'11 Plus'

[Arthur Little]

11,111 posts ... all the 1s!!!!! And my thoughts immediately drifted back to the final topic discussed on last Thursday night's Question Time:

"Does England need more Grammar Schools?"

Now I was under the impression that those - along with the old Secondary Modern establishments - disappeared (for the MOST part) when *Comprehensive Education was introduced during the 1970s.

Simultaneously, here in Scotland, the former Senior and Junior Secondaries were similarly replaced by, well ... ... a more or less identical system using the *same terminology.

One of the panelists - Conservative MP, Anna Soubrey - suitably impressed me, with HER view that creating more Grammar Schools would be like returning to the 'Bad Old Days' when many children of that era - in consequence of their [apparent] "inability to **qualify" for admission to Grammar School - were left feeling "inferior" to their peers (who **did!) at the tender age of eleven.

Having been an 11+ failure, myself, I fully empathise with these sentiments; you felt as if you were "branded for life"! <

Comments please.

[stevewool]

just for all the ones well done a penny for them all would be nice

[lastlid]

The 11 Plus was still taken in Trafford when my daughter was at Junior School. She went to a grammar school and my son does right now. The 11 plus has been replaced in Trafford with their own entrance exam but the grammar system is still in place.

The 11 plus didn't dissapear everywhere. Trafford was one place that retained it.

[lastlid]

Through a querk of the system, I didnt take the 11 plus as I moved from a region that didnt to a region that did, at the wrong time, after the 11 plus had been sat. Just at the time the grammar system was being displaced by the comprehensive system. So I went to the local secondary modern when other kids went to the grammar. A sort of failure without taking the exam!

However I never really felt like a failure. And I don't think the kids at my secondary modern did either. I think that stigma simply washed over us / passed us by. In any case it was possible to achieve, despite going to a secondary modern.

[lastlid]

BTW Congratulations on your milestone Arthur.

[grahamw48]

It is discipline that is lacking in the present school system.

I went to Grammar School (boys only)....glad to say.

When they introduced Comprehensive Education I suppose they were hoping to RAISE standards to nearer those of Grammar Schools.

It didn't happen, certainly as far as standards of behaviour go.
Disruptive kids simply spoil it for everyone, and drag down standards to the lowest common denominator.

It's also ridiculous forcing schools to include children with Autism and other forms of disruptive (and sometimes dangerous) behaviour.

My own son was assaulted in the classroom by one of these kids when he was very young. I was VERY angry about that.

This idea of 'inclusion' is simply impractical and holds back the majority....rather like the over the top health and safety nonsense we all have to put up with because a very few imbeciles have no common sense.

I also think that single sex schools would be better, so that the kids concentrate on their work instead of showing off to each other. Too many of the the girls attending these establishments seem to be turned out acting like promiscuous foul-mouthed little tarts.

[mickcant]

I thought you had gone back to school when I saw the title
Well done on your huge post count
Mick.

[Terpe]

....11,111 posts ... all the 1s!!!!! .....

Remarkable posting record Arthur. Very well done indeed.
And may I say a big thankyou for the time you spend here and the positive note you always add. Thanks!

[lastlid]

He cant reply as it will be 11112

[Terpe]

I have to be honest, I remember feeling at odds with the world when I passed that 11+ exam as all of my friends did not.
I felt I was pushed off to a school I didn't want to be at. I begged my parents to change the school, but they didn't or couldn't.
I remember having a talent for Latin but it didn't help me one bit.
Many of my classmates from Grammar School ended up in the Civil Service.
I went into Engineering, and ended my working life in the Civil Service.
I was lucky enough to enjoy both.
I didn't miss girls at school though. Or did I?

[lastlid]

Nowadays grammars are mixed. Or at least, the ones in Trafford are.

[imagine]

Congrats on all those posts Arthur and Heres to the next 11,111 posts

[imagine]

i went to a secondry modern school, thats right i failed the test
why did i fail, because the junior school failed to teach as did the secondary school that followed,
teaching there was practicaly none existant, i say to maths teacher i dont understand this,, he says,,,, copy off so and so, he knows,

most other lessons, had magazines thrown at us to read while teacher snoozed,

it didnt matter then because there was plenty of work, i left school and got apprentiship in plumbing and heating, while some of my friends just went into labouring on building sites as it paid much more,but i knew eventualy it would pay off for me,
english and history quite good, but was taught by unqualified teachers who got into teaching at a time teachers were needed, and qulifications not required, post war i think
art good,
i did well in english , history, and excelled in art, i put it down to those few good teachers who made learning enjoyable,

[grahamw48]

I can't say I enjoyed school (I went to 9 Primary plus 3 Grammars )...couldn't leave soon enough.

My best subjects were English, Biology and Art (normally top in all three).

I tended to be the class entertainer and show-off, so not much has changed there.

One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't discover that I had a real practical streak, and an interest in Engineering until well after having left full-time education.

