Originally Posted by aposhark
Life's full of those little moments... like the image you've posted, Mike! Proves you haven't lost your sense of humour, my friend.
Life's full of those little moments
One of the big mistakes of the Christian faith (and probably many others) has been its attempts to invoke God via the argument of intelligent design.Yep, I'm the same - I want proof before I commit to believing in something, or dedicating my life to it. But in the case of God nobody can prove his existence or nonexistence. On Nigel's thread, "If you could teach the world one thing..." My reply was that if we taught kids from an early age about the "facts" of religion - that we don't actually know all the answers, sometime in the future one of those kids might grow up and work it all out
Religion has got pretty messed up over the years, no doubt about it, and even though I don't adhere to any of them I'm pretty certain there is intelligent design to everything in the universe
Intelligent design like many other religious concepts attempts to REDUCE God to a level comprehensible by humans instead of attempting to expand our comprehension to approach the sheer wonder of an existence on the inside of a 13.5 billion year old probability explosion.
Just try to get your mind around the sheer size of the reality we live in.....
Every concept of God that I have ever seen fails horribly in terms of scale, the sheer scale of what religion calls Creation and science calls the Universe (in reality more likely the Multiverse) is so much larger in both time and space than this small planet and its population of a thin skin of animated carbon based compounds.
We as a species have been here for the blink of an eye, we might not be here for much longer, so why is the creation malarkey so big, what was it doing all that time before we woke up?
My point is that God in the conventional sense is human like, with behaviour and emotional judgement not unlike our own human judgement, as a favourite author once said "most religions cooked up a God that has the manners and morals of a spoiled child" (think old testament tantrums).
The place we live in and the stuff we are made of has an unbelievable beauty in terms of its behaviour and the math describing that behaviour, what we see around us and what we are is the emergent behaviour of the materials from which we are made and the fundamental rules that govern the interactions of said materials.
If you want to call that God then go ahead, for me at least you would be welcome, the rules, the math, the fabric might as well be God at least that God would be on the same scale as the observable Universe, the alternative is proposing a God that is outside and disconnected from the Creation/Universe and then we are back to the "why is it so big and why so complex a creation"? question.
If you stretch the scale even further, taking into account potential mathematical evidence (and possibly some observational evidence) for a multiverse, where does that leave a local benevolent God modelled on a human pattern with human like concerns about our behaviour?
It's a big place people and it's a very beautiful and mysterious place, it may well have a force behind it but it is unlikely in my opinion to be the God of the Christian faith or that of any other contemporary faiths.
One last thing in a recent bit of research that I had to conduct into finding the best current available solutions to a particular business problem known as the Job Shop Scheduling Problem, I had to investigate Genetic Algorithms and programming. I can point you at simple fully working examples of programs that will EVOLVE the answer to complex optimisation problems in a relatively short space of time by employing Darwinian evolution in a mathematical model inside a computer program, hell give me a few more weeks and I will probably be writing this kind of code myself, it's fascinating and for me I can see more of a universal God in the Maths underlying our reality than I can in the consciousness of human beings inhabiting it.
How I wish I could customize this thread as invisible for us Filipina, coz of some opinions that are offended of what we believe. In the past there's a lot of thread ended up like this, but we Filipina mostly keeping silent and didn't posted as much as we want in order for us to defend what we believe, coz of the languagethat we have to use...oh well maybe it's just me
.....I'd rather ignore it than to have a terrible nose bleed
To my dear kuya Arthur I know it's not your intention to end up like thisand to our Gentleman here.....let's move on and clear the air....
Don't make promises when you are in JOY. Don't reply when you are SAD.
Don't take decisions when you are ANGRY. Think twice, Act wise. BE happy.
I would second that, Arthur is a good man!Arthur's integrity is never in doubt to me and the many forum members whom he has personally supported through their good and bad news. That's why he is a trusted member. To become one you have to earn respect over time. It's not easily achieved and rightly so. Anything I say related to health is evidence based, not opinion alone.
There is a huge amount of evidence supporting Arthur's trusted status on this forum. I trust him implicitly
I must confess that I had not read all of the thread before I posted my own take on things last night and had not realised the passions that had been stirred up
For myself I was born and brought up in the Catholic faith, I had issues with the faith as a young man in part because of of the way we were taught and in part because of my intense interest in science.
