Should Fiancee's son Come to UK on a Fiancee Visa?

[Breakfast]

My fiancee has a 5 year old son, they are living in the Philippines. She is currently waiting to hear if her annulment hearing has been successful.

As she has already been
married, having a big wedding in the Philippines is not so important for her and she tells me that she would prefer to have a cheaper registry office wedding in the UK and no honeymoon!

My real question is, would it be better to bring her son with her on a fiancee visa, or wait until she gets her FLR and then apply for her son to come to UK?

[joebloggs]

it would probably make it a bit easier if they both came to the uk at the same time and maybe cheaper as someone would have to fly with the child at a later date if he didnt come with his mom or his mom would have to go and collect him from the phils..

is the father named on the childs birth cert, when was the last time the child saw his bio father ? and has the child always lived with his mother ?

[Breakfast]

Yes, the father is named on the birth certificate. After the separation, the boy the lived with his father for some time but has been with his mother since September 2009 and I have been financially supporting both since then; the father having no financial input and little contact since that date. The father is not contesting custody but, equally, the father is unaware of my existence.

The intention was that the boy would be brought to the UK by my fiancee's mother during her break from teaching in April/May. This looks highly unlikely now due to delays in getting annulment. That is why I am thinking it best for the boy to come to the UK on a Fiancee Visa. But I think the Visa authorities may refuse unless we can show the boy would suffer hardship for perhaps the 2-3 months it would take to bring him here after my fiancee arrives.

[joebloggs]

the father having no financial input and little contact since that date. The father is not contesting custody but, equally, the father is unaware of my existence.

The intention was that the boy would be brought to the UK by my fiancee's mother during her break from teaching in April/May.

the embassy might want to know where the father is and contact him, as he is named on the birth cert and has lived with his father til Sept 2009?, and still has some contact with his father..

and another potential problem your presuming her mother would be granted a visit visa

[Breakfast]

the embassy might want to know where the father is and contact him, as he is named on the birth cert and has lived with his father til Sept 2009?, and still has some contact with his father..

I think that father and son are not really interested in seeing each other. The father does not take active steps to contact his son and is not contesting sole custody by my fiancee. I realise that 'sole custody' is not the same as 'sole responsibility' and the visa authorities are really concerned with 'sole responsibility'.

But the boy's father has had no input into his child's life since September, 2009; he has made no payments to my fiancee to financially support him and is not involved whatsoever in decisions over his care and schooling. I do not even believe he has even made any offer to make payments or take an active part in decisions regarding his son. My fiancee has never sought any maintenance payments and she is not seeking any share of the property they once lived in or any other payment from him upon annulment.

The only moneys my fiancee receives are her own earnings and what I send her each month. The money I send certainly accounts for more than half her total income and I have kept a full record of these payments. I think this would be enough to show that I have taken on responsibility for my fiancee's son.

I guess the visa authorities may well want to contact the boy's father, but even while my fiancee is in the UK, he would be cared for by my fiancee's family, and the father would still probably not want any input into his life.

I do realise, however, that if the boy's father did know of my existence, he may change his mind and want his son back.

and another potential problem your presuming her mother would be granted a visit visa

If there were visa problems, my fiancee could always go to the Philippines to collect her child.

[sars_notd_virus]

Hello Breakfast welcome here!!

Although the father is not supporting the child ,he still got his name on his birth certificate,so even the custody is awarded to your fiance there would be a problem with the visa as far as sole responsibility is concern,...my suggestion is for your fiance to gather all the documents to prove she's the only responsible with the childs day to day basis like school certificates,parish letter on where they attend service,letter from GP's (pediatrician) ...and if the father of the child is really not concern with the child anymore as far as financial support is concern, a letter from the father(paternal consent) stating that he has no objection if the child settles ''for good'' under the care of his mother.

[sars_notd_virus]

If there were visa problems, my fiancee could always go to the Philippines to collect her child.

