Barbaric and disgusting it may be ... but it seemed to work in Roman times - and I'll betOriginally Posted by keithAngel
Deadworth apears to favour the spectacle of the Roman arena at half time in your local sports stadium how disgusting is that?it would be an effective deterrent NOW!
We have discussed this several times my own view is that its clearly no deterent just revenge and we as a nation decided not to have that done anymore on our behalf there are grave dougbts about the last guy hung in England hanratty
Once your dead an apology for a mistake is not much good
Deadworth apears to favour the spectacle of the Roman arena at half time in your local sports stadium how disgusting is that?Facts wrong again Hanratty wasn't the last man to be hung, still you're on par with my son's excuse for a history teacher - she wrote that it was Bentley
i agree with you on the hanratty case but forensics & other investigations have come on leaps & bounds since the hanratty caseWe have discussed this several times my own view is that its clearly no deterent just revenge and we as a nation decided not to have that done anymore on our behalf there are grave dougbts about the last guy hung in England hanratty
Once your dead an apology for a mistake is not much good
Deadworth apears to favour the spectacle of the Roman arena at half time in your local sports stadium how disgusting is that?
I'm surprised he's not mentioned a handwringing apology for slavery yet - ooops sorry I'm on the wrong thread atrocities of the British Empire and Gunboats is on the The Great Offices of State - The Home Officei agree with you on the hanratty case but forensics & other investigations have come on leaps & bounds since the hanratty case
Deterrents:-
When the death penalty was suspended in 1965 the murder rate in UK was around 50 a year, now it is 600 ( and that is excluding manslaughter and serious GBH convictions).,
I would argue that sentences can be deterrents but the problem is that sentences are not deterrents. If they were they would deter and crime would be much lower. Reluctantly I believe that punishments should be increased until the deterrent effect become clear.
In any argument about crime I believe the overwhelming concern should be the protection of the innocent victim not the well-being of the criminal.
Not enough supply Arthur we would have to import executies
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My apologiesProbably you have elected the better course in not bothering to attempt open debate Bently had the mental age of 10 as well
Just for your information
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News report March 2011.
The murder conviction of James Hanratty, who was hanged 40 years ago protesting his innocence, was today upheld by the Court of Appeal which ruled that DNA evidence established his guilt "beyond doubt".
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1G19UvyDe
Hanratty's guilt has since been established if I'm not mistaken. But irrespective of whether this is the case or not ... DNA profiling has advanced to the extent where it is more or less guaranteed to prevent miscarriages of justice.Aha
do you think they would still hang bentley in todays britain
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
A number of people taking part in the commission of a crime are equally guilty of each others actions. So in principle Yes.do you think they would still hang bentley in todays britain
However, since then things have changed. In the Craig and Bentley case the mental age of Bentley, would now probably make it unlikely (rightly so in my opinion) that he would hang.
NOdo you think they would still hang bentley in todays britain... not even if Capital Punishment WERE still in existence ... and they shouldn't have done so at the time either!
Bentley (19) was diagnosed with epilepsy following a childhood accident. But ... more than that ... various psychological tests revealed him as being of low intelligence - if not entirely mentally defective - meaning that the words he's alleged to've shouted to his 16-year-old accomplice urging him to "let 'im [the police officer] have it, Chris!" - are open to misinterpretation nearly six decades later. Yet it was on these 5 simple words that the whole trial seemed to hinge. And it was those words that - after only two days - led the jury to convict Bentley.
Now whether he [Bentley] actually uttered the words ... resulting in his co-accused pulling the trigger of the sawn-off shotgun that killed PC Miles is open to conjecture. As is the message he'd been trying to convey to his youthful companion when the latter fired the fatal shot.Could he, for example - in the heat of momentary panic - have been exhorting Christopher Craig to surrender
his weapon to the approaching constable? We shall never know for sure!
But one thing IS certain ... and that is it was THIS statement that formed the basis for the pair's conviction and Bentley's subsequent execution.
Ten years later, in 1963, Craig was released from prison ... and is alive to this day. He claims that scarcely a day passes that he doesn't deeply regret what happened to his friend.
Sadly,Bentley's sister, Iris - who'd campaigned long and hard for her brother Derek to be given a posthumous pardon - didn't live to see it finally being granted in 1998.
As Keith Angel [rightly] points out; "What use is an apology to someone who's dead?" On the other hand, I would continue to maintain that thanks to the emergence of DNA Profiling ... and the tremendous breakthroughs in its indispensible thoroughness in the detection and solving of all sorts of crime ... the chances of a person being wrongly convicted are relatively slim. Unfortunately for Derek Bentley, it arrived half a century too late to save his neck!
Just because a person is found not guilty or is acquitted on appeal, does not PROVE they are innocent.
If a jury cannot be satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt they must acquit. As I said that does not prove they are innocent nor that they should not have been charged. Often witnesses, for a variety of reasons, change their evidence or the jury just do not believe them. OR maybe an error arises in the prosecution case, in which case the jury must give the accused the benefit of any doubt.
Also be aware that many writers get best-sellers based on a distortion of the facts of a case. Ludovic Kennedy was one such author.
And finally, Timothy Evans admitted killing his baby so whether of not his conviction for killdeer his wife was or was not correct he would have been hanged if he had been acquitted of his wife's murder.
