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Thread: Official Information - Spouses/Fiancee's

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    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Definitions and terms and conditions of those who seek to enter United Kingdom as a spouse/fiancee of a Someone settled in the UK

    13.1 - Definitions
    A fiancé(e) in this context is a person who
    wishes to enter the UK with a view to marriage to a person who is either
    already present and settled in the United Kingdom;
    or

    will be admitted for settlement in the UK when arriving there, and intends permanent settlement in the United Kingdom.
    A spouse is a person who qualifies to live permanently in the United Kingdom because he/she is married to a person who is either present and settled in the UK or will be admitted for settlement in the UK when arriving there.

    13.2 - Immigration conditions upon entry to the United Kingdom
    A person holding an entry clearance as a fiancé(e) will initially be admitted to the United Kingdom for 6 months, with a prohibition on employment until after marriage. Once the marriage has taken place and after satisfactory completion of a probationary period (normally 24 months) set by the Home Office, indefinite leave to remain may be granted.

    A person holding an entry clearance as a spouse will normally be admitted to the United Kingdom for an initial period of 24 months. After satisfactory completion of this period, indefinite leave to remain may be granted. However, where an applicant has been married to a UK citizen and both have been living abroad for more than 4 years, Indefinite Leave to Enter may be granted.
    Definition of sponsor in fiancé(e)/spouse/unmarried partner applications
    In a fiancé(e) application, the term ‘sponsor’ refers to the person whom the applicant is intending to marry.

    In an application as a spouse, the sponsor is the person to whom the applicant is married. In applications from unmarried partners, the sponsor is the person with whom the applicant intends to live.

    Fiancé(e)s and how they qualify (Rules paragraphs 290 -295)
    For an applicant to qualify for admission as a fiancé(e), you must be satisfied that:
    the sponsor is present and settled in the United Kingdom, or is to be admitted for settlement at the same time as the applicant arrives in the UK;
    the sponsor and the applicant are aged 18 or over;
    each of the parties intends to live permanently with the other as his or her spouse after the marriage;
    the parties to the proposed marriage have met;
    adequate maintenance and accommodation without recourse to public funds will be available for the applicant until the date of the marriage;
    after the marriage there will be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively;
    after the marriage the parties will be able to maintain themselves and their dependants adequately without recourse to public funds.
    You should also be satisfied that there is no impediment to the proposed marriage (see section 13.9 below for instructions).

    Guidance on how to assess the above qualifications is given in the remainder of this chapter except for that on maintenance and accommodation which is given in Chapter 9.

    Children of fiancé(e)s may also qualify for admission. This is dealt with in Chapter 14.

    13.5 - Spouses and how they qualify (Rules paragraphs 277 - 289)
    For an applicant to qualify for admission as a spouse, you must be satisfied that:
    the sponsor is present and settled in the United Kingdom, or is to be admitted for settlement at the same time as the applicant arrives in the UK;
    the sponsor is aged 18 or over and the applicant 16 or over;
    the parties to the marriage have met;
    the marriage is subsisting and each of the parties intend to live permanently with the other as his/her spouse;
    there will be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively;
    the parties will be able to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds.
    Guidance on how to assess the above qualifications is given in the remainder of this chapter except for that on maintenance and accommodation which is given in
    Chapter 9 of the handbook.

    13.9 - Evidence of freedom to marry and impediments to marriage in the UK
    In addition to the requirements of the Rules, you must be satisfied that both parties will be able to contract a valid marriage under United Kingdom law.

    The marriage provisions are as follows:

    A valid marriage cannot be contracted in the United Kingdom if:
    one of the parties to the intended marriage is under the age of 16; or
    one of the parties is aged 16 or 17 but does not have parental consent (this does not apply in Scotland); or
    one of the parties is not free to marry, i.e. is still legally married to someone else (but see below).
    You should warn anyone going to the United Kingdom for marriage who has previously been married, or is aged 16 or 17, that he/she may be required to provide the registrar with evidence of freedom to marry before the Registrar can accept a notice of marriage. Where you have doubts about an applicant’s freedom to marry, you should ask to see this evidence before issuing an entry clearance. The kind of evidence you will need to see is as follows:
    Widowed person: death certificate of the late spouse.
    Divorced person: evidence of divorce, e.g.. divorce certificate
    Minors (aged 16 or 17): formal consents are required as follows:

    -
    Normally - both parents (in Scotland no parental consent is necessary; in Northern Ireland parental consent is necessary and the parents’ signatures must be certified by a Commissioner for Oaths or some other authority as specified in the Northern Ireland marriage laws);



    -
    parents divorced or separated - the parent having legal custody, or both parents if they share custody;



    -
    desertion - the parent who has been deserted;



    -
    parents deprived of custody - the person having legal custody;



    -
    one parent deceased - the surviving parent (if the deceased parent had appointed a guardian, the surviving parent and guardian if acting jointly, or either if the parent or guardian is the sole guardian);



    -
    both parents deceased - guardians or guardian appointed by the deceased parents or by the courts;



    -
    applicant illegitimate - the mother (or if she has legally been deprived of custody, the person given custody; or if she is deceased, the appointed guardian).


    Single persons of full age: the Registrar normally accepts the parties’ declaration that they are free to marry. ECOs should therefore accept a similar verbal statement by an applicant, together with any supporting correspondence from the person he or she is going to marry, unless there are strong grounds to believe that one of the parties is still married or has been married previously and is concealing this fact. In such cases you should make whatever enquiries as seem appropriate.
    Evidence of marriage arrangements
    Of itself, a booking at a Registry Office or church is not proof that a marriage will take place.

    The law relating to marriage in England and Wales does not allow for any arrangements to be made with a Registrar until the foreign national has arrived in the UK.

    The Immigration Rules state that the parties should be free to marry. However, if the only reason for a couple not being free to marry is that one of them is awaiting a divorce, entry clearance should not be refused for this reason alone (though ECOs would normally expect to see some evidence that divorce proceedings are well under way). The reasoning behind this is that the divorce may well come through within the six months leave to enter period, thereby enabling the couple to marry. The applicant may then apply for leave to remain as a spouse. Should one of the partners still be waiting for a divorce to come through at the end of the six-month period, they may apply to the Home Office for an extension of stay.

    13.10 - Validity of marriages
    In an application for entry clearance from a spouse, you must be satisfied that the parties are validly married to each other.

    The recognition of any marriage which has taken place overseas is governed by the following:
    Is the type of marriage one recognised in the country in which it took place?
    Was the actual marriage properly executed so as to satisfy the requirements of the law of the country in which it took place?
    Was there anything in the law of either party's country of domicile that restricted his freedom to enter the marriage?
    If the answers to the above questions are respectively "yes", "yes" and "no" then the marriage will be treated as a marriage for the purpose of the "spouse" paragraphs of the Rules, whether or not it is polygamous (but see separate guidance on dealing with applications from polygamous partners).

