The fall of Britain, the fall of the Roman Empire.

[RickyR]

Along a similar vain to the Dedworths regular Daily Mail enraged posts about the decline of society in Britain.

These are some of the reasons cited that the Roman Empire fell, I wonder how relevent they are today.

Antagonism between the Senate and the EmperorThe Roman Emperor had the legal power to rule Rome’s religious, civil and military affairs with the Senate acting as an advisory body. The emperor had power over life and death. As in the old sayings "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and ""Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it". The powerful, wealthy Roman Emperors inevitably became corrupt and many lived a debauched and immoral lifestyle. The Roman Empire saw divisions between the Senate and the Emperors. Either the Senate didn't like the Emperor or the Emperors was at odds with the Senate.


Decline in MoralsA decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Political Corruption and the Praetorian GuardThe power of the Praetorian Guard, the elite bodyguards of the emperor, led to political corruption and grew to such an extent that this massive troop of soldiers decided on whether an emperor should be disposed of and who should become the new emperor! The story of Sejanus, who was the commander of the Praetorian Guard during the reign of Tiberius, illustrates the extent of their power. At one point the Praetorian Guard sold at auction the throne of the world to the highest bidder.

Rapid Growth of the Empire
The rapid growth of the Empire led to the need to defend the borders and territories of Rome. The people of the conquered lands, most of whom were referred to as Barbarians, hated the Romans. Taxes on the foreigners were high and constantly increased. Frequent rebellions arose.

Constant Wars and Heavy Military Spending
Constant warfare required heavy military spending. The Roman army became over-stretched. The barbarians, who had been conquered, and other foreign mercenaries were allowed to join the Roman army.

Q. Reason why the Roman Empire fell? Constant Wars and Heavy Military Spending

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Barbarian Knowledge of Roman Military Tactics
The knowledge that the Barbarians gained of Roman warfare and military tactics by serving in the Roman army were eventually turned against the Empire and led to the sack of Rome by the Visigoths led by an ex-army soldier Alaric.

Q. Reason why the Roman Empire fell? Barbarian Knowledge of Roman Military Tactics

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Failing Economy
The Government was constantly threatened by bankruptcy. The cost of defending the Empire, the failing economics, heavy taxation and high inflation was another reason why the Roman Empire fell. The majority of the inhabitants of the Roman Empire failed to share in the incredible prosperity of Rome. The flow of gold to the orient to pay for luxury goods led to a shortage of gold to put in Roman coins. Roman currency was devalued to such an extent that a system of bartering returned to one of the greatest civilisations the world had ever known.

Q. Reason why the Roman Empire fell? Failing Economy

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Unemployment of the Working Classes (The Plebs)
Cheap slave labor in turn resulted in the unemployment of the the people of Rome who became dependent on hand-outs from the state. The Romans attempted a policy of unrestricted trade but this led to working class Romans being unable to compete with foreign trade. The government were therefore forced to subsidize the working class Romans to make up the differences in prices. This resulted in thousands of Romans choosing just to live on the subsides sacrificing their standard of living with an idle life of ease. The massive divide between the rich and the poor increased still further.

Q. Reason why the Roman Empire fell? Unemployment of the Working Classes (The Plebs)

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - The 'Mob' and the cost of the 'Games'
If the thousands of unemployed Romans became bored this led to civil unrest and rioting in the streets. The 'Mob' needed to be amused - the gladiatorial games had to be provided. The cost of the gladiatorial games was born by the Emperors, and therefore the state, and corrupt politicians who sponsored the games to curry favor and support with the 'Mob'. The cost of the gladiatorial games eventually came to one third of the total income of the Empire.

Q. Reason why the Roman Empire fell? The 'Mob' and the cost of the 'Games'

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Decline in Ethics and Values
Life became cheap - bloodshed led to more bloodshed and extreme cruelty. The values, the ideals, customs, traditions and institutions, of the Romans declined. The basic principles, standards and judgments about what was valuable or important in life also declined. The total disregard for human and animal life resulted in a lack of ethics - a perverted view of what was right and wrong, good and bad, desirable and undesirable. Any conformity to acceptable rules or standards of human behaviour were being lost.

Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Natural Disasters
During the time of the Roman Empire there were not only foreign wars, civil wars, street fights, fires and revolts there were also natural disasters such as plagues, famines and earthquakes. As in all periods and societies the people looked for someone to blame and different religions to turn to.

[laurel]

Much is relevant, we heve been a much blessed nation, along with America maybe THE most blessed in history .

Now we are losing it all slowly but surely, and America will probably not be far behind .
From being a revered nation and society, we are gradually becoming despised.

[Pete/London]

No mention of the fact they used lead pipes in their water supplies and slowly poisoned themselves. It was a fact or myth I picked up somewhere.

They same was said of the donkeys that led our brave armed forces during the first world war. They used to plot the battles on maps using lead soldiers and would suck them while thinking about the tactics. sounds plausible

[RickyR]

Much is relevant, we heve been a much blessed nation, along with America maybe THE most blessed in history .

