We must all sign this petition

[Iani]

Signed - not just because it might make a real mess of my personal plans for my future, but this is a disgraceful attack on someone's basic human right.
Yes we all know who the people are who are abusing this, so why not make it harder for that sort of scam.

They also really need to put this in perspective, so the government may be wanting to cut down migration, but marital visas - the thing which enables a FAMILY to be together - are not the major source of immigration, that is immigration from within the EU, which we can't stop, and really, we shouldn't stop as it works both ways.

The thing is, yes they want to as one part of a new ruling, raise the income threshold so people aren't coming here and on to benefits. The government "outsourced" this to a thinktank - who came up with these suggestions.

That is what it is though - suggestions. They could say no way and reject them all - or come up with one of their own - £30,000 plus or £10,000 or anything.

I really shouldn't equate "logic" with politicians, but surely setting an arbitary figure such as this would leave the government way open to court cases, and even moreso, as this would hit hard "you know who community", the perpetual accusation of "that's raaaaaaaaaaaaaacist".

Of course it needs opposing, and being aware of it, but it's already January, there's nothing on the internet about definite figures - or even that there will be a figure.

It also has to be remembered, that the average wage in one part of the uk can be drastically different to another part.

It will be interesting to see if this actually happens to be frank. If it does, then the court cases will soon erupt. Governments don't like to make laws they know could be challenged, and give them their due, will all joking apart always err on the side of caution.

If this does come in, it will be a real "pass the popcorn, sit back and watch the fallout" situation.

[Robert86]

i agree, it has totally ruined my plans.. i work full time as a caregiver and i only earn 14-15k a year, i work hard, im in no debt.. and have good savings... and this has completely thrown me off track..

[grahamw48]

It's the 'one fits all' aspect of this that is so grossly unfair, and is DISCRIMINATORY .

[lastlid]

I have a gut feeling that when April comes around, there will be changes, but not all in one go. Possibly in small increments, so that those that are applying soon after April will not feel the brunt of the governments intentions.....

[rusty]

It's the 'one fits all' aspect of this that is so grossly unfair, and is DISCRIMINATORY .

Unfortunately, this statement applies on many aspects of our lives, not just this subject.

We are in a minority by having foreign partners, the majority of people, mostly uneducated about this subject, will only see what is in the newspapers and think that all the problems are caused by immigration, therefore, you will never get mass support to stop this change happening.

If you look at some of the other e-petitions you will see that 135,739 want to stop the population increasing to 70 million, 10,130 want to stop mass migration and 1,354 want to stop all immigration into the UK.

As it has been mentioned before, that the government do not have a great success rate when bringing in some new changes and it has been quoted that the Institute for Public Policy Research warned that if the Government accepted the proposals and went ahead with the policy, ‘it is likely to be challenged in the courts’.

[Iani]

Someone from Taiwan once said, don't listen to what the (Mainland) Chinese government says - watch what they do.
In public they are all guns blazing about Taiwan, military exercises, threats of invasion etc.
In reality, but they don't shout about it, they've opened more direct air routes, opened trade agreements, sent them pandas etc.

The conclusion is that China doesn't really hate Taiwan, but either secretly wants the status quo, or wants peaceful reunion.

Same applies to this government. David Cameron might pretend to be a tory, but is really a liberal. It's not the first time - Edward Heath was the same, and Tony Blair was almost the same, except he at least was honest about being a closet tory.

David Cameron, one thing he is not, is someone's fool. Take this proposal, in public you can imagine he will be for it, as cutting down immigration is something the public likes. In private I would guess he would be thinking it's a good idea, but probably the wrong answer to the problem. In reality - well, as I said before, governments are not stupid. I have experience of local government (Don't ask - really, just don't ask!) and just about every time, if your local council makes an unpopular decision, it's because they're between a rock and a hard place. That housing development - if they turn it down, it will go to appeal, the council will lose, it will be taxpayers money.

If there is a good chance this immigration change would go to court, and the decision would go against the government, then they just won't implement it...........yet.

I am not a lawyer, but even I can see holes you could drive a coach, horses, and a team bus full of cheerleaders through on this one.

About the only thing it has going for it, is that it will be mildly popular with some voters, who see abuses of the current system, by...we all know who.

Even this, many of the anti immigration voters won't have even thought of this idea, as they get it from the media and hear more of the so called bogus asylum seekers.

