff on salaried wages and the newer staff are hourly on rolling contracts and yes you guessed it minimum wage They gave the newer staff more holidays well actually they gave them the chance to take their bank holidays when they like and still have less holidays than the older staff

Many supermarket staff were salaried or had guaranteed hours when friends and I were students working in the evenings and weekends. Now you would be very lucky it seems to have this luxury.

Now many retail staff are zero hour contract so the minimum wage makes no difference. Sickness is now an offence and many companies big and small being far less genrous with sickness pay.



Well intentioned policy which as usual it seems backfired.

These problems came into effect before the minimum wage was even law. And it was the erosion of the unions which started it all. As these days most unions are toothless tigers.

The company I work for has treated it's staff like you would treat the dog poop on your shoe!

At one point my office had a 99% attrition rate (the rate people join the company and then leave within a year) and they blamed the local people for being too lazy to work. Although shipping jobs offshore and trying to manage people out of the company instead of paying them redundancy might have been a more obvious problem.

Companies have power, unions do not. When the unions had too much power they abused it. Now that the companies have too much power, they too are abusing it. We have lost the balance to keep things equal and good for all parties

[walesrob]

Sickness is now an offence and many companies big and small being far less genrous with sickness pay.


Well intentioned policy which as usual it seems backfired.

I worked for another supermarket company for 15 months a few years ago (I call it Shine, but I'm sure you know who I'm talking about), but was off sick for the best part of 2 months (got no sick pay or SSP), on my return I got a written warning. It was a genuine sickness, but no, the company wouldn't have it, they claimed I was letting down the team and the company. As soon as I got this written warning, they had my resignation letter the next day, and they wonder why there is such a huge turnover of staff. In contrast, the company I work for now treat all their staff as human beings, loads of incentives and pay above national minimum wage.

[somebody]

you mean some tory voting country folk,im not sure they go into millions

lets not forget everyone the tories have shafted everytime they are in power and would you believe that some are going to vote for a millionare former public school boy to be PM

Sadly mate so have Labour. People need to get away from Red or Blue is good. The sooner they realise this country needs some serious change and inward looking. A vote for a "none above party" to get voted in and demand real change to the voting system parliment and possibly annual refrendums on all major bills for the year.
5 years and no say for the masses has shown in a world which is getting faster and faster being shown to be a major issue.


To be honest a millionaire former Public school boy is not what turns me off hopefully hes had a decent education which separates him from many who ended up at the state school which due to either crazy policys or underfunding/staffing (Red or Blue covered there) possibly got a far less decent education.

But saying that Tony Bliar was public school and oxford educated

[bornatbirth]

But saying that Tony Bliar was public school and oxford educated

i never voted for him either

i admit i cant see any real change whoever wins,the country is in a mess.

the tories need to raise taxes but arnt going to tax there own,so we working class are going to get stuffed...as labour are already taxes us to death,house prices and the cost of everyday bills is soaring out of control....whoever gets these back down gets my vote

[walesrob]

But saying that Tony Bliar was public school and oxford educated

and that Harriet Harrowwoman.