    As there is no legal provision for same sex marriage in the UK, this only applies to a marriage between two persons who are of the opposite sex to one another. Any same-sex marriage (or civil union or any other registered same-sex relationship) valid in another state will not be treated as a marriage for this purpose and any application for leave based on such a relationship must be dealt with under the "unmarried partners" paragraphs of the Rules.

    There is no requirement under EC law to recognise the same-sex partners or same-sex spouses of EEA nationals as family members. However, European Community law states that Member States should not discriminate between the same-sex partners of its own nationals and the same-sex partners of EEA nationals. We therefore allow the same-sex partners of EEA nationals to enter the UK as partners (as opposed to family members under the EEA regulations) if they meet the requirements of the unmarried partners" paragraphs of the Immigration Rules.

    As the application for entry clearance will normally be made in the country in which the marriage took place, ECOs will be well placed to determine whether a particular marriage is valid under local law.

    Marriage by proxy, by telephone or where no ceremony was required
    The formal validity of a marriage should be determined exclusively according to the laws of the countries in which both parties are physically present when the marriage takes place. Therefore a telephone marriage celebrated whilst one of the parties is in the UK will not be valid, because telephone marriages are not valid in this country. However, in cases where the UK-based sponsor was overseas when the telephone marriage took place and the laws of both countries recognise such marriages, we cannot deny that the marriage is valid. Enquiries about the marriage laws of other countries may be referred to INPD, Home Office.

    Where a marriage has been celebrated will be a question of fact in each case. Where ECOs have doubts, the onus is on the applicant to show that it was celebrated in a country which recognises such marriages. In cultures which regard marriage as consisting of an offer made by a man and accepted by a woman, then the (telephonic) marriage should be considered as having taken place in the country in which the proposal has been accepted i.e. where the wife is. Where the wife is resident in the UK and the offer made from overseas, then the marriage should be considered as having been celebrated in the UK and consequently it will not be valid in UK law. Proxy marriages should be considered as having been celebrated in the country in which the ceremony took place.

    If no ceremony is required under the laws of a particular country and a marriage can be concluded by an exchange of promises, it may be difficult to determine the country in which the marriage has been celebrated and under which law it should be considered. You may need to defer a decision on the issue of an entry clearance and request advice from INPD in the Home Office.

    The Rules requirement that both parties must have met may have a bearing on proxy or telephone marriages.

    Evidence of marriage
    In most cases a marriage certificate will provide satisfactory evidence that a marriage has taken place.
    An original certificate or properly certified copy should always be obtained unless there are very exceptional reasons why one cannot be produced. ECOs should beware of photocopies of marriage certificates; they may look genuine but could contain altered details.

    In countries where official registration of marriage is not compulsory (and official marriage certificates are not available) you should normally interview husband and wife separately about the circumstances of their marriage so that your decision can be made on the balance of probabilities.

    13.11 - Requirement to have met
    If the couple have not met by the time the ECO takes the decision on the application (i.e. if they have either not seen each other at all or not met in the sense of ‘to have made the acquaintance of’) all aspects of the application should still be considered (intention to live together, maintenance and accommodation etc) before any refusal notice is issued as such a notice must contain all the grounds for refusal. Obviously, there will be cases where ‘not having met’ is the sole ground for refusal. Some Tribunal decisions quoted below help to define the meaning of "to have met".
    Action after an initial refusal
    If, after the refusal of an entry clearance on the basis of the parties not having met, the couple can satisfy the ECO that a meeting in the sense of ‘making the acquaintance of’ has since taken place, the ECO must review the original decision and consider whether refusal is still appropriate.

    This review can take place after an appeal has been lodged and in the majority of cases, assessing whether or not this "new evidence" meets the requirements of the Rules (see below) should be straightforward. If the ECO then considers that there is no impediment to issue of entry clearance, the applicant should be invited to withdraw any appeal that may have been lodged (although an appellant has the right to proceed with an appeal, whatever action is being taken by an ECO) and entry clearance may be issued.

    This review need not be on the basis of a fresh application and fee, so long as any appeal has not been determined. Where an appeal has been determined then a fresh application and fee will be appropriate.

    If, despite having satisfied the criteria of having met, the application still falls to be refused on other grounds, you should maintain the decision and inform applicant and sponsor. A suitable amendment to the original wording of the refusal should be made. If an explanatory statement has already been despatched then a short addendum should be forwarded to the Appeals Processing Centre for onward transmission.

    Tribunal decisions
    There have been a number of Tribunal determinations on how to interpret the phrase "to have met".

    The following determinations are intended for guidance only and ECOs should be wary of routinely referring to Tribunal precedents when compiling explanatory statements. With case law constantly evolving there is a danger that precedent may have been overtaken by the time the ECO quotes it in support of a decision.

    In Balvinder Singh, The Tribunal equated ‘to have met’ with ‘to have made the acquaintance of’. They took the view that it would be difficult to argue convincingly that two infants lying in cots side by side could satisfy the requirement ‘to have met’ but that it would not be so difficult to argue that children of 11 or 12 could be acquaintances of each other. In each case, whether the parties have made the acquaintance of each other will be a question of fact. There is no necessity for any meeting to have taken place in the context of the proposed marriage. In Rewal Raj, a differently constituted Tribunal took the same view of ‘to have met’ i.e. that it implies a requirement ‘to have made the acquaintance of'. In Abdulmajid Esmail Jaffer, The Tribunal endorsed the previous views and went on to say that ‘to have met’ meant something more than a mutual sighting. They also felt that a mere coming face to face followed by telephone or written contact would be insufficient to satisfy the rule, as would a family background together with such a face to face meeting. In their view the essential test of whether the rule had been satisfied was whether the couple had had a face to face meeting which in itself had resulted in the making of mutual acquaintance.

    Internet relationships
    It would not be sufficient for a relationship developed over the Internet to meet the requirement of the Rules unless the relationship included a personal face-to-face meeting between the couple concerned.
    13.12 - Intention to live together; residence after arrival in the UK
    Intention to live permanently with the other means an intention to live together, evidenced by a clear commitment from both parties that they will live together permanently in the UK immediately following the outcome of the application in question or as soon as circumstances permit thereafter.