Putting aside every bit of personal interest I may have in if this law is passed or not - looking at this logically, it just doesn't seem like something the government could make stick.

As I said though, be interesting to see what happens if they do.

[DeltaRomeo]

I probably won't make any friends saying this...but
I disagree and cannot sign the petition.
Looking at this objectively and not personally - something has to be done about the ever increasing population of the UK, the increasing cost to funded education, health & benefits and impact on infrastructure such as lack of housing.

The petition states "This policy would privilege wealthy applicants, while discriminating against low-income/unemployed UK citizens. These proposals set out to challenge Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, by making wealth a priority over love and the respect for family life."
Yes, it could be argued that way.. and be manipulated and abused all too easily.It could also be argued that we all have a human right to live wherever we like.
So What would a reasonable alternative be? I don't think it is the intention to discriminate in favour of the wealthy or higher than average earner, but simply to try and effect their ruling that "Settlement applicants must demonstrate they meet all of the immigration rules including that they can be maintained and accommodated without recourse to public funds".
I cannot see an alternative workable solution.
To play devil's advocate: I would also say let's face it, a salary of £25,700 (the higher proposed wage limit) for a family household is not a high income and by no means guarantees an immigrant will not make a claim on some kind of state funded provision.
I also agree with Graham, it is discriminatory, one size fits all. Having said that... any policy that is brought in will discriminate against some group.
I really do appreciate the proposals are causing worry and concern to members and hope that if brought in they do not impact on your own circumstances too greatly. I too am hoping that my partner will get a visit visa within the next couple of months and if that goes well, later a fiancee or spousal visa. But I still feel that some kind of restriction needs to be effected.
Personally, I think that MAC (Migration Advisory Committee) looks in the wrong direction and something has to be done about the numbers of eastern EU migrants. However non EU applications are an easier target.
A couple of interesting documents I have come across are:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14668726

"and that's why this plentiful of supply of cheap and mobile Eastern European labour is a headache for ministers. Their continued arrival, combined with the current falls in the numbers of all people emigrating, mean the government has to look elsewhere to hit the net migration target".

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd...ions_aug11.pdf an excerpt of which is:
NINo (National Insirance Number) registrations to adult overseas nationals entering the UK, top 20 countries for 2010/11

Rank* Country Total (thousands) % Difference to 2009/10
1▲ Poland 81.18 16%
2▼ India 74.41 -1%
3▲ Pakistan 41.24 80%
4▼ Republic of Lithuania 40.84 74%
5▼ Republic of Latvia 27.26 18%
6▲ Spain 24.37 85%
7▲ France 22.55 37%
8▲ Italy 22.10 53%
9▼ Romania 22.00 24%
10▼ Nigeria 17.84 10%
11▲ China Peoples Republic 17.12 42%
12▲ Republic of Ireland 16.13 56%
13▼ Australia 15.85 18%
14▲ Hungary 15.65 36%
15▲ Sri Lanka 14.18 80%
16▼ Bulgaria 13.94 11%
17▲ Portugal 13.88 41%
18▼ Bangladesh 13.84 -35%
19▼ Germany 13.24 25%
20▼ Slovak Republic 11.67 -12%

[grahamw48]

Thanks for the constructive responses above.

I am basically 'anti-immigration', as I suspect are the majority of the population of this country.

I also agree that over-population is becoming a major problem both in this country and throughout the world.

Personally I have only produced one offspring, so I've tried to keep my personal expansion to a minimum.

It is the poor focussing of this type of proposed legislation that is infuriating. The government KNOW where the 'problem' immigrants are coming from, and I'm pretty damned certain that doesn't include many on visas from the Philippines. Result, a scatter-gun approach which is bound to create hardship and resentment.

Spouses are permitted to WORK, so the income side of things is still a red herring.
Just disallow benefits for a minimum of 5 years to anyone coming into the country from outside the EU (even better coming from the EU too, but we know that isn't going to happen)

Simple.

[Iani]

I think the idea of "no benefits for x number of years" is not only a good idea, but would be an awful lot easier than this other suggestion.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple - allegedly.

So maybe the idea has some merits, but I can still see this is full of holes. Oh well, time will tell

[imagine]

Thanks for the constructive responses above.