To take another "classic"example the Guidford 4 were all found guilty of Murder in 1975 and would have been hung if the death penalty had existed this apology would have been cold comfort then
On 9 February 2005, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Tony Blair issued an apology to the families of the eleven people imprisoned for the bombings in Guildford and Woolwich, and those related to them who were still alive, by saying, in part: "I am very sorry that they were subject to such an ordeal and injustice... they deserve to be completely and publicly exonerated."[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildfo..._Maguire_Seven
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This is a quote:-
Bentley's conviction was overturned by the Court of Appeal in July last year on the basis that the summing up and direction to the jury of the trial judge Lord Chief Justice Lord Goddard was flawed on several counts, meaning the teenager did not receive a fair trial.
This was part of the explanation why he/his family were not entitled to compensation.
The reality of this is that had the judge not made errors in the summing up, Bentley may still have been found guilty. (I have personal knowledge of a similar case where a error was made by the judge in summing up which resulted in the person being released. Unfortunately he killed another person within 24 hours)
The same applies in other similar cases.
If something is found, maybe years later, which had it been known at the time should have been mentioned, it can lead to a successful appeal, but in no way in such a case does it mean they were proved to be innocent, only that they must be given the benefit of any doubt.
Until fairly recently, a person who was acquitted could not be re-tried, even in extreme cases where people have subsequently written articles or a book, explaining how they committed the crime.
This means that those who would like to show innocent people were convicted cannot use the Bentley, the Guildford, Woolwich or any other similar case, to support their argument .
I am convinced that the number of people, who may have been convicted of murder incorrectly is probably extremely small (although even one is too many) and even in those cases where there was a wrong finding, that the accused were as least to some extent responsible for the miscarriage of justice, for example, by lying their heads off when question.
you mean they sholud blame themselfs, as your a former police officer will you ever admit to there being bent officers who stitched the accused up to further their career
i have learnt to do what my wife says!
I have never denied dishonest police have been arrested and, unfortunately, will continue to be arrested. Mostly they have taken money to help people get off, not to convict innocent people for murder (there may have been such cases, but I can't think of any). They have always been arrested, investigated and prosecuted by police officers (surprisingly, not by people who love to take every opportunity to throw mud at the police).you mean they sholud blame themselfs, as your a former police officer will you ever admit to there being bent officers who stitched the accused up to further their career
Quote: you mean they should blame themselves.
In the cases where they have muddied the waters they are to blame to some extent. As would be those, who falsely confess or are falsely accused by others but whom the police were able to prove should not be charged.
In probably every major investigation people falsely confess and or are falsely accused by others. They of course do not make headlines, thus most people are not aware of it.
Hmm ... the problem with this topic seems to be that many of the people reading/responding [to] it on here, aren't of a generation OLD enough to REMEMBER
Or maybe, dare I say, not old enough to see the wheat from the chaff in the 'do gooders' distorted argumentsHmm ... the problem with this topic seems to be that many of the people reading/responding [to] it on here, aren't of a generation OLD enough to REMEMBER
I notice no one has commented on the guilford 4
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I don't have any personal knowledge of the Guildford 4, however, I did just find that the success of their appeal appears to have been the result of a police officer discovering what appeared to be a falsification of notes.I notice no one has commented on the guilford 4
Quote:_ In 1989, a detective looking at the case found typed notes from Patrick Armstrong's police interviews, which had been heavily edited. Deletions and additions had been made, and the notes had been rearranged. These notes, and their amendments, were consistent with hand-written and typed notes presented at the trial, which suggested that the hand-written notes were made after the interviews had been conducted. This implied that the police had manipulated the notes to fit with the case they wanted to present.
I know this will sound revolutionary, but I believe suspects should not be cautioned that they need not say anything but the opposite i.e that they are OBLIGED to answer questions and that not doing so will he held against them. In my view the basic rule should be to ensure justice, not some silly game, designed and maintained so that the legal profession can earn huge fees at the expense of 'justice' and the public purse.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...g-rivalry.html
this story is sickening... A young 16 yr old girl waiting for a pizza in North London gunned down with a sub machine gun fired by another youth at a gang rival.... for christs sake sub machine guns in the hands of 16 year olds on the streets of our Capital!!!! I do not care about the age of the shooter. just leave him tied to a chair in a room with the girls mother for five minutes and see if she feels like being forgiving
Live your life for a reason and don't worry be happy
if you don't know where you are going then any road will do!!
from what ive read with the states before and after the abolition of capital punishment, it's shown tobe a worthwhile deterrent with the odd mistake here and there.
John thanks for being the only one to address my point It wouldnt help of course to change the law as you sugest if Police Officers are under pressure to achieve a conviction and use inapropriate or criminal methods to arrive at that end. Nor would there release have been possible had they been hung
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I will reiterate what Dedworth and I have said, until you' ve been on the receiving end of the scum in question, your opinions somewhat biassed to say the least.
Bornabirth You wanted to know who wld do the deed on either opening the trap door or pulling the trigger, if it was your loved one affected, I bet you wld be first in the queue.
Direct experience of violence to your family may well change your views but who here is saying that?
If not my premise still holds as by the same token neither would anyone here want a relative to be hung for a crime they didnt commit
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Uniquivocle Life for Premeditated murder with no mitigating circumstance should mean just that clear enough
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Keith You personally will always find mitigating circumstances, it's in your nature Keith
life often isnt black or white Gwap regardless of how much we might want it to be
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