    In assessing this part of the Rules it will be useful, if possible, to have the views of both parties tested by the ECO. You should try to assess what the basic object of the marriage is (or will be). Where both partners are clearly committed to stay together irrespective of whether they live in the UK or not, the intention to live together will be shown.
    However if it is clear that the sponsor will not leave the UK to live with the applicant elsewhere should the application for entry clearance be refused, you will need to examine the reasons for this and how this bears on the relationship between the parties.
    In a case considered in the High Court in November 1996 Keen J held that "The concept of intention is no doubt a complex one, but it appears to me that one can indeed have a genuine intention, notwithstanding that the carrying out of that intention is dependent on, or could be frustrated by, some extraneous event." He went on to conclude that the requirement of the Rules relating to the intention of the parties to the marriage could be met where the British citizen (or legally resident foreign national) spouse insisted on remaining in the United Kingdom. In other words, a conditional intention to live together could be sufficient to meet the requirements of sub-paragraph (iv).

    Residence after arrival in the United Kingdom
    A couple should have discussed and come to an understanding about where they are going to live, if only in the short term. If they say that the subject has not been discussed, you should try to find out whythis is so.

    The timing and nature of a decision regarding residence, who took the initiative and the way in which the decision was reached may be important factors in assessing whether or not the couple intend to live together permanently.

    If the marriage is/was conditional upon the applicant securing admission to the United Kingdom, you should establish who made the condition and why. You should also ask whether, if the application for entry clearance is unsuccessful, the sponsor will live with the applicant in his/her present country of residence (or elsewhere).
    13.13 - Unmarried partners and how they qualify (Rules paragraph 295A)
    The Rules allow for persons who are unmarried to join a partner who is settled there provided certain conditions are met. The Rules also apply to partners of sponsors in the UK who have limited leave to enter or remain in the following categories:

    Work Permit holders, overseas media representatives, sole representatives, private servants in diplomatic households, overseas government employees, Ministers of Religion, airport based operational ground staff, UK Ancestry (paras 128-193), businessmen, self-employed, investors, writers, composers, artists (paras 200-239), retired persons of independent means (paras 263-270) and EEA nationals.

    The requirements are as follows:
    the applicant is the unmarried partner (i.e. not married to the sponsor) of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement; and,
    any previous marriage (or similar relationship) by either partner has permanently broken down; and,
    there will be adequate accomodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accomodation which they own or occupy exclusively; and,
    the parties have been living together in a relationship akin to marriage which has subsisted for 2 years or more; and,
    the parties will be able to maintain themselves and any dependants adquately without recourse to public funds; and,
    the parties intend to live together permanently.
    Posts should be conscious that some individuals might be reticent about applying under this section of the Rules. These and other settlement applications should be handled sensitively and with discretion.

    However, if Posts receive entry clearance applications in respect of common-law relationships where there are children and/or the relationship may be less than 2 year’s duration, such applications may be referred to NCC5 for consideration outside the Rules where compelling compassionate circumstances exist. Full supporting details should accompany such referrals.

    The following gives detail on the terminology and required levels of documentation for the guidance of ECOs considering applications.

    Previous marriage or similar relationship has permanently broken down
    Each of the parties to the unmarried partnership is required to provide evidence regarding any previous marital or other relationship akin to marriage they have had. They should be asked to specify how long ago the previous relationship was terminated, either by divorce or by separation.

    The parties having been living together in a relationship akin to marriage which has subsisted for two years or more
    "Living together", should be applied fairly tightly, in that we would expect a couple to show evidence of cohabitation in the preceding 2 year period. Periods apart would be acceptable for good reasons, such as work commitments, or looking after a relative which takes one partner away for up to 6 months where it was not possible for the other partner to accompany and it can be seen that the relationship continued throughout that period by visits, letters etc. Where a couple have been living together for the preceding 2-year period but have been dividing their time between countries and may, for example, have used the "visitor" category, then this will be sufficient to meet the requirement.

    "Akin to marriage", is a relationship that is similar in its nature to a marriage which would include both common law and same sex relationships.

    In order to demonstrate a 2-year relationship evidence of cohabitation will be needed. In order to show a relationship akin to marriage, ECOs should look for evidence of a committed relationship. The following types of evidence would be useful in this respect:
    joint commitments, (such as joint bank accounts, investments, rent agreements, mortgage, death benefit etc);
    if there are children of the relationship, a record of their birth entry
    correspondence which links them to the same address;
    any official records of their address (e.g. Doctors records, DSS record, national insurance record etc);
    any other evidence that adequately demonstrates their commitment to each other
    It will not be necessary to provide all of the above: ECOs are looking for satisfactory evidence of relationship.

    Appeals
    Unmarried partner settlement refusals attract the right of appeal. (Third country common-law spouses of EEA nationals have no right of appeal under the 2000 EEA Regulations).

    Unmarried partners of UK accredited diplomats
    See Chapter 5.

    13.14 - Entry clearance endorsements
    Entry clearances issued to a fiancé(e) should be endorsed ‘D: MARRIAGE’. LTE 6 MONTHS CODE 3

    Entry clearances issued to a spouse should be endorsed ‘D: HUSBAND’ or ‘WIFE’ (as appropriate). The full name and date of birth of the UK sponsor should be written underneath the vignette or on an adjacent page. LTE 24 MONTHS CODE 1.

    Entry clearances issued to a partner should be endorsed: ‘D, ACCOMPANYING/TO JOIN PARTNER [ADD INITIAL AND SURNAME ONLY OF PARTNER].’ LTE 2 YEARS CODE 1.

    Endorsements should not be prefixed ‘SETTLEMENT’


    13.15 - Interviewing
    If the sponsor accompanies the applicant, they should always be interviewed separately, (although see below)

    Treating the applicant fairly
    You should be careful and courteous while interviewing an applicant or sponsor.

    Some "dos" and "don’ts" for conducting balanced interviews:


  2. #2
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    The above texts, I extracted today from the UK Visas, handbook issued to Entry Clearance Officers, these are effectively the guidelines that ECO's should work to when seeking to issue a visa, and to either issue or refuse a visa, as you can all see, they dont seem to be following the rules, look at what I found !!!


    DO

    Express questions directly and clearly in terms which the applicant will understand. Take extra care when an interpreter is being used.

    Ensure that the applicant is fully aware of those topics which are relevant to the application and will be taken into account in considering the application.

    Put to both parties any contradictory statements between the applicant and sponsor or adverse inferences from an applicant or sponsor’s statements and invite their comments.
    AVOID

    Steering the applicant to a particular answer.

    Using hypothetical situations in questioning.
    DON’T EVER

    Question either party about their views on starting a family or about their sex life

    Chronology of events in the relationship
    In settlement interviews, you will find it useful to ascertain the sequence of events in the relationship of the couple. You should find out when the couple first met; if there was an intervening period before the relationship became properly established, how long this was; when was marriage (or engagement) first discussed; and when was the decision to live in the United Kingdom made.

