Nurses from Eastern Europe put NHS patients in danger

[Dedworth]

Nurses from Eastern Europe put NHS patients in danger because they can’t speak proper English, one of Britain’s top doctors has warned.

Lord Winston said yesterday that he was particularly worried about those from Romania and Bulgaria who had limited communication skills ‘even in their own language’.

He told the House of Lords they had been trained in a ‘completely different way’ to British nurses, and were not used to speaking to doctors or their own patients.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...#ixzz1XRA83dyj

It is appalling that we bow down to the Euro rules that allow this situation

[KeithD]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow

[joebloggs]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow

europeans

[grahamw48]

Totally agree Dedworth.

It has to be of paramount importance that medical staff can communicate effectively with both other staff and patients. If not....no job.

Meanwhile there are many young British school-leavers with the correct A-level grades who want to enter the medical profession, but can't get a place on a course in their own country that DOES have space for foreigners.

This is a total nonsense.

[Arthur Little]

I couldn't understand the GP I had in the 80's, he was from Glasgow

... on the warpath ...

europeans

[johncar54]

Listening to many of the people interviewed on TV (especially the young) I get the impression there are a lot of people who appear to be u¡bale to speak English reasonably well and who are able to coherently express their thoughts.

NB I am referring to indigenous Brits not new comers!

[Arthur Little]

Totally agree Dedworth.

And ME! That's the very reason I'm so vehemently opposed to this Language Testing nonsense for decent, hardworking, friendly and law-abiding Filipino immigrants ... who are schooled in English and invariably contribute so much more to the UK Economy than any other Nationality on Earth (including most Europeans and many of the Brits themselves) !!!

[joebloggs]

And ME! That's the very reason I'm so vehemently opposed to this Language Testing nonsense for decent, hardworking, friendly and law-abiding Filipino immigrants ... who are schooled in English and invariably contribute so much more to the UK Economy than any other Nationality on Earth (including most Europeans and many of the Brits themselves) !!!

i'm pretty certain i'm right, if a brit does a medical degree outside the EU (with a few exceptions) you would probably have to take the academic version of IELTS and get i thinks its 7.0 or 7.5 in every part (not that easy to do) b4 you could do your PLAB exams and register with the GMC

[Arthur Little]

It is appalling that we bow down to the Euro rules that allow this situation

O~h, indeed it IS ... and this deplorable state of affairs is gonna continue ad-infinitum until extricates itself from bureaucratic European domination.

[Arthur Little]

Listening to many of the people interviewed on TV (especially the young) I get the impression there are a lot of people who appear to be *u¡bale to speak English reasonably well and who are able to coherently express their thoughts.

John ... ... were you meaning to type *unable? ...

[Dedworth]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

[Arthur Little]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

... PRECISELY my point in #7 !

[lastlid]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

I guess a drawback of signing up to the EEC....

[johncar54]

Plenty of highly qualified English speaking Filipino Healthcare staff (who can sail through the language tests) are being denied the opportunity of UK employment whilst the Eastern Europeans can put patients lives at risk.

Sorry I am confused. These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to compare apples with oranges

[andy222]

Totally agree Dedworth.

It has to be of paramount importance that medical staff can communicate effectively with both other staff and patients. If not....no job.

Meanwhile there are many young British school-leavers with the correct A-level grades who want to enter the medical profession, but can't get a place on a course in their own country that DOES have space for foreigners.

This is a total nonsense.

You have hit the nail on the head graham. Could not agree more.

[Dedworth]

Sorry I am confused.

Can't see why - read the Daily Mail article it's very simple, there's been previous postings on here

These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to comparing apples with oranges

These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English therefore unable to communicate with patients / co-workers thus putting lives at risk.

Filipinos with far higher qualifications, nursing and language skills are subject to the vagaries of UKBA jobs shortage list and stringent English tests.

Would you be happy to wake up in an ICU with an illiterate Romanian scratching her head wondering what controlled drugs to pump into you ?

[johncar54]

Dedworth.
I was not confused with the story but your reactions.

We all know very well that the EU has laws which give us all certain rights. Like working where we want in the EU.