Now we are losing it all slowly but surely, and America will probably not be far behind .
From being a revered nation and society, we are gradually becoming despised.

Despised? Maybe not quite so far, but 'unimportant' yes. But I agree with everything else you said.

[laurel]

When I say despised Rick , I honestly believe that we are on that road.
Unimportant ? , certainly and increasingly so .........despised ?? its going that way.

[joebloggs]

maybe less important but ameria is still the number 1 super power in the world

[KeithD]

No power rules forever, countries and borders are changing even to this day, look at Yugoslavia. One day we'll all be speaking Chinese but at least the food will be nice

[joebloggs]

. One day we'll all be speaking Chinese

no chance, after knowing the misses for 10yrs i still only know a few words of tagalog

[grahamw48]

We are going the Roman way, slowly but surely.

Also factor in the enormous expansion of the human population, whereby we are becoming no different from a plague of rats or locusts, and we all know what happens to them.

The difference being that as a species we CAN exercise restraint.

Sadly that won't happen though, as our problems are global this time and billions will go the way of the locusts,

The balance of nature will be restored...as ever.

[bornatbirth]

do we have time for xmas before we are all doomed

[KeithD]

What if every human gets wiped out and the only 2 survivors are Nigel and his missus .... they'll breed a totally new species

[bornatbirth]

and all women will wear kinky boots

[JimOttley]

No power rules forever, countries and borders are changing even to this day, look at Yugoslavia. One day we'll all be speaking Chinese but at least the food will be nice

Barrington Bailey wrote sci-fi novel back in the 70's I think it was "Collision with Chronos", in it he wrote about a future world where space had been conquered and colonised by the Chinese I remember thinking at the time how prophetic an idea that probably was, he was working largely on an extrapolation of the demographics, even though China even at that time had the one child limit policy.

[Englishman2010]

Barrington Bailey wrote sci-fi novel back in the 70's I think it was "Collision with Chronos", in it he wrote about a future world where space had been conquered and colonised by the Chinese I remember thinking at the time how prophetic an idea that probably was, he was working largely on an extrapolation of the demographics, even though China even at that time had the one child limit policy.

They've already bought up huge chunks of South America and Africa for mineral rights, if they come to the rescue of North American and European banks, we should start to be very worried

[JimOttley]

China is still the largest US bondholder, they have effectively done that already by proxy.

They are not quite big enough yet to come to the western world's rescue and one must always remember that their own prosperity is, like everyone else's, deeply entwined with the west's.

[joebloggs]

They are not quite big enough yet to come to the western world's rescue and one must always remember that their own prosperity is, like everyone else's, deeply entwined with the west's.

In 1985 average income in China was $293; in 2006 the average income is $2,025.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTE...318950,00.html

but

About 13 percent of China’s population—about 203 million people— live on less than $1 a day. About 42 percent of China’s population—about 593 million people— live on less than $2 a day. Most are in the countryside.

Children in textile and garment factories often work 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and sleep by their machines. Boys in Green Mountain City gets paid about 18 cents a load for carrying 55 pound bags of coal up a mountain. Even in the cities, a school teacher with a salary of $50 a month—good by Chinese standards—might have to save for two years to be able to afford a bicycle. Married couples often live apart, sometimes in opposite corners of the country, working at different places. They only time the get to see each other is during holidays, three weeks a year.
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php...11&subcatid=70

what ever happened to communism
average was is $2000 yet 40% live on less than 2usd a day

[JimOttley]

In 1985 average income in China was $293; in 2006 the average income is $2,025.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTE...318950,00.html

but

About 13 percent of China’s population—about 203 million people— live on less than $1 a day. About 42 percent of China’s population—about 593 million people— live on less than $2 a day. Most are in the countryside.

Children in textile and garment factories often work 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and sleep by their machines. Boys in Green Mountain City gets paid about 18 cents a load for carrying 55 pound bags of coal up a mountain. Even in the cities, a school teacher with a salary of $50 a month—good by Chinese standards—might have to save for two years to be able to afford a bicycle. Married couples often live apart, sometimes in opposite corners of the country, working at different places. They only time the get to see each other is during holidays, three weeks a year.
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php...11&subcatid=70

what ever happened to communism
average was is $2000 yet 40% live on less than 2usd a day

Which makes it all the more obscene that they are America's number one bondholder. China helped to keep America's long boom funded, if western governments end up defaulting on the bonds or if the west inflates the debt away over the next decade or so then it's these self same impoverished slave driven workers that in modern parlance "take a haircut" :( one way or another.

[grahamw48]

I like Chinese ladies.

[Englishman2010]

what ever happened to communism
average was is $2000 yet 40% live on less than 2usd a day

It only takes a small percentage of people on a few million a year to distort that average income figure. If the very rich were taken out of the equation, the average would probably be a lot closer to the 2 dollars a day you've quoted.