    This information provides an important factual base for assessing potential marriages of convenience and the intention to live together. By asking these questions of the applicant and sponsor individually, you will often be able to gauge the attitudes of both parties to their relationship.

    Line of questioning
    You will need to question the applicant (and if possible the sponsor) on a number of matters such as:
    the applicant’s circumstances and prospects in his or her own country;
    whether the applicant has previously attempted to settle overseas;
    whether the applicant has any relatives in the United Kingdom;
    the background to the decision to marry e.g. discussion between applicant and sponsor or, if appropriate, their respective families; what discussions took place (and between whom) as to future place of residence;
    the sponsor’s family circumstances and any previous connection between the families;
    the relevance of the sponsor’s residence in the United Kingdom to the marriage.


    The above list is not exhaustive but it should give ECOs some idea of the factors which may need to be considered. Obviously it will not be appropriate to question all applicants on all of these factors. Common sense should dictate in each case whether a particular subject is appropriate. The circumstances of an individual applicant may suggest factors which are not listed but which should be considered.

    Recording the interview
    It is essential that the actual questions and answers leading up to and including the critical points of an interview are accurately recorded and that the report includes interview notes. These should be typed if possible. You should bear in mind that accuracy is paramount. The report of the interview may be challenged in a public hearing in connection with an appeal against a refusal decision.

    Considering the evidence
    What applicants say about their reasons for seeking entry clearance must be of the first importance, although the weight to be given to the various pieces of evidence in any particular case is for an ECO to decide. In some circumstances the views of not only the sponsor but any other parties who may have been instrumental in bringing the applicant and sponsor together may be relevant. It is important that whilst maintaining the paramountcy of the applicant’s intentions, the intentions and evidence of other relevant persons are considered and given their due weight. You are not restricted to considering only such evidence as the applicant chooses to offer. You may make enquiries of your own to balance the evidence which an applicant has put forward.

    In considering the evidence, it may be appropriate for you to defer the application to enable the sponsor to be interviewed by the Immigration Service in the United Kingdom. However, this should only be done in exceptional cases as such enquiries may take a considerable time to complete. ECOs should, where possible, try to reach a decision on the available evidence.

    If there is a conflict of evidence between the applicant and the sponsor, and it appears that on the applicant’s side there is no intention of living permanently with the sponsor, the applicant will have failed to discharge the onus of proof and the application should be refused. Where such a conflict of evidence does arise it is important, in the interests of natural justice, that any discrepancies are put to the applicant and/or sponsor, if appropriate, and the applicant should be asked to account for such discrepancies as may exist.

    Reaching the final decision
    The burden of proof is on the applicant to satisfy the ECO that he or she meets the requirements of the Rules. In discharging that proof the applicant need only do so "on a balance of probabilities". You should weigh up the evidence before you as a whole, allowing for points both in favour of an applicant as well as any that may go against him. These applications have a right of appeal against the ECO’s decision and an explanatory statement will have to justify a decision to refuse.




    13.16 - Sponsor's Attendance at visa interviews
    A consistent approach is needed to ensure that all Posts offer the same advice to sponsors who ask to attend visa interviews. Current policy is that Posts have discretion on whether or not to admit sponsors to interviews. There is no blanket ban on sponsors attending. Equally they have no automatic right to attend. It is preferable to conduct the interview with the applicant alone, seeing the sponsor separately if necessary. ECOs should, therefore, draw on the following when sponsors make such requests:


    If a sponsor wants to speak to an ECO it can help to do this seperately from the interview with the applicant. This jelps ECO's to verify that the information presented by both is consistent;

    in considering an application, ECO's must concentrate on the circumstances and intentions of the applicant. Information from (and support of) a sponsor can be very helpful, e.g. when assessing maintenance/accommodation. It should be given full weight, but will rarely impact on the intentions of the applicant;

    Posts may encounter reluctant applicants (e.g. spouses, fiancé(e)s, domestic servants). In order not to compormise the confidentiality and safety of such applicants, ECO's usually ask to see them on their own. Maintaining a standard procedure for all applicants ensures an even handed approach and avoids drawing attention to the cases where reluctance i believed to be a factor.
    Local visa information handouts should include the following advice:

    sponsors are not required to attend visa interviews overseas. In most overseas Posts it is standard practice for visa applicants to be interviewed alone, without the presence of sponsors, representatives etc.;

    if they choose to accompany the applicant to the Visa Section, sponsors might not be interviewed unless the Visa Officer decides that certain points need clarification;

    at the discretion of the ECO sponsors or representatives (e.g. solicitors) may be permitted to attend an interview with an applicant, but will be given observer status only.They may make notes but should not intervene.
    Posts are reminded that it may, of course, in some cases be useful to take the opportunity of the sponsors presence to conduct a separate interview. Interviews with sponsors should not become the norm.However, Posts should meet requests from accompanying sponsors who ask to speak to the ECO dealing with the application.


  3. #3
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    AVOID

    Steering the applicant to a particular answer.
    Well well well, we have known in the past, and in Gina's own interview that the ECO did indeed try to steer her towards admitting that she wanted a foreign husband only.

    Using hypothetical situations in questioning.
    Again ECO guilty as charged, he did in fact use a hypothetical situation when he said "If I refuse this visa, what will you do kill yourself or something".
    Again a clear violation of the guidelines issued to ECO in British Dimplomatic posts.

    I note also the information regarding sponsors, in fact the British Embassy Manila has a policy of instructing the Filipino guards downstairs that Sponsors may not enter the embassy, however the rules clearly state,

    A consistent approach is needed to ensure that all Posts offer the same advice to sponsors who ask to attend visa interviews. Current policy is that Posts have discretion on whether or not to admit sponsors to interviews. There is no blanket ban on sponsors attending. Equally they have no automatic right to attend. It is preferable to conduct the interview with the applicant alone, seeing the sponsor separately if necessary. ECOs should, therefore, draw on the following when sponsors make such requests:

    If a sponsor wants to speak to an ECO it can help to do this seperately from the interview with the applicant. This jelps ECO's to verify that the information presented by both is consistent;
    It would appear that whilst the sponsor should be acknowledged as being present and not left to hang around outside chatting to the Philippine Marines, clearly the sponsor has no right to attend, it is interesting that whether the sponsor verifies any information regarding accomodation or income, that is not the overwhelming reason to issue a visa, see what it says later>

    Reaching the final decision
    The burden of proof is on the applicant to satisfy the ECO that he or she meets the requirements of the Rules. In discharging that proof the applicant need only do so "on a balance of probabilities". You should weigh up the evidence before you as a whole, allowing for points both in favour of an applicant as well as any that may go against him. These applications have a right of appeal against the ECO’s decision and an explanatory statement will have to justify a decision to refuse.
    Note the terminology, the applicant has to satisfy, the ECO that he or she meets the requirements, on the balance of probability, that is why the ECO must weight up the pluses and minus, as any refusal must have be backed up by a summary, which can then be challenged in a Home Office appeal at the Immigration Appellate authority, the ECO will then have to justify the decision to refuse.


