I didn't say I was an authority, but its just well known if you have an interest in photography, so why are you so impressed by Megapixels should be the question, but just like any informed consumers that look into gadgets before buying, do some research and you would know this.Originally Posted by aromulus
And you would be an undisputed messianic autority on all this because.....???
The point I thought I was getting across, but you missed was, people shouldn't have to waste time optimising there computers and most people given the choice wouldn't want to, if your a nerdy geek tech programmer then like some guy who likes to build their own car you might like tinkering with your PC, this is why I say the iPad will fit in nicely with MOST peoples living rooms as a nice easy way to do some simple tasks.i dont hate macs, i just like the fact that if something on my pc dies, i can go to my local computer shop, buy a new psu/ mother board/dvd writer etc for a small amount of money and its up and running again in minutes
maybe your friend should try and optimise their pcas for loads of updates
,
even if that was so, updating the OS with fixes can only be a good thing
you've said it yourself you can customise the pc settings, so you can usually display what menus you want
as you've said you've got limited experience with pc's
so each to their own, i just want something that does the job and i can expand without costing me, who makes it i dont care, but for me, the PC range of s/w is far greater than for the Mac
As far as upgrading and replacing parts, PC's obviously have an upper hand, and extent of software, but iphone/ipad has thats same advantage currently if it matters much.
Some of the stuff you say is just laughable, "10 years as their R&D is well behind", even most PC zealots know Apple are strong in research and development and have many more patents than HTC have and are currently suing HTC, so your 20 years in Computers didn't really pay off lolYou'll find that we don't HATE Apple they are excellent marketers, the problem is that they aim at gullible people who constantly pay extra for inferior products.
Someone mentioned HTC, the version I bought in 2004 still does more than the Iphone, and well the new HTC I have, it'll take Apple at least 10 years to get to that level as their R&D is well behind.
In 2009 the OS with the worst security problems was Apple's. FACT. Check the official security site that covers all updates on all machines.
You can't win this discussion you are talking to people who have been programming, building, repairing computers for 20+ years.
Funny how you ignore my counter arguments when you stated other obvious BS about processors etc and you just come back with generalisations with no real facts!
yes some things about Apples security have been questioned over last few years but considering I haven't installed Virus software once on any of my 5 Macs, don't even have a firewall turned on (which maybe crazy), yet I know I sleep soundly while my mac sitting back in the UK is currently serving my torrents etc on 24/7 rebooted maybe every couple months for updates.
Maybe you spent most those 20 years fixing your broke PC's
My Filipina wife keeps telling me to stop arguing as no one will want to help us, but I told her not to worry we can all shake hands after a fight.
My Filipina wife keeps telling me to stop arguing as no one will want to help us, but I told her not to worry we can all shake hands after a fight.nothing wrong with a bit of banter
so dont get upset with us PC lot, it looks like you might be the only APPLE computer fan on here, seeing the PC has more than 90% of the market..
i like the pc becuase i can get under the bonnet, install what ever O/S i want..
as for your apple, i've had 100s of games installed on this PC. it's been on 24/7 for years, and in the past 3yrs i've probably only reinstalled XP only once and i'll not go into the reasons why i had to do that
and Apple R&D, they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts
as for processor speeds, i dont know seeing they use intel chips now, but motorola 68000 was an awsome processor back in the old days..
[QUOTE=complex;212867]instead of stealing? well we see the angle your coming from QUOTE]
I take exception to this offensive innuendo.
I have forgotten about photograpy far more than you will ever know about it.why do you want a 12megapixel camera on a phone, seriously its a waste of time, it wont improve the picture quality, if anything its likely to make it worse, add to memory you don't need, if you understand anything about Photography you would know this, this how people get suckered in, people moan the iPhones specs aren't up to scratch but if you look at numbers and think bigger is better than your sadly misinformed. (sure there will be some quips on bigger is better!
I have done research, and the Satio will be the camera phone of choice, if and when the various issues are sorted out.
Well I've not got a problem with windows users, just people who seem to think I was suckered into buying a mac because I'm gullable and somehow apple brain washed me. Im not rich and I spend my money wisely and the macs I've bought have and still serve me well many years, I can't say same for friends PCs of various varieties. I would recommend people even buy a pc if they want to play games or do some other tasks that macs can't match in terms of software!
i like the pc becuase i can get under the bonnet, install what ever O/S i want..
as for your apple, i've had 100s of games installed on this PC. it's been on 24/7 for years, and in the past 3yrs i've probably only reinstalled XP only once and i'll not go into the reasons why i had to do that
and Apple R&D, they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts
as for processor speeds, i dont know seeing they use intel chips now, but motorola 68000 was an awsome processor back in the old days..