But you seem to think that Filipinos who speak English (should) have more right to work in the UK than EU citizens have.

I have no personal knowledge of the professional qualifications which people need to work in the medical profession in the UK but I have no reason to believe that EU citizens do not require the SAME qualifications as anyone else.

"These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English"

Unfortunately, I believe that comment appears to reveal your prejudices rather than reality.

[Arthur Little]

Sorry I am confused. These workers from 'Eastern Europe' are EU citizens thus have the same rights as any other EU citizen.

You appear to be trying to compare apples with oranges

Not really, John.

We're talking here, about a basic lack of communication between key healthcare workers - notably doctors & nursing staff - and their patients. Regardless of Nationality! And therein lies the danger. Inevitably, medical standards throughout the world will continue to vary greatly according to the training and resources available. Nevertheless, in order to carry out his/her role effectively, a health professional ANYWHERE needs to be able to communicate on a level that the person receiving treatment fully understands. But whereas most - if not all - Filipino doctors and nurses are perfectly capable of fulfilling this fundamental requirement ... it seems the vast majority of their non-English speaking European counterparts are NOT!

[Dedworth]

Dedworth.
I was not confused with the story but your reactions.

We all know very well that the EU has laws which give us all certain rights. Like working where we want in the EU.

But you seem to think that Filipinos who speak English (should) have more right to work in the UK than EU citizens have.

I have no personal knowledge of the professional qualifications which people need to work in the medical profession in the UK but I have no reason to believe that EU citizens do not require the SAME qualifications as anyone else.

QUOTE "These EU Easterners can turn up with spurious qualifications and no or pidgin English"

Unfortunately, I believe that comment appears to reveal your prejudices rather than reality.

I only want Healthcare professionals who can communicate effectively with patients and co-workers and who fully understand the workings and practices of the NHS/UK Private Health Sector - that applies to lliterate Romanians, knackered German Locums administering x 10 correct drug dosage and sundry middle eastern doctors one can barely understand.

Unfortunately you chose not to answer my hypothetical question of your goodself lying in an ICU or does it's absence appear to reveal more of your slavish admiration of the crazed EU and it's so called "rights" ?

By the way I do speak with some knowledge - my wife's a Nurse and she's had to rectify some basic errors made by Eastern Europeans.

As an ex Policeman you might be interested that crime by your wonderful EU migrants has trebled in the last 3 years and surprise, surprise the top 3 league positions by a county mile are held by Poland, Romania and Lithuania

Britain is suffering an explosion in crimes by EU nationals, who are amassing more than 2,700 convictions every month.

Since 2007, the number of EU citizens punished for breaking the law in the UK has more than trebled.

The total is expected to hit a record 33,000 this year, placing huge pressure on the police, courts and overcrowded jails.

But because of EU diktats and Labour’s Human Rights Act, officials are finding it extremely hard to remove European lawbreakers once they have completed their sentences.

According to the latest Home Office figures, 27,563 EU nationals were convicted in 2010, up from 10,736 in 2007.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1XTUsTEiG

[Englishman2010]

Was there a case a couple of years ago where a Ghanaian doctor with a German Passport came to work here using EU freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?

[grahamw48]

was there a case a couple of years ago where a ghanaian doctor with a german passport came to work here using eu freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?

Yes.

[branno]

theres quite a few overseas doctors like that too..

[Dedworth]

Same problems in Sweden - blind adherence to bizarre EU Rules again to blame.

Foreign docs' poor Swedish leading to errors

http://www.thelocal.se/24618/20100127/

A doctor’s insufficient Swedish skills are being blamed for delaying the removal of a patient’s malignant melanoma by nearly two months, prompting concern among health officials about the number of doctors who don’t speak the language well enough.

“It’s increasingly the case that mistakes occur within the healthcare system because doctors from other countries can’t communicate adequately,” Karin Hedner, a supervisory doctor with the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen) regional office in Malmö, told the Dagens Medicin newspaper.

Hedner’s comments come following revelations that an 88-year-old patient at the Malmö University Hospital in southern Sweden failed to understand the severity of a diagnosis delivered by his foreign-born doctor.