    The next bit makes me laugh, look at this....

    Local visa information handouts should include the following advice:
    Has anyone ever been given Visa Information handouts, there has never been any mention in the information given, about the rights of sponsors to attend interviews for entry clearance.


    if they choose to accompany the applicant to the Visa Section, sponsors might not be interviewed unless the Visa Officer decides that certain points need clarification;
    This is of course a complete joke, since in my case and many others the sponsor was not allowed to accompany the applicant to the Visa Section.

    at the discretion of the ECO sponsors or representatives (e.g. solicitors) may be permitted to attend an interview with an applicant, but will be given observer status only.They may make notes but should not intervene.
    Again this option is not available to the sponsor, who seems to be treated as a 2nd class citizen, it clearly says the sponsor may atend the interview if only in the capacity as an observer, they may take notes but should not intervene.

    Summary of the Above Information




    Naturally these guidelines are issued to the Diplomatic posts, as exactly that, guidelines, now there are lots of ways that guidelines can be interpreted, thats almos the same as saying the following

    The guidelines leave many questions unanswered
    Which ones are those you might ask ?

    Actually they were the ones that wern't asked
    I rest my case, the guidelines are often exactly that, just a general guide, the problem with all of this, which by thee way, I mini-hacked into tonight, show one thing, that they are in fact totally ambiguous, since they say one thing and then say but that may not be the case, in other words,

    The sponsor can attend with the applicant to the visa section, however he may not at the discretion of the ECO be admitted into the interview at the discretion of the ECO,
    sadly the ECO has the final word, in all cases, the British Embassy Manila has made the decision not to admit any British Nationals into the Visa Section.

    And of course there is no re-dress or right to complain about these procedures, and the scope for Ambiivalence is simply not tolerated, complaints will not be entertained, its a take it or leave it situation.

    Its good though to see exactly what the guidelines are, and how decisions should be made in principle, the good thing I note here, is that the ECO is expected to make a quick decision based on the information before them on the day of the interview, on the balance of probability of the Applicant living with the Sponsor in Marriage, but it still shows one thing, we must educate our prospective wives, fiancee's that it is their job and their job alone to satisfy the ECO of their sincerity, the Sponsor may only be interviewed as a last resort, and the burden of proof is on the Applicant, that is the overidding factor.

    Hope you all enjoyed this.


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    Thanks Pete some useful Info here and well summed up by you.

    It shows how ensuring your Lady realises that she has to take the lead and not rely on her Husband. I have been suprised how my Wife who sometimes seems to let officals get their own way in everyday occasions. Can if she needs to take the situation and assert herself.

    Both at the CFO and at the DFA problems could have been encountered if she had been timid.

    Today she recieved her new Passport back, with her new name after a few Telephone calls.

    We were told that she should have recieved her passport and paperwork back on the 17th, but when the 17th and been and gone no sign of the paperwork.
    Only after several days did my Wife decide to start calling as always with officaldom its rare things are sorted out after the first call.

    My wife is learning so slowly but surely to assert her self.

    But it seems crazy that my wife who can haggle and argue with the toughest Trycycle driver or Shopkeeper, suddenly freezes with a person who is a public offical.

    Like you have said pete a Husband needs to support and encouarge their Wife in this matter.

    The best way seems to be ensuring you both read, listen and research as much as you can on the procedures. Wish i had found this site earlier, as it would have saved so much searching, reading and worrying.

    Once you both know the procedure it should help you both feel far more Confident.

    Cheers Pete another article with a wealth of information.


  5. #5
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Yes, the best way for a successful result, is where the Filipina Fiancee or wife works in conjunction with the husband fiance, to do their research together, so that when they come to face official situations they can get the required result.

    There is one point that needs to come out, which rarely does, when it comes to trying to get your loved one to come and live in the UK, the husband/fiance, is actually more or less pushed out of the loop, and rarely gets a chance to be represented unless the situation goes to an appeal in the UK.

    This is frustrating, I managed to find out recently from talking to one of the MP's who has visited the British Embassy in Delhi, India and Dakar, Bangladesh, that the reason that the sponsor is not admitted to the Embassy for his wife's interview, is simply to prevent the sponsor from prompting the applicant to give the required answers, obviously in those countries, the Embassy is swamped with applications, and there are many arranged marriages.

    In genuine marriages, or relationships, this causes frustration and outright resentment for the sponsor, who only seeks to obtain entry clearance for his wife, marriage in itself, I am now told is not a reason to allow entry clearance, let me state that again "Marriage is not a reason for allowing entry clearance"

    What does this mean when we break it down, well it would appear that the institution of marriage cannot be seen as an automatic right of entitlement to admit a foreign national, this is because marriage or the participation in a marriage ceremony has much been mis-used as a means of obtaining a passport to a better life from developing countries, the British government is fully aware that those who seek to leave developing countries, may wish to do so through the better life chances that marriage to a foreign national will bestow on them.

    The Philippines is a country listed that fits that category, in othe words, it is one of those countries, where extra special care is taken when vetting an application for entry clearance, it now becomes apparent, that the procedures to admit, are much more stringent in those British Overseas missions, than they would be, say in the USA Canada, or even Switzerland, for example, these are not considered to be developing countries, people are not often associated with trying to leave the country for better life chances, by using love and marriage as a means of transit.

    So..even if one marries in the Phlippines, it becomes clear that the institution of marriage is not relevant in terms of entry clearance, what is relevant is that the two intend to live as man and wife in the United Kingdom, and can support themselves without recourse to public funds.

    I am not stating anything new here, we already know this, but it also means that a decision to admit is also arbitrary, relying on one civil servants opinion, for example, how can he or she determine whether they intend to live.

    This is done on probability, in other words, the ECO has to decide based on the evidence before him or her, and the interview questioning, now here is my point I wish to make to all Forum members, where some of you have already alluded to my post before.

    It is so important to brief your wife or fiancee about our Immigration rules, she simply cannot go there, with a blase attitude, as in Kenny's case, on the 6th June, where the applicant wife had the answers about his family members, written on her hand in blue ink.