It would still be easier to file the application now, (fiance with dependant) as when your fiance leave her child for a long period of time ,a chance of sole responsiblity is harder to prove and obtain.

[Breakfast]

Hello Breakfast welcome here!!

Although the father is not supporting the child ,he still got his name on his birth certificate,so even the custody is awarded to your fiance there would be a problem with the visa as far as sole responsibility is concern,...my suggestion is for your fiance to gather all the documents to prove she's the only responsible with the childs day to day basis like school certificates,parish letter on where they attend service,letter from GP's (pediatrician) ...and if the father of the child is really not concern with the child anymore as far as financial support is concern, a letter from the father(paternal consent) stating that he has no objection if the child settles ''for good'' under the care of his mother.

That seems like very sound advice, thank you!

Should the latter of paternal consent be addressed to the mother or to the immigration authorities?

[sars_notd_virus]

your welcome!!

its a legal document,meaning it should be notarized,...any law office in the Philippines has a standard form for this and the ''contents may vary'' depends on the situation and what the client wants to be inside it, what is important is the father's signature and notarized meaning its legal...your fiance can hold this document to prove not just the immigration but any other establishment requiring this (ie..schools outside Philippines etc..) or for any future legalities.

goodluck!!

[Breakfast]

your welcome!!

its a legal document,meaning it should be notarized,...any law office in the Philippines has a standard form for this and the ''contents may vary'' depends on the situation and what the client wants to be inside it, what is important is the father's signature and notarized meaning its legal...your fiance can hold this document to prove not just the immigration but any other establishment requiring this (ie..schools outside Philippines etc..) or for any future legalities.

goodluck!!

You anticipated my next question! Many thanks! You clearly have some experience in this sort of matter! I will tell my fiancee straight away. Her husband has fully co-operated so far, so I am hopeful he will also do this.

My fiance is currently working 7 days a week, 10 hours per day, so has a live-in nanny to help look after her son. We have also considered that arrangement could continue when my fiancee comes to the UK. We continue to pay the rent on her flat and to pay the nanny. I think that would also go some way to establshing 'sole responsibility', when applying for her son to come to UK at the same time as the marriage visa application.

[sars_notd_virus]

You anticipated my next question! Many thanks! You clearly have some experience in this sort of matter! I will tell my fiancee straight away. Her husband has fully co-operated so far, so I am hopeful he will also do this.

My fiance is currently working 7 days a week, 10 hours per day, so has a live-in nanny to help look after her son. We have also considered that arrangement could continue when my fiancee comes to the UK. We continue to pay the rent on her flat and to pay the nanny. I think that would also go some way to establshing 'sole responsibility', when applying for her son to come to UK at the same time as the marriage visa application.

Lets just say that I've work with lawyers before,..and as a positive thinker and believing that theres always an ''antidote'' for everything!!
and the fact that I brought my daughter with me here in the UK will be a little help to u and ur fiance to obtain some of the documents I submitted to have a succesful visa with dependant..just take it easy,'sole responsibility' is easy to prove just let your fiance gather as much ''genuine'' documents as she can and everything will go on smoothly!!

[joebloggs]

sole responsibilty should not be a problem if the mother lives with the child, the only times there might be a problem is when the mother lives away from the child or when the father still has some contact with the child.

if the father will sign a letter stating he gives his permission that would help.

[Breakfast]

I have just spoken to my Fiancee and she says that after the annulment (expected by March 1st) she will have to apply to the Court in Philippines to get 'sole responsibility'.

She says a friend had to pay a Filipino lawyer 70K to get that through the courts within one month! Her lawyer has confirmed the procedure.

She will have to show the court that she can financially support her child in order to get 'sole responsibility'. That inevitably means telling the Court the financial support I have provided since September 2009 to her and her son.

If some sort of legally-binding agreement could be made privately, it would be much better. She would not have to tell her ex about me, it would be less costly and faster.