I also know my computer history and to say apple stole the mouse would be consider inlamatory, I won't go into it but it's all searchable on the net how it came about. Where as only recently Microsoft was found to have used code that was spotted by someone and they had to apologise!
I think we can agree to disagree on most of this stuff lol so I won't speak on Mac v PC anymore!
i know my pc history, i've been using computers since the late 70's and the mouse was invented by Douglas C. Engelbart in 1967, tell me when the first apple was invented
and in 1973: Xerox Alto Computer which was the first computer to use a mouse, and i've studied all this as part of my degree course in IT
so tell me where i'm wrong ? , they didnt invent it, it was licensed to them, also jobs went to xerox in the late 70's thats where he saw the GUI.
Steve Jobs of Apple Computer toured the Xerox PARC facilities in 1979 and immediately recognized the utility of the GUI on the Alto. The design of Apple's Lisa computer, already under development, was changed to be GUI-based. Xerox also developed a GUI machine called the Star for the mass market, but both the Lisa and Star were flops due to their high price tags. It wasn't until the Macintosh was released in 1984 that the price point for mass-market appeal in a GUI machine was achieved
http://www.cedmagic.com/history/xerox-alto.html
your not reading my response its quite clear, you said they stole it, I didn't say they invented it, you even admit it now in your follow up post that they licensed it and you ask where was you wrong?
Seems I try and be fair and reasonable and everytime someone responds changing the goal posts! Now tell me if I'm wrong lol
yes and although they were inspired by Xerox Parc to some degree it was Jeff Raskin who had ties with Xerox and brought attention to Steve Jobs, and he redefined and changed a lot of Xerox's UI, so the finished product was a lot more advanced.
Maybe you should take a look at these, i'm sure there is a lot more to read on the matter, first time I seen these links myself and I know I've read other pieces on the topic.
http://library.stanford.edu/mac/prim...skin/parc.html
http://mxmora.best.vwh.net/JefRaskin.html
Also if I remember rightly before Apple introduced the first mainstream mouse all the others like the ones Xerox had were at least 4 button devices, which seemed far too complicated for the Macintosh concept.
[QUOTE=aromulus;213090]sorry if I offended you, I wasn't acusing you of stealing music, but merely posed the question as the obvious alternative to what I considered to be flippant comments from you or at worst just ignorrant!instead of stealing? well we see the angle your coming from QUOTE]
I take exception to this offensive innuendo.
I have forgotten about photograpy far more than you will ever know about it.
I have done research, and the Satio will be the camera phone of choice, if and when the various issues are sorted out.
And to say you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about photography must make you a mind reader, as I've not disclosed my credentials in photography, unlike you displaying your ignorrance of digital photography!
Now if you've researched that phone and it's the best phone of the type you want then that's fine, I was merely stating previously that it's a waste of megapixels, more a case of each manufacturer trying to out-do each other in the numbers war!
yes your wrong, where in my post did i say they stole it ??, you've mentioned stealing in 3 posts up to now..
and you've admitted it yourself that the mouse and GUI came from Xerox, so how am i wrong ?? , oh hang on they didn't invent the mouse they had to get a license
oh i see you've used the word 'inspired by'
this is what i said
'they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts'
the mouse they did license it, well they had to as it had a patent on it
some at apple had worked at xerox, jobs had seen the GUI at xerox, yes of course they didn't copy it 100%, they made their own changes and improvements
I created this method for moving objects and making selections after finding the Xerox click-move-click method prone to error
When I joined Apple in 1978 I stopped visiting PARC to avoid any possible conflicts of interest.
I eventually wrote a memo that showed, point by point, that the one-button mouse could do everything that PARCs three-button mouse could do and with the same number or fewer user actions
I had observed that people (including myself) at PARC often made wrong-button errors in using the mouse, which was part of my impetus for doing better.
jef raskin quotes.
I cant remeber all the applications the missus was trying to use but she simply wanted to listen to music and use a third party application and it simply would not let her. While like you say Apple software (created or suplied at the least) will be allowed to Multitask but third party applications on the whole are not it seems from my limited knowledge of the devices.
But it means its a stable OS.