    This on first glance, made me wince, since I knew the chances are, they would be refused based on the balance of probabability, how did I come to that conclusion, well hey lets be truthful, if you have to be prompted into saying, what your husbands brother is called, or his parents, there has to be something seriously wrong with the relationship, not that there is, but the probability factor comes in even more, is it likely that if she cannot be bothered to know who is parents are, then is it likely that they know each other well enough ?

    Again I must stress for those of you who go to the Embassy in the future with your wife or fiancee, you must brief your intended loved one, about the rules and balance of probability, that is how the decision is made, the first thing the ECO checks is the basics.

    1. Accomodation is that satisfactory.

    2. Income and Maintenance is that satisfactory.

    If those 2 factors are in place, and are adequate, the only thing then to look at, is the evidence that the wife or fiancee intends to live with the sponsor.

    That is where the balance of probability comes in, again I will stress, the ECO makes an abitrary decision on this, this can make or break your application, if the ECO does not think that the couple intend to live together, bang a refusal is issued, with a right of appeal.

    But, thats aggro, as some people often find out, because they dont understand any of this.

    1. they are not prepared.

    2. The Applicant wife or fiancee has no help or has not been briefed properly about the rules, and how to satisfy the ECO..

    Now what is my main point.

    Well its simply this, you have to remember, that the Sponsor is rarely allowed into the interview with an ECO, if they are. they are interviewed separately, for the reasons I have just given, when you understand why they do this, it makes complete sense, since then the two of you cannot concoct a relationship out of thin air.

    This is the point however, the Filipina is the one who is left with the burden of establishing the probable intent, in my view, if she is briefed that this is her role to play, the chances of a successful result is greatly enhanced to 90 per cent chance, simply because she knows what her role is.

    The Sponsor can do little at the point of interview other than ensure that the wife or fiancee has all the relevant paperwork, has been coached on the possible questions, and really and truly, it is up to her, as Kenny found out, his wife was in my view ill prepared, she had not been briefed as to her role, she knew little of the rules when it came to "probability of living together" and in my view, that greatly contributed to her refusal.

    I hope this helps others who go after some of us who have been through this, at least you are much better prepared than some of us before you, much of what I have written in the last 18 months, has come from careful study and witnessing events, and trawling through home office rules, which if you look carefully enough are actually on the internet for everyone to digest, although not suprisingly they are very well hidden, only if you know how to use search strings, you can usually find what you want.

    Hope this helps.


    Remember this in all things

    The Key is "Balance of Probability that the applicant wife and the sponsor husband (applicant fiancee and Sponsor fiance) intend to live as man and wife in the UK.

    Balance of probability, is only established through a question and answer session, at the British Overseas mission, quite literally, how the Filipina performs, is the key, if she is weak and indecisive, and gives out the wrong impression, it can be disastrous, as we all know, tthe following question is the dagger in the back....

    "So you want a better life in the UK then"?

    answer Yes..I do.
    Hhahahahah result...disasterous.

    "So I suppose you are looking forward to going to UK for a better life"

    Answer..oh yes I am,

    Answers like this are in themselves not unreasonable, I mean who wouldnt be looking forward to coming to another country for a better life, isnt it what we all want ???

    The problem with answering in that way, actually seeks to give the interviewer, who knows little or nothing about your relationship, a one sided prospective, in other words. a negative prospective, unless the Filipina can be more assertive and define her answers like this.


    "So you want to come to UK for a better life then "?


    The Filipina answers this way - I had not thought of that really, my husband wants me to come and live with him, I did of course ask him to come here to the Philippines, he told me that his career is in the UK, and that he doesnt really want to leave his job, I have my family here in the Philippines, leaving is not going to be easy, but I have discussed it with my husband, and agreed to come with him, I realize, he wants me to take care of him, on that basis I should be with him.


    Do you see the difference in the answers, can you get your Filipina wife or fiancee to answer that question in that way, because if you can get her to do just that, it really does put the ECO into a position of backing off.


    Or for example " Come on..surely you cant expect me to beleive after only 3 months that you know this man ?


    Well sir, I put it to you, that I know my husband, I know everything about him, and I love him, its my decision to go and live with him, all I want to do is take care of my husband, I do expect you to believe me, simply because its true.

    In this case, I am trying to empathize something here, its not a matter of whether the ECO beleives the relationship is genuine, but simply, the Filipina's is so assertive in her answer, that he thinks she does !!!!

    In other words, the applicants answer to the question is strong and has self belief, if she believes it then it must be true.

    Here is another example....

    So you wanted to marry a foreigner to get you to the UK..do you really expect me to beleive that you didnt want that ???

    This is a very hard question to answer at first, since it seeks to put a suggestion to the Applicant, then it makes the question more personalized, by insisting that the applicant convinces the ECO to change his mind about the applicants intentions.

    The question appears to be prejudicial, the ECO for example appears to have made up his or her mind in the question, it appears then that the applicant has to rebuttle the question to get anywhere, but the question could be easily dismissed in the following manner !

    I cannot deny that I was looking to marry a foreigner, because of the qualities I perceived they posess, when I met my husband, he was sweet and kind to me, I immedeatly fell for his qualities, such as...(you are now being specific, demonstrating a knowledge of your husband), his honesty, his caring attitude, his gentleness, his generosity, yes, I do actually expect you to beleive me, because its true, I love my husband, if he could live with me in the Philippines, my family would prefer that, I know my husband has often talked with me about it, but he does not think he could make a living in the economy, I would be happy to live in either country, no I must admit, I would have preferred to live here in the Philippines.


    Again a similar answer, but the applicant is re-iterating to the ECO that the prospect of a better life chance in a G8 country is not the overriding factor in the relationship, this therefore establishes that coming to the UK to live, is not the primary motive for the application, nor the marriage.

    This is a favourite tactic of an ECO...they ask questions in the "Surely you are not expecting me to beleive ???"

    This is of course unfair in one sense, since most Filipina's are not used to confrontational style questioning methods, If an ECO did this to me, I would love to be given the opportunity of wiping the smirk off their faces, but as I have said before, we are not allowed into the interview.

    This "Surely you are not expecting me to beleive seems very similar to this"

    "Surely you are not asking the jury to beleive "??? does it not sound like that,...hmmm it does to me.

    Sadly, this is exactly what is its, to convince the jury, that is the ECO, whose intitial decision is arbitrary, you dont have 12 peers to consider your decision based on all probablity, if you did, based on the evidence, most applications would be successful anyway, you only have one person considering the evidence, who seems to have more power, than a Judge at that point.

    Only later if the matter goes to an appeal, does level headed, ajudication officers, that is Senior Lawyers, get to look at the matter, they just intepret the law on Immigration, if the applicant meets the current rules, then the decision of an ECO is overturned, and a visa is issued.

    I hope this valuable insight gives some happy reading, but it does need to be thought about.