Aged 14 our Religious Knowledge (RK) teacher Father Diamond changed tack and introduced the argument by design, now up to that point there had been no arguments no philosophy and only bold statements of fact, this is how it all happened and this is what you will believe etc. So it was odd that suddenly when we were around about 14 years old they felt the need to prove things to us
To cut a long story short our RK class turned into a heated debate chamber for the next several weeks, I was a very shy young man at the time very odd for me to speak out the way I did, anyway eventually we agreed that it boiled down to faith, you either had it or you didn't.
I regret that argument now because many in my class at school were swayed by my arguments, in favour of Science and "proof", so as time has passed and my overall experience of life has grown and also as my studies in subject areas that interest me have expanded, I have grown to realise that Scientific certainty and "proof" is actually rather thin on the ground.
This does not diminish my view that Science, Natural Philosophy and Mathematics offer a unique and wonderful, beautiful insight into the nature of our reality however there are specific questions as to what constitute a proof.
Gödel's incompleteness theorems are extremely important in this context see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...eness_theorems
The following is a quote from Wikibooks realting to Kurt Godel
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Purpose...servation_Laws
Gödel's work implies that there are things that are intrinsically unknowable and that is the kind of thing that mellows ones attitude particularly as you get a bit older.Kurt Gödel, in a paper published in 1931, proved that any mathematical system that includes the natural numbers (1, 2, 3, and so on) contains questions whose answers can neither be proved nor disproved using the axioms to be found within that system. This is now known as Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. It implies that there are many mathematical truths that can never be proved, and, by extension, that any system will contain questions that cannot be answered from within that system. Since any meaningful questions that we might ask about the nature of any possible supersystem will inevitably involve use of the natural numbers, there are questions we will never be able to answer. Asking if our universe was “designed to meet some kind of purpose,” is just one such question.
This bites both ways, those who have faith and believe in God must accept that they have no proof as by definition they believe through their faith i.e. on trust. Those who demand proof must accept that the Philosophical systems upon which their doubt is based may well be unprovable and that absolute proof of all postulates is impossible!
Stalemate, somewhere near where I found myself at the age of 14 in an argument with a very generous, very understanding, good man, who happened to be a priest in the Catholic faith.
For what it is worth I attend church with my partner Ana in Manila regular as clockwork every Sunday and sometimes weekdays as well, she knows I have strange views that don't exactly mesh with the way she was brought up however she understands that I somehow have a big picture in my mind that is not entirely aesthetic. I can go to church and celebrate the wonder of the creation/universe that I find myself in, its been a wonderful experience existing
Jim
isn't strange to pay so much taxes and get back what?Isn't it strange how £20 seems such a large amount when you donate it to the Church ... but such a small amount when you go shopping?
I do believe in GOD and all about his teaching....and my son will surely follow that
and i do love sitting in front all the time...as i dont want to hear some gossiper talking at the back while the pastor is doing his sermon
Quite right! Sadly,and i do love sitting in front all the time...as i dont want to hear some gossiper talking at the back while the pastor is doing his sermonI have to admit there does seem to be a propensity to engage in [sometimes] malicious gossip
among church members ... the very folk you'd think ought to be "above that sort of thing"! And, there's often a tendency towards *cliquishness also! But, of course, this is liable to be the case WHEREVER large numbers of people are initially gathered together ... and *then drift off into small groups of like-minded souls.
I agree Leah, just simple English will do, you say 'admire'....most people don't like show off's.How I wish I could customize this thread as invisible for us Filipina, coz of some opinions that are offended of what we believe. In the past there's a lot of thread ended up like this, but we Filipina mostly keeping silent and didn't posted as much as we want in order for us to defend what we believe, coz of the language
To my dear kuya Arthur I know it's not your intention to end up like this
This is not a book club
Like you said, many here are just picking up the lingo. I can assure the readers, which more than out number the posters that this how we don't talk it either in the UK
I do believe in GOD and all about his teaching....and my son will surely follow that
im a methodist church member sir arthur..and attended catholics school...talking about GOD...im not into debate but just wnat to point out what i believe in....and for me i dont need proof to believe...as faith doesnt depends on proofs. I described GOD as a wind..we feel it but dont see it. Many have tried tracing Jesus but no one finds proof of his existence...mainly b'coz the bible tells no one can trace GOD!!!!...my husband dont believe in GOD but i have encouraged him to go with me in many occassions...and now he always say "lets pray "Quite right! Sadly,
me tooi have encouraged him to go with me in many occassions...