Income per capita figures for all economies are distorted in the same way. It would be better if statisticians quoted the 'mean' figures rather than an average.

[Arthur Little]

do we have time for xmas before we are all doomed

... you've been listening to too many fairy stories from Jehovah Witnesses shivering on your doorstep!

[JimOttley]

China is still the largest US bondholder, they have effectively done that already by proxy.

They are not quite big enough yet to come to the western world's rescue and one must always remember that their own prosperity is, like everyone else's, deeply entwined with the west's.

I spoke too soon http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12065731 China offers support to eurozone.

[bornatbirth]

... you've been listening to too many fairy stories from Jehovah Witnesses shivering on your doorstep!

nope, just reading the posts on this forum.

wheres nigel to spread the happiness

[Englishman2010]

I spoke too soon http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12065731 China offers support to eurozone.

It was only a matter of time, and it's only a matter of time until China is the largest economy in the world. We've had our 500 years or so being one of the worlds largest economies, becoming the worlds first industrialised nation and preaching to others about how good our democratic and economic models are...I suppose it has to be someone elses turn soon. Maybe one day we will all migrate to the developing world to sponge off their welfare state

[Terpe]

Warning Rant begins:-

Maybe we should throw away our old economics textbooks.
They were written in far different world (19th and 20th centuries).

The principle of comparative advantage has been replaced by another economic model.

China is manipulating its currency aimed at rendering advanced economies uncompetitive in the Chinese market. Plus brazen regulations in China which are overt protectionist policies.
The Chinese are economic nationalists.

The rise of capitalist ideas in China, opened the world's eyes to cheap but dependable
labor, and doomed European and American manufacturing.

It's like we woke up one morning and found not only manufacturing jobs were gone, but those jobs were not coming back. The whole economic well-being and future swept away by a tsunami of economic principles based on 'The end justifies the means'.

The world has changed. Keynesian, Friedmanesque, classical economics no longer work.
'The end justifies the means' economics, as practiced by the Japanese, South Koreans and Chinese is the new economic model.
The world learned from us for more than a century.
Now It's time we learn from the rest of the world. Nationalistic protectionism and a buy
British campaign.

Rant over.
That feels better.

[Arthur Little]

wheres nigel to spread the happiness

... that's what I was wondering, too ... Nigel ... ever the optimist!

[Englishman2010]

The world learned from us for more than a century.
Now It's time we learn from the rest of the world. Nationalistic protectionism and a buy
British campaign.

Rant over.
That feels better.

I agree Terpe, we need to do something different before it's too late. However, a Buy British campaign isn't going to work unless we can significantly reduce our manufacturing costs. The minimum wage ensures that workers receive a fair days pay for very basic and unskilled tasks, but it also means our products are not competitive. Why would anyone buy clothing, electronic goods or toys made in the UK if they are 5 X the price of a similar product made in China or Vietnam?
Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden have done far better than the UK and have a surplus balance of payments. Perhaps this is down to their reputation for quality and long lasting products? People will pay more for products that last, but sadly the BL effect in the 70's damaged the British reputation for quality products. We may still be world leaders in highly specialised fields such as defence manufacturing, top of the range audio equipment...etc, but these are very niche markets. We've also sold our crown jewels by allowing US, French, German, Japanese, Italian, Swiss and even Spanish companies take over well known British brands.
Britain has relied far too much on the Banking and Insurance sectors for the last 30 years, and even that is in the hands of the Spanish, Chinese and Arabs now
Enjoy what wealth we have left while you still can, 100 years from now we will be another basket case like Portugal or Greece

[Dedworth]

A very good thread. The mass sell off of British brands and companies happened whilst Labour were in power - so much for keeping British jobs for British workers. Interesting topical example is BAA owners of Heathrow Airport - Labour allowed it's sale in 2006 to a dodgy debt laden Spanish construction company.

Next Christmas the selection pack's of Cadburys chocolate you buy for the kids will be made in Kosovo - Kraft will have shut the UK factories by then. No prizes for knowing for who said this in February 2010 :-

"The one thing I want to say is this: we are determined that the levels of investment that take place in Cadbury's in the United Kingdom are maintained. And we are determined, of course, that at a time when people are worried about their jobs, that jobs in Cadbury can be secure".

Missing Man Ex PM Gordon "Bottler" Brown

[laurel]

Heres my tuppence worth.
I honestly believe that the reason we are in decline is that we have in general become a society that has exchanged right for wrong.......standards have dropped in most areas of life, particularly in the area of morals.

There is RIGHT and there is WRONG....but we are increasingly being told that there are no absolutes.
Things that would never have been tolerated just a relatively few short yrs ago , now become accepted.....this way of thinking has permeated every facet of our lives.

And so the knock on effect is self evident. Disrespect, selfishness etc etc.

A once revered nation is slowly being looked down upon........it wasnt luck that we once had an empire and gave the world many right values.....and its no surprise that after standards and values drop we will become despised. The writings on the wall