    Best of luck


  6. #6
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Petes Guide to the Role of the Entry Clearance Officers of the British Embassy Manila Philippines.


    For the next few weeks I am going to be writing one or two articles mainly for the Filipina to research, the reason I am doing this, is because the Filipina is the Applicant, she is generally the one who has to make a convincing argument that her relationship is genuine and that her application is to be taken seriously, the sponsor, generally the husband/fiance has little to do other than provide evidence of savings, income and accomodation.

    Lets take a look at the attitudes to the interview by Entry Clearance Officers at the British Embassy in Manila.

    Firstly, Entry Clearance Officers in developing countries such as the Philippines tend to be subjective in their opinions of an applicant, the phrase "They think every applicant is either 1. a Bar girl, or 2. an economic migrant".

    But let us deal here with the methodology used in asking questions, which at times is highly suspect, they tend to forget that they are dealing with a race of people who are not used to confrontational style questioning.

    Many applicants in developing countries not just the Philippines tend to compain of Police style questioning and intimadation during an interview, naturally the ECO's will deny this, but the applicant feels it nevertheless.

    Lets look at the methodolgy of the questions.


    Firstly we all know it is the job of the ECO to establish the facts of an application, he or she will do this through a series of questions, the applicant is at the mercy of there own responses to such questions, ECO's are briefed as to the guidelines they may use when asking questions, however, there is no evidence available to prove whether they do this or not.

    I will give you one specific example of this.

    ECO: So are you telling me..you met your husband on the internet, surely you cant expect me to believe you fell in love with him.

    Applicant: Yes Sir I did, we have known each other for 2 years, but we just fell in love !

    ECO: Really ? how could that be the case, you had not met ?

    Applicant: Well sir, it just happened, We had been communicating so long over the net, and texting and calling, so we fell in love ?

    ECO: Rubbish !!!!



    Here we have a classic example of the ECO using an abrupt cut off, firstly its a clever way of causing the applicant to be silent, and unless the applicant is more assertive and rebuttles the ECO's statement, he or she may decide the relationship is not genuine.

    The applicant has to be more assertive but at the same time without appearing to be rude to the ECO.

    For example look at this.


    Applicant: Sir you are of course entitled to your own opinion, however I have told you the truth regarding my relationship with xxxxx, we are in love, since then my husband/fiance has been to visit me, we enjoyed a very loving relationship, and now I wish to join my husband/fiance as we intend to live together for the rest of our lives.


    Now looking at the above reply, the ECO has little choice than to accept that what he has in front of him or her, is a genuine relationship that fits the rules, no amount of abrupt cut offs; is going to change that, the ECO has to accept that on the balance of probability, that the applicant certainly beleives that she will live with her husband or fiance after marriage permamently in the United Kingdom, remembering of course, that it is unlikely that the husband or fiance is likely to be called forward to be interviewed seperately, therefore, the evidence has been submitted orally and decidedly.

    So Fililipina applicants have to be aware of Abrupt cut offs...ECO'S use them very successfully, they should not be allowed to get away with making such abrupt cut offs, but sadly they do, tilt the buoy in your favour, learn how to answer abrupt cut offs.


  7. #7
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    Nice to see you can write all that without one swear word
    Regards,

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  8. #8
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Originally posted by admin@Jul 27 2005, 07:58 AM
    Nice to see you can write all that without one swear word

    I hear you Keith trust me I want to, but that would not get us anywhere, but I do it under my breath...


  9. #9
    andypaul's Avatar
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    Great reading wish i had read earlier Pete.

    Now we have filled in the form and gathered all the paperwork its down to the me writing the Supporting letter.


  10. #10
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Originally posted by andypaul@Jul 30 2005, 09:40 PM
    Great reading wish i had read earlier Pete.

    Now we have filled in the form and gathered all the paperwork its down to the me writing the Supporting letter.
    It has been said. that a supporting letter is a good way to introduce your relationship to an Entry Clearance Office who is given the task of interviewing the applicant, we have no evidence of course to tell us just how important this is, but I'm sure it can have a positive effect on establishing the genuiness of the relationship, it gives the ECO some idea as to a time-line perhaps of the relationship between the applicant and sponsor.

    This was noted during the interview transcript when the ECO can allude perhaps to the amount of visits the sponsor has made to the applicant, a clear indication that the ECO had read the letter, having said that, I am absolutely convinced that the Oral interview is the key deciding factor in granting a visa.

    The Oral Interview is the only time when the ECO gets an opportunity of establishing the balance of probability that the applicant and sponsor are likely to live as man and wife in the UK, my information lately is pushing me more in the direction of the concern that ECO's are mindful that once the visa has been granted the marriage or relationship seems to disintigrate after arrival at a UK port of entry.

    This leads me to beleive that they are very suspicious of the motive for the application, they seem to have statistics from the Home Office showing that the amount of applications to get permanent residency after the 2 year point, are not consistent with the number of visa's issued for marriage i.e. 2 year temporary residency visas.

    This point was also given to me in a private interview recently with my MP who has visited the Embassy in Manila during his career, he pointed out to me, that his figures from the Home Office show a large number of applicants where marriages have simply disintegrated shortly or after arrival in the UK, at first I was sceptical of this in relation to British-Filipino relationships, however he did assure me that there is a significant amount of visa's which do not progress to full permanent residency with the original sponsor, i.e. the husband.

    He then told me that its likely that the not so genuine applicants simply leave their husbands when their intentions are to obtain work to support their families in the Philippines, and then simply dissapear into the system, the system being, they attach themselves to other Filipinos, and find accomodation somwhere, and then work, he also told me some husbands immedeatly inform the home office, and attempt to have the wife's visa removed, and or deported.

    That is why he has seen evidence of this, we dont want to make too much out of this, the fact is, the British Overseas Missions are aware of this, and maybe that is a factor that we did not always think about before, it might not mean much to us, but they certainly think it does, so we have to be aware that this factor is very much on the mind of the ECO.

    Hope this pont also helps during interview preparations.


  11. #11
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    Very intresting points made there Pete.

    I can see this point of view, allthough we are all very lucky Men with Loving Wifes. It is quite easy to see that someone from the outside would find it hard to belive how we all feel about our spouses both Brit hubbys and Pinay wives.

    A lot of people can't accpect that not everyone meets the girl of there dreams in the local pub. I never thought i would meet my Wife Chatting about Football online!! That i would spend everynight on the Internet(typing,talking into headset and waving at a computer screen) or with a phone glued to my ear or that i would be researching phillipino cooking online.

    Learning the local history and tradtions of a country which untill a few years ago all i knew about it was an ex leaders wife had a thing for shoes and they had a lot of Nurses who do a great job supporting the NHS.


