Does anyone know redundancy/employment rights/laws?

[South-east boy]

I had a bit of a shock last Monday when this director came to the showroom and told myself & another staff member that they were closing the showroom with immediate effect and our jobs were at risk of redundancy. He said that they would see if they was anything that they could do to avoid the risk of redundancy and if we could think of any possible solutions. He said from today until the end of the month we would be on 'garden leave'. On Thursday I received a letter saying we had to go up to London this coming Tuesday to discuss the situation and process etc.

Now I have worked for this company which has several branches for 18 1/2 years, but during all that time it has been owned by different companies but the company name has always stayed the same as it's a brand name and well known as being one of the best.

3 1/2 years ago the current owners of the company ran into money problems and it went into administration before a new company bought us and I carried on doing the same job at the same showroom with the same products and brand name. Now I can't remember if we had to sign a new contract or not-if I did, I don't have a copy of it at home, but it could be at work, but as we didn't have much time to sort things out before handing our keys in and leaving, I didn't have time to sort my stuff at work/draws out. For the next year or two after we were bought by the new company, the payslips had the brand name on with the employer name being the new company owners name, then changed to just having the new companies name on.

Now what I'm worried about is that if I am being made redundant, can the new owner company get away with just paying out only 3 years statutory redundancy and 3 weeks notice, instead of 18 years statutory redundancy and 12 weeks notice (which you are due after working for over 12 years)?

On the company website, it has an article with some long-serving employees who had completed 25 years service with the company (brand name) receiving certificates etc from the CEO of the parent company (the new owner company).

Thanks for any help!

[lastlid]

I had a bit of a shock last Monday when this director came to the showroom and told myself & another staff member that they were closing the showroom with immediate effect and our jobs were at risk of redundancy. He said that they would see if they was anything that they could do to avoid the risk of redundancy and if we could think of any possible solutions. He said from today until the end of the month we would be on 'garden leave'. On Thursday I received a letter saying we had to go up to London this coming Tuesday to discuss the situation and process etc.

Now I have worked for this company which has several branches for 18 1/2 years, but during all that time it has been owned by different companies but the company name has always stayed the same as it's a brand name and well known as being one of the best.

3 1/2 years ago the current owners of the company ran into money problems and it went into administration before a new company bought us and I carried on doing the same job at the same showroom with the same products and brand name. Now I can't remember if we had to sign a new contract or not-if I did, I don't have a copy of it at home, but it could be at work, but as we didn't have much time to sort things out before handing our keys in and leaving, I didn't have time to sort my stuff at work/draws out. For the next year or two after we were bought by the new company, the payslips had the brand name on with the employer name being the new company owners name, then changed to just having the new companies name on.

Now what I'm worried about is that if I am being made redundant, can the new owner company get away with just paying out only 3 years statutory redundancy and 3 weeks notice, instead of 18 years statutory redundancy and 12 weeks notice (which you are due after working for over 12 years)?

On the company website, it has an article with some long-serving employees who had completed 25 years service with the company (brand name) receiving certificates etc from the CEO of the parent company (the new owner company).

Thanks for any help!

I was made redundant a couple of years ago. I looked into things quite a lot as you might imagine. Though I have forgotten a bit of it now.

As a starting point try calling ACAS as they are quite helpful and relatively easy to get hold of. And look at their website.

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

I would say, no they cant disregard your earlier years as long as you can prove that you have been in their employ for that length of time. They may try but the bottom line is that at a tribunal it would be shown that they were being fraudulent. They cant slide out of their obligations by changing their name.

18 years continuous service is exactly that.

My previous employer changed their name many times over 30 years. They didn't dare try that one.

I was at one point going to use a solicitor with my case, but I was paid off quite handsomely which was enough to keep me quiet.

[lastlid]

You surely must have some documentation to prove your earlier years of service? Payslips, tax returns, pension plan, mail or anything in fact that establishes that you were employed by them, that far back. 10 year award / 15 year award if any? Also any colleagues in the same position as you who can provide verbal evidence?

[joebloggs]

Basic Guide to TUPE

This guide is based on UK law. It was last updated in June 2011. The purpose of TUPE is to protect employees if the business in which they are employed changes hands. Its effect is to move employee...

http://www.out-law.com/page-448

i had this done to me, worked in the same building, same jobs, tools, hours but we still got redundancy payments, so i wonder if its down to how the company fill in the paper work

your local TUC centre could help to.

[bigmarco]

Here's the ACAS guide on TUPE. It shows what sort of company changes are covered. If your companies transfer is covered then your good for the 18 1/2 years.

