Right to question the decision

[glucose]

hi! I am a new bee here. My friend who bumped this forum told me about it so I joined here after reading quite a few post where I learned a lot from it. I just have some concerns about the decision made by the ECO...I just want to know if the applicant or sponsor has the right to question the decision done by the entry clearance officer and is it ok to mention and make comparison to people who seemed to have the same circumstances yet were given a different decision. For example if Ms. A applied for a visit visa, no property, no business, no kids, no money in the bank was granted and Ms. B with the same circumstances was refused. Is it ok for Ms. B and her sponsor to question the ECO about their decision by mentioning about Ms. A granted visa? and if a visit visa is refused, who should be sending an email to ECM for reconsideration?the sponsor or applicant? Thanks in advance for those who will share their thoughts and opinions about my query.

[Terpe]

Hi there glucose, welcome here.

You've raised a couple of issues really.
One about questioning or challenging the decisions of the ECO, and another issue concerned with using other related cases as supporting evidence.

Yes, the decisions made by the ECO, in many visa categories can be challenged by the applicant.
Whenever a refusal decision has been made against a visa category that allows appeal, the applicant receives full details of the current Appeals Procedure and is advised of how to proceed.

At appeal if you (or your professional advisor) wishes to present examples of other cases of legally upheld challenges that resulted in the refusal being overturned and the appeal allowed, then of course that is normal practice. Commonly called caselaw, and a very important issue.

In those cases where the ECO has full discretion for his decision, such as general visit visa, then no appeal is allowed. Solely from a financial perspective, it's probably not cost effective when compared with the cost of re-applying.
When it comes to a General Visit visa (ie tourist) the ECO makes his decision based on what he feels or believes will be the outcome based on the balance of probabilities as he sees it. I guess under such conditions whatever one ECO believes or not may be somewhat different to another.
That's why it's so important to provide the best application and supporting letter possible.

Hope that helps you a little with your understanding.

Did you have any specific reason to ask that question?

[glucose]

thanks Terpe! but I believed and my partner believed that we had submitted all the necessary documents we needed to submit. My partner believed that he sent a good letter telling them about our relationship and how we got a long for more than a year while I myself sent them a letter explaining all the documents we submitted but the way it showed in their refusal letter they were looking for some proofs which I actually supplied with my application already. My case is somewhat similar to bigmarco's case, we provided everything yet they were looking for it when they actually got it and returned to me intact. So I don't understand, we thought they did not read our letters and see our documents, they just right away jumped into conclusion. That's why we really feel bad about it coz we knew some people who has no much reasons o convince the ECO that they will be back here in the Philippines but was easily given a visa, few of them even met just 1 time for a short period of time while us we have been together for more than a year and we submitted more proofs of our constant regular,daily skype conversations and photos of us together with my family. They didn't focus on our relationship but focus on something else. Our question now is, if u guys think that if we make a Letter of Reconsideration, is it just ok to be pointing to them why others get it easy why us we don't after showing them all the ample documents we believed to have complied their requirements. Who do u think should be making the letter of reconsideration?is it the partner/sponsor or the applicant. We both feel so upset about the decision done on my application, we feel unfairly treated. We want to write them a reconsideration letter but we just wanna make sure that questioning their decision and pointing other people's case would help or jeopardize my application instead of getting visa overturned? your opinions really be much appreciated. thanks

[joebloggs]

for a general visit visa you have limited rights to appeal, in many cases that means no valid right to appeal.

[bigmarco]

Hi Glucose welcome to the forum and I'm sorry to hear about the refusal of your application and I can well imagine how you are feeling at the moment. Can you let us know what type of visa you applied for and also can you let me know the initials of the ECO who refused the application. FYI the initials on my refusal was GD.

[glucose]

Thanks bigmarco. I applied for a visit visa and thought of already answering their grounds of refusal by supplying them what they asked but they seemed to always find faults in my application. What I was wondering was, they are very strict in really making us prove to them how strong or genuine the relationship we have for with our partners and they admitted it to their refusal that they saw a strong emotional tie with me and my partner yet they used it as against me not going back to to the Philippines because of being too emotionally tied with my partner....so rubbish. The officer is A. Tutton...my partner is really very upset to the ECO for having such unfair decision.

[glucose]

bigmarco is it ok to ask for your ym since I cannot still pm u here?