    Today is D day to start writing out my letter, and intend to mention all the points you have covered in your useful article on covering letters.


    I think i will just have a jog to help me think how i will lay out my letter.


  12. #12
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    A lot of people can't accpect that not everyone meets the girl of there dreams in the local pub.
    That is of course a very important point, more and more relationships are made via internet, over 676 Million dollars were spent last year in the USA alone on Internet relationships and the pursuit on them, but lest we forget, the Entry Clearance Officers have a marked noticable downer on these type of meetings.

    Very often a relationship which started via internet, is scrutinized much more it would appear, than a personal meeting in say the Middle East with an OCW, or a person working in the Philippines at the time.

    This is prejudicial of course, who ever said that the rules are fair, they are certainly not, that would of course be too easy.

    A Covering letter should really look like this.

    An Introductory paragraph, stating the name of the Applicant, tthe sponsor, and a overview as follows.

    1. An overview of our relationship.

    2. The Circumstances in which we met.

    3. Our Financial Status.

    4. Our Accomodation arrangments in UK.

    5. Care of any Children.

    Our intentions for the future, i.e. living together as man and wife.


    That is the basics of such a letter.


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    Always best to supply to much info, I usually waffle on in the covering letters, no good keeping it short. The longer it is I think shows more commitment.
    Regards,

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    Originally posted by ginapeterb@Jul 31 2005, 10:18 AM

    This leads me to beleive that they are very suspicious of the motive for the application, they seem to have statistics from the Home Office showing that the amount of applications to get permanent residency after the 2 year point, are not consistent with the number of visa's issued for marriage i.e. 2 year temporary residency visas.

    This point was also given to me in a private interview recently with my MP who has visited the Embassy in Manila during his career, he pointed out to me, that his figures from the Home Office show a large number of applicants where marriages have simply disintegrated shortly or after arrival in the UK, at first I was sceptical of this in relation to British-Filipino relationships, however he did assure me that there is a significant amount of visa's which do not progress to full permanent residency with the original sponsor, i.e. the husband.

    That is why he has seen evidence of this, we dont want to make too much out of this, the fact is, the British Overseas Missions are aware of this, and maybe that is a factor that we did not always think about before, it might not mean much to us, but they certainly think it does, so we have to be aware that this factor is very much on the mind of the ECO.

    Hope this pont also helps during interview preparations.
    Statistics are like a lamp post to a drunken man - more for leaning on than for illumination. Process and procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly; this applies ten fold for Entry Clearance officers and, for the most part, MPs who couldn't give a monkeys about their constituents and will fob them off with all sorts of statistics so that they don't have to do anything themselves to help.

    I don't care if 99% of applicants turn out to be bogus, and the filipina skips off as soon as she gets to the UK leaving the hapless british guy standing there like a lemon wondering where it all went wrong. That does NOT mean that everyone therefore needs to be treated like ****.

    Taking that approach is as wrong and immoral as locking up every single Muslim just because a handful of them turn out to be fanatical nutjobs. An ECO has a DUTY to aproach every application on its MERITS, with no PRECONCEIVED PREJUDICES about a situation; nor should he allow himself to be UNDULY INFLUENCED by IRRELEVANT CONSIDERATIONS.

    There could be a million reasons why there are less applications for ILR than for initial entry clearance. Maybe the marriage failed and the filipina went home? Maybe they both left because she just didn't like the UK/was homesick. Maybe they moved elsewhere for job reasons, or were just simply fed up of the bureacracy and prejudice of the UK. For the Home Office and that MP to take such a basic statistic and then, with no evidence WHATSOEVER, to claim that therefore this means most marriages are bogus and, therefore, you should expect to be treated with suspicion and derision, is appalling. Given that the Home Office can't even generate a list of the asylum seekers that it KNOWS ABOUT, let alone the ones it doesn't know about (I've seen this from the inside), I attach about as much credibility and realism to Home Office statistics as I would to an episode of Bad Girls.

    So, I'm not impressed with that MPs response; it certainly does not make me look at the Embassy process with less displeasure and contempt; if anything, it only heightens my condemnation of their attitude and approach. What the hell happened to "innocent until proven guilty"???

    If it were my MP, he'd have been given a right mouthful from me about due process, balance of probabilities and the requirement not to let political and prejudiced personal bias influence the actions of a civil servant in carrying out his duties. Any ECO trying to hind behind the claim he is "only carrying out orders" is a moron. What a dunce.


  15. #15
    Respected Member ginapeterb's Avatar
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    Originally posted by peterdavid@Aug 1 2005, 09:37 AM
    Statistics are like a lamp post to a drunken man - more for leaning on than for illumination. Process and procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly; this applies ten fold for Entry Clearance officers and, for the most part, MPs who couldn't give a monkeys about their constituents and will fob them off with all sorts of statistics so that they don't have to do anything themselves to help.

    I don't care if 99% of applicants turn out to be bogus, and the filipina skips off as soon as she gets to the UK leaving the hapless british guy standing there like a lemon wondering where it all went wrong. That does NOT mean that everyone therefore needs to be treated like ****.

    Taking that approach is as wrong and immoral as locking up every single Muslim just because a handful of them turn out to be fanatical nutjobs. An ECO has a DUTY to aproach every application on its MERITS, with no PRECONCEIVED PREJUDICES about a situation; nor should he allow himself to be UNDULY INFLUENCED by IRRELEVANT CONSIDERATIONS.

    There could be a million reasons why there are less applications for ILR than for initial entry clearance. Maybe the marriage failed and the filipina went home? Maybe they both left because she just didn't like the UK/was homesick. Maybe they moved elsewhere for job reasons, or were just simply fed up of the bureacracy and prejudice of the UK. For the Home Office and that MP to take such a basic statistic and then, with no evidence WHATSOEVER, to claim that therefore this means most marriages are bogus and, therefore, you should expect to be treated with suspicion and derision, is appalling. Given that the Home Office can't even generate a list of the asylum seekers that it KNOWS ABOUT, let alone the ones it doesn't know about (I've seen this from the inside), I attach about as much credibility and realism to Home Office statistics as I would to an episode of Bad Girls.

    So, I'm not impressed with that MPs response; it certainly does not make me look at the Embassy process with less displeasure and contempt; if anything, it only heightens my condemnation of their attitude and approach. What the hell happened to "innocent until proven guilty"???

    If it were my MP, he'd have been given a right mouthful from me about due process, balance of probabilities and the requirement not to let political and prejudiced personal bias influence the actions of a civil servant in carrying out his duties. Any ECO trying to hind behind the claim he is "only carrying out orders" is a moron. What a dunce.
    ditto


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