Nurses from Eastern Europe put NHS patients in danger

[Terpe]

Dedworth, you are completely right to raise to this issue and you are completely right in all you have said.
My wife is not a nurse but she is connected to the care organisations. She has constantly been under scrutiny about her performance and especially her competency for communication in English. Yet, in the very same organisations EU citizens are NOT required to demonstrate any competency for communication in English. In fact many really struggle to know what to do.
I have many many stories from my wife that would horrify almost all members here.

I have written letters and sent many e-mails to my local MP, to the CEO of our Primary Care Trust, to the Director of Adult Social Care and to Andrew Lansley (Secretary of State for Health) to Paul Burstow (Minister of State for Care Services)
This has been on-going and I have NEVER received any satisfactory response.
ALWAYS the blame is put against EU regulations. Well I think this is just a lame excuse because no-one wants to take any risks in contravening EU regulations. Whilst at the same time allowing contraventions of human decency and common b****y sense.

Most of our elected government representatives have no idea what to do, and no motivation to find out.

If anyone is really interested to research, you may find that there is a big big difference between the rights of EU citizens in UK and the rights of UK citizens in UK. That is unforgivable in any sense of the word IMHO

I would strongly urge all to write and complain and seek answers why.
The response (if any) you will get will cause you to be amazed, surprised and eventually disappointed beyond belief.

Sorry for the rant, some things make my blood boil. This is one of them.
Especially when it leads to humiliation of my wife. (Notice I did not say discrimination!! but it's the same thing for us)

[Sim11UK]

If anyone is really interested to research, you may find that there is a big big difference between the rights of EU citizens in UK and the rights of UK citizens in UK. That is unforgivable in any sense of the word IMHO

Off topic, but visa fees springs to mind.

[stevewool]

yep all of them

[Terpe]

Off topic, but visa fees springs to mind.

May be off-topic but very true.
Then compare how easy for EU citizens to live and work in UK against UK citizens opportunities in other EU states.

[joebloggs]

May be off-topic but very true.
Then compare how easy for EU citizens to live and work in UK against UK citizens opportunities in other EU states.

not only EU citizens terpe but their family, whether European or not can not be restricted from working, it's that a filipina married to a Brit has to take IELTS and Plab exams, yet a non Brit EU citizen's filipina wife doesn't if they come to the Uk

as i said b4 its up to the trust to check EU docs are qualified and can speak English at a acceptable level , but all doctors should be registered with the GMC, its not only if your qualified and can speak English at a good level, but they ask for a certificate of good standing as well as other checks before you can register.

also to register with the GMC you need an acceptable primary medical qualification and it has to be awarded by an institution listed on the Avicenna Directory for Medicine

[Doc Alan]

Dedworth, you are completely right to raise to this issue and you are completely right in all you have said.


I have written letters and sent many e-mails to my local MP, to the CEO of our Primary Care Trust, to the Director of Adult Social Care and to Andrew Lansley (Secretary of State for Health) to Paul Burstow (Minister of State for Care Services)
This has been on-going and I have NEVER received any satisfactory response.
ALWAYS the blame is put against EU regulations.

Ded may be right, but it would be polite - and good communication skills - to recognise that I raised the issue over a year ago .
Doctors and nurses with more influence than me are doing their best to improve matters. The comment in the Daily Mail by a relatively unknown obstetrician / gynaecologist in Shanghai criticising Lord Winston is unhelpful !
As for your own attempts to obtain a satisfactory response, you have my sympathy, and admiration for trying .

[grahamw48]

May one enquire as to why our learned friends at the BMA/GMC did not anticipate the blatantly obvious, and prevent this disgraceful situation from occurring in the first place ?

THEY are supposed to be the experts, and presumably are the ones who set the standards.

As for the medical profession's staff needs, they should give priority to the children of THIS country. OUR children !

I am tired of this politically-correct clap-trap, especially when we are the only country damned stupid enough to throttle ourselves with it.

[Dedworth]

Ded may be right, but it would be polite - and good communication skills - to recognise that I raised the issue over a year ago .
Doctors and nurses with more influence than me are doing their best to improve matters. The comment in the Daily Mail by a relatively unknown obstetrician / gynaecologist in Shanghai criticising Lord Winston is unhelpful !
As for your own attempts to obtain a satisfactory response, you have my sympathy, and admiration for trying .

Apologies - I'd not searched the archives and seen you'd raised it 12 months before but many topics have the habit of repeatedly re-appearing, we'd be here all night if a full archive search was a requirement before posting or not. I raised this on the basis of a recent statement made by Winston in the House of Lords and its subsequent report in the Mail, Telegraph, Express etc.

Is Doctor Mahady that unknown ? he claims to be one or link himself to former Examiners of the General Medical Council Professional and Linguistics Assessment Board

He's mentioned in Hansard after being removed from his consultant post which following a protest by 20 other consultants resulted in the Hospitals Medical Director being reduced to the ranks

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...lth-care-trust

Speaking English, Danish, French and German himself Dr Mahady seems fairly well qualified to comment on the subject of Eastern European health workers with a less than decent grasp of the English language

[Doc Alan]

May one enquire as to why our learned friends at the BMA did not anticipate the blatantly obvious, and prevent this disgraceful situation from occurring in the first place ?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ! The BMA is a trade union, and the GMC sets standards.
I can't be expected to have the answers - or take responsibility - for every aspect of health in the UK and Philippines. It's not why I joined the forum.