The doctor had tried to explain that the patient’s malignant melanoma ought to be removed as soon as possible.

But the patient misunderstood the diagnosis and instead went on an extended overseas vacation, the Sydsvenskan newspaper reports.

When the 88-year-old had a follow up visit three months later, the growth had become nearly 50 percent larger.

“It is our conclusion that if they had been able to communicate better, perhaps he could have got the patient to understand that it should have been operated on right away,” Hedner told Sydsvenskan.

Another official with the health board’s supervisory division, Per-Anders Sunesson, confirmed that doctors’ Swedish skills are an issue, adding that the agency has alerted the government about the matter.

“The problem is growing as we get more doctors from other countries,” Sunesson told Dagens Medicin.

When doctors come to Sweden from countries outside the European Union they must first take a specialized language test before they receive a licence to practice medicine in Sweden.

However, when a doctor from another EU country comes to Sweden, it is up to their Swedish employer to ensure that they have sufficiently strong language skills, often resulting to uneven checks on how well doctors speak and understand Swedish.

[joebloggs]

Was there a case a couple of years ago where a Ghanaian doctor with a German Passport came to work here using EU freedom of movement rules and a patient died due to his errors of communication?

theres quite a few overseas doctors like that too..

non Eu docs have to pass IELTS and PLAB 1 and 2 exams to register with the GMC and to work in the uk, Eu docs dont have to, but its up to the NHS trust which is employing them to check they are qualified and their English is good enough, i think the German doctor was refused by a number of NHS trusts, but got lucky with one trust.

thou the crazy thing is, me being a brit, my wife had to pass ielts and plab exams to work in the uk, yet if she married a non Brit European, and decided to come to the uk, she wouldn't have to take ielts or plab exams because your not allowed to restrict Europeans from working

[joebloggs]

When doctors come to Sweden from countries outside the European Union they must first take a specialized language test before they receive a licence to practice medicine in Sweden.

However, when a doctor from another EU country comes to Sweden, it is up to their Swedish employer to ensure that they have sufficiently strong language skills, often resulting to uneven checks on how well doctors speak and understand Swedish.

same as you the uk

[branno]

i dont wish to rant and rave about whos the best ..ie.. british nurses or overseas nurses and doctors too.. but most people i kno .. say that they have always recieved far better treatment and far better bed side manners by our overseas friends...

[Dedworth]

Grandmother died 'after mumbling German doctor botched hip operation'

A grandmother died following a bungled hospital operation after a foreign surgeon who carried it out began 'mumbling' in German to colleagues as they tried to help save her life, a medical tribunal heard today.

Dr Werner Kolb, 51, claimed to speak 'very good English' yet reverted to his native language as he botched a hip operation on 94-year old Ena Dickinson as a locum at Grantham Hospital, Lincolnshire.

During the routine operation Dr Kolb cut the wrong muscle and severed an artery causing Mrs Dickenson to lose over two and a half litres of blood.

Colleagues who spotted he was 'struggling, frustrated and agitated' tried to ask him if they could help yet Kolb gave his response in German and another doctor had to be brought in to complete the procedure.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1XToccJD7

He legged it to Germany and refused to attend the GMC Disciplinary hearing - maybe he's practicing nowadays in sunnier climes - Spain perhaps

[Doc Alan]