[glucose]

bdw bigmarco, did u mention in your previous post that u are going to send them a Letter of Reconsideration? what happened,were u able to send them already?did u get a reply?

[joebloggs]

Thanks bigmarco. I applied for a visit visa and thought of already answering their grounds of refusal by supplying them what they asked but they seemed to always find faults in my application. What I was wondering was, they are very strict in really making us prove to them how strong or genuine the relationship we have for with our partners and they admitted it to their refusal that they saw a strong emotional tie with me and my partner yet they used it as against me not going back to to the Philippines because of being too emotionally tied with my partner....so rubbish. The officer is A. Tutton...my partner is really very upset to the ECO for having such unfair decision.

thats one of your problems, you've mentioned about your relationship and one of the reasons they've refused you is because of your relationship as they say its a good reason for you not to go back. but if you didnt mention your relationship in your app and they found out, they would refuse you for withholding information. sometimes you can't win.

[hawk]

am sorry for you both on ypur refusel me and my fiancee was refused a visa we had lots papers even members of familey support showed money letters and still they refused so now am going to phil in may to marry then put in for spouse visa with the same paper work we sent in last time good luck

[bigmarco]

bigmarco is it ok to ask for your ym since I cannot still pm u here?

Sorry Glucose but I dont have YM

[glucose]

it's ok bigmarco...were u able to send a Letter of Reconsideration? if so when did u send it? did u hear anything from them when u sent it to them? my partner is preparing a letter to them to somewhat point those documents that they were looking for yet I already submitted with my application but seems like they have not seen them yet returned it to us with the passport. Then he also wanna point it out that no reason for them to refuse me just because we are emotionally close and might end up not wanting to come back when we both emphasize in our separate cover letter that we have future plans together and we will not do anything to jeopardize our future plan of settling in UK, joeloggs is right sometimes we really can't win.

[glucose]

This is the content of my refusal letter:

The Decision

I note that u have been refused 2 visas (visit visa) of the same category as this application. I considered this application on its own merits and examined the documents u have submitted. I have also referred to the previous application. U have failed to submit any new evidence to show that doubts about your intentions were not justified or were unreasonable.

I note that your 2nd was for the same reasons as no new evidence was presented to indicate that your circumstances had changed and the same doubts concerning your intentions existed. I note that with this application that u have now provided a business permit and business registration certificates together with some invoices for the payments made in order to set up the business. However, such documents relate only to the registration of a business name and permission to trade under such name. They are not evidence that the business has actually started to trade or that it has any assets or profitably. U have still provided no evidence of any income u may derive from the business. However, I do note the inclusion of the series of remittance advice slips for payments from your sponsor in the UK with your application. I also note copious amounts of evidence of contact between u and your sponsor which indicate the strong emotional ties between u referred to in your first refusal notice. The evidence u have provided does not appear to answer any of the previous reasons for your refusal. I am satisfied that there has still been no change of the circumstances in the Philippines.
accdng. to the latest estimate in 2009 by the Commission on Filipinos overseas there were some 8,579,378 Filipinos living and working overseas including an estimate of 200, 987 Filipinos in the UK. Of this number in the UK the commission estimated that over 100,000 were irregular migrants defined as those not properly documented or without valid residence or work permits or who are overstaying in the foreign country. I am not satisfied that u are genuinely seeking entry to the UK as a visitor or intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of visit. I am not satisfied that u would not seek to remain in the UK in the capacity if now admitted as a visitor. I am therefore not satisfied that u meet the requirements of Paragraph41(i) and (ii) of the UK Immigration Rules HC395 ( as amended ) I therefore refuse your application.

I have actually sent some cash receipts, trust receipts from the customers of my shop that shows that there was actual trade but I mentioned in my letter also that the income I am getting from my business goes to additional capital by buying more goods to help improve the business since the sponsor has been financially supporting me and my children for over a year. And I also sent a receipt of an assets of my business like computers for business use to record business transaction and other assets like printers, scanner, laminator, show cases where I have displays on it, office table and chairs, receipts of my stocks purchases and picture of the business itself plus the Certification of the Purchase of House and Lot. My bf also submitted a 3 pages letter to support my application, sharing what kind of relationship we have and how much his family wanting to meet me and our future plans of getting married and settling in UK and is afraid to make any move to jeopardize future application. The ECO seems not read or seen the documents they supplied and my letter that explains the documents that I supplied. Yet, for my bf there was no valid reason for the ECO to refuse my application. Sometimes one cannot win the UKBA from refusing visa...there were those no kids, no business, no property and no money in the bank yet was successfully given a visa. There seems to be no proper justice sometimes.