[imagine]

i must say though it was great fun being a mixed sex school

[lastlid]

I am a great advocate of a degree of streaming. Having taught since 2005 I have been able to verify that for myself. It is easier to get the facts across to groups of a similar ability than if they are mixed in their abilities. With selection and streaming the pace of the teaching can be manipulated to suit the class in front of you. The pupils / students in that group get the benefit of that. With mixed ability teaching it just is not possible to get the facts across to all in the class at a pace that suits everyone in it. Teaching to the "slowest common denominator" doesn't work for the quicker pupils and vice versa. I know there are some advantages of mixed ability teaching, but very few.

The solution is in how the grammar system is presented. In Trafford, although selection at 11 is in place, Secondary Moderns don't exist anymore. If we can get away from the idea of success and failure and present the grammar schools as a route that suits some but not others and also to have good alternative options for those that aren't suited to grammar schools then segregation at 11 yo can and does work well.

It is my recollection that the grammar schools in Trafford are some of the best schools in the country and not only that the other schools in the borough also do comparitively well. In other words standards can and do rise throughout the borough regardless of school type, purely because of segregation at 11 yo according to suitability. There's no point in putting square pegs in round holes and stuffing, for example, someone who clearly isn't suited to advanced maths through the same academic program as someone who is

Another point of interest, just to bore you rigid is that I went to a secondary modern school and still went on to get a degree at a fairly good university.

[lastlid]

I also think that single sex schools would be better, so that the kids concentrate on their work instead of showing off to each other. Too many of the the girls attending these establishments seem to be turned out acting like promiscuous foul-mouthed little tarts.

Evidently girls perform better when in a single sex environment and what's more do well at subjects that traditionally the boys do best at eg maths and science.

[lastlid]

Arthur. At your prompting, I watched Question Time back on iPlayer (great invention eh). Interesting. My take on it is that many folk, in general, see and say that the UK has gone down the pan. And I think one of those reasons is because of the Comprehensive system. I think the folk sitting around the table didn't really hit on it too precisely but its the stigma associated with perceived failure with the 11 plus selection system that is the problem. Get around that and selection works well.

I noticed one of the men, Sir Simon Jenkins, on the panel said that selection takes place at 13 in the Public / Independent schools. He is wrong and it just goes to show how misinformation can be spewed out on the telly. I think in all of the Public schools in Manchester, at least, the selection takes place at 11. Simon Jenkins and his kids and his parents probably went to Public / Independent school through a selective system. Indeed he did, just checked. LOL. So it is okay for him to go through a selective process for schooling but not for the rest of the country.

23 current Cabinet ministers went through selective education. So did Ed Balls and Tony Blair, for example.

I used to watch Question time a lot as my previous mrs watched it. And I enjoyed it. I always noticed that they never ever delved far enough into any issue to answer any question satisfactorily.

[grahamw48]

Good stuff lastlid.

In West Yorkshire...when I lived there, we also had a third route that boys could choose, and that was 'Technical College'. The courses were of a practical type, aimed at grooming youngsters for future careers in industry. In my opinion, an excellent idea.

Discussion programmes like 'Question Time' I tend to avoid watching for more than a few minutes now that I'm a grumpy old man with strong opinions and a low tolerance threshold. My TV cost £700.

[lastlid]

Discussion programmes like 'Question Time' I tend to avoid watching for more than a few minutes now that I'm a grumpy old man with strong opinions and a low tolerance threshold. My TV cost £700.

Beer glass through the telly....

[grahamw48]

...Wine glass .

I got 6 bottles of Veneto Merlot 2010, FREE from a company last week.

I don't really care for wine...but it's FREE.

[lastlid]

I think Arthur wants to stay on 11,111 forever....

[Arthur Little]

He cant reply as it will be 11112

... because it'll take me another 31/2 years and a further 11,111 posts to reach the *next set of identical digits in chronological sequence, i.e. *22,222 !!

I think Arthur wants to stay on 11,111 forever ....

... ... tempting thought! Time, though, to press on with the next series - leaving only 11,110 more to go - after sending this one!

[lastlid]

Onwards an upwards....

[Arthur Little]

Remarkable posting record Arthur. Very well done indeed.
And may I say a big thankyou for the time you spend here and the positive note you always add. Thanks!

And thank you, Peter ... for your kind words of encouragement.

[grahamw48]

I'll second that Peter.

[Arthur Little]

I'll second that Peter.

also, Graham ...

[Arthur Little]

BTW Congratulations on your milestone Arthur.

Congrats on all those posts Arthur and Heres to the next 11,111 posts

Onwards an upwards....

... NOT forgetting the above congratulatory posts from Stewart & Lastlid.

[Arthur Little]

Indeed ... to ALL who contributed.

[Arthur Little]

Having been an 11+ failure, myself, I fully empathise with these sentiments; you felt as if you were "branded for life"! <

Actually, I eventually managed to "redeem" myself [academically] - in my early 30s - by going to Evening Classes and taking a "clutch" of Scottish Highers - among them, English & History - plus Arithmetic at Ordinary Grade (the approximate equivalents of the former GCE 'A' and 'O' Levels, respectively, South of the Border).

Sadly ... however, by the mid 1970s, *such qualifications were being obtained by a greater number of youngsters than had been the case back in 1961 when I left school. And so, their value diminished ... coinciding with an increase in demand for graduate applicants to fill promoted posts as a greater number of people competed for fewer jobs.

But, if nothing else, it gave me a sense of achievement and much-needed self confidence.