Signs that this government is kaput

[walesrob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8430642.stm

Big budget deficit? no
Cutbacks in public services? no
MP's expenses again? no

Its the return of the Fox Hunting debate. I thought this was sorted out years ago, but no, its apparent this failing government has nothing better to do than score cheap political points on Boxing Day. This whole debate is clearly us vs them, rich vs poor, labour vs tory. Whats intruiging is that Labour claims to be the party of many but that does not include the rich and those educated at Eton (guess that makes up a large % of the Tory party, weird or what?) The country will always have rich and poor (and always has done) and no amount of Labour fiddling is going to fix that.

Now how about this government focus on more pressing matters?

[Tawi2]

Its a vote winnerI was one of the 400,000,yeah,almost half a million,who marched on London back in 2002 protesting against the ban on hunting with dogs,it wasnt about rich V poor,one of my sisters used to ride to hounds(The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible?Nahhh)her husband is a chippie and she lives in a council house,she still keeps horses but doesnt follow a hunt as nowadays they are all drags,the vast majority of guys I know who used to hunt were working class labour voters,thats all going to change this coming election,but the days of only the rich riding to hounds were back in the victorian era when if you shot a fox on hunting land you were thrown out of your tied cottage,its a different world nowadaysBut got to agree they are clutching at any straw to stay afloat,I still think Mrs Cameron will be down B&Q next year choosing wallpaper for No 10 as I am sure Mrs Brown has abysmal taste(in wallpaper and men).

[KeithD]

Strange that the sport now has more members than ever since they got rid of the killing, and if they brought it back membership would drop considerably. It's only a minority of Hoohar's who want it back.

On top of that with all new MP's coming in, probably 200-300, it would never be brought back anyway in a free vote.

I live in a village where we have a local hunt, and haven't met any locals who supported fox hunting.... and yet the foxhunters blamed it on city boy meddling

[Tawi2]

Fox hunting as such has always been a social event and is not an effective method of control,I can take the same amount of fox in a night with a rifle and NV the average hunt could take in a month,but I do know quite a number of friends who will vote conservative if they think the current ban will be overturned,I dont think it will be but theres always wishful thinking

[joebloggs]

Its a vote winnerI was one of the 400,000,yeah,almost half a million,who marched on London back in 2002 protesting against the ban on hunting with dogs,it wasnt about rich V poor,one of my sisters used to ride to hounds(The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible?Nahhh)

and in 2002 i was one of the 60,000,000+ who didn't go and support them

i think you will find most foxes die of starvation or disease than any other way.

[Tawi2]

Biggest killer of fox in this country are vehicles and sarcoptic mange,leastways thats the findings of Stephen Harris(doctor)of Bristol University,one of europes leading experts on Vulpes vulpes,though I always found anything from a .17hmr to a .243 was equally as terminal,fox are a pest plain and simple,seen them taking both lambs and piglets,but the most effective way to control the population isnt riding to hounds,its night shooting or snaring,both legal methods.

[joebloggs]

,fox are a pest plain and simple,seen them taking both lambs and piglets,but the most effective way to control the population isnt riding to hounds,its night shooting or snaring,both legal methods.

lambs and piglets are not a common sight in Greater Manchester and i would have thought an even rarer sight in London, thou we do have foxes where i live, they've been forced into the cities, because of what little green belt is left near me is being built on, the Trafford centre and surrounding areas, now with plans for a stadium for the Salford Reds, and a massive container base, they have no choice but to move into the cities.

as for the 400,000 supporters - Foxes kill very few pets, and very few rifle dustbins. In reality, the majority of people like urban foxes. In a survey about wildlife in their garden completed by nearly 4000 household across Britain, 65.7% liked urban foxes, 25.8% had no strong views and only 8.5% disliked urban foxes. In a recent survey by The Mammal Society foxes were voted one of the most popular British mammals.