I am basically 'anti-immigration', as I suspect are the majority of the population of this country.

I also agree that over-population is becoming a major problem both in this country and throughout the world.

Personally I have only produced one offspring, so I've tried to keep my personal expansion to a minimum.

It is the poor focussing of this type of proposed legislation that is infuriating. The government KNOW where the 'problem' immigrants are coming from, and I'm pretty damned certain that doesn't include many on visas from the Philippines. Result, a scatter-gun approach which is bound to create hardship and resentment.

Spouses are permitted to WORK, so the income side of things is still a red herring.
Just disallow benefits for a minimum of 5 years to anyone coming into the country from outside the EU (even better coming from the EU too, but we know that isn't going to happen)

Simple.

im in agreement with you there, thats a sensible and workable solution

your in the wrong job

[imagine]

come on Deltaromeo what kind of real world are you from,

To play devil's advocate: I would also say let's face it, a salary of £25,700 (the higher proposed wage limit) for a family household is not a high income ,

how many people get that kind of wage in a year , iv never seen it in my life or any friends i know, unless there working offshore , not a high income indeed, give me a job at that wage

[grahamw48]

im in agreement with you there, thats a sensible and workable solution

your in the wrong job

Well I DID used to work for the Unemployment Benefit Office...as it was called then.

Having been self-employed and generating my own income for at least 30 years also gives me a slightly different perspective on society's parasites.

[DeltaRomeo]

Yes point taken 'imagine', I apologise for any insult, although I stand by my comment.. for someone wishing to support a spouse and / or family from abroad I do not think it unreasonable to suggest a minimum salary, whatever the amount - it is designed to alleviate the drain on the state.
I would add that yes.. I do know the real world and am painfully familiar with poverty and hardship, I raised my eldest 2 children from babies to adulthood as a single parent, so I am aware of the struggle. I wouldn't have considered a relationship when I was living in those circumstances though.

[stevie c]

Come on for heavens sake you cant put a price on genuine true love & the right to a family life whatever figures are being quoted is totally out of order imo

Deltaromeo you say you wouldnt of considered a relationship if you were in those circumstances but surely love conquers all whatever the circumstances are if anyone trully loves there partner they will move heaven & earth to make a family life with them i know i certainly did

[Iani]

Nah DeltaRomeo, no "insult" is taken, and anyway, you're from Oxfordshire? Good chance there are more opportunities for higher wages around there, but in my area, it would be the exception rather than the norm.
However, the cost of living here is way cheaper than in the London area. Yes food is the same price wherever, but accommodation, both to buy and rent - odds on we have more disposable incomes around here than many in London and the Home Counties.
To have the same standard of living I have here, I think I'd have to double my wage, AND be prepared to commute for a long time.

We have the most incredible countryside in walking distance, great schools, weirdly perhaps people talk to each other as neighbours - but less "cultural" stuff, and it's definitely more grey and cold.
Put it this way, I keep thinking of relocating, but there are plus and minus points.

Rambling on huh

[Tawi2]

We could put another spin on it,view it from a different angle,if I truly,hark that word,TRULY loved someone and she couldnt come here,well if the mountain wont come to mohammed............

[Terpe]

I think the idea of "no benefits for x number of years" is not only a good idea, but would be an awful lot easier than this other suggestion.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple - allegedly.

So maybe the idea has some merits, but I can still see this is full of holes. Oh well, time will tell

That is actually already part of the proposals.
Instead of 2 years in UK as spouse before ILR (and able to claim benefits) it is proposed to be 5 years before ILR.

Has anyone actually taken time to read the proposals and the MAC report.

[imagine]

Yes point taken 'imagine', I apologise for any insult, although I stand by my comment.. for someone wishing to support a spouse and / or family from abroad I do not think it unreasonable to suggest a minimum salary, whatever the amount - it is designed to alleviate the drain on the state.
I would add that yes.. I do know the real world and am painfully familiar with poverty and hardship, I raised my eldest 2 children from babies to adulthood as a single parent, so I am aware of the struggle. I wouldn't have considered a relationship when I was living in those circumstances though.

i been there myself single dad to 3 young daughters, and didnt consider a relationship while i was bringing them up,
but to the point it sounds like you think under £25,700 is living in poverty

[stevie c]

We could put another spin on it,view it from a different angle,if I truly,hark that word,TRULY loved someone and she couldnt come here,well if the mountain wont come to mohammed............

