Apple to unveil new product

[joebloggs]

your not reading my response its quite clear, you said they stole it, I didn't say they invented it, you even admit it now in your follow up post that they licensed it and you ask where was you wrong?
Seems I try and be fair and reasonable and everytime someone responds changing the goal posts! Now tell me if I'm wrong lol

yes and although they were inspired by Xerox Parc to some degree it was Jeff Raskin who had ties with Xerox and brought attention to Steve Jobs, and he redefined and changed a lot of Xerox's UI, so the finished product was a lot more advanced.

Maybe you should take a look at these, i'm sure there is a lot more to read on the matter, first time I seen these links myself and I know I've read other pieces on the topic.

http://library.stanford.edu/mac/prim...skin/parc.html
http://mxmora.best.vwh.net/JefRaskin.html

yes your wrong, where in my post did i say they stole it ??, you've mentioned stealing in 3 posts up to now..


and you've admitted it yourself that the mouse and GUI came from Xerox, so how am i wrong ?? , oh hang on they didn't invent the mouse they had to get a license , still apple didn't invent them did they ????

oh i see you've used the word 'inspired by'

this is what i said
'they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts'

the mouse they did license it, well they had to as it had a patent on it

some at apple had worked at xerox, jobs had seen the GUI at xerox, yes of course they didn't copy it 100%, they made their own changes and improvements

I created this method for moving objects and making selections after finding the Xerox click-move-click method prone to error

When I joined Apple in 1978 I stopped visiting PARC to avoid any possible conflicts of interest.

I eventually wrote a memo that showed, point by point, that the one-button mouse could do everything that PARCs three-button mouse could do and with the same number or fewer user actions

I had observed that people (including myself) at PARC often made wrong-button errors in using the mouse, which was part of my impetus for doing better.

jef raskin quotes.

[complex]

yes your wrong, where in my post did i say they stole it ??, you've mentioned stealing in 3 posts up to now..

and you've admitted it yourself that the mouse and GUI came from Xerox, so how am i wrong ?? , oh hang on they didn't invent the mouse they had to get a license , still apple didn't invent them did they ????

oh i see you've used the word 'inspired by'

this is what i said
'they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts'

the mouse they did license it, well they had to as it had a patent on it

some at apple had worked at xerox, jobs had seen the GUI at xerox, yes of course they didn't copy it 100%, they made their own changes and improvements

I created this method for moving objects and making selections after finding the Xerox click-move-click method prone to error

When I joined Apple in 1978 I stopped visiting PARC to avoid any possible conflicts of interest.

I eventually wrote a memo that showed, point by point, that the one-button mouse could do everything that PARCs three-button mouse could do and with the same number or fewer user actions

I had observed that people (including myself) at PARC often made wrong-button errors in using the mouse, which was part of my impetus for doing better.

jef raskin quotes.

Hands up! Sorry I obviously thought you had implied apple stole when I read your post originally, you still seem to be implying they just used the GUI Xerox had and didn't change it considerably, did you read the links I posted, I'm sure when you learnt your computer history years ago, it wasn't told the way Raskin tells it now. And he pretty much says that himself.

This whole part of the argument stems from the fact I say Apple are well known for having a lot of R&D and you dispute this by saying they copy stuff, every company copies stuff, some do steal and not pay.

But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen.

RASKIN SAYS:
As I said in my history of the Mac Project (the one currently being serialized in CHAC), the Mac was by no means the work of one person, but the combined efforts of thousands in hundreds of companies large and small. It was not, as many accounts anachronistically relate, stolen from PARC by Steve Jobs after he saw the Alto running SmallTalk on a visit. For one thing the usual account (as in Levy's book, "Insanely Great" and others) denigrates the original and creative work done by all the Apple employees that put their hearts into the Mac.

And as far as the mouse goes, I was just trying to point out it wasn't merely a straight copy, i'm sure there must of been more under the hood optimisations apart from taking most of the buttons away. Surely the concept of the mouse is more important than how the mechanics work, and I think Apple redefined the concept by thinking about how it needed to be used, the same way they have done with touch interfaces.

[joebloggs]

But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen.

RASKIN SAYS:
As I said in my history of the Mac Project (the one currently being serialized in CHAC), the Mac was by no means the work of one person, but the combined efforts of thousands in hundreds of companies large and small. It was not, as many accounts anachronistically relate, stolen from PARC by Steve Jobs after he saw the Alto running SmallTalk on a visit. For one thing the usual account (as in Levy's book, "Insanely Great" and others) denigrates the original and creative work done by all the Apple employees that put their hearts into the Mac.

And as far as the mouse goes, I was just trying to point out it wasn't merely a straight copy, i'm sure there must of been more under the hood optimisations apart from taking most of the buttons away. Surely the concept of the mouse is more important than how the mechanics work, and I think Apple redefined the concept by thinking about how it needed to be used, the same way they have done with touch interfaces.

so you've quoted raskin, well he's some articles from horn and raskin

Trying to untangle the history is sometimes hard,

Time plays tricks on memory quotes by raskin.



http://inventors.about.com/gi/o.htm?...com/horn1.html

read all the articles how Raskin and Horn discuss Apple and Xerox, and argue about the facts

But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen

yes but some people at APPLE had already worked at PARC

anyway pointless in arguing about this.. i'm not saying jobs stole it, but he was at PARC, others had worked at PARC, many of Raskin quotes mentions PARCS GUI !!!.

i've not got an apple, i dont think i'll ever buy one, i have a pc, a mobile. i've no need ...but you never know ..........

[complex]

so you've quoted raskin, well he's some articles from horn and raskin

Trying to untangle the history is sometimes hard,

Time plays tricks on memory quotes by raskin.



http://inventors.about.com/gi/o.htm?...com/horn1.html

read all the articles how Raskin and Horn discuss Apple and Xerox, and argue about the facts

But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen

yes but some people at APPLE had already worked at PARC

anyway pointless in arguing about this.. i'm not saying jobs stole it, but he was at PARC, others had worked at PARC, many of Raskin quotes mentions PARCS GUI !!!.

i've not got an apple, i dont think i'll ever buy one, i have a pc, a mobile. i've no need ...but you never know ..........

I think I've read that before, but then again memory does play tricks, think I got a lose Ram chip.

The article seems to suggest even more so that the difference between the GUI at PARC and what become the Mac was "HUGE" to Quote Horn. So I think the term copy is a bit unfair on Apple as Raskin wrote it Denigrates all the hard work from the Mac team. The 2 fundamental things that have been in every Mac OS the Finder and Menu Bar both came from Apple, just wasn't from Xerox.

I think we both run out of steam on this now lol
Maybe someone will buy you an iPad for xmas!

[joebloggs]

The article seems to suggest even more so that the difference between the GUI at PARC and what become the Mac was "HUGE" to Quote Horn. So I think the term copy is a bit unfair on Apple as Raskin wrote it Denigrates all the hard work from the Mac team. The 2 fundamental things that have been in every Mac OS the Finder and Menu Bar both came from Apple, just wasn't from Xerox.

I think we both run out of steam on this now lol
Maybe someone will buy you an iPad for xmas!

of course they will say they are different, who wants to be known for being 'inspired by' by someone elses work , i suppose the ones who know are those from PARC

Xerox had click-and-drag in menus and for moving graphical objects long before Apple even existed as a company. In particular, Smalltalk-76 pop-up menus were click and drag. In my article I was talking about dragging files for file manipulation and drag & drop. PARC was a large organization with many groups doing research; it is not surprising that Raskin, as a visitor, did not see everything being done at PARC.



anyway i would rather have a HTC desire than a apple