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655

[DaveyWallis]

The key here is the company administration.

If the company was bought from the Administrators by a new organisation then your contract of employment starts all over again. TUPE is irrelevant.

Effectively your employment started all over again, TUPE covers business transfers not new starts. All the years you worked prior to that point will be irrelevant.

Your current employer seems to have breached the procedures associated with redundancy, which should follow the same lines as disciplinary action i.e. letter inviting you to a redundancy hearing, discussions, follow up meeting to discuss ideas alternative to redundancy that you may come up with (such as transfer to another branch if they have one), and then a follow up meeting to confirm redundancy.

You could take your employers to IT for such a breach.

As has been advised already, talk to ACAS or a Union rep if you have one.

For the record I employ approx 100 staff and deal with TUPE regularly. Sadly I also have to make people redundant from time to time too.

Andy and Grace

[lastlid]

..........letter inviting you to a redundancy hearing, discussions, follow up meeting to discuss ideas alternative to redundancy that you may come up with (such as transfer to another branch if they have one), and then a follow up meeting to confirm redundancy.

My old employer did follow the above process, SE Boy. This took 1 month, so I effectively had an extra months "employment" as a result and an extra months wages. I recall we had several meetings. I was also allowed to use the company phones and computers / internet and printers to help me find a new job and was allowed "time off" for interviews - not sure if that was obligatory or not.

Fortunately for me I found a new job just some 7 weeks after my last day at work and it came with a pay rise. Hopefully you will land on your feet the same way.

[lastlid]

I have to say that in my case, when my employer changed name then they didnt start all over again. In every case it was simply a case of merging.

[South-east boy]

I have a contract that states that I started working for the company in May 1994.

The key here is the company administration.

If the company was bought from the Administrators by a new organisation then your contract of employment starts all over again. TUPE is irrelevant.

Effectively your employment started all over again, TUPE covers business transfers not new starts. All the years you worked prior to that point will be irrelevant.

That's what I was fearing, but I still work in the same building with the same brand name, doing the same job so I still worked for that company brand name but it's owned by a new company. On the website is has the brand name everywhere, but in small print on he page where it says shworooms are it says the 'brand name' is a division of the 'new company name'. Going by how the CEO of the new company is, I'm pretty sure that they will try and get away with paying us the minimum and all my 18 1/2 years will mean nothing. So they can really wipe of 15 years service and you get nothing for that from anyone?

Your current employer seems to have breached the procedures associated with redundancy, which should follow the same lines as disciplinary action i.e. letter inviting you to a redundancy hearing, discussions, follow up meeting to discuss ideas alternative to redundancy that you may come up with (such as transfer to another branch if they have one), and then a follow up meeting to confirm redundancy.

That's what my meeting up in London tomorrow is about. It wasn't my ideal job and I was looking to move, so if I did get the 18 years statutory redundancy, then at least I'd get a pay-out (and could pay off some bills) and have a while to find a new job, but if not, then basically I'd get next to nothing and would be more interested in staying with the company as I wouldn't have long to find a new job and have to start paying bills with no way to pay them without a job.

[lastlid]

That's what I was fearing, but I still work in the same building with the same brand name, doing the same job so I still worked for that company brand name but it's owned by a new company. On the website is has the brand name everywhere, but in small print on he page where it says shworooms are it says the 'brand name' is a division of the 'new company name'. Going by how the CEO of the new company is, I'm pretty sure that they will try and get away with paying us the minimum and all my 18 1/2 years will mean nothing. So they can really wipe of 15 years service and you get nothing for that from anyone?

It is a good idea to consult a solicitor. One that specialises in Employment Law. Most will give you some free time upfront. You can slip in a few questions and they will often answer them. I managed to get a good 45 minutes with one but had no need to use one in the end. But I managed to find out quite a lot as a result, where I stood etc etc

I have never been a member of a Trade Union so can't help you there.

[bigmarco]

Just go to the meeting and see what they are proposing. Most big companies tend to play by the rules because they don't wish to end up at Employment Tribunals.
Once you've heard what their proposing you will be much better placed to decide your next course of action.
Situations like this really show the benefits of being in a Trades Union. I wish you well.

[joebloggs]

I dont think you need to be a member of a union to go and see someone at a TUC centre.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...0ShCs6YcVgjRbA

[lastlid]

Just go to the meeting and see what they are proposing. Most big companies tend to play by the rules because they don't wish to end up at Employment Tribunals.
Once you've heard what their proposing you will be much better placed to decide your next course of action.
Situations like this really show the benefits of being in a Trades Union. I wish you well.