Sounds nice to be able to just up sticks & move to the phils but lets face facts if you in the eyes of the goverment are unable to support your spouse here in the uk how can you support her & yourself & other family members in the phils when you have to leave your employment here in the uk. With no job prospects in the phils & limited savings in my eyes you would not be able too stay to long in the phils before having to return home to the uk due to a shortfall in finances.

[Tawi2]

Then its not true love steve,if a woman isnt allowed in her husbands country and they are totally in love then the husband would lower his living expectations and move to hers,one of my mates sadly now deceased did just that,moved to pinas with a few quid and lived with his woman for 4 years I think?Dont think you wouldnt survive,you would be surprised how little most of the planet do get by on to be truthfull True love has no barriers

[imagine]

theres a lot of families on low income can live without support of tax payers funding, its called living within your means,
which hasnt been been put into practice by many for some years now due to being encouraged to live off credit, and many have lost their homes due to this, cars on credit, mortgaged beyond their means , almost everything encouraged to buy on credit,
living on very little is what philippinas are used to,
im all for a set period of not being allowed support,
but i dont support this proposal, those in govermont positions on high income have no idea what a lower income is ,

[grahamw48]

That is actually already part of the proposals.
Instead of 2 years in UK as spouse before ILR (and able to claim benefits) it is proposed to be 5 years before ILR.

Has anyone actually taken time to read the proposals and the MAC report.

That's where I got the 5 years from.

It's mainly the income level that I'm moaning about.

[Terpe]

Then its not true love steve,if a woman isnt allowed in her husbands country and they are totally in love then the husband would lower his living expectations and move to hers,one of my mates sadly now deceased did just that,moved to pinas with a few quid and lived with his woman for 4 years I think?Dont think you wouldnt survive,you would be surprised how little most of the planet do get by on to be truthfull True love has no barriers

I think something like this would make a good thread.

My gut feeling tells me even I could actually survive with almost nothing in some environments (maybe Pinas?).
But I also have a feeling feel that it might be almost impossible in some environments.
(maybe UK?)

Would be interesting to learn the possibilities (just in case)

[Tawi2]

living on very little is what philippinas are used to

Exactly,I have been through affluent times and times of very little,the happiest times with true love transcend money,cash doesnt come into the equation,if I truly loved someone and they couldnt come here then I would up sticks without a moments hesitation,you can and you do survive,we are adaptable,I dont need a large TV and a decent house if I have my soul mate,I know you cant eat love but you really do survive,you adapt.

[stevie c]

I agree tawi that true love has no barriers but lets be practical wherever you live in the world you need some kind of income

Ok if you are retired & have a pension but how about those who are not near to retiring age who have to depend on a working wage or benefits with very limited savings you know as well is i do in the phils there is no goverment help so if you dont have an income you are left helpless & are forced too survive on your own hence why there are so many homeless & poverty stricken families in the phils.

Explain to me how do you survive in the phils with no income & very little savings

[songz777]

Me signed to It caused me much sadness and tears to be honest lats night and my love as well at the thought we never be together. I pray that this does not go through or at least they make a big conession for those who are genuine and can prove their love for their woman. I even thought about moving and living in philly but as you say no jobs very little income, bUT I do not give up hope there will some how be away around it, being a praying man I am asking my God on the behalf all of all of you that this bill is thrown out, 1

[Tawi2]

But I also have a feeling feel that it might be almost impossible in some environments.
(maybe UK?)

The normans called the UK the land of the fat serf because we have an abundance of fertile ground and food around us,you can and would survive in the UK providing you already had the house,meat is all around you,as is fish,some pinoy families survive on one meal a day rice and fish,bit of fruit if they are lucky.

[Tawi2]

I am not crazy steve,some of us are just a little more resourceful than others I guess

[grahamw48]

Hmm...think I'm going to live in the Philippines...again.

[stevie c]

Im not suggesting that you are crazy tawi just that your suggestion is a wee bit crazy.

But im sure that you can explain to me that how wilth no income no employment & little savings you can live in the phils with your wife & or children i would certainly like to know the answer to this.

Oh & how many years would you think possible to live in the phils in this way.

Tawi i certainly am not suggesting that you are crazy as reading many of your previous posts you come across as an itelligent person.