I'm a Glasgow doctor - although not a GP - with multilingual communication skills .
http://filipinaroses.com/showthread....=Rogue+doctors
UK medicine is respected worldwide ; there are far more applicants than places at our medical schools ; only 7.5% of the undergraduate intake is from overseas. Numbers entering medical schools - and UK doctors - should reflect society's needs, demographics, and what is affordable. They should all have the same tests of competence , including communication skills, and continue professional development for their entire working life.
" Blind adherence to bizarre EU rules " is certainly not doctors' and nurses' faults . Stating facts ( as I have done previously ) and voicing strong opinions on a forum - or the " Daily Mail " - is not enough for changes to take place . Those who CAN make changes - influential doctors and nurses - are attempting to do just that :-
* Lord Winston is not the only one to speak out at the House of Lords Enquiry. Niall Dixon ( Chief Executive and Registrar of the General Medical Council ), Katerina Kolvya ( Assistant Director of Nursing and Midwifery Policy at the Nursing and Midwifery Council ) - to name but two - have already given evidence. Their main concerns :- whether language requirements for professionals who work in a country whose language is not in their native tongue need to be strengthened, GMC plans to introduce a language testing scheme, and gaps in current regulations.
* In July the GMC hosted a meeting of medical regulators from 17 European countries and the European Commission to discuss the EU Directive on recognition of professional qualifications. Here also language competence of doctors and registration processes were discussed.
* In April MPs called for urgent changes to overseas doctors vetting schemes providing out-of-hours GP care in the UK. Of course the Government should have acted sooner to press for change to the relevant EU Directive, enabling the GMC to test the clinical competence of doctors, and the NMC to do the same for nurses, and to undertake testing of language skills. Who would have thought the matter is still unresolved more than a year after I drew members' attention to it ?

[Dedworth]

I don't know if you know this Doc - Doc ? Ian Mahady

In the Mails readers comments he points out that Winston is as slippery as many politicians :-

As always Lord Winston is about 20 years out of date. When myself and other colleagues who were Examiners for the General Medical Council Professional and Linguistics Assessment Board pointed out that allowing doctors from EEC countries free access to jobs in the NHS, even if they had no knowledge of English, was dangerous, Lord Winston and his Labour Party colleagues were significantly silent on the matter and as a result we had the situation he is now complaining about in the Nursing profession. Why do politicians never listen to the professionals at the work face?
- DR Ian W Mahady, Shanghai, 8/9/2011 23:23

Another interesting post in the Mail from a Healthcare Professional :-

When I worked as a Registered Nurse in France I had to present myself to the regional registration board with my certificate. Only after a lengthy conversation in French, including a questioning of my medical knowledge was I given a reciprocal certificate of registration and allowed to work. WHY can we not do something similar. The sick and vulnerable of this nation deserve better than to have poorly trained "nurses" with limited command of the English language looking after them. How do these people form part of a team and carry out medical staff's instructions if they don't understand what is said to them. The sooner we leave the EU the better.

- K W Boyle, Bath Somerset, 9/9/2011 16:58

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1XU4z5fkv

[KeithD]

You're all out of order... we should embrace our European brethren and culture and learn all the languages within our happy community .... it shouldn't take that long for us all to be bilingual if we put our minds to it ... we'd only have to learn:

Official language(s)
Bulgarian
Czech
Danish
Dutch
English
Estonian
Finnish
French
German
Greek
Hungarian
Irish
Italian
Latvian
Lithuanian
Maltese
Polish
Portuguese
Romanian
Slovak
Slovene
Spanish
Swedish

Semi-Official language(s)
Catalan
Galician
Basque
Scottish Gaelic
Welsh

Minority language(s)
Albanian (Romania[1])
Asturian (Spain, Portugal)
Arabic (Ceuta [2])
Armenian (Cyprus, Poland, Romania)
Berber (Melilla)
Breton (France)
Catalan (Spain, France, Italy)
Cornish (United Kingdom)
Corsican (France, Italy)
Croatian (Austria, Hungary)
Cypriot Maronite Arabic (Cyprus)
Frisian (Netherlands, Germany)
Friulian (Italy)
Galician (Spain)
Kashubian (Poland)
Lower Sorbian (Germany)
Luxembourgish (Luxembourg)
Macedonian (Romania[3])
Meänkieli (Sweden)
Occitan (France, Italy, Spain)
Romani (Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden)
Russian (Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Romania)
Rusyn (Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Romania)
Sami (Finland, Sweden)
Sardinian (Italy)
Sassarese (Italy)
Scottish Gaelic (United Kingdom)
Serbian (Hungary)
Turkish (Bulgaria, Cyprus)
Ukrainian(Romania)
Upper Sorbian (Germany)
Walloon (Belgium)
Welsh (United Kingdom)
Yiddish (Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Sweden)