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
Excellent post Jim.I would second that, Arthur is a good man!
I must confess that I had not read all of the thread before I posted my own take on things last night and had not realised the passions that had been stirred up
For myself I was born and brought up in the Catholic faith, I had issues with the faith as a young man in part because of of the way we were taught and in part because of my intense interest in science.
Aged 14 our Religious Knowledge (RK) teacher Father Diamond changed tack and introduced the argument by design, now up to that point there had been no arguments no philosophy and only bold statements of fact, this is how it all happened and this is what you will believe etc. So it was odd that suddenly when we were around about 14 years old they felt the need to prove things to us
To cut a long story short our RK class turned into a heated debate chamber for the next several weeks, I was a very shy young man at the time very odd for me to speak out the way I did, anyway eventually we agreed that it boiled down to faith, you either had it or you didn't.
I regret that argument now because many in my class at school were swayed by my arguments, in favour of Science and "proof", so as time has passed and my overall experience of life has grown and also as my studies in subject areas that interest me have expanded, I have grown to realise that Scientific certainty and "proof" is actually rather thin on the ground.
This does not diminish my view that Science, Natural Philosophy and Mathematics offer a unique and wonderful, beautiful insight into the nature of our reality however there are specific questions as to what constitute a proof.
Gödel's incompleteness theorems are extremely important in this context see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems
The following is a quote from Wikibooks realting to Kurt Godel
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Purpose...servation_Laws
Gödel's work implies that there are things that are intrinsically unknowable and that is the kind of thing that mellows ones attitude particularly as you get a bit older.
This bites both ways, those who have faith and believe in God must accept that they have no proof as by definition they believe through their faith i.e. on trust. Those who demand proof must accept that the Philosophical systems upon which their doubt is based may well be unprovable and that absolute proof of all postulates is impossible!
Stalemate, somewhere near where I found myself at the age of 14 in an argument with a very generous, very understanding, good man, who happened to be a priest in the Catholic faith.
For what it is worth I attend church with my partner Ana in Manila regular as clockwork every Sunday and sometimes weekdays as well, she knows I have strange views that don't exactly mesh with the way she was brought up however she understands that I somehow have a big picture in my mind that is not entirely aesthetic. I can go to church and celebrate the wonder of the creation/universe that I find myself in, its been a wonderful experience existing
Jim
Sums it all up IMO...Why people are still prepared to argue and fight with absolutely NOTHING in their armoury on either side is way beyond me Im afraid.
Its ironic how many people die each day in this world for holding similar beliefs.
Faith on either side is personal and should stay that way..
They simply cant help themselves I guess.
!
im a methodist church member sir arthur..and attended catholics school...talking about GOD...im not into debate but just wnat to point out what i believe in....!...my husband dont believe in GOD but i have encouraged him to go with me in many occassions...and now he always say "lets pray "can achieve for a man!
The words in bold indicate for me what I believe about religion, Fred.Excellent post Jim.
Sums it all up IMO...Why people are still prepared to argue and fight with absolutely NOTHING in their armoury on either side is way beyond me Im afraid.
Its ironic how many people die each day in this world for holding similar beliefs.
Faith on either side is personal and should stay that way..
They simply cant help themselves I guess.
I am willing to bet you have beliefs which you are passionate about
People often rant on this forum about things which others could not care one jot, one reason why there is a rant section.
We are all individuals yet groups of individuals pat each other on the back trying to justify their ideology.
Religious people who post here many times about "god" and "jesus" for example hopefully realise that others have opposite views.
They all get flustered and angry when athiests ask for proof.
Some things that concern you would likewise not concern others.