But I would prefer to have web pages working away (Dont forget the cloud even apple want us working up their soon), my emails doing their stuff (downloading/uploading an attachment in the background), My word program spellchecking or find n replacing in the background as I nip over to my music player, while I also check my Pod cast downloads. While I fiddle with my Camera settings and use the photo editor which can process the photgraph while i do something else rather than watch an eggtimer
But not everybody is that ott with their multitasking and happy to wait.
I can think of several applications I need running in the background and even non Techy people do on other phones. It will be intresting if they dare go down the multitask with the next version
I have to say while i admire the making devices which even the least techy person can use and making them sleek and stylish. I have met some people I respect who like the simpleness of the Iphone and they are people who love comand lines and tinkering etc
Im not keen on the way the company is heading personally. I really dont like the lack of choice i know it makes it easy for Apple Tech support and even marketing with the limited models and locked down OS. But I do really worry that so much inovation is going to disapear or be locked down in the IT Industry. Mostly down to the crazy american patent laws which Apple and others use to their advantage and I dont blame them otherwise their shareholders would go loopy
Plus on a Phill UK tip which is why we are all
I dont like the fact that the battery and the memory are not easily replacable (I know you can do if you really want or pay 60 quid or so i belive) and expandable both things in particular when it comes to passing on to phill both very handy we have found in the past so they get more life out of the device
Oh lord why did you make so many clothes and shoe shops
Hands up! Sorry I obviously thought you had implied apple stole when I read your post originally, you still seem to be implying they just used the GUI Xerox had and didn't change it considerably, did you read the links I posted, I'm sure when you learnt your computer history years ago, it wasn't told the way Raskin tells it now. And he pretty much says that himself.yes your wrong, where in my post did i say they stole it ??, you've mentioned stealing in 3 posts up to now..
and you've admitted it yourself that the mouse and GUI came from Xerox, so how am i wrong ?? , oh hang on they didn't invent the mouse they had to get a license
oh i see you've used the word 'inspired by'
this is what i said
'they've copied things from other companies - the mouse, GUI all came from xerox as well as many other firsts'
the mouse they did license it, well they had to as it had a patent on it
some at apple had worked at xerox, jobs had seen the GUI at xerox, yes of course they didn't copy it 100%, they made their own changes and improvements
I created this method for moving objects and making selections after finding the Xerox click-move-click method prone to error
When I joined Apple in 1978 I stopped visiting PARC to avoid any possible conflicts of interest.
I eventually wrote a memo that showed, point by point, that the one-button mouse could do everything that PARCs three-button mouse could do and with the same number or fewer user actions
I had observed that people (including myself) at PARC often made wrong-button errors in using the mouse, which was part of my impetus for doing better.
jef raskin quotes.
This whole part of the argument stems from the fact I say Apple are well known for having a lot of R&D and you dispute this by saying they copy stuff, every company copies stuff, some do steal and not pay.
But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen.
RASKIN SAYS:
As I said in my history of the Mac Project (the one currently being serialized in CHAC), the Mac was by no means the work of one person, but the combined efforts of thousands in hundreds of companies large and small. It was not, as many accounts anachronistically relate, stolen from PARC by Steve Jobs after he saw the Alto running SmallTalk on a visit. For one thing the usual account (as in Levy's book, "Insanely Great" and others) denigrates the original and creative work done by all the Apple employees that put their hearts into the Mac.
And as far as the mouse goes, I was just trying to point out it wasn't merely a straight copy, i'm sure there must of been more under the hood optimisations apart from taking most of the buttons away. Surely the concept of the mouse is more important than how the mechanics work, and I think Apple redefined the concept by thinking about how it needed to be used, the same way they have done with touch interfaces.
The thing is, if everyone wanted to do this, which is making the phone sound like a desktop computer we would all probably be running Windows Mobile on our phones, the iphone doesn't down load attachment until you tell it, but thats probably because they don't wanna clog up the network which you gotta take into consideration, but it will check your mail and from what I know will refresh web pages when mobile safari isn't open. Spell checking a large text file on your phone? seriously? lol while editing photo's, well the only photo editing iv'e done on the iphone maybe takes a couple seconds to do, time it takes you to switch to another app, would be a waste of time switching which would then slow the background app dread to think if you was doing all those things how slow it would be, then you get a call and the phone crashes! lolBut I would prefer to have web pages working away (Dont forget the cloud even apple want us working up their soon), my emails doing their stuff (downloading/uploading an attachment in the background), My word program spellchecking or find n replacing in the background as I nip over to my music player, while I also check my Pod cast downloads. While I fiddle with my Camera settings and use the photo editor which can process the photgraph while i do something else rather than watch an eggtimer
I tend to go with the less is sometimes more idea and we don't need our devices to do everything just because we can have the internet in a fridge do we want it, sometimes people have to know when to put the brakes on. I suppose it just boils down to people don't like apple or any company telling them they cant do things, but then you buy another companies product.