Thats quite right and when I was laid off I found that out the hard way. There is an oil industry trade union but isn't widely used as traditionally they have had very little clout with the oil companies. Unlike in Norway where oil industry unions are strong.

Few oil workers are members and I never once came across such a thing as a shop steward. Any oil workers that were members tended to hide the fact that they were.

Hence why I went to a solicitor at an early stage.

SE Boy.

Assuming you are a member of a Trade Union then yeah, they should be able to help. But from what you said in your posts I assumed you aren't. Hence the suggestion to chat to a solicitor.

You should learn a lot at your meeting in London. Hopefully all will be clearer.

[andy222]

Sorry to hear about this but private companies will do everything they can to riggle out of a contract. They normally go for the minimum payout. Like as been said if you are in a union they will advise you. All the best. Its a sign of the times mate.

[London_Manila]

Minimum payouts are woeful if you dont have any kind of union backing
Unions do come in handy sometimes dispite what the papers try and tell us
The Daily Mirror did a good article on low paid workers today
Most of these employers are paying peanuts and its an outrage
Eastern europeans are not helping the situation either = they will work for very low rates

[lastlid]

Minimum payouts are woeful if you dont have any kind of union backing
Unions do come in handy sometimes dispite what the papers try and tell us
The Daily Mirror did a good article on low paid workers today
Most of these employers are paying peanuts and its an outrage
Eastern europeans are not helping the situation either = they will work for very low rates

I had significantly more than the minimum (no union) but it was to keep me sweet.

[DaveyWallis]

I have a contract that states that I started working for the company in May 1994.

If that is what your current contract states then you should be fine. If it an old contract then it is irrelevant. I have old contracts of employment from previous employers, it doesn't mean I still work for them.

That's what I was fearing, but I still work in the same building with the same brand name, doing the same job so I still worked for that company brand name but it's owned by a new company. On the website is has the brand name everywhere, but in small print on he page where it says shworooms are it says the 'brand name' is a division of the 'new company name'. Going by how the CEO of the new company is, I'm pretty sure that they will try and get away with paying us the minimum and all my 18 1/2 years will mean nothing. So they can really wipe of 15 years service and you get nothing for that from anyone?

When buying a company from the administrators you could well agree to retain the property and the assets. Again this is irrelevant to your case. The property would almost certainly be run on leasehold so you just agree to continue with the landlord. It would still be the same brand of vehicles, even the brand name would have value if well established and respected - which you say it was.

Buying a company in administration is similar to buying something in the sales. Significantly reduced price and you can pick and choose who you would want to offer employment to. Previous length of service is wiped out.

I myself e-mail insolvency practitioners every now and again hoping to pick up new business on the cheap.

That's what my meeting up in London tomorrow is about. It wasn't my ideal job and I was looking to move, so if I did get the 18 years statutory redundancy, then at least I'd get a pay-out (and could pay off some bills) and have a while to find a new job, but if not, then basically I'd get next to nothing and would be more interested in staying with the company as I wouldn't have long to find a new job and have to start paying bills with no way to pay them without a job.

Length of service aside, if your employer offers you a 'reasonable' alternative position which you then turn down you will not get any payout.

Going back to when your previous employer went into administration, you would have been entitled to a redundancy payout then.

private companies will do everything they can to riggle out of a contract

In my experience most employers that I have worked for have been very fair. Similarly the employers/business owners that I know adhere to the law.There are good and bad employers as there are good and bad employees.

Good luck with your meeting SEB.

Andy and Grace

[South-east boy]

Well, had the meeting today, but frustratingly the HR manager that was meant to have been there, wasn't well so couldn't make it. The director that was there didn't seem to know the exact answers to some of our questions which didn't help, but we found out that there are not any vacancies that we could fill and he thinks out longer periods of service with the company will be honoured. We kind of guessed that they would not be any possible positions and just hope that is correct about the longer periods of service being honoured. That would also mean they will have to pay us 12 weeks period of notice, rather than 3 weeks.

Hope I find another job sooner than later, as then I'd be able to see Viva sooner and plan our future easier.

[RickyR]

Time to move to the Philippines! There are often vacancies for expat supervisors and trainers in the Call Centres. Could be a new opportunity!

[lastlid]

That would also mean they will have to pay us 12 weeks period of notice, rather than 3 weeks.

I seem to recall that's what I got. Its a maximum of 12 weeks, isnt it?

[South-east boy]

I seem to recall that's what I got. Its a maximum of 12 weeks, isnt it?

Yup, it's a maximum of 12 weeks after 12 years working.