Apo, your posts on this thread and your 'cardinal' thread are peppered with contradictions, have you been taking lessons from queenbeee?The words in bold indicate for me what I believe about religion, Fred.
I am willing to bet you have beliefs which you are passionate about
People often rant on this forum about things which others could not care one jot, one reason why there is a rant section.
We are all individuals yet groups of individuals pat each other on the back trying to justify their ideology.
Religious people who post here many times about "god" and "jesus" for example hopefully realise that others have opposite views.
They all get flustered and angry when athiests ask for proof.
Some things that concern you would likewise not concern others.
I think you will find it is you and you only getting 'flustered' and 'angry' so, like you said, 'more important thing to talk about'
If you want to rant on and continute in this vein then, carry on.
Apo, so why post your views on something you clearly want to know nothing about?? Didn't you say in a previous post that you should keep your ideas to yourself ??
Pot, kettle and black spring to mind.
At the end of the day, you believe what you want, let others believe what they want, if you need proof one way or the other, find it yourself, and keep it to yourself. Other people dont really care for your conclusions.
You are a joker, aren't you
Apo, so why post your views on something you clearly want to know nothing about?? Didn't you say in a previous post that you should keep your ideas to yourself ??
Pot, kettle and black spring to mind.
At the end of the day, you believe what you want, let others believe what they want, if you need proof one way or the other, find it yourself, and keep it to yourself. Other people dont really care for your conclusions.
I don't know how many times I have to mention this, but it is about balance. on this forum.
It is my fervent belief that this forum should not be taken over by religious overtones.
This is page 8 so people do care.
Filipinos that come to the UK will mostly meet people who do not go to church.
Christianity is in decline, get used to it.
Who is ranting?Apo, your posts on this thread and your 'cardinal' thread are peppered with contradictions, have you been taking lessons from queenbeee?
I think you will find it is you and you only getting 'flustered' and 'angry' so, like you said, 'more important thing to talk about'
If you want to rant on and continute in this vein then, carry on.
I am afraid it is you that rants Apo.Who is ranting?
We all have shown tollerance and respect for all views. Maybe that is a religeous view, or maybe it is just a basic moralistic view on how we treat others. If you have any respect for people, whether they have belifes or not, you would not have to think you have to fight a cause for which you also have no proof.
Now, all that said, I am sure you will not be able to let this lie. You will have to have the last word because you think you are loosing. If that is the case, choose wisely, you are no doing yourself any favours, and that is just my personal view. We can all make arses of ourselves, just some do it more publically than others.
You are not very comfortable with balance are you Steve?I am afraid it is you that rants Apo.
We all have shown tollerance and respect for all views. Maybe that is a religeous view, or maybe it is just a basic moralistic view on how we treat others. If you have any respect for people, whether they have belifes or not, you would not have to think you have to fight a cause for which you also have no proof.
Now, all that said, I am sure you will not be able to let this lie. You will have to have the last word because you think you are loosing. If that is the case, choose wisely, you are no doing yourself any favours, and that is just my personal view. We can all make arses of ourselves, just some do it more publically than others.
Once again, I do not need to give you any proof as there is no "god"
If there is, let everyone know what it is please.
I do not think I am loosing (sic), what on earth gave you that idea?
Do use a spell checker by the way, don't make an "****" of yourself, and don't be afraid
Ha ha!! you lose,
If you have to reply, and of course you will have to reply, try to be nice and play fair ok.
whats strange is this thread is 8 pages long?
i think apo is enjoying himself
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
whats strange is this thread is 8 pages long?NEVER, in my wildest dreams, did I imagine it would reach THIS length!
Only you could pull this one off Arthur (in a manner of speaking)
"god" cannot strike you down because "it" doesn't exist.Ha ha!! you lose,
If you have to reply, and of course you will have to reply, try to be nice and play fair ok.
So you are safe
Is that fair enough for you?
I always enjoy taking religious bods to task.whats strange is this thread is 8 pages long?
i think apo is enjoying himself
Whether (or should it be weather for Steve.r
Us atheists have thick skins but we don't have knobbly knees because we don't have to kneel down begging for forgiveness (oops confessing) on the other side of a curtain
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