Rumours are the next OS update will bring multitasking but I'm not convinced, I think maybe when the phones are more powerful and has better battery life, but I suspect they will still want to implement it in a way so that people don't end up accidentally running loads of apps they didn't realise were still open.
I think there are a lot of Mac users that would agree, but like you point out the positives for the company, not necessarily for the users are big, they have a streamline product range, makes it easier in many ways. Easier to manage supply levels and much more. Plus they only cater for the high end market, not making cheap underpowered devices. I always remember going into the Sony store in Tottenham Court road and counting no less than 43 different laptop models in the Sony range, I think Apple being more specialised is to their benefit. Could be said the same for the iPhone, while every other company is busy churning out model after model, Apple has one model that just seems to work for a lot of people.Im not keen on the way the company is heading personally. I really dont like the lack of choice i know it makes it easy for Apple Tech support and even marketing with the limited models and locked down OS. But I do really worry that so much inovation is going to disapear or be locked down in the IT Industry. Mostly down to the crazy american patent laws which Apple and others use to their advantage and I dont blame them otherwise their shareholders would go loopy
so you've quoted raskin, well he's some articles from horn and raskin
Trying to untangle the history is sometimes hard,
Time plays tricks on memory quotes by raskin.
http://inventors.about.com/gi/o.htm?...com/horn1.html
read all the articles how Raskin and Horn discuss Apple and Xerox, and argue about the facts
But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen
yes but some people at APPLE had already worked at PARC
anyway pointless in arguing about this.. i'm not saying jobs stole it, but he was at PARC, others had worked at PARC, many of Raskin quotes mentions PARCS GUI !!!.
i've not got an apple, i dont think i'll ever buy one, i have a pc, a mobile. i've no need ...but you never know
I think I've read that before, but then again memory does play tricks, think I got a lose Ram chip.so you've quoted raskin, well he's some articles from horn and raskin
Trying to untangle the history is sometimes hard,
Time plays tricks on memory quotes by raskin.
http://inventors.about.com/gi/o.htm?...com/horn1.html
read all the articles how Raskin and Horn discuss Apple and Xerox, and argue about the facts
But one thing you did say was Jobs went to Parc and thats when he saw the GUI, but as Raskin says the project started way before that, so that wasnt the pivotable moment when a lot or people (not you) say it was then stolen
yes but some people at APPLE had already worked at PARC
anyway pointless in arguing about this.. i'm not saying jobs stole it, but he was at PARC, others had worked at PARC, many of Raskin quotes mentions PARCS GUI !!!.
i've not got an apple, i dont think i'll ever buy one, i have a pc, a mobile. i've no need ...but you never know
The article seems to suggest even more so that the difference between the GUI at PARC and what become the Mac was "HUGE" to Quote Horn. So I think the term copy is a bit unfair on Apple as Raskin wrote it Denigrates all the hard work from the Mac team. The 2 fundamental things that have been in every Mac OS the Finder and Menu Bar both came from Apple, just wasn't from Xerox.
I think we both run out of steam on this now lol
Maybe someone will buy you an iPad for xmas!
of course they will say they are different, who wants to be known for being 'inspired by' by someone elses work
Xerox had click-and-drag in menus and for moving graphical objects long before Apple even existed as a company. In particular, Smalltalk-76 pop-up menus were click and drag. In my article I was talking about dragging files for file manipulation and drag & drop. PARC was a large organization with many groups doing research; it is not surprising that Raskin, as a visitor, did not see everything being done at PARC.
anyway i would rather have a HTC desire than a apple
I`d rather have an Orange.anyway i would rather have a HTC desire than a apple
Hang on..That gives me an idea!