[joebloggs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596

Niall Dickson, chief executive of the GMC, said: "On the general issue of doctors coming to work here from the European Union, the GMC remains extremely concerned that the current arrangements do not provide patients with the protection they need.

"Patient safety must come first and we need to plug the gaping hole in our current procedures."

Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said he was working to ensure foreign staff have the right language skills.

"I am working closely with the GMC to ensure that foreign healthcare professionals are not allowed to work in the NHS unless they have proven their competence and language skills."

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes

[Doc Alan]

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes

Completely agree

[grahamw48]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ! The BMA is a trade union, and the GMC sets standards.
I can't be expected to have the answers - or take responsibility - for every aspect of health in the UK and Philippines. It's not why I joined the forum.

Not directed at you personally Doc...just 'thinking aloud'.

Naturally I meant the the 'responsible' body - ie GMC, which I hadn't had time to google mid-rant.

[stevewool]

wow i am just so glad i live in my bubble protected from whats going on outside my wallet

[lastlid]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596

I dont think the problem is with the Gov, GMC or BMA, its EU law which is preventing these changes

Bang on.

[Dedworth]

EU Law is to blame but so is our Govt in kowtowing to the Eurocrats. Other nations only accept the Euro rules that suit them. I heard a radio phone in today where Spain and Greece were specifically mentioned as having stringent language tests for all medical staff regardless of country of origin

[branno]

ok ... wots really worse than this... britain is donating more than 70 million pounds in the form of foreign aid to a south african country on the brink of starvation.. while at the same time stripping it of its most precious recource.. skilled nurses .

[Dedworth]

Foreign Doctors (including those from EU to face English Language tests - about time - worryingly no mention of Nurses or other frontline staff

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15164373

Doctors with a poor grasp of English will be prevented from working for the NHS in the future, Health Secretary Andrew Lansley has said.

He told the Conservative Party conference that GPs would be vetted to ensure they had adequate language skills and could communicate properly.

This follows the death of a man treated by a German locum GP in 2008.

Mr Lansley said the move was evidence of his "absolute commitment" to guarantee patient safety.

He also promised to reduce bureaucracy and spending on management consultants.

The pledge on language skills, which applies to the NHS in England, comes after the case of Daniel Ubani, a German locum doctor who gave 70-year-old David Gray a fatal painkiller overdose on his first and only shift in Britain in February 2008.

Investigations found Dr Ubani had been rejected for work in Leeds because of his poor English skills.

A UK coroner recorded a verdict of unlawful killing and accused Dr Ubani of gross negligence.
GMC powers

The GP was given a suspended sentence in Germany for death by negligence but has still been able to practise there.

In his speech, Mr Lansley said proficient language skills were equally as important as proper medical qualifications when it came to doctors being able to practise in England.

The rules will be changed to ensure that NHS officials have a duty to check the English language skills of all new foreign doctors before they can be employed, and the General Medical Council will be empowered to take action against doctors when there are concerns about their ability to speak English.

"This is not about discriminating," Mr Lansley said. "We have always appreciated how much overseas doctors and nurses give to our NHS.

"It is simply about our absolute commitment to put patient safety first. We will change the law to ensure that any doctor from overseas who does not have a proper level of English will not be able to treat patients in our NHS."

Doctors who want to work in the UK have to be registered with the GMC.

Currently, only those from outside the European Economic Area are routinely checked for language skills.
'Upheaval'

The GMC's chief executive, Niall Dickson, said Mr Lansley's announcement was "good news for patients".

He added: "Until today we had a glaring hole in our regulatory defences. The government has now signalled this will be closed so that doctors coming from the European Union can communicate to the standard required of all other doctors on our register."

But for Labour, shadow health secretary John Healey cited an open letter signed by more than 400 doctors and health specialists to the House of Lords urging peers to reject the controversial Health and Social Care Bill in a vote later this month.

"Patients and NHS staff can already see long waits returning and their services being cut back, as £2bn gets blown on an upheaval that no one wants and no one voted for," he said.

"Andrew Lansley and David Cameron are both in denial about the scale of opposition to the plans, and together they have failed to show that they are listening to the ever expanding chorus of concern about the Tories' wasteful reorganisation of the NHS."

[grahamw48]

I never considered myself particularly bright, but observing the group-dimwittedness of the people who are supposed to be running this country truly astonishes me.