As she said, so eloquently, finding out about me may "raise the devil in him" and he would ask me for money just to co-operate!

So, my question is to those who have reached a legally binding agreement on sole responsibility (outside of a court) how long ago was that?

[joebloggs]

sole responsibility is to do with the british embassy not the phils courts
its the british embassy you have to convince not the phils gov, and any mother with a child under 7yrs old gets automatically custody of the child.

I've never heard anyone going to court for sole responsibility..

[Breakfast]

Yes joebloggs, I think my fiancee and I misunderstood what we were each saying! I think she will be applying for sole custody after the annulment hearing. Hopefully, that hearing can be completed during her fiancee visa application process, so she won't have to return to the Philippines for that case to be heard.

The intention would still be to bring the child into the UK after application for the marriage visa.

[joebloggs]

you need to convince the embassy your g/f has custody of the child and sole responsibility, your g/f could have both or just one of them..

women automatically get custody of under 7yrs old in almost all cases, but it is possible she could have custody but not sole responsibility, if she worked in another country or far away from the child, then the embassy could say who ever looks after the child day to day has sole responsibility. so sole responsibilty for some people could be difficult to prove.

and for example a father could have sole responsibilty in the eyes of the embassy but not custody ...

i think in your case your g/f shouldnt have a problem with sole responsibilty, the only problem if the bio father kicks up a fuss

[sars_notd_virus]

70K for a sole custody agreement paper?? thats a ripped off!!
like what ive said and to quote your post from #10 ' Her husband has fully co-operated so far, so I am hopeful he will also do this''and the fact that the child is living under the care of her mother a simple 'paternal consent' together with the annulment papers is powerful enough to prove 'sole custody and sole responsibility'
how young is the child? as what joebloggs said if the child is under 7years old the custody is mostly awarded to the mother,and if the child is above 7years old ,the child is free to choose where she/he wants to live.
who is the petitioner and the respondent in the annulment papers?? ..and what is the ground for annulment?
make sure your fiance also get an annotated copy from NSO once the finality of the annulment is out as this would take about 3weeks to process ,she will need to attach this together with all her documents for her visa.

[Breakfast]

70K for a sole custody agreement paper?? thats a ripped off!!

I think there was confusion between my fiancee and me. I think it is 70k for a sole custody hearing done rather quickly.

like what ive said and to quote your post from #10 ' Her husband has fully co-operated so far, so I am hopeful he will also do this''and the fact that the child is living under the care of her mother a simple 'paternal consent' together with the annulment papers is powerful enough to prove 'sole custody and sole responsibility'

Yes, that is very useful advice I have never read elsewhere.

how young is the child? as what joebloggs said if the child is under 7years old the custody is mostly awarded to the mother,and if the child is above 7years old ,the child is free to choose where she/he wants to live.

The child is five.

who is the petitioner and the respondent in the annulment papers?? ..and what is the ground for annulment?

My fiancee is the petitioner and it is on the basis of psychological incapacity by the respondent.

make sure your fiance also get an annotated copy from NSO once the finality of the annulment is out as this would take about 3weeks to process ,she will need to attach this together with all her documents for her visa.

I assume she would also have to get a CENOMAR?

[sars_notd_virus]

so far i dont see any problems,i asked about the ground for annulment as in some cases the respondent is the wife,which is harder to prove custody if the wife is psychologically incapacitated...but in your case your fiance is the petitioner and the child of 5years old is living with her so theres no need for another court hearing to prove sole custody,its proven anyway after the annulment papers is done...

yeah she will still need CENOMAR but dont worry if the previous marriage still reflects,the database will be change as soon as she sents a copy of her recent marriage certificate in the NSO.

[Breakfast]

so far i dont see any problems,i asked about the ground for annulment as in some cases the respondent is the wife,which is harder to prove custody if the wife is psychologically incapacitated...but in your case your fiance is the petitioner and the child of 5years old is living with her so theres no need for another court hearing to prove sole custody,its proven anyway after the annulment papers is done...