[QUOTE=complex;213311]The thing is, if everyone wanted to do this, which is making the phone sound like a desktop computer we would all probably be running Windows Mobile on our phones, the iphone doesn't down load attachment until you tell it, but thats probably because they don't wanna clog up the network which you gotta take into consideration, but it will check your mail and from what I know will refresh web pages when mobile safari isn't open. Spell checking a large text file on your phone? seriously? lol while editing photo's, well the only photo editing iv'e done on the iphone maybe takes a couple seconds to do, time it takes you to switch to another app, would be a waste of time switching which would then slow the background app dread to think if you was doing all those things how slow it would be, then you get a call and the phone crashes! lol
I tend to go with the less is sometimes more idea and we don't need our devices to do everything just because we can have the internet in a fridge do we want it, sometimes people have to know when to put the brakes on. I suppose it just boils down to people don't like apple or any company telling them they cant do things, but then you buy another companies product.
QUOTE]
My N900 does allow me to run both open office and use gimp (Open source rule ok) in a Debian VM at the same time runs a tad slowly like a few years old spec pc rather than todays latest. But means i can edit a picture with lots of choice of editing options and paste into a document if i so wish other phones i have and ones i owned in the past have done the same.
The last few phones i have owned have spell check large documents are you seriously telling me the Iphone cant? I thought it meant i could leave my laptop at home
With regards Emails the downloads would be ones i select rather than simply downloading for the sake of it just as with an iphone.As these can be quite a few meg i dont want to waste time watching it download so i get on with other things..
One thing i belive that clogs up the network as much as downloads is the Iphone and its power save method where it shuts connections and then reopens them which causes untold havoc with cells from what i understand..
The N900 has the same spec roughly as the 3gs from what i understand.
As you say the iphone is an appliance ie a phone which can run programs. While the n900 is a computer which can take calls which suits my needs..
Which is my argument that choice is important I think the Iphone is very useful and well designed for Apple. But what happens if all we have is a few very basic choices of phone which are all made to under perform so they are more realiable so less helpdesk calls etc...
It would be like a world with just a small choice of cars and very little difference. Handy for many but already many I know who have had Iphone for a few models now look at other models as they find the iphone jack of all trades master of none means its not what they really need.
Now with many other phones having a iphone browser agent mode to dumb down the browser for quicker browsing many realise if they want to browse face book or what not that possibly the iphone is not what they need..
Oh lord why did you make so many clothes and shoe shops
I fully agree with this article regarding the Apple "Experience"
So, at the American (i.e. global) launch of the iPad earlier this year, Apple boss Steve Jobs told the audience how the iPad would provide them with a 'good email experience' and 'a nice keyboard experience'.
'Holding it in your hand is an incredible experience,' he added.
'How directly you engage with it ... the only word is magical.'
A good email experience? Magical? how on Earth can the electronic conveyance of paragraphs, or the tapping of fingers on buttons be seriously described as in such elevated terms?
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz0pSZgM24G
Phones are now moving onto 4G so expect Apple to rush out a new product in 2012
Keith - Administrator
Holding my laptop is a truly er, magical experience and its amazing how it does stuff when I press buttons.
Meanwhile back in the real world.....I have bills to pay, a car that needs fixing and various assorted stuff needs sorting out, and having a magical experience with an i-trap will have to wait...forever.
Reminds me of that song...If You Buy This Record Your Life Will Be Better
No good for Aberystwyth, we're stuck on 0.5GPhones are now moving onto 4G so expect Apple to rush out a new product in 2012Probably get 3G sometime in 2058
Aww I missed this arguament (oops discussion)
I recently had to deliver an i-Pad bought in america so saw it first hand and held it!!!
Overated methinks
I get the I-phone,I-pod touch useful gadgets but the problem i think with the I-Pad is it's too big to stuff in your pocket so you might as well use a netbook,laptop or pc since you have many more features and uses.
It certainly feels tactile and is a nice display but thats as far as it goes and much too expensive
Plus other manufactureers are bringing them out at sub-£200 pricesIt certainly feels tactile and is a nice display but thats as far as it goes and much too expensive
Keith - Administrator
I saw a comment on facebook the other day that made me smileAww I missed this arguament (oops discussion)
I recently had to deliver an i-Pad bought in america so saw it first hand and held it!!!
Overated methinks
I get the I-phone,I-pod touch useful gadgets but the problem i think with the I-Pad is it's too big to stuff in your pocket so you might as well use a netbook,laptop or pc since you have many more features and uses.
It certainly feels tactile and is a nice display but thats as far as it goes and much too expensive
"the Ipad Keyboard dock is absolutely superb, you don't need a Pc with this one"
I doubt it myself, but it actually costs far more than a PC anyway
It's a shame the person who wrote the comment hasn't been active on this forum for a few months as I'm sure he'd add to the debate.
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