[Doc Alan]

More than a third of doctors on the GMC medical register qualified outside the UK, a quarter of them from Europe. There's no shortage of British students wanting to study medicine, but the present reality is that the NHS relies on medics from overseas. It's only right, therefore, that the European Commission has stated - not before time - that language tests are legal for ALL doctors before GMC registration.
Of course this should also apply to nurses - it's not as if the NMC ( Nursing and Midwifery Council ) has not already made this point to the Government. If only that was the only problem facing the nursing profession right now ! Sadly, the country now has graduate nurses who have spent too much time in the classroom, are too posh to wash patients and too qualified to care; no SEN's ( State Enrolled Nurses ); and health care assistants doing " hands - on " nursing tasks. Most nurses still do an excellent job, but the NMC is not responsible for health care assistants and doesn't even know how many there are. Qualified nurses and health care assistants have a high level of stress at work, uncertain career prospects, and financial worries. The NHS needs to recruit the right people into nursing, with ability to speak English only one of the necessary skills.
As for Mr. Lansley's healthcare reforms - which are already being implemented - the Government claims that they have the backing of the health professions. Today's open letter from 400 health experts published in the Daily Telegraph clearly says they do not, neither do they have the public's support. Why ? They list " marketisation and commercialisation fragmenting patient care, risks to patient safety, erosion of medical ethics and trust, and wasting money ", among other reasons.
I guess most members just want the best health service possible, and find the proposed reforms hard to understand. Doctors, nurses, and other front line professionals - wherever they trained - must be regulated and communicate effectively. Leaders in these professions have certainly communicated loud and clear to the politicians. Forcing through these reforms is at best risky, and at worst reckless.

[grahamw48]

This all started when competition and 'business management' were introduced into the NHS in order to supposedly cut costs and (euphemism) 'streamline' services IMO.

I'm sorry, but competition and commercial-type practices and the caring professions just do not mix !

Yes, we need to have as inexpensive and efficient a health service as possible, but personally I would aim to achieve these ends by preventative measures and STRICTLY controlling the availability of services which are currently free of charge.

For a start, ALL time-wasting drunkards and other fools who use so much of the resources of A & E will be made to PAY for their transport and treatment.

The next of kin of helpless old people should be tracked down and either billed for their care or instructed to take the relation home with them.

People can afford £50,000 cars and holidays abroad, but will not take responsibility for their own parents' welfare.

[Dedworth]

For a start, ALL time-wasting drunkards and other fools who use so much of the resources of A & E will be made to PAY for their transport and treatment.

The next of kin of helpless old people should be tracked down and either billed for their care or instructed to take the relation home with them.

I wouldn't charge them but just hose all the binge drinkers and brawlers down then shove them in a skip outside A & E

[grahamw48]

Agreed...after they've been given the BILL.

[Dedworth]

Agreed...after they've been given the BILL.

2nd thoughts your're quite right Graham charge the scrotes first

[Doc Alan]

Foreign Doctors (including those from EU to face English Language tests - about time - worryingly no mention of Nurses or other frontline staff

Well done for noting this, Ded
The Daily Telegraph has since commented : " Mr Lansley is right to say that he will amend the Medical Act to ensure they all have a good grasp of the language. But he should not stop at doctors. In recent years, tens of thousands of foreign nurses have applied to work in British hospitals. They should not be allowed to do so unless they have a good working knowledge of English. "
Nurses from outside the EU - many from the Philippines - must demonstrate that their skills are up to standard before they can obtain work in hospitals, surgeries or care homes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council ( NMC ) needs proof of nursing in their own country in the past three years and makes them attend an intensive course in the UK. Up to a quarter ( 60,000 ) of nurses working in London are said to be foreign, with a high proportion from the Philippines, although recent cutbacks have meant fewer nursing vacancies these days. Until last year the NMC could subject nurses from the EU to the same tests, but were stopped from doing so because they were said to breach EU law on freedom of movement for workers from the continent.

[Arthur Little]

What I cannot get to grips with, IS ... ... if the GMC can override the EU on this crucial issue, then why can't the Nursing & Midwifery Council do likewise?

[Doc Alan]

What I cannot get to grips with, IS ... ... if the GMC can override the EU on this crucial issue, then why can't the Nursing & Midwifery Council do likewise?

The current disparity in the process for registration of EU and non-EU healthcare professionals, including nurses and midwives, was debated in the House of Lords last month.
The NMC say that it is " currently bound by EU law on the mobility of professionals, which leads to a less robust registration process for EU nurses and midwives ".

EU Directive 2005/36/EC Mutual Recognition of Professional Qualifications:
prevents us ( NMC ) from testing basic language competency,
contains no requirements for continuous professional development
and the rules on automatic recognition are based on minimum EU training standards that were set in the 1970s.
The current process presents a risk to patient safety, with concerns over EU nurses and midwives' language competence and knowledge of modern nursing standards.
Conversely, nurses and midwives from outside the EU must take the International English Language Test (IELTS) and are required to undertake the Overseas Nurses (or adaptation to Midwifery) Programme, a 20 day course with a three to six month period of supervised practice.

Hopefully all this means that things are about to change also for the nurses - the sooner the better .

[grahamw48]

EU membership (as I anticipated) has brought nothing but problems, ongoing hassle and permanent national security issues to this country and its citizens.

Thank god we didn't adopt the Euro.