[Tawi2]

We aint all townies and fox do actually rifle dustbins,strewning rubbish across the streets,they can even get into Wheelie bins,dont ask how but they do,besides,I wasnt saying they are pests in inner cities,but ask a farmer his views and your going to get an entirely different viewpoint from that of an inner-city dweller I just remembered,theres actually an inner-city pest controller in London who specialises in fox,he shoots them with a .22 and traps them,makes a better than average wage so must get quite a few call outs,there was a pic of him in a national newspaper a few years ago with something like 15 or 16 he shot in a single night

[joebloggs]

We aint all townies and fox do actually rifle dustbins,strewning rubbish across the streets,they can even get into Wheelie bins,dont ask how but they do,besides,I wasnt saying they are pests in inner cities,

at least 85% of us are

if there is rubbish on the streets near us from bins, its not because of foxes, but because the bins are not empted when they are suppose to be ( they didn't empty them on thursday ) and because the bin men damage the bin lids, so rats can get it


anyway, Tories and labour their all the same

[KeithD]

We aint all townies and fox do actually rifle dustbins,strewning rubbish across the streets,they can even get into Wheelie bins

Domestic dogs are the No.1 culprtis, so maybe we should hunt them as well ...at least they wouldn't go to waste, the wifey's could eat the leftovers

but ask a farmer his views and your going to get an entirely different viewpoint from that of an inner-city dweller

As I clearly said above, I have and it is the same answer as city folk. Farmers lose many more animals through natural loss than the odd one nicked by a fox, and they only take the weak or injured anyway, it's called natural selection.

[IainBusby]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8430642.stm

Big budget deficit? no
Cutbacks in public services? no
MP's expenses again? no

Its the return of the Fox Hunting debate. I thought this was sorted out years ago, but no, its apparent this failing government has nothing better to do than score cheap political points on Boxing Day. This whole debate is clearly us vs them, rich vs poor, labour vs tory. Whats intruiging is that Labour claims to be the party of many but that does not include the rich and those educated at Eton (guess that makes up a large % of the Tory party, weird or what?) The country will always have rich and poor (and always has done) and no amount of Labour fiddling is going to fix that.

Now how about this government focus on more pressing matters?

I believe that the reason that this issue has resurfaced is because David Cameron has promised to have another vote on it if he gets into Downng Street.

[trenchtown]

I don`t think the majority of the electorate is really aware of how bad the economic problems are,fox hunting and class war is just a distraction.If the debt is going to be paid off then whichever party is in power will have to cut and tax and we will all feel the pain.The other solution is to allow inflation to inflate the debt away,unfortunately that means all our savings will disappear and the pound will plummet and i hate to think how many peso`s to the pound then.

[KeithD]

....and we will all feel the pain.

I won't

[walesrob]

I believe that the reason that this issue has resurfaced is because David Cameron has promised to have another vote on it if he gets into Downing Street.

Correct, but why is Hilary Benn campaigning/wasting time (delete as appropriate) on something that might or might not happen in the future? How about he campaigns, as Environment Minister for issues that are here and now, like, well duh, the environment. You got to admit, it looks bad on Labour - its shows how petty they are, couple that with Gordon's “Eton schoolboy” outburst, it proves Labour are just desperate. This makes interesting reading:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8431473.stm

The next general election campaign should not descend into a "hideous" class war, a senior minister has said.....Olympics Minister Tessa Jowell has told the Sunday Telegraph that the election campaign should not be a "to and fro of personality attack".

What can I say, but

[johncar54]

Biggest killer of fox in this country are vehicles

OK guys who will support the London march on 1st April to ban vehicles from, all UK roads ?

[Arthur Little]

I don`t think the majority of the electorate is really aware of how bad the economic problems are,fox hunting and class war is just a distraction.If the debt is going to be paid off then whichever party is in power will have to cut and tax and we will all feel the pain.The other solution is to allow inflation to inflate the debt away,unfortunately that means all our savings will disappear and the pound will plummet and i hate to think how many peso`s to the pound then.

... you could well be right; at least the ordinary punters [like you and I] WILL "feel the pinch" ... whilst those on hugely-inflated salaries - such as the 'Fred Goodwin's' of this world, and Chairperson(s) of this, that and the other financial institution(s) - and already in the supertax bracket, are scarcely likely to even notice any difference!

Btw, although you're designated as a 'Newbie', I see you actually first posted on the forum away back in February ... at which time I was in the Phils, and missed the opportunity to greet you THEN. I also note your name is Kevin ... so allow me to rectify things now, Kevin.

[Arthur Little]

OK guys who will support the London march on 1st April to ban vehicles from, all UK roads ?

John ... I might! ... if the Government of the Day were to re-open old railway lines serving remote parts of the country, create new [RAIL] networks ... and substitute the present 'Bus Pass' for free rail travel throughout the UK for diabled people, pensioners, and other retired folk like you and I. Who knows? this might even have the knock-on effect of enticing ex-pats (like yourself) to return to their homeland ... for the summer months, at least!