That is what I thought too, that the annulment process would grant sole custody to my fiancee. So, I am really confused now as my fiancee clearly believes that she has to go back to court once the annulment is over.

She says that she has to prove to the court that she can financially support the child. Is that generally the case in a sole custody hearing? Or maybe she is right and that there is a separate court process for 'sole responsibility' i.e. renouncing any claim for child maintenance from the child's father.

yeah she will still need CENOMAR but dont worry if the previous marriage still reflects,the database will be change as soon as she sents a copy of her recent marriage certificate in the NSO.

I assume you mean annulment certificate?

[sars_notd_virus]

I dont see any reason why your fiance needs to go to court for custody, Article 213 family code provides that ''no child under seven years of age shall be separated from the mother'' unless the court find compelling reasons to do so ,like if the mother is insane,unemployed,into drug addiction,neglecting her duties,immoral or in general word if the mother is ''unfit'' to perform her duties to her child.
has the childs father still supporting his child financially,emotionally or still involve with the childs day to day activities?
if your fiance got her annulment sorted out and shes 'fit' performing her duties to her child, living with her child of under 7 years old, and the childs father completely abandoned them,means no communications,financial support etc... there's is no need for another court hearing for sole custody...it will just alarm the father that something is goin on and will give your fiance more problems in the future.

[sars_notd_virus]

she will still need CENOMAR but dont worry if the previous marriage still reflects,the database will be change as soon as she sents a copy of her recent marriage certificate in the NSO.

I assume you mean annulment certificate?

No,what i mean is that when your fiance got her CENOMAR the marriage to her 'ex' still reflects ...and of course,when she gets the CENOMAR supporting documents like the annulment papers should be attached before the she gets married to you,...once she's married ,if she wants her marriage (WITH YOU) to be reflected on the NSO database she needs to send a copy of marriage certificate to them.

[Breakfast]

No,what i mean is that when your fiance got her CENOMAR the marriage to her 'ex' still reflects ...and of course,when she gets the CENOMAR supporting documents like the annulment papers should be attached before the she gets married to you,...once she's married ,if she wants her marriage (WITH YOU) to be reflected on the NSO database she needs to send a copy of marriage certificate to them.

Now I understand! So, the CENOMAR will show her marriage to her existing husband (even after annulment) but the annulment papers attached to the CENOMAR will clarify things!

At what point should she request a CENOMAR and how long does it take to get a CENOMAR?: It will probably be around 1st March that she hears from the Court about whether an annulment has been granted and a few weeks after that when she gets the annulment papers.

Can she apply fo CENOMAR now, wait until she hears that annulment has been granted, or wait until she gets the annulment papers?

Our marriage will be in the UK. Can that be added to the NSO database?

At least not having to wait for annulment to be recorded on the NSO data base, should save a few weeks! I had assumed she would have to send annulment papers to the NSO and wait before they were entered onto the NSO database before she could get a CENOMAR.

[sars_notd_virus]

Now I understand! So, the CENOMAR will show her marriage to her existing husband (even after annulment) but the annulment papers attached to the CENOMAR will clarify things!

yes,that's correct

At what point should she request a CENOMAR and: It will probably be around 1st March that she hears from the Court about whether an annulment has been granted and a few weeks after that when she gets the annulment papers.

Can she apply fo CENOMAR now, wait until she hears that annulment has been granted, or wait until she gets the annulment papers?

wait till the annulment is done.

how long does it take to get a CENOMAR?
Our marriage will be in the UK. Can that be added to the NSO database?

At least not having to wait for annulment to be recorded on the NSO data base, should save a few weeks! I had assumed she would have to send annulment papers to the NSO and wait before they were entered onto the NSO database before she could get a CENOMAR.

your fiance can ask her local registrar's office about the details.