[joebloggs]

but, who you can blame are some of the filipino's who got to the UK and made it more difficult for others to get a visa

accdng. to the latest estimate in 2009 by the Commission on Filipinos overseas there were some 8,579,378 Filipinos living and working overseas including an estimate of 200, 987 Filipinos in the UK. Of this number in the UK the commission estimated that over 100,000 were irregular migrants defined as those not properly documented or without valid residence or work permits or who are overstaying in the foreign country.

the past 2 refusals would have made it more difficult even thou they state each app is made on its own merits, if that was true then why mention the past 2 refusals

sounds like they suspect that you just set the business up as a reason for you to return.

but it is unfair, as some people have had no job, no savings and still were granted a Visit visa, yet some people with business, property and money were refused, sometimes it appears they just refuse people because they had a bad day

[glucose]

right joebloggs! do u think if my partner will write a letter to the ECM and tell him/her how rubbish for them to refused me, pointing more on my business when there are those who are unemployed,no savings and property yet was given a visa. It really hurts my partner so much that he said he just wanted for me to see UK and how's life there because he stated in his letter that I sent with my application that we really have plan on getting married and settling there only that for the meantime I need to visit first. We just can't understand how they came up such rubbish decision. My partner wants to send a letter to ECM then if it won't work then we plan on waiting another few months and reapply again. Anyways, thanks joebloggs

[joebloggs]

no i don't, because you have limited rights to appeal.

Right of Appeal

Refusal of most types of entry clearance application triggers a right of appeal for the applicant. There is, however, no right of appeal for either the applicant or dependants travelling with the applicant in the following cases:

If the application is for a visit to the United Kingdom, other than a family visit. A family visit is a visit to one of the following relatives in the UK:
Applicant`s spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, grandfather, grandmother, grandson, granddaughter, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or first cousin (son or daughter of his uncle or aunt)
The father, mother, brother or sister of the applicant`s spouse;
The spouse of the applicant`s son or daughter;
The applicant`s stepfather, stepmother, stepson, stepdaughter, stepbrother or stepsister; and
A person with whom the applicant has lived as an unmarried couple for at least two of the three years before the day on which his application for entry clearance was made.
If the application is applying to study in the United Kingdom for less than six months.
If the application is applying to study in the United Kingdom but the applicant has not been accepted for any course.
If the application is refused because the applicant does not have an immigration document of a particular kind required under the Immigration Rules
If the application is refused because the applicant does not qualify for entry clearance under the Immigration Rules because of age, nationality or citizenship.
If the application is refused because the applicant is seeking to enter the United Kingdom for a purpose other than one for which entry is permitted in accordance with Immigration Rules.

http://www.lawfirmuk.net/appealoutside_e.html

[glucose]

yeah I know we have limited right to appeal but I read some post before that they tried to send the ECM Letter of Reconsideration and decision was overturned. My partner just want the ECM to know what seems a mistake in making such refusal if it won't be successful then we'll have to wait for several months to reapply again.

[joebloggs]

sorry to tell you, but many people have told you the same, you have little or no chance, move on, get married or apply for a fiancee visa or some other visa.

[glucose]

joebloggs sorry to mention the case of bigmarco here...I don't think applying for fiancee visa or marriage is either the way to be granted a visa.

[joebloggs]

joebloggs sorry to mention the case of bigmarco here...I don't think applying for fiancee visa or marriage is either the way to be granted a visa.

bigmarco is one of a few exceptions, most people on here are granted a spouse or fiancee visa the first time they apply, especially if they send what they are asked and seek guidance from forums like this

[Terpe]

joebloggs sorry to mention the case of bigmarco here...I don't think applying for fiancee visa or marriage is either the way to be granted a visa.

All your visit visa applications were all apparently refused on the same basis.
That being the ECO believed that on the balance of probabilities there were more reasons to overstay in UK than to return to Philippines.

A fiancee visa or spouse visa does not require any such evidence from the applicant.
On the basis of a genuine relationship, the key factors are largely down to the sponsor.

If you want to continue applications for a visit visa, you must make a significant change in your application evidence. I would also strongly suggest to wait at least 3-6 months before making another visit visa application.