[walesrob]

if the Government of the Day were to re-open old railway lines serving remote parts of the country, create new [RAIL] networks ...

So how do propose this is all paid for? As an example, the old Aberystwyth to Carmarthen rail line is 60% built on. They will need a heck of a lot of money to get it back working - compulsory purchase orders could cost many ££££s and take many many years to sort out, and in this economic climate, its simply not justified.

[joebloggs]

So how do propose this is all paid for? As an example, the old Aberystwyth to Carmarthen rail line is 60% built on. They will need a heck of a lot of money to get it back working - compulsory purchase orders could cost many ££££s and take many many years to sort out, and in this economic climate, its simply not justified.

well what happened to the billions thatcher got when she raped the country and sold off anything British and from the sale of millions of council houses, where did that money go ???

[walesrob]

well what happened to the billions thatcher got

Someone told me she gave it to a certain Ferdinand Marcos for safe keeping....

[KeithD]

Someone told me she gave it to a certain Ferdinand Marcos for safe keeping....

So the Chinese shoe companies have it then?

[Arthur Little]

*So how do propose this is all paid for? As an example, the old Aberystwyth to Carmarthen rail line is 60% built on. They will need a heck of a lot of money to get it back working - compulsory purchase orders could cost many ££££s and take many many years to sort out, and in this economic climate, its simply not justified.

Unsurprisingly, I should've at least [half] expected] a reply along those *lines (if you'll excuse the *pun). And, to be honest, it WOULD be difficult to justify the expense involved ... not only in Wales and Scotland, but nationwide.

Frankly, there's NO easy way to curb the amount of traffic on British roads. But I do believe that if more bulk freight were transported by rail - as it used to be before Beeching's short-sighted (as it turned out) cuts *in 1963 - then the density of massive haulage vehicles using our motorways would be a lot less, for a start. Hopefully, this in itself, would ultimately lead to fewer accidents involving heavy lorries and trucks ... and limit the damage to the environment caused by burnt fuel pollution from exhaust pipes.

There again, in fairness to the *THEN Minister of Transport, he could hardly have been expected to've been able to foresee the vast increase in the volume of traffic over the ensuing 4/5 decades. I therefore rest my case (which had originally been raised partly in jest! ).

[walesrob]

There again, in fairness to the *THEN Minister of Transport, he could hardly have been expected to've been able to foresee the vast increase in the volume of traffic over the ensuing 4/5 decades. I therefore rest my case (which had originally been raised partly in jest! ).

.....and as a thank you to Mr Beeching closing down the Aber - Carmarthen line, they named a pub after him in Aberystwyth - the Lord Beechings in Alexandra Road.

As for the sheer volume of traffic, I agree, its needs sorting out, I would also be in favour of more public transport, but the will is not there, nor is the money for that matter. So the problem will get worse, governments will tax more and eventually, it will get to breaking point. We are not alone, the rest of the world has the same problem.

[Arthur Little]

As for the sheer volume of traffic, I agree, its needs sorting out, I would also be in favour of more public transport, but the will is not there, nor is the money for that matter. So the problem will get worse, governments will tax more and eventually, it will get to breaking point. We are not alone, the rest of the world has the same problem.

Yeah, I guess SO ... more's the pity!

[johncar54]

OK guys who will support the London march on 1st April to ban vehicles from, all UK roads ?

Arthur. Sorry, I thought "1st April" was a big enough clue !!!!!

[IainBusby]

Unsurprisingly, I should've at least [half] expected] a reply along those *lines (if you'll excuse the *pun). And, to be honest, it WOULD be difficult to justify the expense involved ... not only in Wales and Scotland, but nationwide.

Frankly, there's NO easy way to curb the amount of traffic on British roads. But I do believe that if more bulk freight were transported by rail - as it used to be before Beeching's short-sighted (as it turned out) cuts *in 1963 - then the density of massive haulage vehicles using our motorways would be a lot less, for a start. Hopefully, this in itself, would ultimately lead to fewer accidents involving heavy lorries and trucks ... and limit the damage to the environment caused by burnt fuel pollution from exhaust pipes.

There again, in fairness to the *THEN Minister of Transport, he could hardly have been expected to've been able to foresee the vast increase in the volume of traffic over the ensuing 4/5 decades. I therefore rest my case (which had originally been raised partly in jest! ).

I don't know how it could be achieved and especially in todays economic climate, but I think Arthur is thinking along the right lines because we can't continue to build even more motorways and widen existing motorways. What is needed is a new national rail frieght company with a network of major rail frieght terminals throughout the the country.

I firmly believe that the present motorway mayhem could actually help to make this a very attractive alternative and therefore a very successful venture financially. If enough money was invested in it to make it a faster and cheaper way to transport goods then perhaps we could get back to the way things used to be be when most of the long haul frieght was transported by rail and only saw the back of a lorry for the final (local) part of the journey.

I realise that it would take a very brave government to embark on such a venture even if times were better, but looking at the present mess, I don't think there is another real, long term solution that doesn't involve rail.

[somebody]

Cant speak for the rest of the country but plans fdor several rail plans are on the cards in and around london. Plus high speed links with major cities accross the country are being discussed.

From my experience of commuting in my local area im amazed how many freight trains are still used to haul heavy goods into the centre of London. The trains must take 10's of lorrys off the roads which is good news for many resasons.

Having seen the double decker trains in Europe and else where it would be worth investing evenm on short heavy use strechs of track it would be worth raising the clerance of bridges just for the extra capacity it would bring.

I often for business meetings take the train many look at me oddly when I say that I travel via rail. But often wonder how I get so much work done before and after meetings. Normally on the way have read up and prepared with the very latest data, had a nap or eaten and afterwards dashed out emails in response to the meeting while the others still sit in their cars. I get home a little later sometimes but dont have to ignore the Wife once at home while responding to the emails already sent out by the nutter on the train

[Arthur Little]

OK guys who will support the London march on 1st April to ban vehicles from, all UK roads ?

John ... *I might! ...

Arthur. Sorry, I thought "1st April" was a big enough clue !!!!!

Unsurprisingly, I should've at least [half] expected] a reply along those *lines ...

... I therefore rest my case (which had originally been raised partly in jest! ).

... 'April [or All] Fools' Day? ... it HADN'T escaped my notice, John ... ! Actually, this particular date happens to be the birthday of the sole remaining member of the immediate previous generation of my family ... my 91-year-old aunt ... so, in such circumstances, it would be difficult for me to forget.

Hence my in response to your post about support for the London March ... in terms of "banning vehicles from all UK roads".

Yet, many's the TRUE word said in jest! In more than forty years of living at the same address ... in close proximity to the A85 [and what was *THEN a fairly minor "secondary" thoroughfare *in 1968] ... I've witnessed a tremendous upsurge in the volume of traffic. And, now that I'm no longer as young, lithe nor fleet of foot as I once was, I find it can take anything up to a full five minutes to even attempt to reach the other side of the road ... in the absence of any pedestrian crossing.

Just wanted to clarify my point ... interspersed with a wee bit of humour!

[Arthur Little]

I don't know how it could be achieved and especially in todays economic climate, but I think Arthur is thinking along the right lines because we can't continue to build even more motorways and widen existing motorways. What is needed is a new national rail frieght company with a network of major rail frieght terminals throughout the the country.

I firmly believe that the present motorway mayhem could actually help to make this a very attractive alternative and therefore a very successful venture financially. If enough money was invested in it to make it a faster and cheaper way to transport goods then perhaps we could get back to the way things used to be be when most of the long haul frieght was transported by rail and only saw the back of a lorry for the final (local) part of the journey.

I realise that it would take a very brave government to embark on such a venture even if times were better, but looking at the present mess, I don't think there is another real, long term solution that doesn't involve rail.

Cant speak for the rest of the country but plans fdor several rail plans are on the cards in and around london. Plus high speed links with major cities accross the country are being discussed.

From my experience of commuting in my local area im amazed how many freight trains are still used to haul heavy goods into the centre of London. The trains must take 10's of lorrys off the roads which is good news for many resasons.

Having seen the double decker trains in Europe and else where it would be worth investing evenm on short heavy use strechs of track it would be worth raising the clerance of bridges just for the extra capacity it would bring.

I often for business meetings take the train many look at me oddly when I say that I travel via rail. But often wonder how I get so much work done before and after meetings. Normally on the way have read up and prepared with the very latest data, had a nap or eaten and afterwards dashed out emails in response to the meeting while the others still sit in their cars. I get home a little later sometimes but dont have to ignore the Wife once at home while responding to the emails already sent out by the nutter on the train

... Hear, hear!! Many thanks for your support, Iain & Andy, both.

[aromulus]

Just wanted to clarify my point ... interspersed with a wee bit of humour!